Awesome tidbit of Babcock/Glendening news

Discussion in 'Detroit Red Wings' started by Redder Winger, Mar 4, 2018.

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  1. Pavels Dog

    Pavels Dog Registered User

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    I mean obviously some players are simply bad or struggling for reasons completely seperate from coaching/team. But in the specific case of Sheahan it's hard not to see the clear line of declining play since Blashill took over and the clear line of improved play/production since moving to a different team. Sheahan and Dekeyser imo are the most regressed players under Blashill. I hesitate to blame Blashill as much as I just think Babcock knows how to push players buttons. Tatar improved greatly as soon as Babcock got his hands on him. Nyquist suddenly became a big time goalscorer (and since stopped scoring goals under Blash).
     
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  2. Winger98

    Winger98 powers combined

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    Babcock's last season.
    Blashill's first season.

    How many guys haven't seen their numbers slip under Blashill? We can try to point to key guys getting older or whatever, but the rosters for those two seasons were pretty darn similar. And we've seen guys like Nyquist, Tatar, and Dekeyser continue to slip. Yeah, we don't have a great team and we almost certainly don't have guys to run Blashill's preferred system/style, but maybe he needs to tailor his system/style better to the team he does have.
     
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  3. Redder Winger

    Redder Winger Registered User

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    .
    So now that we've determined that Holland was not scouting director, it doesn't matter if he was scouting director.
    Way to move the goalposts.

    Anyway, the simple point is that Holland, like Yzerman, took over a great team.
    In fact, he took over a better team in an easier management environment (no salary cap).
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
  4. kliq

    kliq Registered User

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    Was this ever in dispute though?
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
  5. Redder Winger

    Redder Winger Registered User

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  6. Nut Upstrom

    Nut Upstrom Registered User

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    A link directing us to a Glendenning/Babcock thread for support on a Holland is a crap GM comment. Proves two things:
    1. Collectively, we cannot converse on any topic without it becoming another ridiculous Holland circular debate.
    2. This thread is pointless and should probably be either locked or added to an existing Holland debate thread.
     
  7. Redder Winger

    Redder Winger Registered User

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    Dude, what's your problem?
    He asked a question. I pointed him to a specific post in this thread that I thought answered his question.
     
  8. kliq

    kliq Registered User

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    I guess there was some debate as to how much influence Holland had pre '98, but I would hope there is no debate in whether or not he started out with a good roster.

    Either way, IMO the most impressive thing on his resume was the '08 cup. Doing a successful re-build on the fly is no easy feat, especially in the cap era.

    With that being said, I think the rebuild on the fly being successful between '02-'08 is what led to another attempt between '08 and '16.
     
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  9. Redder Winger

    Redder Winger Registered User

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    I agree. 08 was his crowning achievement.

    If he thought he was going to rebuilding between 8 and 16 without a Lidstrom or superstar center coming up in the system, he was foolish.
     
  10. kliq

    kliq Registered User

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    Ya, I had a hunch you felt that way lol.

    Definitely hard to stay elite without a 1C/1D, clearly he was hoping Kronwall could be the 1D after they lost out on Suter. Kronwall did a good job, but he is simply better suited as a #2. Sometimes I wonder how the re-build on the fly would have fared had he signed Suter, but we'll never know.
     
  11. Henkka

    Henkka Registered User

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    Holland has been a TOP4 GM on the cap era, just based on his success vs. other GMs.

    But he must be bad. So bad. :D
     
  12. kliq

    kliq Registered User

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    One thing I have found, is that when a team begins to regress its inevitable for a portion of the fan base to turn on the GM. The same thing is happening right now in Chicago against Bowman.
     
  13. Wingsfan 4 life

    Wingsfan 4 life Registered User

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    What? Are we finally getting bored with constantly bringing up the Quincey trade whenever there's a thread with Holland's name in it? Now we're going back decades further arguing over more of the past? Who the hell cares what Hollands position was and what he was actually doing when Federov and Lidstrom where drafted?

    Get over the freaking past, people.

    This is why I can't stand being on this board. Every thread, we have to go 5, 10, 15 years down memory lane for the stupidest reasons that have absolutely no bearing on the present.
     
  14. Winger98

    Winger98 powers combined

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    Yeah, there are plenty of questionable decisions in the past couple of years to bring up instead. :naughty:
     
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  15. Redder Winger

    Redder Winger Registered User

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    Can't get over the past when the only reason this GM has a job is what he did in the past.
     
  16. SoupNazi

    SoupNazi No Soup for You!!!

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    Agreed. His work in Dallas hasn't knocked any socks off.
     
  17. Redder Winger

    Redder Winger Registered User

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    Looking at his draft record, I see poor results thus far.
    Part of it could be that he loves to "overripen" the prospects. But they're not doing much at the AHL level either.

    He's made spectacular trades.
    Tyler Seguin was a first class fleecing.
    Jason Spezza was a great trade, even if the contract looks like ass now. They gave up journeymen NHLers and a second rounder.
    Ben Bishop for a fourth.

    His UFAs are a little more questionable.
    But so far, Radulov looks good.
     
  18. ArGarBarGar

    ArGarBarGar Defense Please

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    Did you guys know Holland wasn't all that great of a goaltender back in the day?
     
  19. Frk It

    Frk It From Z to Z

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    Nill isn't the answer (don't want him as GM), but I had an easier time understanding his thought process with picks than I do with Wright. I also think it's a misconception that he was "bad at drafting" in his time here. If he was actually outright bad, the streak wouldn't have made it nearly as long as it did.

    But someone mentioned that Nill + Holland were better together, and neither has been as good since they separated. I think there may be some truth there. Because his picks in Dallas so far seem worse than they were while he was here.
     
  20. Pavels Dog

    Pavels Dog Registered User

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    Wright seems to go for ultra-competitive people. Seems pretty easy to recognize. I think more time is needed before we know if it's going to be a succesful strategy or not.
     
  21. InjuredChoker

    InjuredChoker Registered User

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    he took mcdonnell (sp?) with him to dallas, who was our head scout and had the most say in our amateur scouting for few years before nill and him left. nill left pre 2013 and mcdonnell after 2013 draft.

    our NA scouting was mostly porous in the late 00s and early 10s, with few gems.
     
  22. Frk It

    Frk It From Z to Z

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    Yet he said this year he is going to focus in on skill. So I don't know that you can really even define what it is yet? Or maybe I just liked Nill's strategy better? (even if he didn't pull it off the best way)

    I don't know, working on a thread to look at it in more detail.
     
  23. Pavels Dog

    Pavels Dog Registered User

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    Don't think one excludes the other. It can just be the difference between taking a Larkin over a Milano (not sure exactly how they were valued against eachother at the draft but Milano had much better numbers). As with any draft strategy, a few "wins" will make people forget a lot of failure. Larkin is already a big win. Hopefully we have more in the system, but it's a little early yet.
     
  24. Redder Winger

    Redder Winger Registered User

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    Where we suffered was with our first rounders, who were generally later first rounder.
    Our North American picks outside round 1 weren't too bad.

    I'm going to rate them baseball style
    Single - decent career for where they are drafted.
    Double - Good career for where they are drafted
    Triple - Great career for where they are drafted
    Homerun - Outstanding career
    K - Whiff
    Ground out -


    Here are our North Americans from 05 to 12.
    Kindl - 19th - single. Never lived up to expectations, but still played 331 games. It hurts that so many guys like Rask, Oshie and Niskanen had good careers. But really, if you look from 13 to 32, Kindl was nowhere near the worst pick.
    Abdekader - Double - Has had a solid NHL career for mid-second rounder.
    Helm - Triple -outstanding career for a fifth rounder.
    May - K
    Stamler - K
    Emmerton - Ground out - Played some games. But not very many
    Matthias - Double - Stand up doube at 47th overall.
    Oslund - K
    Pyett - Thrown out at first - Got signed and played four years in GR but couldn't crack the NHL.
    Smith - Single - Yeah, he was a disappointment. Yeah, Subban was sitting there at 43. But if you look from 15 to 42, Smith is sixth in games played.
    Cameron - K
    Torquato - K
    Rufenach - K
    Ferraro - K - One of the worst picks. Especially given O'Rielly taken right behind him.
    Fournier - K
    Jensen - Double - yeah, he's ****ty. but he's a fifth round pick taking a regular shift in the NHL.
    Callahan - Single - Sixth rounder who played a handful of games and helped the AHL team win twice.
    Sheahan - Single - Will always be pissed we didn't take Kuznetsov, despite the excuses people make. He could turn this into a double, i think.
    LM Aubrey - Ground out - Solid AHL career.
    Mrazek - Double - 5th rounder who has played 173 games. Could easily be more, too.
    Macek - K
    Marshall - K
    Jurco - Ground out - Could still turn this into something, but it's bleak right now.
    Ouellet - Single - Even if he does nothing else, he's been a good find at 48
    Sproul - Ground out -
    Quine - Single - Red Wings never signed him, but he's been pretty good for a late third.
    Hudon - K
    Nedomlel - Ground out - Sixth rounder got a contract and played pro.
    Frk - Single - Looks like at least a single for middle second rounder.
    Paterson - K -
    Athanasiou - Triple - Looks like a great find in the fourth round
    McKee - F
    DeHaas - F
     
  25. Kyleftlx

    Kyleftlx twitter*****/kyle_ftl

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    I don't think it's a stretch to call Abby a triple, and even arguably a home run, although I don't want to stretch too far. He is one of the most physical guys in the league that also can put up points. He was honestly kind of a monster in '15-'16 with his second 40 points season, but also 120 PIMs and 200 hits. He is forever a little bit overrated, but he does have a couple of really solid seasons and he played for team USA as well. I would say he has done a really good job given where he was taken.
     

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