Babcock Interview (Since being hired by Saskatoon) "Something doesn't add up"

[Buds17]

It makes no sense to tank for Matthews with the draft lottery. I don't believe a word Babcock says. Didn't then. Don't now. He has a high opinion of himself. Much higher than reality.

The existence of the draft lottery is why Babcock's "revelation" (the tanking was obvious IMO) shouldn't be a big deal. Finishing last still provides the best odds for 1st overall though even if it isn't a guarantee. I'd say it did make some sense to tank in that situation.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

His point about a coach and a GM needing to be on the same page is pretty accurate. Babcock would have done better if Lou had stayed GM, they both had the same vision for the game. I think the game is moving towards the Keefe/Dubas style but I do worry about the playoffs as they seem to still encourage the Lou/Babcock style.

I'm happy both are gone, but I'd feel a lot more comfortable about the post season if they stopped changing the rules for it. This team is the best mix of both that I've seen, but the injuries during this mini Calgary series show how important that sandpaper aspect is. I don't think we lose either game if just one of Thorton, Muzzin or Simmonds plays.

Hockey has ALWAYS been a different game in playoffs ... why change HISTORY? ... game gets tougher, checking gets tighter, less open ice to skate, and you have to earn every inch of ice ... and refs let players decide games rather then let odd man advantages decide games like they do in regular season ... no one wants to watch a turbo speed playoff game with constant penalties ... it is our history for a hundred years ... it is why playoffs are cherished and why it is hardest trophy to win in pro sports ... everyone knows da game and we need to build a team that can succeed in da playoffs bottom line ... we need 1 more defensive defender and a bigger tougher fast 3rd line centre to play Bergeron straight up

 

[zeke]

It wasn't all awful. The experience was a much different reality than the character assassination by Franzen, Comm, and Chelios. People speak about Babs like everything was bad and he was bad. Jesus. We are still commenting on gossip.

Just so people understand in no way am I saying that Babcock didn't make mistakes.

Yeah it's all a conspiracy by everyone against honorable excellent Mike Babcock.

 

[Stephen]

I think we're talking about two different things. I'm just saying that despite how some of his backers characterize Babs as being in favour of old school tough physical, grindy, hockey he's pretty much the father of turn the other cheek hockey in the modern NHL.

It’s interesting that a lot of modern talking points hinge on puck possession like a recent invention but rewind to Lidstrom and Rafalski regrouping and pitching the puck back and forth and launching the stretch pass was also a popular Detroit play back in 2007-2009 during their heyday.

 

[Rondo Hatton]

Ted Cruz and Richard Kuklinski have a wife and kids.

exactly

Babcock is a bully, probably a narcissist, and maybe very charming and co-operative with people in positions of power or to people he wants something from and treats everyone "beneath him" like garbage and is abusive. Hope he never gets back to the NHL. The game is diminished with these types around. Just as the game improved by not having Cherry around

 

[Joey Hoser]

It wasn't all awful. The experience was a much different reality than the character assassination by Franzen, Comm, and Chelios. People speak about Babs like everything was bad and he was bad. Jesus. We are still commenting on gossip.

Just so people understand in no way am I saying that Babcock didn't make mistakes.

But why do you think all those guys have a problem with Babcock? Is 59-yer-old old-school grit grinding hockey man Chris Chelios part of "cancel culture"? And he likes to attack good people for no reason? Is Franzen bitter because he only won 1 cup playing for Babcock? If Babcock was completely pure and innocent and great, why do so many people have a problem with him? What's their deal? Why don't other coaches get this kind of shit? There must be some motivation here.

 

[Dekes For Days]

The line stacking and ability to produce amazing numbers of our favourite players has been the central gripe surrounding Mike Babcock and it’s only ever boiled down to the lack of ice time portioned to the big guns and whether Matthews should be played with Nylander or Marner.

First off, Babcock's usage of our players held back our team, so while some overemphasize raw points when comparing players, it's misleading to suggest it was merely about seeing "amazing numbers" in our stars. It was about his stubborn, illogical decisions hurting our team overall.

Even within the issue of linemates, it was more about the illogical refusal to play the team's best playmaker and goal-scorer together in any situation, than it was about creating some super line.

But the issues also stretched well beyond that. It's ridiculous to downplay Babcock's incompetence and misconduct by boiling it all down to this one grievance and acting like it was just some internet guy's crazy idea for extra bragging points.

"Babcock’s Son” Zach Hyman is a perfect example of a great complimentary piece who was groomed in a support role but completely ridiculed for the first couple of years.

He wasn't "groomed into" anything. He was forced into a position he wasn't ready for, and people were legitimately frustrated. Hyman working hard to become a better player and more capable of that role now, does not mean Babcock suddenly gets credit for improperly using him previously.

Ask Edmonton and Colorado if drafting McDavid and Mackinnon stabilized their franchises.

Mackinnon wasn't close to a Matthews level talent in his early years, and both teams were missing other pieces that we had.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

exactly

Babcock is a bully, probably a narcissist, and maybe very charming and co-operative with people in positions of power or to people he wants something from and treats everyone "beneath him" like garbage and is abusive. Hope he never gets back to the NHL. The game is diminished with these types around. Just as the game improved by not having Cherry around

You gotta be careful as society changes over time ... we can't be wiping out Rocket's or Howe's records because they were Cherry like guys ... in fact up until 25 years ago hockey was a very similar culture for 75 years ... it has radically changed as society has changed over da last few years ... people can change ... what Shanny was a kid is not what he is today ... same with Keefer ... but we got people in charge that grew up and saw badness in our system and are trying to change it for better ... when you live through things you generally have a greater appreciation for da after effects and can truly appreciate how far long hockey has come ... da game is weeding out most of da old guard now unless of course they open a new leaf

 

[Stephen]

First off, Babcock's usage of our players held back our team, so while some overemphasize raw points when comparing players, it's misleading to suggest it was merely about seeing "amazing numbers" in our stars. It was about his stubborn, illogical decisions hurting our team overall.

Even within the issue of linemates, it was more about the illogical refusal to play the team's best playmaker and goal-scorer together in any situation, than it was about creating some super line.

But the issues also stretched well beyond that. It's ridiculous to downplay Babcock's incompetence and misconduct by boiling it all down to this one grievance and acting like it was just some internet guy's crazy idea for extra bragging points.

He wasn't "groomed into" anything. He was forced into a position he wasn't ready for, and people were legitimately frustrated. Hyman working hard to become a better player and more capable of that role now, does not mean Babcock suddenly gets credit for improperly using him previously.

Mackinnon wasn't close to a Matthews level talent in his early years, and both teams were missing other pieces that we had.

Yes, Babcock’s downfall was his refusal to utilize his core in an optimal way and likely losing the room by the first quarter of the 2019-20 season after failing to take steps forward in the playoffs in 2018 and 2019 against Boston. Nobody is debating that he wasn’t seriously flawed as a coach and a personality and boss and colleague.

But between the start of 2016-17 season when the Leafs began their climb back up the standings till the moment he was fired there was something like 3 years of pretty good hockey and growth, stabilizing the rebuild.

All the while there was constant criticism of not using his young star players on special teams and ice time and line combinations that optimized statistical production.

I rewind to when Uncle Lou was hired and he made the comment that his programs are always about the logo on the front of the jersey and not the name on the back.

My point is this fanbase wants to win, but it doesn’t agree with the Lamoriello statement above. Many Leafs fans want to win a certain way based on glamorous offensive numbers led by our young core. And I don’t think Babcock was ever going to be able to deliver on those terms.

 

[Dekes For Days]

But between the start of 2016-17 season when the Leafs began their climb back up the standings till the moment he was fired there was something like 3 years of pretty good hockey and growth, stabilizing the rebuild.

There was pretty good hockey in spite of Babcock, not because of. You seem to be ignoring all of the countless changes we had in 2016-2017 (and beyond) that led to our climb up from the last place team (that Babcock coached), as well as the countless differences between us and less successful rebuilds, in order to attribute our success to Babcock.

All the while there was constant criticism of not using his young star players on special teams and ice time and line combinations that optimized statistical production.

That optimized THE TEAM.

I rewind to when Uncle Lou was hired and he made the comment that his programs are always about the logo on the front of the jersey and not the name on the back.
My point is this fanbase wants to win, but it doesn’t agree with the Lamoriello statement above.

That's ridiculous and baseless. It's always been about the team first.

Many Leafs fans want to win a certain way based on glamorous offensive numbers led by our young core.

No they don't. They just wanted to WIN. Period. Harnessing the abilities and potential of some of the best young superstars this league has seen in the modern era would have gone a long way towards WINNING.

 

[Stephen]

There was pretty good hockey in spite of Babcock, not because of. You seem to be ignoring all of the countless changes we had in 2016-2017 (and beyond) that led to our climb up from the last place team (that Babcock coached), as well as the countless differences between us and less successful rebuilds, in order to attribute our success to Babcock.

That optimized THE TEAM.

That's ridiculous and baseless. It's always been about the team first.

No they don't. They just wanted to WIN. Period. Harnessing the abilities and potential of some of the best young superstars this league has seen in the modern era would have gone a long way towards WINNING.

I’m not arguing for Babcock because I personally prefer the big numbers and production and star power too, but I don’t think it’s inconceivable that the team could have evolved along more of a program based philosophy as well which is what I think Uncle Lou and Gud Pro Babs had in mind.

I think it raises an interesting philosophical question. If the Leafs could win a guaranteed cup playing like a New York Islanders program, would fans take it, or is a non guaranteed cup pursuit with superstar talent better?

In the end I think his lack of popularity had to do with being stylistically unpopular as much as being unable to get to the next level.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Close the thread. Who cares about that tool.

 

[hotpaws]

I’m not arguing for Babcock because I personally prefer the big numbers and production and star power too, but I don’t think it’s inconceivable that the team could have evolved along more of a program based philosophy as well which is what I think Uncle Lou and Gud Pro Babs had in mind.

I think it raises an interesting philosophical question. If the Leafs could win a guaranteed cup playing like a New York Islanders program, would fans take it, or is a non guaranteed cup pursuit with superstar talent better?

In the end I think his lack of popularity had to do with being stylistically unpopular as much as being unable to get to the next level.

Babs was extremely popular on this board his first 3 years , so much so that if you questioned any of his moves you got attacked by his hoard of supporters .

that changed when Dubas was hired and this board realized that Babs didn't want Dubie to be GM and the two would never be on the same page

 

[frog]

exactly

Babcock is a bully, probably a narcissist, and maybe very charming and co-operative with people in positions of power or to people he wants something from and treats everyone "beneath him" like garbage and is abusive. Hope he never gets back to the NHL. The game is diminished with these types around. Just as the game improved by not having Cherry around

He held the door for us for in the cold for like 5 minutes back when I was working at a hotel so we could get equipment in, the time was like 6am in the morning... No one else could be bothered... Nah he is a good guy

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

so if so many teams were willing to sign him, is it possible that some of the stories out there are over exaggerated? Because I have a hard time believing that if he was such a horrible person why was he so sought after that summer.

Maybe not exaggerated but maybe teams were willing to overlook all of it because of his pedigree. Looking back now, he was overrated as well as an A-hole. Wings fans tried to warn us

 

[Dekes For Days]

I’m not arguing for Babcock because I personally prefer the big numbers and production and star power too, but I don’t think it’s inconceivable that the team could have evolved along more of a program based philosophy as well which is what I think Uncle Lou and Gud Pro Babs had in mind.

Not sure what you mean by "program based philosophy". Lou and Babs did not do anything to really establish an effective "program" here, and the more "collective approach" that the Islanders utilize should only ever be done out of necessity for a lesser-talented team, not out of choice when you have far better options available to you.

I think it raises an interesting philosophical question. If the Leafs could win a guaranteed cup playing like a New York Islanders program, would fans take it, or is a non guaranteed cup pursuit with superstar talent better?

The idea that we have any better shot at the cup playing a Islanders-type style is completely baseless, but to answer the question, there is no reason to think anything other than fans want to win most of all.

In the end I think his lack of popularity had to do with being stylistically unpopular as much as being unable to get to the next level.

It had nothing to do with style, beyond the fact that whatever his "style" was was ineffective and horribly illogical for this team. A coach's job is to get the most out of his team. It is not to stubbornly do whatever they want, no matter what's best for the team, solely because Mike Babcock always bets on Mike Babcock.

 

[ottomaddox]

Yeah it's all a conspiracy by everyone against honorable excellent Mike Babcock.

It is a conspiracy though. There is a major tear down campaign against Babcock as we speak.

 

[ottomaddox]

I could win a Gold Medal coaching that team.

No you couldn't.

Why make such a lame dawg statement like that.

How much coaching experience do you have?

 

[Menzinger]

It is a conspiracy though. There is a major tear down campaign against Babcock as we speak.

The most recent media coverage on him is because he's choosing to do high profile interviews and other folks in the media are reacting to them. If its a conspiracy than Babs is part of it....

 

[nuck]

It certainly looks like he did. Imagine having that kind of arrogance, and hurt your team to show up the GM.

Easy now guys. Gards got hurt on the 25th which was actually TDL day, and Holl got promoted the 28th where Oz then sat. This was a 3rd pairing opportunity which Holl failed to seize, possibly due to sitting so long but he wasn't a top 4 stud by the end of the year, and he was scratching hard to win a job for 19-20. Don't listen to me, read those October 2019 threads from this board and anything to do with the 2019 training camp. He wasn't being held back, he wasn't actually there yet, and then he took a step forward. Not defending Babs here, but Holl won the spot when he was ready to grab it.

 

[saffronleaf]

Babs was extremely popular on this board his first 3 years , so much so that if you questioned any of his moves you got attacked by his hoard of supporters .

that changed when Dubas was hired and this board realized that Babs didn't want Dubie to be GM and the two would never be on the same page

For me that had nothing to do with it. About Jan 2019 I knew Babcuck was not going to get this team past the first round.

 

[zeke]

No you couldn't.

Why make such a lame dawg statement like that.

How much coaching experience do you have?

My deceased grandmother could have coached that team to gold medal.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

The most recent media coverage on him is because he's choosing to do high profile interviews and other folks in the media are reacting to them. If its a conspiracy than Babs is part of it....

Yeah I’d love for Babcock to leave the sports news cycle, but he keeps inserting himself into it with these interviews.

 

[ACC1224]

My deceased grandmother could have coached that team to gold medal.

Why would she be hired for such a high profile job? Easy Gold Medal sounds like a job every Coach would be interested in.

 

[zeke]

Why would she be hired for such a high profile job? Easy Gold Medal sounds like a job every Coach would be interested in.

Yep all politics.