Battle of the 16s-Marcel Dionne vs. Bobby Clarke

[Mr Burns]

I think Dionne is underrated among the all-time greats, we never hear his name when we talk about them. But I'd still take Clarke on my team. He was great offensively and defensively and I don't have a problem with the way he played the game especially in the 70's because the guy did everything to win no matter what and that's what I want on my team, winners.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Dionne is probably the 3rd line center on my all-time LA team.

I'm obviously blanking on someone but... Gretzky... ???

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I'm obviously blanking on someone but... Gretzky... ???

i'm assuming he means kopitar, who with his two-way ability and size actually would be a lovely number two center behind gretzky

 

[tarheelhockey]

IMO, the biggest knock on Dionne is how he performed compared to the rest of his roster. In the regular season, he regularly led his team in scoring by huge margins, something that no longer happened in the playoffs.

This reminds me of Andy Bathgate, who had a similar role with the Rangers and experienced similar playoff slumps.

Is it just the natural result of "isolated" stars being systematically targeted during a playoff series? I haven't looked too deeply into this.

 

[tarheelhockey]

i'm assuming he means kopitar, who with his two-way ability and size actually would be a lovely number two center behind gretzky

That was the only other name I could come up with, but there's no way I would rank Kopitar over Dionne. Not in the context of assigning roles on a hockey team, and certainly not in the context of ranking careers.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

That was the only other name I could come up with, but there's no way I would rank Kopitar over Dionne. Not in the context of assigning roles on a hockey team, and certainly not in the context of ranking careers.

one could, however, make an argument for kopitar in the context of a franchise's all-time team if you are ranking service/contributions to the franchise. 14 years vs 12, two cups and twice led the playoffs in scoring vs...

 

[tarheelhockey]

one could, however, make an argument for kopitar in the context of a franchise's all-time team if you are ranking service/contributions to the franchise. 14 years vs 12, two cups and twice led the playoffs in scoring vs...

I mean... in the sense that Adam Graves is on the first line of the NYR team.

There’s really no question which of Dionne and Kopitar is the higher caliber player.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I mean... in the sense that Adam Graves is on the first line of the NYR team.

i don't follow.

adam graves was first line center and leading scorer of the rangers for fourteen years and led them and everyone else in scoring twice en route to the cup?

but anyway, i'll let db answer this for himself. i think what he meant was obvious but i guess not.

 

[tarheelhockey]

i don't follow.

adam graves was first line center and leading scorer of the rangers for fourteen years and led them and everyone else in scoring twice en route to the cup?

but anyway, i'll let db answer this for himself. i think what he meant was obvious but i guess not.

I get the case for Kopitar, but we are talking "team service" versus "being the better hockey player by a large margin". I would understand if Dionne had been a drive-by visitor for the Kings, but the guy played in LA for a decade while being a top-3 center (forward?) in the league most of that time.

If Kopitar leapfrogs him simply on the basis of longevity and playoff accomplishments, how is he not also over Gretzky?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

This reminds me of Andy Bathgate, who had a similar role with the Rangers and experienced similar playoff slumps.

Is it just the natural result of "isolated" stars being systematically targeted during a playoff series? I haven't looked too deeply into this.

Bathgate's record in NY is very similar to Dionne's record, yes.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I wasnt downplaying Clarke, read the post I quoted. the OP inflated both the Hart finishes by counting any year they got any votes as a nominations instead of the typically accepted practice of count years as a finalist or years finishing top 5

OK.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

This reminds me of Andy Bathgate, who had a similar role with the Rangers and experienced similar playoff slumps.

Is it just the natural result of "isolated" stars being systematically targeted during a playoff series? I haven't looked too deeply into this.

I gotta imagine that was a factor. You look at those Kings teams and the plan certainly would scream "shut down Dionne, make someone else beat you"

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

this thread pretends butch goring wasn't dionne's second line center for four years and didn't immediately go on to win cups as someone else's second line center after he left

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

IMO, the biggest knock on Dionne is how he performed compared to the rest of his roster. In the regular season, he regularly led his team in scoring by huge margins, something that no longer happened in the playoffs.

The Kings often made the playoffs with records below .500. So they were almost always playing teams they were overmatched against in the first or second round.

They lost twice in the 2nd round to Don Cherry's Bruins. Then to Roger Neilson's Leafs, Fred Shero's Rangers, Arbour's Islanders and Sather's Oilers. Then Dionne played for the Rangers team that lost to Keenan's Flyers.

In 1981-82 they upset the Oilers and then lost to Vancouver, who went to the finals that year.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

this thread pretends butch goring wasn't dionne's second line center for four years and didn't immediately go on to win cups as someone else's second line center after he left

What's the point?

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

this thread pretends butch goring wasn't dionne's second line center for four years and didn't immediately go on to win cups as someone else's second line center after he left

as a passenger. He finished 8th, 15th and 9th in scoring on the Islanders teams.

and before you say "but Smythe"...his Smythe is a flat out joke. He was 4th in scoring and got outscored by Bossy by 15 points in those playoffs. In fact, Bossy only had 3 fewer goals than Goring had points. Bossy led the league in playoff goals, assists and points. And despite Goring's very good Finals of 7 points, Bossy outscored him there too with 8 points.

 

[Kshahdoo]

If I picked a player for any Soviet team I was a fan of, it'd definitely be Dionne. Because Dionne played hockey, and Clarke... yeah, we saw, what Clarke actually played...

 

[VanIslander]

• Dionne has 2 Lindsay/Pearson trophies, as voted on by NHL players!
• Whereas,... Clarke has only one.
  
• Dionne retired 2nd all time in career points, 1st in NHL points from 1975-1985.
• Whereas,... Clarke is not top-30 in career points.
  
• Dionne won two Lady Byngs (an award often going to skilled players on bad teams who otherwise get little recognition). But Clarke has got a Selke. (Note: a 2-for-1 equivalency here on the face of it.)

The difference?

• Clarke has 3 Hart trophies!
• Whereas Dionne has 3 Hart trophy finalist nods.

And the rub: Dionne played with much less successful teams, yet Clarke was much better defensively.

So, it comes down to two questions:

1. How much of the Flyers multiple championship success do you attribute to Clarke? (He never led the playoffs in points nor won the Conn Smythe, but was the captain.)

2. How much of the Kings failure do you attribute to Dionne? (His team never made even the conference final.)

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

What's the point?

that dionne didn't exactly have nobody on his team?

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

as a passenger. He finished 8th, 15th and 9th in scoring on the Islanders teams.

and before you say "but Smythe"...his Smythe is a flat out joke. He was 4th in scoring and got outscored by Bossy by 15 points in those playoffs. In fact, Bossy only had 3 fewer goals than Goring had points. Bossy led the league in playoff goals, assists and points. And despite Goring's very good Finals of 7 points, Bossy outscored him there too with 8 points.

???

he was 4th in scoring on the 1980 and 1981 teams

i.e., an excellent second line contributor. again, responding to this idea that dionne never had anyone to help him share the scoring load

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

that dionne didn't exactly have nobody on his team?

So having a player that may be one of the best 300 players ever is a big plus?

I would have gone for Dave Taylor or Charlie Simmer before Goring.

 

[VanIslander]

that dionne didn't exactly have nobody on his team?

When Clarke was winning trophies he was among 5 hall of famers.

Dionne played with two, a friggin' goalie (not gonna help score) and a defenseman who left town quickly as a youth.

 

[VanIslander]

Are Warren Moon and Aaron Rodgers really so much less QBs than Joe Montana and Tom Brady just because their teams didn't win multiple championships?

No.

But, consequently, they are less.. "GREAT".

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

So having a player that may be one of the best 300 players ever is a big plus?

I would have gone for Dave Taylor or Charlie Simmer before Goring.

i do believe i was responding to the one line team argument thrown about in the foregoing

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

that dionne didn't exactly have nobody on his team?

except he did. Goring is nothing special nor a HOF'er. And having 1 other person that is better than "sucks" doesn't come close to meaning Dionne had any help