Babcock and Matthews tension?
- Thread starter justafan22
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Yes, Kypreos was likely using the beliefs of other execs (and probably exaggerating their number and opinions) to push his own belief that Hunter should be GM. Hockey is a small community at the NHL level and NHL vets do best by keeping non-NHLers out. Hunter and Kypreos played in the NHL together. They were once even traded for each other.
The best thing for NHL vets is for all the non-playing spots - from coach, GM, trainers, colour commentators etc, etc - to be taken up by former NHL players. The best job security for a lackluster NHL GM is for NHL teams to believe that experience at the NHL level is super duper important.
So, yes when I watched Kypreos say that live at the time, I was a little irked because I wanted Dubas, but I then I realized Kypreos was not talking about people from the Leafs organization saying that, and Kypreos was in general just saying what was best for the pocketbook for himself and his fellow circle of former NHL players involved in the league after their playing days had ended.
I pay little attention to Kypreos when it comes to such things as hockey operations, unless I believe he has an actual source who would be in the know.
LeafsNation75
Registered User
I said this before and I will say it again. If you only focus on the management experience both Dubas and Hunter have at the NHL level only, so you ignore their times in the OHL. Dubas has been in NHL management just a bit longer than Hunter. Remember that Shanahan Dubas was hired in July 2014 and he hired Hunter in October 2014. I realize that's a small sample size, however it's wrong to say Hunter has more management experience than Dubas at the NHL level.
Martin Skoula
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It's ok, HF has convinced us both Matthews and Babcock are overrated so it shouldn't be too hard to replace whichever one of them is about to demand a trade or whatever is supposed to happen.
Iapyi
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Maple Leaf Haters just can't stop obsessing about our team. Keep up the good fight you poor souls. LOL
LeafsNation75
Registered User
It's either please no more Leafs threads on the main boards, stick to the Leafs board. However when a story breaks about possible problems with Matthews and Babcock, no one seems to have a problem posting about it on here.
The Winter Soldier
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I think we know where we stand on this argument, but I want to address this point.
Even if you want to limit your criteria to only 3 years where the Hawks won the cup. An argument I find is totally disingenuous of you. Here are the facts when it comes to Toews playing with Kane.
5 v 5
2014-15.
Toews with Kane 145:09
Toews without Kane 686:46
2013
Toews with Kane 99:49
Toews without Kane 563:55
20o9-2010
Toews with Kane 678:01
Toews without Kane 421:28
Now this is just the Cup winning years.
The last 3 seasons.
2017-18
Toews with Kane 235:15
Toews without Kane 786:19
2016-17
Toews with Kane 345:21
Toews without Kane 746:10
2015-16
Toews with Kane 159:43
Toews without Kane 979:31
So using the same site stats you used. Weird huh? As you can see my position was far more accurate than yours. Toews rarely played with Kane. Whether you want to cite the 3 Cup years where you think 1 outlier year supercedes multiple years. Strange analysis there? But clearly it is not me that is lying here when I said Toews rarely played with Kane. It is your assertion that is closer to a lie with Toews played with Kane a lot. Look above, still think so?
Why does this matter? Again, it ties right into this thread and how Babcock wants to coach this team. To do what he deems as best for the team. As Quennville does with Toews. Matthews may be mad of not playing with certain players, but it is not for him to decide, and Babcock can cite Toews in Chicago to back up his position.
Let me tell you where I stand - which I have made clear from the beginning. You said in your initial post on Toews in this thread: "Since he and Kane rarely played together, and the 3 Cups are the result of this."
I don't care if Kane and Toews rarely play together now as they miss the playoffs. I don't care whether Kane and Toews rarely played together in 2017 when they were swept out of the playoffs. Maybe they did. Maybe they didn't. I don't care. Why should I? Why should anyone care? What is that trying to prove? Chicago sucks when Kane and Toews rarely play together….so other teams should model themselves on that suckiness? Cool.
How about when the team was actually good? When they were winning Cups? What matters and the only thing that matters is whether Kane and Toews played together "rarely" during their three Cup runs - BECAUSE AS YOU SAID "THE 3 CUPS ARE THE RESULT OF THIS."
So, I don't care if Kane and Toews rarely played together during the regular season of those years either. What I care about is whether they rarely played together during those 3 Cups runs.
Did they? No. They played 5v5 together a lot during those runs. And they played together almost constantly on the PP during those runs.
At the same time I know that Datsyuk and Zetterberg rarely played together during their many years of 1st and second round exits under Babcock. But when they won the Cup under Babcock - They played together.
I agree with that - although I wouldn't care if Hunter had much more NHL management experience, because I think that it is irrelevant. Some of the worst NHL GMs have quite a bit of NHL management experience. But for the people who care about NHL experience - of which I consider Kypreos to be one. For the NHL vets. Hunter's experience playing in the NHL is something they care about. They think that it brings something that Dubas can never have because he didn't play at a high level, and got an education.
And how would you know that if it's not in the media (or HF) ?
Did you poll other members of your family ?
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LeafsNation75
Registered User
The example of experience at the management level can also be overrated. For example look at when MLSE hired Brendan Shanahan as the Maple Leafs President and Alternate Governor. A lot of people on here said what experience did he have, since he previously worked as the NHL's Senior Vice President for giving out suspensions. At that same time Vancouver hired Trevor Linden as their President of Hockey Operations. He didn't have any experience at that level, however he seemed to get a free pass from others because of his previous connection to the Canucks having played for them, a former captain and fan favorite. Today I think most people would say Shanahan was the better hire and Linden has been more of a disappointment.
LeafsNation75
Registered User
It might happen next summer but according to this Bob McKenzie thinks Matthews will wait until next summer to sign his contract extension. He doesn't say anything about it being due to any "tension" with Babcock because notice he also included Mitch Marner as possibly doing the same thing and McKenzie is going with a feeling he has. So he's not making some outrageous remark the way John Shannon did.
https://www.tsn.ca/video/mckenzie-i...ant-to-wait-until-next-summer-to-sign~1415103
https://www.tsn.ca/video/mckenzie-i...ant-to-wait-until-next-summer-to-sign~1415103
The Winter Soldier
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Let's be clear here. You said and posted above for all to see they played a lot together 5 v 5. I have shown you factually they indeed did not play a lot together by the larger samples I showed you above using the same site you used. Your sample is from only one season. 2009-10.
Even then, Toews and Kane were apart 40% of the time. For which you claim they played A lot together. One season. I have shown you 5 season's worth of samples where you were not correct.
Including 2 of their Cup winning years, which you now want to solely focus on. You also now are starting to add PP time into the mix for which I never referenced since most of the team's better PP's use their better players so that is a silly argument. BTW The Leafs had the #2 PP proficiency the past 2 seasons. Are you implying the Leafs should change their deployment so Babcock can cater to individual player's stats instead of maintaining the League's best PP on aggregate for the last 2 years?
But back to your point of Toews playing a lot with Kane for their 3 Cups. He rarely played with him 5 v 5 in Cup seasons 2013 and 2014-15. So if this is indeed all you care about while ignoring all the other sample presented to you. You will notice when you claimed I was lying about this. You can see your position was indeed the lie.
5 v 5
2014-15.
Toews with Kane 145:09
Toews without Kane 686:46
2013
Toews with Kane 99:49
Toews without Kane 563:55
20o9-2010
Toews with Kane 678:01
Toews without Kane 421:28
JaegerDice
The mark of my dignity shall scar thy DNA
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Are you a Blackhawks fan?
Cause it's weird to see a non-Blackhawks fan know what the **** they're talking about when it comes to Kane and Toews' deployment.
Good post.
Except everything he posted showed that in all but one winning season, Kane and Toews barely played together?
The Winter Soldier
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I don't think anyone appreciates being called a liar. It's something I do not take lightly. Thanks.
X66
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The actual original comment was that the result of the THREE cups was that Kane and Toews played separately. Which is actually not true, it was only the result of 2 of the cups.
Hopefully the Leafs follow in those footsteps as well.
Matthews and Marner play together for the 1st cup.
They play separately for the 2nd cup.
They play on the PP together for the 3rd cup.
Do they award the Stanley Cup at the end of the regular season, or at the end of the playoffs? Because if you are making the claim that the Cups are the result of the Kane and Toews rarely playing together, then is no reason why one would continue to post only regular season data.
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Let's be clear - because you have continued to post regular season data to support your wrong conclusion that Kane and Toews rarely played together to win the Cups, I am no longer responding to you.
The Winter Soldier
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Let's be clear. We all know why you are no longer responding to the factual stats from 2012-13 and 2014-15 that clearly shows infact Toews and Kane rarely played together 5 v 5 in these cup winning years. Because you know what, they didn't. That's why.
And for people that are wondering how this discussion began? It all has to do with why Matthews and Babcock likely have tension. Beginning with The compliments Babcock showers Toews with and how he he is deployed and never complains.
As Friedman, Kyper and Shannon have all reported. Matthews may want to play with Marner, and or he is not happy with this or his ice time. This despite the Leafs having the best PP on aggregate the past 2 seasons and that Matthews leads all Leafs fwd's with average ice time in the regular season and playoffs this year.
I would disagree that it is the result of 2 cups. Yes, for the first cup Kane and Toews played together a ton. But it was not the case that they rarely played together for the second cup. During the regular season that was the case when they played together 15%, but during the playoffs - when it mattered - they played together 40% of the time 5v5. Hossa, who is considered to have been Toews constant winger, played with Toews 55% of the time. Kane was third most common winger - 1% behind Saad. And they played together almost 100% of the PP time and about 70% of the 4-on-4 time. This was not a case where they played rarely together.
Small steps...
Let them first try to get to a 2nd round.
I have no serious doubts that they will, but it's way too early to talk about a 2nd Cup.
JaegerDice
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5v5, Kane and Toews played together on the same line for 5 games in the 2013 playoffs. Games 4 and 5 of the WCF against the Kings, and games 4, 5 and 6 against the Boston Bruins. Outside of that, they saw some time together late in games while trailing, never particularly frequently. The PP was a non-factor, it's been mediocre to bad for the Blackhawks since Q became coach, and was going at like 11% during that playoff run. Hardly the reason the team won.
In 2015, Kane and Toews played together on the same line for 4.5-5 games. Game 5 (the 2nd half, when they needed to push back after going down 3-0 early), 6 and 7 vs the Ducks, and games 1 and 2 against Tampa Bay. By game 3 of the SCF they were separated again.
I'd recommend the corsica.hockey line combo tool over the naturalstattrick numbers. The former shows when players actually hopped over the boards together as a line. whereas the naturalstattrick numbers are for every single time any two players were together, even if it was a guy getting double shifted late, or what have you:
The GP colomn will show how many games they played together based on like a shift here or there, the TOI demonstrates how many minutes the played together as a legitimate line.
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5v5, Kane and Toews played together on the same line for 5 games in the 2013 playoffs. Games 4 and 5 of the WCF against the Kings, and games 4, 5 and 6 against the Boston Bruins. Outside of that, they saw some time together late in games while trailing, never particularly frequently. The PP was a non-factor, it's been mediocre to bad for the Blackhawks since Q became coach, and was going at like 11% during that playoff run. Hardly the reason the team won.
In 2015, Kane and Toews played together on the same line for 4.5-5 games. Game 5 (the 2nd half, when they needed to push back after going down 3-0 early), 6 and 7 vs the Ducks, and games 1 and 2 against Tampa Bay. By game 3 of the SCF they were separated again.
I'd recommend the corsica.hockey line combo tool over the naturalstattrick numbers. The former shows when players actually played together as a line. whereas the naturalstattrick numbers are for every single time any two players were together, even if it was a guy getting double shifted late, or what have you:
The GP colomn will show how many games they played together based on like a shift here or there, the TOI demonstrates how many minutes the played together as a legitimate line.
Curious to see how he spins this now...
The Winter Soldier
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I'm with you there.
Not only that. But I am curious to see why no one has asked why Matthews is apparently upset with Babcock's deployment of him. Ice time, led Leafs fwds in average ice time in the regular season and playoffs. And the Leafs had the 2nd best PP proficiency 2 years in a row now, which on aggregate makes them with the best PP proficiency in the NHL the past 2 years.
Knowing this. Why is Matthews upset with Babcock? If multiple sources are saying so.
