GDT: AZ Coyotes @ CO Avs TIME: 7PM

[IPreferPi]

When Chipchura is on his game, he is an excellent 4th line center. Easily better than Vitale.

Yeah, no.

 

[XX]

Yeah, no.

Vitale brings nothing. The argument was that he played with crap wingers in Pittsburgh, so he'd obviously be better here. Not the case. He's a possession black hole, can't cycle, and isn't winning faceoffs the way he should be. The PK hasn't improved with him here.

All he brings is that smile of his and some hits. He's not better than an engaged 4th line Chipchura. Dangly, stupid 3rd line Chipchura is a hellspawn of the worst kind. Don't confuse the two.

 

[GiveAFlyingPuck]

When Chipchura is on his game, he is an excellent 4th line center. Easily better than Vitale. The problem is that he almost never flips that switch anymore. He's small potatoes when it comes to attempting a culture change, so he should go.

Speaking of Chip...

 

[IPreferPi]

Vitale brings nothing. The argument was that he played with crap wingers in Pittsburgh, so he'd obviously be better here. Not the case. He's a possession black hole, can't cycle, and isn't winning faceoffs the way he should be. The PK hasn't improved with him here.

All he brings is that smile of his and some hits. He's not better than an engaged 4th line Chipchura. Dangly, stupid 3rd line Chipchura is a hellspawn of the worst kind. Don't confuse the two.

Since when did you start caring about a 4th liners possession numbers? Especially when they're being utilized the way Vitale's been utilized this season.

Frankly you're just grinding that scorched earth axe of yours. Which isn't going to happen.

 

[Matias Maccete]

Since when did you start caring about a 4th liners possession numbers? Especially when they're being utilized the way Vitale's been utilized this season.

Frankly you're just grinding that scorched earth axe of yours. Which isn't going to happen.

That sounds like a weapon from a video game. The scorched earth axe!

 

[XX]

Since when did you start caring about a 4th liners possession numbers? Especially when they're being utilized the way Vitale's been utilized this season.

Frankly you're just grinding that scorched earth axe of yours. Which isn't going to happen.

I have always cared about a bottom 6 that can actually do something with the puck. I have always wanted a 4th line that can be trusted with 11 minutes night ala Hawks versus 7 or 8. And, as we all noticed, great bottom 6 play is what carried this team in years past. That's what got Chipchura his contract.

You don't seem to be debating the point that Vitale isn't all that great. You're just being overly dismissive of criticism aimed at one of your favorite players. He does almost nothing for the team, even relative to the other 'bad' players on this team.

 

[CC96]

Regardless of the rare times that Chip actually plays well, he can't kill penalties, and that's a huge knock against him as a 4th. line center IMO.

 

[IPreferPi]

I have always cared about a bottom 6 that can actually do something with the puck. I have always wanted a 4th line that can be trusted with 11 minutes night ala Hawks versus 7 or 8. And, as we all noticed, great bottom 6 play is what carried this team in years past. That's what got Chipchura his contract.

You don't seem to be debating the point that Vitale isn't all that great. You're just being overly dismissive of criticism aimed at one of your favorite players. He does almost nothing for the team, even relative to the other 'bad' players on this team.

For me, Vitale's possession numbers are fine for a crash and bang energy liner who starts primarily in the defensive zone. He's fast, forechecks and backchecks very effectively, solid along the walls, and has decent setup skills that unfortunately are wasted on wingers who can't finish. The only real disappointment has been his face off numbers, but he's been above .500 after the first month or two when he was at .450. A lot of players have had their numbers fluctuate with the new rules. But Vitale isn't a problem and he's been perfectly fine for his role. And his on ice save % on the PK has been better than Vermette's.

I am being dismissive of criticism when it comes from someone whose outspoken in wanting to indiscriminately napalm this roster to the ground. This is only the first time I'm actually doing it aloud.

 

[XX]

Regardless of the rare times that Chip actually plays well, he can't kill penalties, and that's a huge knock against him as a 4th. line center IMO.

I agree, utility is a concern going forward. I like Condra for that 4th line RW spot. Very responsible defensively and can kill penalties. Ideally, I'd like to keep Vitale around as a locker room/mix it up guy, dump chip, and sign clear upgrades on both.

PKing shouldn't be so vexing to a team made up almost entirely of grit players. It has to be a coaching thing.

 

[XX]

For me, Vitale's possession numbers are fine for a crash and bang energy liner who starts primarily in the defensive zone. He's fast, forechecks and backchecks very effectively, solid along the walls, and has decent setup skills that unfortunately are wasted on wingers who can't finish. The only real disappointment has been his face off numbers, but he's been above .500 after the first month or two when he was at .450. A lot of players have had their numbers fluctuate with the new rules. But Vitale isn't a problem and he's been perfectly fine for his role. And his on ice save % on the PK has been better that Vermette's.

Decent setup skills? What player are you watching? A lot of opinion, not much substance in numbers.

His possession numbers are not fine, even for his role. He went from almost the worst in the league to ******, which is an upgrade of sorts. Chipchura starts in the defensive zone just as much and grades out as better in just about every single way. If you want to chalk that up to having better wingers, fine. That's the Pittsburgh argument all over again. I'm willing to give him another shot with better players. There are worse ways to spend money. Vitale is not a huge eyesore. He's just not above criticism, and he isn't doing so well that he should get a free pass.

I am being dismissive of criticism when it comes from someone whose outspoken in wanting to indiscriminately napalming this roster to the ground.

Indiscriminately? That's both wrong and pretty low of you. I thought you were better than that.

 

[IPreferPi]

Vitale is not a huge eyesore. He's just not above criticism, and he isn't doing so well that he should get a free pass.

I certainly haven't given him a free pass. I've time and time again expressed my disappointment in his FO% drop off. Of course I get frustrated when he can't bury the puck. But honestly I don't worry too much about inconsistent points production from a 4th liner. If any bottom 6er was a consistent offensive producer, they wouldn't be a bottom 6 forward unless it was because of team depth.

And winger quality is something that absolutely needs to be taken into consideration: Chipchura's -1.5 Rel QoT is significantly better than Vitale's -3.0 rel QoT, i.e. Chipchura plays with better possession linemates and more frequently.

Indiscriminately? That's both wrong and pretty low of you. I thought you were better than that.

Hyperbolic, yes. But an honest reaction.

 

[Jakey53]

We are trying to follow a similar path as the much touted Redwings. Difference being we don't have the quality players to help the young ones along and ease their transition. That doens't mean you just bring 'em in all willy nilly and start handing out ice time because the fans want to see 'em play.

You strategically integrate them and that integration is made more difficult by the situation I described above.

Exactly. Most fans want the rookies to beat out the vets because the rookies are the underdogs and the fans feel they will do a better job. Doesn't work that way.

No we don't have the same talent as them but if we're going to claim we're following that system we have to back it up. Earlier in the year someone posted the differences in how Detroit has brought along their youth compared to ours, and if we are following that we're doing a piss poor job. Yes when they first come up you don't want to give them crazy ice time, but you can't give them only sheltered minutes either. Look at rieder and lessio's toi from recent games and how they've played. They've been given more time and are playing very well.

We may be trying to follow the Detroit system, but we did not have the drafting and scouts in place to do as good a job. Detroit takes their time with prospects, and most times when they turn pro they are ready and don't need sheltered minutes as much as if they were rushed into the NHL. The last two years we have done a much better job drafting, and GMDM got the nod from management to spend more on scouting.

 

[Jakey53]

I really wish I saw half the edge that I see among the member here, displayed on the ice by the team. We need to chill, they need get pissed.

LOL. That's what makes it fun.

 

[DesertDawg]

For me, Vitale's possession numbers are fine for a crash and bang energy liner who starts primarily in the defensive zone. He's fast, forechecks and backchecks very effectively, solid along the walls, and has decent setup skills that unfortunately are wasted on wingers who can't finish. The only real disappointment has been his face off numbers, but he's been above .500 after the first month or two when he was at .450. A lot of players have had their numbers fluctuate with the new rules. But Vitale isn't a problem and he's been perfectly fine for his role. And his on ice save % on the PK has been better than Vermette's.

I am being dismissive of criticism when it comes from someone whose outspoken in wanting to indiscriminately napalm this roster to the ground. This is only the first time I'm actually doing it aloud.

letting XX hit a nerve?
I agree about Vitale. It Should be an off-season priority to get Vitale 2-way wings to compliment him. I wonder if Samuelsson could be effective in that role? He is better of right now staying in Portland, but we are talking about starting all over for next season.
The roster has holes in it. trading core pieces seems like the wrong way to do things. IMO, the Coyotes will luck out and acquire contract dumps, do great this draft and sign a free agent or 2! They'll make the playoffs next season as long as the goalies can carry them. We just need to replace the "driftwood".

 

[Jakey53]

letting XX hit a nerve?
I agree about Vitale. It Should be an off-season priority to get Vitale 2-way wings to compliment him. I wonder if Samuelsson could be effective in that role? He is better of right now staying in Portland, but we are talking about starting all over for next season.
The roster has holes in it. trading core pieces seems like the wrong way to do things. IMO, the Coyotes will luck out and acquire contract dumps, do great this draft and sign a free agent or 2! They'll make the playoffs next season as long as the goalies can carry them. We just need to replace the "driftwood".

If we make the playoffs next year, it will be a miracle.

 

[Mosby]

Just a hunch, but I suspect Vitale was playing injured for quite some time before he eventually missed some games and the ailment was dealt with. I think that's the reason for the drop off in his play over the course of the season.

Generally speaking, I'm satisfied with Vitale's play. He's only one man. When we add some better players of his ilk around him, I suspect the PK will improve. Playfair being replaced too.

DesertDawg

I wonder if Samuelsson could be effective in that role?

Lessio - Vitale - Samuelsson ?

 

[Jakey53]

Overall, I'm not happy with Vitale or Chip. They both could have and should have been much better, especially being seasoned vets. If we traded both, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

 

[XX]

Lessio - Vitale - Samuelsson ?

Do you want both of those young players getting 7-8 minutes a night? I haven't given up on them as top 9 guys, so I'd answer no. Letestu and Goc will both be UFAs. Same with guys like Frolik. There are some really good two way/PK guys out there this summer. The Coyotes can afford to be a little lavish with guys that can help shelter younger players.

Lessio is out of waiver eligibility next season, right? 4th line is better than not being a Coyote. Samuelsson might need another year and that's perfectly fine.

 

[Mosby]

While I'm interested in UFAs like Derek Dorsett, I think Lessio and Samuelsson are both unique young players in that they should be able to fit in anywhere in the lineup. They have a scoring touch if we play them in a middle-6 role, but they also have good size and are bangers that could fit on the fourth line with Vitale. I think they can be trusted with ~10 mins a game. Tipp likes a lot of parts of Lessio's game and he's a big fan of "Ulfy's Boy". Of course, Lessio and Hank can then move into more offensive roles when the likes of Doan, Gagner, etc. are gone.

Off the top of my head...

Domi - McEichel - Boedker
Rieder - XXXX - XXXX
Doan - Hanzal - Gagner
Lessio - Vitale - Samuelsson

Obviously to make it work we'd need some clarity on McEichel/Stromarner, i.e., do we still need to bring in another top-6 center? Ideally, the two holes on the 2nd line can be filled with potential Yandle and/or Vermette returns. Or free agency, though quality top 6 options are limited.

 

[DesertDawg]

Do you want both of those young players getting 7-8 minutes a night? I haven't given up on them as top 9 guys, so I'd answer no. Letestu and Goc will both be UFAs. Same with guys like Frolik. There are some really good two way/PK guys out there this summer. The Coyotes can afford to be a little lavish with guys that can help shelter younger players.

Lessio is out of waiver eligibility next season, right? 4th line is better than not being a Coyote. Samuelsson might need another year and that's perfectly fine.

so for Samuelsson he should have "another year", but other prospects need time in the NHL to develop? And you are saying that you would prefer signing veterans over Coyotes' prospects? Or do you not think that these prospects can play the 4th line role?

 

[Matias Maccete]

Exactly. Most fans want the rookies to beat out the vets because the rookies are the underdogs and the fans feel they will do a better job. Doesn't work that way.



We may be trying to follow the Detroit system, but we did not have the drafting and scouts in place to do as good a job. Detroit takes their time with prospects, and most times when they turn pro they are ready and don't need sheltered minutes as much as if they were rushed into the NHL. The last two years we have done a much better job drafting, and GMDM got the nod from management to spend more on scouting.

I'm fine with taking our time with prospects but when they prove they're ready.... They're ready. No need to shelter them at this point.

 

[XX]

so for Samuelsson he should have "another year", but other prospects need time in the NHL to develop? And you are saying that you would prefer signing veterans over Coyotes' prospects? Or do you not think that these prospects can play the 4th line role?

It's all about opportunity cost. The question should be "Can this player be doing something that is ultimately more productive?" The answer with Samuelsson is absolutely yes. If you want to treat him like a potential top 9 forward, as is commensurate with his draft position, you keep him in the AHL playing 1st line minutes. Why on earth would you have a rookie as the 4th line RW instead?

I prefer veterans over prospects when it makes a large amount of sense to do so. There is no reason to play Moss over Rieder. There are some good reasons to sign a stopgap over playing Samuelsson on the 4th line.

Lessio and Samuelsson can both be bangers, so they can 'play' the 4th line role. But the Coyotes should be aiming a little higher with those two, so they should treat them accordingly where possible. If Lessio has no other options other than being lost on waivers, sure. Keep him on the 4th line. Other than that, they should stick to the plan.

I would specifically sign guys that I'm okay playing below where their salary is at, in the event a young player beats them out. Blake Comeau as an example. He can play three wing spots. If Lessio beats him out, so be it. It's not a huge deal to be paying a quality guy to play down when you've got a young player beating him out. If Lessio isn't good enough, that's fine too. He doesn't get the increased icetime of the higher wing spot.

The problem this year has been guys that can't or won't be moved lower when younger players are clearly outplaying them.

 

[DesertDawg]

While I'm interested in UFAs like Derek Dorsett, I think Lessio and Samuelsson are both unique young players in that they should be able to fit in anywhere in the lineup. They have a scoring touch if we play them in a middle-6 role, but they also have good size and are bangers that could fit on the fourth line with Vitale. I think they can be trusted with ~10 mins a game. Tipp likes a lot of parts of Lessio's game and he's a big fan of "Ulfy's Boy". Of course, Lessio and Hank can then move into more offensive roles when the likes of Doan, Gagner, etc. are gone.

Off the top of my head...

Domi - McEichel - Boedker
Rieder - XXXX - XXXX
Doan - Hanzal - Gagner
Lessio - Vitale - Samuelsson

Obviously to make it work we'd need some clarity on McEichel/Stromarner, i.e., do we still need to bring in another top-6 center? Ideally, the two holes on the 2nd line can be filled with potential Yandle and/or Vermette returns. Or free agency, though quality top 6 options are limited.

Trading Vermette without bringing back a center (or through a different trade) would be an Oiler thing to do.
I don't think having 2 rookies on the same line isn't a good thing to do (at least at the start of the season). Of course a McEichel would be the exception.

 

[Thor Savage]

Overall, I'm not happy with Vitale or Chip. They both could have and should have been much better, especially being seasoned vets. If we traded both, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

I agree.

 

[cobra427]

I certainly don't consider calling you ignorant and insult, it means you simply don't know any better, you shouldn't consider it an insult either. Not trying to be tough in any way shape or form, that would be silly given the format.

Chipchura is positionally sound and prior to any turnover's he's typically maintained puck possession for a fair amount of time and that is no doubt what is being asked of him. The powers at be believe they are thinking long term and that limiting the play of the youngsters will improve their game, whereas playing them a lot would ruin their game and it easily could. These things snowball and like I stated two days ago, losing leads to losing; it's better to let the "has beens" / "never were's" do the losing, while gradually integrating the youth, so that it's not all on them.

Whether the Lessio's and Reider's wind up to be much more than the Chipchura's and Moss's remains to be seen and that can only be helped by how they are handled.

Consistency is the most difficult thing for these players and also the most important.

Patience Glasshoppa

Totally agree.