Benning vs Holland (if you could only pick 1 which would you rather have?)

[David Bruce Banner]

GMing is the ultimate "what have you done for me lately" job.

Look at say, Holland vs. Rutherford. A few years back, Holland was the genius and Rutherford was the dope. Now Rutherford is the genius... although he will be deemed a dope if the Penguins don't make the playoffs.

It could be argued that Benning was put into a no-win situation. It could also be argued that he just made it worse.

Regardless, Holland's run with the Wings showed that he could be a very capable GM given the opportunity. Jim has yet to show anything even close to that. Holland all the way.

 

[tantalum]

Well one thing Yzerman said was important to learn and he learned from Holland is that the GM is not a scout, or capologist etc he is a manager.

 

[Intangibos]

Holland is far superior to Benning, but term plays an important role here

Well one thing Yzerman said was important to learn and he learned from Holland is that the GM is not a scout, or capologist etc he is a manager.

Really like this, makes me warm up to Holland a little bit. I think a GM is there to listen to his scouts and cap guys and make the final decision. Hiring a scout as a GM is very very bizarre. I think Gillis excelled at this type of thing. Gilman for cap, Crawford for scouting. I think Gillis did very little of this kind of stuff on his own, although he would have to be knowledgeable enough to make the right decision based on the information he gets.

I guess there is always hope that Holland's scouts were dinosaurs and he was too much of a dinosaur to recognize that in time. It's important to have a guy running the show without an ego or an agenda to prove himself as a hockey guru. I think identifying talent in scouting and other supporting staff roles is far more important than hockey scouting ability in a manager, AINEC. Though a president can fill that role if your GM can't.

 

[beachcomber]

Move this loser franchise to Seattle.

 

[Jyrki21]

Edit: Sorry, just saw that some of you made this point above. Ah, well.

I'm as anti-Benning as they get, but if Holland is as bad as some of you say (and I don't actually know this, but there are definitely some ugly decisions there), then the real danger is that he still gets his 4-6 year window to make a mark, just as Benning has. If, conversely, Benning sticks around for two more years and then gets replaced by a trustworthy person, you actually come out ahead.

So it's not as automatic as it seems here.

 

[PG Canuck]

Move this loser franchise to Seattle.

No...I actually want to like that new Seattle franchise.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Benning....I'd rather keep him short term than be stuck with Holland long term. (It would be 5 years minimum).

 

[2011 still hurts]

Benning....I'd rather keep him short term than be stuck with Holland long term. (It would be 5 years minimum).

One of the few times I agree with you, if only reluctantly.

If things don't vastly improve (at least top 3 in the division) in the next two years Benning will 100% be gone.

However, going all in on Holland this year means he gets a lot more leeway and patience awarded because of his pedigree, but there's also the point that we have THE worst in Benning, how bad could a more perceptive, refreshed Holland really be?

If im thinking short term, commit to Holland. Long term I think we should stand pat and wait for better options in 2 years.

With all that said, not committing to either and signing Gilman for a few years would be much more ideal.

 

[VanJack]

I'd actually prefer to swap out Linden for Holland, rather than Benning.....a compromise solution would be appoint a guy like Holland as VP of hockey operations reporting directly to ownership.....keep Benning as the GM, and send Trev back to his fitness studios and bike-a-thons....then everybody is happy.

 

[infinitemile]

honestly shocked yall are picking Holland. There's something to be said for the evil you know rather than the evil you don't. And from the little I've looked into Holland as a modern GM, he is so out of touch with how the NHL works that honestly I'd rather have Benning. And I think I've made it clear my opinions on Benning. Holland has some infamous quotes such as "I don't think the fans want a rebuild" and "a rebuild won't work and it'll take 10-15 years". FML.

 

[2011 still hurts]

I think maybe we can refine the question a bit:

Benning for 2 years vs Holland for 5-6? It's difficult, but the safer pick might be Benning here considering our situation.

Benning for 5-6 vs Holland for 5-6? Holland.

 

[racerjoe]

If we are adding in time to make this closer... then I would still say Holland... When we fired him, Linden surely wouldn't survive that, and in 5-6 years maybe Aqua would have to sell the team too.

 

[someguy44]

Why is there no option for "A sack of potatoes"?

 

[F A N]

I voted for Benning. But it's rather close.

There's a part of me who thinks that Holland can be like Rutherford and shed the dinosaur label upon moving to a new team. I also think that Holland would not replace Brackett and would be completely hands off and allow Brackett to run the draft. But I don't see the upgrade. At least Linden and Benning have been willing preach patience. Holland? If you think he believes in rebuilding the way many posters here think the Canucks should have done back when Linden and Benning were hired, you should learn more about Holland.

While Benning did go out and sign Eriksson, he's actually been rather cautious in dolling out long term commitments. Holland on the other hand...

Holland without a doubt.

Holland has gained a reputation as one of the most successful General Managers in the NHL. Under his leadership as GM the Red Wings have won the Central Division ten times, the regular-season Conference title five times, the Presidents' Trophy four times, and the Stanley Cup three times, and won more regular-season games (789) and postseason games (118) than any other NHL team

This is one reason why ownership would choose Holland. Holland has been living by his reputation. He's obviously accomplished and respected, but what has he been doing since the second lockout? When Jim Nill left, who did Holland replace him with? People complain about "old boys club" hirings should look at Detroit's front office and scouting staff.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

If Holland is hired ......Cant wait to to see all the current anti-managements become" pro- Kenny Holland" next season (because that is precisely what y'all just voted for) ...Be careful what you wish for....Think about it.. ( or maybe check out HF Red Wings first)....

This fanbase won't get it what deserves...

 

[Burke's Evil Spirit]

Seriously, Ken Holland's biggest flaw is that he got a bit too attached to veterans and overpaid them. Whatever, bring in a capologist with him (Gilman?) and it'll be fine.

Holland won't:
- Fixate over meat and potatoes
- Invent the concept of an "age gap" and decide that's the most important need to fill
- Obsess on and on about culture
- Realize only two years ago that the game had become faster and deal with it by acquiring guys like Eriksson and Gudbranson.
- Fail to acquire a single defenseman of quality through 4 years and 9 pro attempts (Sbisa, Pedan, Clendening, Bartkowski, Larsen, Gudbranson, Del Zotto, Wiercioch, Holm)
- Blow top-10 picks
- Piss away quality prospects like McCann and Forsling

Is Holland the ideal replacement for Benning? No. Is he light years better? Absolutely.

 

[The Extrapolater]

If there's one reason to hire Holland over Benning, it's Holland doesn't waste draft picks in pointless trades. He instead wastes them reaching at the draft.
The contracts he's handed out recently are severely concerning, trapping the Red Wings in cap jail. There should be relief in any potential Mike Green trade, but not much.
At any rate, Detroit went into the most recent draft with eleven picks (six within the first three rounds), and are poised to enter the coming draft with extra picks, too (with an extra second and third, and whatever return a potential Mike Green trade nets), which in comparison to what Vancouver is entering the coming 2018 draft with is highly enviable.
Holland would be an improvement over Benning by quite a large margin, but the salary structure of the Red Wings should be a red flag on simply installing him as the new GM, assuming Benning is not retained by the Canucks, and Holland is not retained by the Red Wings, and Holland has any interest in working for the Canucks should both of those conditions occur.

 

[Yossarian54]

Neither.

But Benning if you force me to make a binary choice. Can't get past the Holland contracts and the statements re: rebuild are exactly what came out of the Benning/Linden regime a couple of years ago.

 

[Horse McHindu]

I’d vote Holland. Although Holland has had a tough go as of late, his past winning track record speaks for itself. His eye for drafting and developing talent is also as good as Benning’s. I’m also sure that Holland can look at the Wings from 2009 onwards, and analyze as to how he would have done things differently.

Lastly - if we’re thinking in terms of restoring the faith in the fan base, it might be a good idea to move on from Benning.......and bring in another GM that has been historically good at drafting and developing players, while also having experience of building a champion.

I like the work Benning has done here, but many fans do not. Even if most fans are unintelligent and cannot see beyond their own two feet, these are the fans that pay for the tickets at the end of the day.......and so you have to cater to them by restoring their faith (I.e. firing someone that many people are unhappy with).

Outside of Holland however, I might be inclined to choose Dean Lombardi.

 

[Intangibos]

His eye for drafting and developing talent is also as good as Benning’s

I think you're setting a pretty high bar here

 

[F A N]

Holland won't:
- Fixate over meat and potatoes
- Obsess on and on about culture
- Realize only two years ago that the game had become faster and deal with it by acquiring guys like Eriksson and Gudbranson.
- Piss away quality prospects like McCann and Forsling

Is Holland the ideal replacement for Benning? No. Is he light years better? Absolutely.

I think you have a skewed vision of Holland vis a vis Benning. How did Benning fixate over meat and potatoes? Meanwhile, the Red Wings certainly paid a lot more attention to Size than Benning did this past draft.

Holland after signing Witkowski:

"He plays tough, he plays hard, he knows how to play the game," general manager Ken Holland said. "It's not only fighting, it's just being able to make the other team know that it could be a tough night and when the other team wants to play a certain way, you've got the ability to respond.

Practically every GM talks about culture. Including Holland.

The Red Wings coach believes that the league is trending towards getting bigger again and as mentioned above, the Red Wings paid attention to size this past draft. And Eriksson is considered a good to very good skater.

Canucks fans here have for years complained about there being no replacement for the Sedins. Did you/do you see the Red Wings replacing Lidstrom, Zetterberg, or Datsyuk?

As for "pissing away quality prospects", Jarnkrok was a pretty good prospect that has turned out into a pretty good player. The list is short because they frankly haven't drafted too many quality prospects to piss away.

 

[Hodgy]

Jesus christ, I can't believe people are actually debating the merits of Benning vs. Holland. Absolutely ridiculous. Losing faith in humanity here.

It's like being given a choice between eating cold spaghetti and meatballs and shards of glass and people are criticizing the spaghetti and meat balls for being cold. Shocking.

 

[Billy Kvcmu]

Why are we comparing a failing JB to one of the most successful GM ever

 

[Verviticus]

i’d rather a lame duck moron that’s getting fired soon than four years of moron

 

[coolboarder]

Holland is past his prime. What has Holland done to show for it? He had opportunities to show his prospect with slow cooking philosophy in AHL and the result is not good. Remember, most of his trades and free agent signing came from pre-cap NHL days in 90's and 2000's with a very wealthy owner. He had Lidstrom and his stars to cover his shortcoming for as long as possible in term of replacing the talents and depth and he has done nothing in last 8-10 years to show for it even with slow-cooking his propsects in AHL. His main win from the late draft were Zetterberg and Datusky and that's all. He never had an all-star goaltender, except for Hasek. Osgood, and Howard looked good under Lidstrom. Wings won only one cup after the Cap were introduced and they never got back to the cup Finals after the defeat by the Pens. He was exposed when his star players retired. What makes you think that he would help this Canucks assembly the talents unless the cap were removed?