Best 5 years start to a career?

[solidmotion]

peter forsberg deserves a mention

 

[YEM]

Patrick Kane:
1 Calder, 1 Conn Smythe, 2 Cups
playoffs: 71 pts in 74 games

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

if you count 1987 as tikkanen’s first full season, he deserves a mention.

three cups, sixth in playoff points (sandwiched btw kurri and neely), selke placements of 2, 3, 2 and he probably should have won in at least 91, helped gretzky win two cups then shut him down in the playoffs twice, took over from messier as edmonton’s alpha dog in 91, probably the best defensive winger and second best LW in the league over those five years.

 

[VanIslander]

No one has mentioned a certain 6'1 HHOF NHL center (not to mention two incredible young HHOF non-NHLers):

NELS STEWART. "Old Poison"

• Led the NHL in goals and points as a rookie
• Had the most playoff assists in the Stanley Cup victory.
• Won 2 Hart trophies in his first 5 seasons. How many have done that?
• 4 top-5 goal seasons
• 2 top-10 assist seasons

 

[The Panther]

if you count 1987 as tikkanen’s first full season, he deserves a mention.

three cups, sixth in playoff points (sandwiched btw kurri and neely), selke placements of 2, 3, 2 and he probably should have won in at least 91, helped gretzky win two cups then shut him down in the playoffs twice, took over from messier as edmonton’s alpha dog in 91, probably the best defensive winger and second best LW in the league over those five years.

Much as I love Tikkanen -- and I grew up watching and cheering for him -- this Forum has a tendency to over-rate him.

Just looking at his first five seasons (which should include 1985-86, when he played with McSorley on the 4th line), he'd be behind Gretzky, Kurri, Coffey, Messier, Anderson, and possibly Fuhr.

 

[GlitchMarner]

Op ranks Crosby ahead of OV because "playoffs" but then why is McDavid ahead of OV?

I was wondering about this myself. It doesn't seem logically consistent.

If you put heavy emphasis on the RS, I'd say McDavid > Ovechkin > Crosby through five seasons (assuming CMD wins another Ross and his team makes the playoffs this season - that should get him the Hart).

If you put heavy emphasis on the playoffs, then I'd give Crosby the edge over Ovechkin because he did what he did over more games, but I don't see the justification for McDavid as well over Ovechkin in that case (unless you're expecting him to completely dominate in the playoffs in 2020, I guess).

 

[VanIslander]

Much as I love Tikkanen -- and I grew up watching and cheering for him -- this Forum has a tendency to over-rate him.

Just looking at his first five seasons (which should include 1985-86, when he played with McSorley on the 4th line), he'd be behind Gretzky, Kurri, Coffey, Messier, Anderson, and possibly Fuhr.

Er,... his 6th postseason was one of the greatest i've ever seen... but in terms of youthful top-5 seasons,...

He's a bit back.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Er,... his 6th postseason was one of the greatest i've ever seen... but in terms of youthful top-5 seasons,...

He's a bit back.

the OP specified no partial season tryouts. i guess tikkanen's 35 game/8 playoff game '86 season is stretching it.

but yeah, tikkanen doesn't belong in this thread without 1991. should have won the selke imo and was edmonton's best player in the playoffs by far that year. if that counts as his year five, that is quite an exclamation point on those first four years, where he goes from a guy who did the dirty work for gretzky and kurri and made their lives easier, to a legitimate running mate for them, to establishing himself as the best defensive winger in the league, to shutting down late peak two points/game gretzky, to taking over for messiser and still leading edmonton to the third round before the oilers just flat out ran out of gas.

 

[scott clam]

Op ranks Crosby ahead of OV because "playoffs" but then why is McDavid ahead of OV?

If you ignore playoffs, McDavid is ahead of both. And he is still only in his fifth year!

 

[filinski77]

As far as McDavid - Ovi - Sid go:

	Ovechkin	Crosby	McDavid (1st 4 seasons)
Top 10 point finishes	1/2/2/3	1/2/3/6	1/1/2
Top 10 goal finishes	1/1/3/3/4	1	6/6
Top 10 point/gp finishes	1/1/1/5	1/2/3/4/6	1/1/2
Top 10 goal/gp finishes	1/1/1/5/5	2	9/9
Top 10 - Hart	1/1/2/6	1/3/6	1/3/5
Lindsays	3 Wins	1 Win	2 Wins

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Ovechkin is clearly way ahead of Crosby, he lead the league in goals and points/gp for 3 straight seasons and won the Lindsay those 3 straight seasons, he also had a better rookie seasons (4/5 head to head seasons go to Ovi), the playoff difference isn't enough to close this.

McDavid has a great shot at a Ross and Lindsay this year, but it is by no means a lock for him, and even if he does win the Lindsay/Ross/Hart this year: He'd be on par with Ovi for Lindsays, Hart finishes, and point finishes, but WAY behind him in goal finishes.

Ovi is the clear answer here out of those 3.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

If you ignore playoffs, McDavid is ahead of both. And he is still only in his fifth year!

In terms of regular seasons, Crosby is definitely last and not worth mentioning. Assuming McDavid wins the ross, hart, lindsay and 1st AST this season, this is how he stacks up vs OV after 5 seasons

Hart: 2-2
Lindsay: 3-3
Ross: 1-3
Rocket: 2-0
Calder: 1-0
1st AST: 5-4

Pts: 1,2,2,3 vs 1,1,1,2
PPG: 1,1,1,5 vs 1,1,1,2

Goals: 1,1,3,3,4 vs 6,6 (another top 10 this season, let's say 5th)
GPG: 1,1,1,5,5 vs 9,9 (let's say 5th this season)

Hart: 1,1,2,6,22 vs 1,1,3,5

McDavid has 2 extra rosses, OV has 2 extra rockets and a Calder. McDavid has slightly better pt finishes, OV has way better goal finishes. OV has a better hart record. OV did not have a line mate like Draisaitl who was matching him in pts and beating him in goals. OV beat Backstrom by 43pts in 07/08 and 22pts in 08/09, McDavid has nowhere near that separation (we won't even discuss the gap in goals). Also OV was competing against prime Crosby and Malkin while McDavid is competing against.. Kucherov and Draisaitl? Not exactly the same quality of competition. I don't see what puts McDavid ahead.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

As far as McDavid - Ovi - Sid go:

	Ovechkin	Crosby	McDavid (1st 4 seasons)
Top 10 point finishes	1/2/2/3	1/2/3/6	1/1/2
Top 10 goal finishes	1/1/3/3/4	1	6/6
Top 10 point/gp finishes	1/1/1/5	1/2/3/4/6	1/1/2
Top 10 goal/gp finishes	1/1/1/5/5	2	9/9
Top 10 - Hart	1/1/2/6	1/3/6	1/3/5
Lindsays	3 Wins	1 Win	2 Wins

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Ovechkin is clearly way ahead of Crosby, he lead the league in goals and points/gp for 3 straight seasons and won the Lindsay those 3 straight seasons, he also had a better rookie seasons (4/5 head to head seasons go to Ovi), the playoff difference isn't enough to close this.

McDavid has a great shot at a Ross and Lindsay this year, but it is by no means a lock for him, and even if he does win the Lindsay/Ross/Hart this year: He'd be on par with Ovi for Lindsays, Hart finishes, and point finishes, but WAY behind him in goal finishes.

Ovi is the clear answer here out of those 3.

In addition: McDavid has a line mate who is matching him in pts and beating him in goals. Look at the gap OV had over Backstrom. It really isn't a discussion tbh, especially with Crosby.

 

[scott clam]

In terms of regular seasons, Crosby is definitely last and not worth mentioning. Assuming McDavid wins the ross, hart, lindsay and 1st AST this season, this is how he stacks up vs OV after 5 seasons

Hart: 2-2
Lindsay: 3-3
Ross: 1-3
Rocket: 2-0
Calder: 1-0
1st AST: 5-4

Pts: 1,2,2,3 vs 1,1,1,2
PPG: 1,1,1,5 vs 1,1,1,2

Goals: 1,1,3,3,4 vs 6,6 (another top 10 this season, let's say 5th)
GPG: 1,1,1,5,5 vs 9,9 (let's say 5th this season)

Hart: 1,1,2,6,22 vs 1,1,3,5

McDavid has 2 extra rosses, OV has 2 extra rockets and a Calder. McDavid has slightly better pt finishes, OV has way better goal finishes. OV has a better hart record. OV did not have a line mate like Draisaitl who was matching him in pts and beating him in goals. OV beat Backstrom by 43pts in 07/08 and 22pts in 08/09, McDavid has nowhere near that separation (we won't even discuss the gap in goals). Also OV was competing against prime Crosby and Malkin while McDavid is competing against.. Kucherov and Draisaitl? Not exactly the same quality of competition. I don't see what puts McDavid ahead.

The fact that McDavid has 2 Rosses, is blowing the rest of the league away in scoring once again(along with Draisaitl), a near Ross last season, and was robbed of the Hart in 2018. His team was admittedly terrible, but McDavid was far and away the best player that year.

Since joining the league McDavid has 423 points in 316 games, and over this span no one else comes close to his points per game of 1.34. And that is on the upswing.

 

[Peter Sidorkiewicz]

Lundqvist for sure. Elite from year 1.

 

[daver]

I must be misreading this given that you already declared that you weren't replying, but the portion that you have bolded is what I am saying, as opposed to the "huge gap" and "super-beast far ahead" that you were referencing earlier. Ovechkin was the more dynamic and dangerous offensive player over that span who brought more outside of offence as well with his physical play. Neither brought much defensively, at best a negligible edge to Crosby.

There is a difference between being a liability defensively and playing your position responsibly, if not effectively. By year 5 Crosby was an above average defensive player who, unlike OV, was not necessarily used exclusively in an offensive role. I think OV was given the greenlight to cheat in the defensive zone given his explosiveness offensively and there is nothing wrong with that. But when Crosby was matching his offensive production while also contributing defensively, that is notable.

Both players had arguably Top 5 starts to their career. One could give an edge to Crosby given he was almost two years younger than OV although the OP doesn't stipulate taking age into consideration.

I don't see a decisive argument for OV over Crosby and vice versa when all things are considered, notably they are two very different players even though they are forwards. Different styles, strengths, and personalities.

 

[daver]

The fact that McDavid has 2 Rosses, is blowing the rest of the league away in scoring once again(along with Draisaitl), a near Ross last season, and was robbed of the Hart in 2018. His team was admittedly terrible, but McDavid was far and away the best player that year.

Since joining the league McDavid has 423 points in 316 games, and over this span no one else comes close to his points per game of 1.34. And that is on the upswing.

He is close to Crosby's and OV's per game dominance through his first five years. Crosby's playoff performances create a clear edge.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Also OV was competing against prime Crosby and Malkin while McDavid is competing against.. Kucherov and Draisaitl? Not exactly the same quality of competition.

Kucherov scored 128 points last year. Do elaborate.

 

[scott clam]

He is close to Crosby's and OV's per game dominance through his first five years. Crosby's playoff performances create a clear edge.

Overall yes, but as I said earlier if one focuses only on the regular season, McDavid has been the most dominant player. Chalk that up to quality of competition, but among scorers he is peerless. Yeah, Kucherov had more points last year, but under ideal circumstances. The difference in points per game was only 1.56 to 1.49 anyway.

Everything went right for the lightning last year, up until the playoffs. I think it's safe to see that was Kuche's ceiling.

 

[Neutrinos]

I've only just skimmed through the thread, but it seems as though Lindros hasn't been mentioned yet

• Fourth-fastest player in NHL history to score 300 points (210 games) behind Wayne Gretzky (159), Mario Lemieux (186) and Peter Šťastný (186);
• Fourth-fastest player in NHL history to score 400 points (277 games) behind Wayne Gretzky (197), Mario Lemieux (240) and Peter Šťastný (247);
• Fifth-fastest player in NHL history to score 500 points (352 games) behind Wayne Gretzky (234), Mario Lemieux (287), Peter Šťastný (322) and Mike Bossy (349);
• Sixth-fastest player in NHL history to score 600 points (429 games) behind Wayne Gretzky (273), Mario Lemieux (323), Peter Šťastný (394), Mike Bossy (400) and Jari Kurri (419).

 

[VanIslander]

McDavid has had one Hart and was once top 5 in goals (a measly 3rd) in 4+ years.

He has had Oates, Thornton type passing.

Recency bias. Last month's league 1st star. Three times top star of the month over the last four years.

But if his career ended due to injury tomorrow he'd be on the trash pile of history as another footnote.

His arc is top-100 all time. His potential seems to be top 30. Hard to be sure given he is 22 years old and has a lot more to prove. But if you wanna play the stock market, you might bet on 97.

Until then...

Career playoff points:

Gretzky 382
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Crosby 185
.
.
.
.
.
.
McDavid 9

... Go baby go!

 

[BenchBrawl]

McDavid has had one Hart and was once top 5 in goals (a measly 3rd) in 4+ years.

He has had Oates, Thornton type passing.

Recency bias. Last month's league 1st star. Three times top star of the month over the last four years.

But if his career ended due to injury tomorrow he'd ve on the trash pile of history as another footnote.

His arc is top-100 all time. His potential seems to be top 30. Hard to be sure given he is 22 years old and has a lot more to prove. But if you wanna play the stock market, you might bet on 97.

Until then...

Career playoff points:

Gretzky 382
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Crosby 185
.
.
.
.
.
.
McDavid 9

... Go baby go!

I agree. McDavid absolutely has to succeed in the playoffs eventually. That's the burden of being a great player: the greater you are, the most damned you'll be if you gain the reputation of a playoff no-show. Ask Dionne and Thornton.

But as of yet his lack of playoff showing is very forgivable. Both Washington and Pittsburgh had better teams post-lockout. Or at least, they weren't asm uch of a mess organizationally.

 

[BenchBrawl]

To answer the McDavid vs. Ovechkin questions: the ranking format forced a decision out of me. In reality I consider Crosby vs. Ovechkin vs. McDavid in their first five years to be hair-splitting territory. See them as a tier and call it a day.

I chose Mcdavid because he never slowed down. Ovechkin had that sophomore "slump". It's silly but that's what happens when you split hairs.

 

[VanIslander]

I agree. McDavid absolutely has to succeed in the playoffs eventually. That's the burden of being a great player: the greater you are, the most damned you'll be if you gain the reputation of a playoff no-show. Ask Dionne and Thornton.

Jumbo Joe has 133 playoff points, 13 playoff series victories, including a trip to the Stanley Cup finals, and an Olympic gold.

McDavid at 9 playoff points and a single playoff series victory isn't even at the base camp of Everest yet.

 

[daver]

Overall yes, but as I said earlier if one focuses only on the regular season, McDavid has been the most dominant player. Chalk that up to quality of competition, but among scorers he is peerless. Yeah, Kucherov had more points last year, but under ideal circumstances. The difference in points per game was only 1.56 to 1.49 anyway.

Everything went right for the lightning last year, up until the playoffs. I think it's safe to see that was Kuche's ceiling.

Again, he has not been any more dominant than OV or Crosby in their first five years even just looking at the regular season. That OV and Crosby played at the same time shouldn't mean they were less dominant.

 

[scott clam]

Again, he has not been any more dominant than OV or Crosby in their first five years even just looking at the regular season. That OV and Crosby played at the same time shouldn't mean they were less dominant.

Is the same true for Malkin as well?