Best 5 years start to a career?

[BenchBrawl]

Connor McDavid's performances got me thinking about this topic. Let's ignore try-outs type rookie seasons (say something like 15 games or less).

Can we/you come up with a Top 10 in this category? Assume McDavid goes on to win both the Ross and Hart this season, which is a pretty fair assumption.

My (very) preliminary Top 10, just to get the ball rolling:

1. Wayne Gretzky*
2. Bobby Orr
3. Jean Beliveau**
4. Terry Sawchuk***
5. Mario Lemieux
6. Sidney Crosby
7. Connor McDavid
8. Alex Ovechkin
9. Denis Potvin
10. Maurice Richard****

*Ignore his WHA season (or not, he makes the list regardless, but if you include it he never won the Cup)
**I say his real career started in the 1953-1954 season
***Ignore his 1949-1950 season (played 7 games)
****Ignore his 1942-1943 season (played 16 games)

A few other candidates: Frank Brimsek, Syl Apps, Brett Hull, Jacques Plante (depending which season you ignore), Bobby Hull, Eric Lindros, Henri Richard (playoffs), Dave Keon (playoffs), Raymond Bourque.

Edit: Bobby Clarke, Bryan Trottier, Mike Bossy, Evgeni Malkin.

Edit2: Bill Durnan, Ken Dryden, Patrick Roy. (thanks QPQ)

Any blatant omission?

Comments on my Top 10: Playoffs were a concern. Hence Crosby over McDavid and Ovechkin. Lemieux over Crosby despite having no solid playoff success because of 87 Canada Cup and because he reached a "big-4" peak level in two of his five seasons.

Click to read more...

 

[mrhockey193195]

I don't think he sniffs the top 10, but Dale Hawerchuk had a marvelous first 5 seasons. Peter Stastny as well.

 

[JackSlater]

I don't see a case for Crosby over Ovechkin. Ovechkin was the better player in four of their first five seasons. Bobby Hull probably has the best argument for breaking into the top ten based on peak. Stastny has a decent case for honourable mention if his first five years are only his first NHL years.

 

[Doctor No]

Terry Sawchuk.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I don't see a case for Crosby over Ovechkin. Ovechkin was the better player in four of their first five seasons. Bobby Hull probably has the best argument for breaking into the top ten based on peak. Stastny has a decent case for honourable mention if his first five years are only his first NHL years.

Meh. Both had one season where they particularly separated themselves from the pack, arguably two for Ovechkin, but Crosby had back-to-back runs to the Stanley Cup Finals, including one championship win. He had a Smythe-level run both times.

Ovechkin was good in the playoffs, but failed to go deep.

Edge Crosby.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Terry Sawchuk.

I considered putting him 1st or 2nd too. I can see the point, though hard to beat Gretzky's insane peak, even if Gretzky only sniffed at the cup once in that timeframe. Five straight Harts and Ross.

Edit: Perhaps I overrated Beliveau after all. But Beliveau had five straight excellent playoff runs, including a historical Smythe-level run in 1956. Plus he was by far a better all-around player than every forward on my list.

Maybe I also overrated Bobby Orr, whose first three seasons, while great, were not yet "out of this world". But he does have two of those inside his first five years, + his first Smythe.

Thinking out loud.

 

[Nick Hansen]

I could've sworn I saw a thread on just this particular topic last spring or so.

 

[JackSlater]

Meh. Both had one season where they particularly separated themselves from the pack, arguably two for Ovechkin, but Crosby had back-to-back runs to the Stanley Cup Finals, including one championship win. He had a Smythe-level run both times.

Ovechkin was good in the playoffs, but failed to go deep.

Edge Crosby.

If going on deep playoff runs and winning Stanley Cups were meaningful criteria I'd expect to see Henri Richard somewhere in the top ten. Ovechkin was a strong playoff performer in his three runs in that timeframe. Crosby deserves credit for having two strong runs that were longer but I don't see his case for being ahead of Ovechkin until a few years after 2010.

 

[The Panther]

Has any athlete in any team sport ever had a better first five seasons than Gretzky? Even more so, considering he entered on a merger/expansion team.

For his first five NHL seasons, Gretzky had five MVPs, five scoring titles (four Art Ross), three "Richards" including the two highest of all time, the four highest assist totals of all time, the four highest point totals of all time, three first place finishes, two Cup Final appearances, and the Stanley Cup.

The only sort-of conceivable thing missing is the Conn Smythe trophy, but he certainly could have won that in either 1983 or 1984.

I really can't see any argument for anyone above Wayne for first five years.

Would Terry Sawchuk have an argument as second to Gretzky? Pretty hard to beat that.

 

[BenchBrawl]

If going on deep playoff runs and winning Stanley Cups were meaningful criteria I'd expect to see Henri Richard somewhere in the top ten.

If ?!

Going on deep playoff runs and winning Stanley cups is the objective of the sport.

I did mention Henri Richard in my honorable mentions and possible candidates, but I disagree with your logic here. Even if I value playoffs, it's unclear whether Henri should make the Top 10. There's a difference between valuing playoffs and disregarding regular season.

Ovechkin was a strong playoff performer in his three runs in that timeframe. Crosby deserves credit for having two strong runs that were longer but I don't see his case for being ahead of Ovechkin until a few years after 2010.

His case is being a Top 2 player on back-to-back SC finalists and winning a championship.

I don't see the huge gap you seem to be seeing between Ovechkin and Crosby in the regular season.

Season/Ovechkin/Crosby
2006/106/102
2007/92/120
2008/112/72
2009/110/103
2010/109/109

Looking at those point totals, and even giving a bit more credit to Ovechkin for scoring a ton of goals and being a physical beast, I don't see the insurmountable gap that back-to-back Smythe-level performances couldn't fill and surpass.

Also, in 2007 Crosby obliterated Ovechkin. In 2008, Ovechkin was at 1.37 PPG, Crosby 1.36. It was an injury that stopped Crosby from competing. Injuries happen but it just goes to show that Ovechkin as this super-beast far ahead of Crosby seems like fantasy. True that Ovechkin had better PPG in 2010 though. I'm not disagreeing that Ovechkin was slightly better in the RS. Just saying that two Smythe-level runs is enough to surpass the gap.

As a last note, I hope this thread won't derail into a Crosby vs. Ovechkin debate. I ranked my Top 10 just to get the ball rolling, and granted both Crosby and Ovechkin will be in most people's Top 10, but I'd rather move on from that comparison unless it's in a more global context against other players.

 

[Fantomas]

PPG is not a meaningful metric.

 

[scott clam]

Pavel Bure's got to be up there, even with the injury in year 5.

Also Mike Bossy.

 

[JackSlater]

If ?!

Going on deep playoff runs and winning Stanley cups is the objective of the sport.

I did mention Henri Richard in my honorable mentions and possible candidates, but I disagree with your logic here. Even if I value playoffs, it's unclear whether Henri should make the Top 10. There's a difference between valuing playoffs and disregarding regular season.

His case is being a Top 2 player on back-to-back SC finalists and winning a championship.

I don't see the huge gap you seem to be seeing between Ovechkin and Crosby in the regular season.

Season/Ovechkin/Crosby
2006/106/102
2007/92/120
2008/112/72
2009/110/103
2010/109/109

Looking at those point totals, and even giving a bit more credit to Ovechkin for scoring a ton of goals and being a physical beast, I don't see the insurmountable gap that back-to-back Smythe-level performances couldn't fill and surpass.

Also, in 2007 Crosby obliterated Ovechkin. In 2008, Ovechkin was at 1.37 PPG, Crosby 1.36. It was an injury that stopped Crosby from competing. Injuries happen but it just goes to show that Ovechkin as this super-beast far ahead of Crosby seems like fantasy. True that Ovechkin had better PPG in 2010 though. I'm not disagreeing that Ovechkin was slightly better in the RS. Just saying that two Smythe-level runs is enough to surpass the gap.

As a last note, I hope this thread won't derail into a Crosby vs. Ovechkin debate. I ranked my Top 10 just to get the ball rolling, and granted both Crosby and Ovechkin will be in most people's Top 10, but I'd rather move on from that comparison unless it's in a more global context against other players.

I've bolded the strawmen you set up to support your position. Crosby's team certainly went further than Ovechkin's and he deserves credit for having two great runs. If Ovechkin was dominating the regular season and then sucking in the playoffs I'd be open to Crosby actually being better over that span, but that isn't the case. Ovechkin was better in the early years outside of 2007. That his team happened to win a championship during that time has no bearing on which player was better.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I've bolded the strawmen you set up to support your position. Crosby's team certainly went further than Ovechkin's and he deserves credit for having two great runs. If Ovechkin was dominating the regular season and then sucking in the playoffs I'd be open to Crosby actually being better over that span, but that isn't the case. Ovechkin was better in the early years outside of 2007. That his team happened to win a championship during that time has no bearing on which player was better.

Is it a strawman if this is clearly what you're implying?

I just fundamentally disagree with what I see as your devaluation of Crosby's merit for Pittsburgh going so far. Your last sentence is particularly telling.

Have a nice day, this conversation is over on my side.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Any blatant omission?

Bill Durnan
1944: 1st Team All-Star; Vezina
1945: 1st Team All-Star; Vezina
1946: 1st Team All-Star; Vezina
1947: 1st Team All-Star; Vezina
1948:

Ken Dryden
1971: Conn Smythe
1972: 2nd Team All-Star; Calder
1973: 1st Team All-Star; 1st in SPCT; Vezina
1974:
1976: 1st Team All-Star; Vezina

Patrick Roy
1986: Conn Smythe
1987: Jennings
1988: 2nd Team All-Star; 1st in SPCT; Jennings
1989: 1st Team All-Star; 1st in SPCT; Jennings
1990: 1st Team All-Star; 1st in SPCT

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Op ranks Crosby ahead of OV because "playoffs" but then why is McDavid ahead of OV?

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

If ?!

Going on deep playoff runs and winning Stanley cups is the objective of the sport.

I did mention Henri Richard in my honorable mentions and possible candidates, but I disagree with your logic here. Even if I value playoffs, it's unclear whether Henri should make the Top 10. There's a difference between valuing playoffs and disregarding regular season.



His case is being a Top 2 player on back-to-back SC finalists and winning a championship.

I don't see the huge gap you seem to be seeing between Ovechkin and Crosby in the regular season.

Season/Ovechkin/Crosby
2006/106/102
2007/92/120
2008/112/72
2009/110/103
2010/109/109

Looking at those point totals, and even giving a bit more credit to Ovechkin for scoring a ton of goals and being a physical beast, I don't see the insurmountable gap that back-to-back Smythe-level performances couldn't fill and surpass.

Also, in 2007 Crosby obliterated Ovechkin. In 2008, Ovechkin was at 1.37 PPG, Crosby 1.36. It was an injury that stopped Crosby from competing. Injuries happen but it just goes to show that Ovechkin as this super-beast far ahead of Crosby seems like fantasy. True that Ovechkin had better PPG in 2010 though. I'm not disagreeing that Ovechkin was slightly better in the RS. Just saying that two Smythe-level runs is enough to surpass the gap.

As a last note, I hope this thread won't derail into a Crosby vs. Ovechkin debate. I ranked my Top 10 just to get the ball rolling, and granted both Crosby and Ovechkin will be in most people's Top 10, but I'd rather move on from that comparison unless it's in a more global context against other players.

Just like OV obliterated Crosby in 06, 08, 09 and 10.

2-1 harts, 3-1 Lindsays, 2-1 rockets, 1-0 Calder, 1-1 Ross = "slightly better". Right!

 

[BenchBrawl]

See? This is what I wanted to avoid. From now on I won't respond to any Crosby vs. Ovechkin post. There are other players on my list, and my list was just a (very) preliminary one, to generate discussion at large, and so people can give theirs. Not drive-by-ing me on the most obvious nitpick possible. Not to generate a Ovechkin vs. Crosby debate. If the debate was, I don't know, Béliveau vs. Potvin, it would be less suspicious.

 

[JackSlater]

Is it a strawman if this is clearly what you're implying?

I just fundamentally disagree with what I see as your devaluation of Crosby's merit for Pittsburgh going so far. Your last sentence is particularly telling.

Have a nice day, this conversation is over on my side.

Yes, it is. You exaggerated for effect, which was weak. The last sentence should be obvious to anyone who is assessing players rather than teams. The one season out of five that Crosby was better than Ovechkin didn't have enough of a gap to justify him as the better player, and this is not based on who had what ppg or whose teammates performed better but how well they actually played.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Yes, it is. You exaggerated for effect, which was weak. The last sentence should be obvious to anyone who is assessing players rather than teams. The one season out of five that Crosby was better than Ovechkin didn't have enough of a gap to justify him as the better player, and this is not based on who had what ppg or whose teammates performed better but how well they actually played.

So you accuse me of doing a strawman, then come back with the exact thing you accused me of using as a strawman? That's very bizarre.

Anyway, like I told you already, I think Crosby's back-to-back Smythe-level performances puts him ahead. I don't care that Ovechkin scored 4 more points in 2006 or 7 more points in 2009. It's meaningless to me.

I just responded to another Crosby v. Ovechkin, despite my promise not to do so. I'm gonna go sleep immediately.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Bill Durnan
1944: 1st Team All-Star; Vezina
1945: 1st Team All-Star; Vezina
1946: 1st Team All-Star; Vezina
1947: 1st Team All-Star; Vezina
1948:

Ken Dryden
1971: Conn Smythe
1972: 2nd Team All-Star; Calder
1973: 1st Team All-Star; 1st in SPCT; Vezina
1974:
1976: 1st Team All-Star; Vezina

Patrick Roy
1986: Conn Smythe
1987: Jennings
1988: 2nd Team All-Star; 1st in SPCT; Jennings
1989: 1st Team All-Star; 1st in SPCT; Jennings
1990: 1st Team All-Star; 1st in SPCT

All Montreal goalies too. Not surprised I'd omit goalies. Me and those psychopaths...

Durnan also won 2 SCs in that timeframe.

Dryden looks great here, strong Hart record and 3 SCs.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Between Durnan, Dryden and Roy I'd give the edge to Dryden. He played more games per season than Roy, won 3 championships, two of which weren't with the dynasty, and has a slitghty better Hart record. Both Dryden and Roy faced insane competition for the Hart in those windows. Also for the Smythes 1971 cancels 1986.

I'm not convinced Denis Potvin was better than them, though I feel protective of Potvin because his impact is harder to quantify and it's more difficult for a defenseman to excel right away. The NYIs GA got better real fast with his arrival.

(Edited some part out about Potvin, made a mistake forgetting his rookie season)

 

[JackSlater]

So you accuse me of doing a strawman, then come back with the exact thing you accused me of using as a strawman? That's very bizarre.

Anyway, like I told you already, I think Crosby's back-to-back Smythe-level performances puts him ahead. I don't care that Ovechkin scored 4 more points in 2006 or 7 more points in 2009. It's meaningless to me.

I just responded to another Crosby v. Ovechkin, despite my promise not to do so. I'm gonna go sleep immediately.

I must be misreading this given that you already declared that you weren't replying, but the portion that you have bolded is what I am saying, as opposed to the "huge gap" and "super-beast far ahead" that you were referencing earlier. Ovechkin was the more dynamic and dangerous offensive player over that span who brought more outside of offence as well with his physical play. Neither brought much defensively, at best a negligible edge to Crosby.

 

[The Panther]

I often don't think of Dryden because he was older. He was 24 in his rookie season -- not that 24 is old, but I try to think of players who started at 18 or 19 or 20 as per leading rookies' usual ages.

Good call by someone, above, on Mike Bossy. Five 50-goal seasons, a 147-point season, a 69-goal (50 in 50) season, three Stanley Cups, back-to-back 17-goal playoffs, the Calder Trophy, etc., etc.

If we extended this to first 'six' seasons, I think an argument could be made for Jari Kurri and Paul Coffey in the top 10, but maybe not for first five seasons.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I often don't think of Dryden because he was older. He was 24 in his rookie season -- not that 24 is old, but I try to think of players who started at 18 or 19 or 20 as per leading rookies' usual ages.

Good call by someone, above, on Mike Bossy. Five 50-goal seasons, a 147-point season, a 69-goal (50 in 50) season, three Stanley Cups, back-to-back 17-goal playoffs, the Calder Trophy, etc., etc.

If we extended this to first 'six' seasons, I think an argument could be made for Jari Kurri and Paul Coffey in the top 10, but maybe not for first five seasons.

That's a good point. Béliveau also started later. Would need to adjust depending on the age their contemporaries began their career.