Barry Trotz on Team Culture

[THE Green Man]

People don't mock the idea of establishing a culture, they mock how this regime has gone about trying to establish it.

Trying to establish a culture doesn't give a free pass for woeful mismanagement like trading for useless bums like Gudbranson and Prust, both moves that were made with the goal of developing a good culture. The preaching of culture and accountability has been going on for a while, it's all fluff until you can back it up with results.

If we want to bring up accountability can we please talk about how this organization constantly gives undeserved salary raises and boatloads of ice time to terrible players? Accountability has been nonexistent in this organization for years and that's a problem.

Further to the point accountability apparently only applies with this regime and coaching staff to young developing players. Goldobin while I am not super high on makes one mistake and sees the bench or press box immediately. Meanwhile Gudbransdon continuously missed his assignments in the defensive zone, Pouliot continuously turns the puck over and Eriksson floats his way around the ice with nothing on the stat line yet none of which saw a dip in ice-time until late season. Where is the accountability there? Furthermore, it would be nice (though not expected) for JB to actually admit mistakes he makes and show some accountability - granted he would be able to make a textbook called "NHL GM for Dummies" with that list.

 

[passive voice]

okay

 

[TruKnyte]

 

[krutovsdonut]

Haven't seen you in a while! Good to have you back here posting.

Disagree completely with this though.

How exactly are you trying to craft a point by including the words "winning" "oilers" "lucic" and "culture" all in the same post without seeing how that would immediately blow up? And you're trying to say that the Oilers have too much skill and not enough culture?

thanks!

i am saying the oilers hampered the development of their skilled players by placing insufficient emphasis on the supporting cast. in their defence, the oilers could not easily sign ufas but they could have overpaid to do it. the bottom line is that matt hendricks is not enough to build a culture.

like any other signing there is considerable risk. the canucks threw three character contracts at the wall last season and did ok on 2 out of 3 in the first year. i doubt they bat 50% over the total life of the contracts they signed. which is about the same as a skilled ufa signing.

 

[krutovsdonut]

gaslighting is one of the most obnoxious memes of moderns times. the pernicious idea that anyone who disagrees with you is really trying to manipulate you is what cults tell their members ... to manipulate them.

 

[TruKnyte]

gaslighting is one of the most obnoxious memes of moderns times. the pernicious idea that anyone who disagrees with you is really trying to manipulate you is what cults tell their members ... to manipulate them.

lol

 

[vancityluongo]

thanks!

i am saying the oilers hampered the development of their skilled players by placing insufficient emphasis on the supporting cast. in their defence, the oilers could not easily sign ufas but they could have overpaid to do it. the bottom line is that matt hendricks is not enough to build a culture.

like any other signing there is considerable risk. the canucks threw three character contracts at the wall last season and did ok on 2 out of 3 in the first year. i doubt they bat 50% over the total life of the contracts they signed. which is about the same as a skilled ufa signing.

The Oilers themselves think you need multiple Matt Hendricks'!

Don't disagree that you cannot just name Connor McDavid (or Bo Horvat/Elias Pettersson) captain, check off the "culture" box and call it a day. But I'd argue that a lot of that comes from having a coaching staff with mentors that the players can look up to and lean on for support. The rest comes from yeah, veteran players and other emotional leaders that are actually on the ice.

But you also cannot just ask Connor McDavid to score 120 points and think that's all you need for a team. I think the latter was more of an issue with the Oilers supporting cast than the former. The way this team is built, it will soon become an issue here too IMO.

 

[F A N]

The Oilers themselves think you need multiple Matt Hendricks'!

Don't disagree that you cannot just name Connor McDavid (or Bo Horvat/Elias Pettersson) captain, check off the "culture" box and call it a day. But I'd argue that a lot of that comes from having a coaching staff with mentors that the players can look up to and lean on for support. The rest comes from yeah, veteran players and other emotional leaders that are actually on the ice.

But you also cannot just ask Connor McDavid to score 120 points and think that's all you need for a team. I think the latter was more of an issue with the Oilers supporting cast than the former. The way this team is built, it will soon become an issue here too IMO.

Well we all know that the problem with the Oilers is that Tobias Rieder has 0 goals and missed so many breakaways.

 

[krutovsdonut]

The Oilers themselves think you need multiple Matt Hendricks'!

Don't disagree that you cannot just name Connor McDavid (or Bo Horvat/Elias Pettersson) captain, check off the "culture" box and call it a day. But I'd argue that a lot of that comes from having a coaching staff with mentors that the players can look up to and lean on for support. The rest comes from yeah, veteran players and other emotional leaders that are actually on the ice.

But you also cannot just ask Connor McDavid to score 120 points and think that's all you need for a team. I think the latter was more of an issue with the Oilers supporting cast than the former. The way this team is built, it will soon become an issue here too IMO.

i am thinking back a few draft picks before mcdavid here.

there is undoubtedly a point where the suck drowns out any great coach or character guy veteran for a young player. the character guys also have a shelf life just like a coach if they have no success. plus, for the character guys, their influence declines as their own game declines.

in short, there are lots of variables in play for a strategy that is intangible to begin with. it is easy to see why some folks retreat to a stats only viewpoint to try to impose order on a disordered hockey universe. but to me, that is a mistake. the intangibles to me are what make the game.

 

[MadaCanuckle]

This happened extremely rarely.

Wait...do you mean Trotz did this? Ok, that sounds right.

Green did not.

Exactly, Trotz did it.

 

[geebaan]

gaslighting is one of the most obnoxious memes of moderns times. the pernicious idea that anyone who disagrees with you is really trying to manipulate you is what cults tell their members ... to manipulate them.

Wow that tells me a lot actually.

 

[krutovsdonut]

Wow that tells me a lot actually.

orly. do tell.

 

[xtra]

The arguement has never been against culture; the arguement is about overpaying for crappy culture leaders.

Paying a 4th liner 3 million a year for 13 points is asinine when you can get the same or equivalent leadership from an player making 1.8 million

 

[vancityluongo]

in short, there are lots of variables in play for a strategy that is intangible to begin with. it is easy to see why some folks retreat to a stats only viewpoint to try to impose order on a disordered hockey universe. but to me, that is a mistake. the intangibles to me are what make the game.

I don't think anyone really does that. Nobody is clamouring to replace Alex Biega with Slava Voynov because the latter has a better Corsi.

The premise of what you're saying is undoubtedly true. Culture plays a huge role in the success of any organization, including a professional hockey team.

 

[Motte and Bailey]

People mock it when it is wrongly prioritized.

Skill >>>>> Culture

Skill is useless without culture. See: the Edmonton Oilers. They're very much a group that is the opposite of what Trotz describes but they've had tons of skill over the years.

 

[Krnuckfan]

The arguement has never been against culture; the arguement is about overpaying for crappy culture leaders.

Paying a 4th liner 3 million a year for 13 points is asinine when you can get the same or equivalent leadership from an player making 1.8 million

Moreover, why the hell does this team even need a culture carrier?

The team already has plenty of character players. Horvat, Stecher, Tanev, even edler to an extent are all good leaders who learned from two of the best in the Sedins. What kind of leadership does beagle provide that horvat hasn't been exposed to already?

 

[Motte and Bailey]

Here on HFCanucks, we're watching a rebuilding team trying to establish themselves and their identity. The word "culture" gets used a lot.

Some people mock the idea of culture. But it's important on every team and in every organization that involves a lot of people. Not just sports teams.

My opinion is that many of the critics who dismiss culture and mock the idea of trying to establish it, just don't really understand what it is. Maybe most of the critics are younger people who don't understand it yet.

Here's a quote from Islanders Coach Barry Trotz on what team culture is, after the Islanders went from allowing the most goals last season, to the fewest goals this season, something no other team has done in the last 100 years. They also lost Tavares:

"When you say 'culture change,' it's just a way of doing things," Trotz said. "We talk about accountability in some areas and the way we present ourselves, the way we act, the way we respond to adversity, all those things. That's part of changing the culture. Changing the culture might be instead of when things get a little bit rough in terms of maybe not going a certain way, if you don't have a great culture you fracture and you all go individually in your own direction, when actually you should come together and go in the same direction.
"That's a mindset. That's something day in and day out you force accountability on the guy next to you and he trusts you're going to get your job done."
​

I think what he says is interesting, and his success as a coach backs up the importance of his words.

HockeyNebula

It's mostly that people don't understand culture.

You have people like y2k who literally equate points with culture. They think that because a player scores points, and those points contribute to wins, then that player contributes to a culture of winning. Therefore that player is a good culture carrier. Which is obviously ridiculous and betrays a true understanding of what culture is. I've also seen people use the reasoning that "anyone who's good enough to play in the NHL is a good culture carrier because they had to work hard to get there" which is again another asinine proposition due to all the counterexamples we've seen of talented players being toxic to a team atmosphere.

They then view free agent signings through this flawed lens mix it with "moneypuck" strategy to criticize signings like the Beagle signing. They point to a guy like Nic Dowd and say that he would've been an equally good cultural addition to the team because of having a superior x,y, z on-ice statistic. Which again completely misses the point and equates culture, which is an intangible, with tangible production. I'm not sure if this type of person can be reached because they misunderstand culture so fundamentally without any sign of being willing to learn about what it actually is.

 

[Regress2TheMeme]

Culture is important. But I think it starts with management being on the ball and keeping everyone accountable and earning the respect of the players. Some coaches and executives are good at establishing a winning culture and that's why they're hired again and again. When you have that then you can bring in the right kind of players that will be an ally and drag the rest of the team along no matter what. The Canucks management understand the need for character and leadership but I don't think they're capable of setting the kind of tone that a Lou Lamoriello would. For all the issues people had with the end of Gillis' tenure he did a good job of creating a winning culture in Vancouver by netting Sundin and convincing players to take discounts.

 

[TruKnyte]

"Team culture" is one of those overused catchphrases (along with "veteran leadership and hard on the forecheck") that is used to detract away from what all winning teams have: Players that are actually good and can perform.

The reason teams like the Oilers have been so bad for so long has less to do with "building good culture" and more to do with the lack of scoring depth, serviceable defensemen, and reliable goaltending. Build a roster that has players you don't need to shelter on each line and I can guarantee you that team would have more success than the teams that sign players for so-called intangibles.

 

[TruKnyte]

It's mostly that people don't understand culture.

You have people like y2k who literally equate points with culture. They think that because a player scores points, and those points contribute to wins, then that player contributes to a culture of winning. Therefore that player is a good culture carrier. Which is obviously ridiculous and betrays a true understanding of what culture is. I've also seen people use the reasoning that "anyone who's good enough to play in the NHL is a good culture carrier because they had to work hard to get there" which is again another asinine proposition due to all the counterexamples we've seen of talented players being toxic to a team atmosphere.

They then view free agent signings through this flawed lens mix it with "moneypuck" strategy to criticize signings like the Beagle signing. They point to a guy like Nic Dowd and say that he would've been an equally good cultural addition to the team because of having a superior x,y, z on-ice statistic. Which again completely misses the point and equates culture, which is an intangible, with tangible production. I'm not sure if this type of person can be reached because they misunderstand culture so fundamentally without any sign of being willing to learn about what it actually is.

Give me an example of a team that has good team culture where there aren't players throughout the lineup that can be relied upon consistently to produce. And you sandbag Dowd but which team did better this year, the one that signed Beagle or the one who signed the "money puck" player?

 

[Motte and Bailey]

Give me an example of a team that has good team culture where there aren't players throughout the lineup that can be relied upon consistently to produce. And you sandbag Dowd but which team did better this year, the one that signed Beagle or the one who signed the "money puck" player?

The team that won the cup last year vs. one that finished at the bottom of the standings, but let's look at their records the very next year to see who got the better of a 2 player swap? Nonsense.

 

[justafan22]

That's very cute.

Culture only means something if you have the strength to back it up. It's not a blank check for incompetence.

And accountability is something this organization does not have.

Right now "culture" and "hard working" are being overused here because this team really got nothing else to show for.

Five years, we're one of the most laughably bad teams in the league.

What kind of culture do we have when players like Sutter and Eriksson makes a combined 10 ****ing million a year?

It's like the same stupid thing with the Oilers and justfying shitty player aquisitions for culture's sake.

Culture's fine, but should be secondary to what a player brings.

 

[Balls Mahoney]

Culture is great. You just don't want hapless Pejorative Slurs trying to create it and using it as a meme to justify their idiotic self-defeating decisions.

 

[wavaxa2]

Nothing beats the culture of first-off-the-ice-in-practice Little Things. Dude can party like no other, so the younguns have a lot to learn from that.

 

[xtra]

What makes a team good -

Talent
Depth
Coaching
Culture

For me it’s easily
Talent -50%
Depth -30%
Coaching -15%
Culture -5%

That 5% is not worth overpaying for -end of story