Post-Game Talk: Avs vs Bruins... sigh of relief

[tigervixxxen]

I read the entire GDT back yesterday, Tanguay probably got the most crap so no it's not fair to single just O'Reilly out when others need to be better but I don't see that. It probably has to do with the lines they aren't used to, not that O'Reilly isn't trying. I don't see the criticism so much for Landy, I didn't see it last year when he got off to a slow start either.

 

[henchman21]

If you're going to demand to be paid the same as Duchene, you better damn well perform like Duchene.

The ROR criticism is pretty much this. If you want to get paid like a star, you better perform like one and get used to the pressure that comes along with it.

I read the entire GDT back yesterday, Tanguay probably got the most crap so no it's not fair to single just O'Reilly out when others need to be better but I don't see that. It probably has to do with the lines they aren't used to, not that O'Reilly isn't trying. I don't see the criticism so much for Landy, I didn't see it last year when he got off to a slow start either.

Landy's style of play is pretty unappreciated and I think that accounts for a lot of the complaints about him. I love it because it is very meat and potatoes and very consistent. You always know what you are going to get from him... yet he still has another gear to hit when the team really needs it.

 

[TheStranger]

I read the entire GDT back yesterday, Tanguay probably got the most crap so no it's not fair to single just O'Reilly out when others need to be better but I don't see that. It probably has to do with the lines they aren't used to, not that O'Reilly isn't trying. I don't see the criticism so much for Landy, I didn't see it last year when he got off to a slow start either.

I remember Landeskog getting a lot of **** last year because he was the captain, and a lot of people were going off about him not "leading on the ice". That said there would have been a lot more if we had 2 goals through three games last year and looked like complete garbage.

 

[Pokecheque]

We should feel lucky that we have two franchise talents in Duchene and MacKinnon who have dreamed of playing in Colorado ever since they were kids. But we should also realize that not every player (in fact, most of them) have that level of enthusiasm or sentiment for the team they're playing for.

 

[henchman21]

We should feel lucky that we have two franchise talents in Duchene and MacKinnon who have dreamed of playing in Colorado ever since they were kids. But we should also realize that not every player (in fact, most of them) have that level of enthusiasm or sentiment for the team they're playing for.

Yet most of those players are not so... difficult to get under contract. ROR has proven to be one of the most difficult players to sign since the cap era started.

 

[Bubba Thudd]

ROR is proving his point.

When he plays like crap, the team plays like crap.

As ROR goes, so the team goes.

That alone should get him another mil (since it's obvious the team centers around him)

 

[tigervixxxen]

We should feel lucky that we have two franchise talents in Duchene and MacKinnon who have dreamed of playing in Colorado ever since they were kids. But we should also realize that not every player (in fact, most of them) have that level of enthusiasm or sentiment for the team they're playing for.

Duchene yes but that's not MacKinnon. I doubt he thought much about playing for any team in the west. He was a Pens fan, big east coast guy. Yes it's a rare special thing for someone like Duchene to personally love a team but there are people like Landy who have made a commitment to the team long term and it's appreciated. It's one thing to support all players as Avs and that they are trying to work towards the success of the team and the hate some players get is a bit unfair so to begin to hate on O'Reilly just for that would be unfair too. But on the other hand it's not inappropriate to form feelings based on how we feel those players are going to emotionally impact us. People have favorites for different reasons, it's personal and doesn't have to be rational. Judging their play on the ice should remove that emotion however.

 

[Freudian]

We should feel lucky that we have two franchise talents in Duchene and MacKinnon who have dreamed of playing in Colorado ever since they were kids. But we should also realize that not every player (in fact, most of them) have that level of enthusiasm or sentiment for the team they're playing for.

O'Reilly's market value is probably $6.5-7M/year because market values have been going crazy (lack of UFAs to spend it on), it's not like Avs are treating him bad.

Not a single player drafted 2009 or later is making more money than he is. There's a bunch drafted in 2008 making more though.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

There's a difference between O'Reilly and everyone else in that he has twice held out for more money, saying he's worth more than he's being offered and now he has come out with 3 completely lackluster games in a row.

He's being "mocked" (mostly in jest by most people, except those that don't like him at all anymore), because someone that's just been given a big pay day and talked themselves up as being this amazing player is now seemingly giving less effort than he ever has in his career.

Whether it's nice or not, O'Reilly doesn't get the same pass as everyone else does (And believe me, McLeod and company haven't even been given a pass) because of his salary demands. If you're going to demand to be paid the same as Duchene, you better damn well perform like Duchene.

I'm sure Ryan will turn things around, as the team will, and this will all be forgotten, but there are damn good reasons why he's getting **** on more than anyone else.

So it's ok for guys who immediately sign a contract to underachieve? Man, you guys have some whack priorities. All a higher contract does is raise expectations for that individual, not lower the expectations of others. Others don't deserve a "pass" just because RoR gets paid more.

The effort has been there the past 2 games. Not so much the first, but that was the case for everybody on the ice minus Everberg.

And exactly how has he held out twice? He held out once, after a complete insult of a long term deal. This time around he signed for less than what he was asking for. But for some reason that fact is lost on the haters, who were previously saying his ego would never allow him to sign for less than what he was asking for.

As for who is getting paid what, why isn't Varly expected to be perfect? He has let in a couple goals he shouldn't have. Yet, he is actually get praised for how good he has been. And he is the highest paid player currently.

 

[EdAVSfan]

So it's ok for guys who immediately sign a contract to underachieve? Man, you guys have some whack priorities. All a higher contract does is raise expectations for that individual, not lower the expectations of others. Others don't deserve a "pass" just because RoR gets paid more.

The effort has been there the past 2 games. Not so much the first, but that was the case for everybody on the ice minus Everberg.

And exactly how has he held out twice? He held out once, after a complete insult of a long term deal. This time around he signed for less than what he was asking for. But for some reason that fact is lost on the haters, who were previously saying his ego would never allow him to sign for less than what he was asking for.

As for who is getting paid what, why isn't Varly expected to be perfect? He has let in a couple goals he shouldn't have. Yet, he is actually get praised for how good he has been. And he is the highest paid player currently.

ROR, for the next two years, will have higher expectations. Its simple really. Your salary/cap determines what your expectations are.

As for his "comple insult of a long term deal", ok sure, Ill concede that. But not without also mentioning that he got a very fair and reasonable short term contract offer.

And honestly, he really didnt concede on his new deal. He essentially signed what he was already going to be making. He wouldve had to hold out again to be able to make more. Him asking for more doesnt automatically make it a concession. You viewing him coming down from whatever figure he was asking as a concession is solely your point of view on what a reasonable contract demand was. That doesnt necessarily make it reasonable.

As of now, no players should be getting any benefit of the doubt. They all need to be living up to their cap hits. ROR is always going to have more scrutiny based on his contract history. Its only natural. Fight and claw for more $$$, get the highest cap hit, well then you'll be even more scrutinized upon to make sure you earn every penny.

As for whos making more salary this year, who cares? Cap hits are the only thing that matter. Not the ups and downs of dollar figures actually paid year to year. The cap hits are the direct reason for what type of team you can ice on a year to year basis, not salary figures.

 

[Pokecheque]

Duchene yes but that's not MacKinnon. I doubt he thought much about playing for any team in the west. He was a Pens fan, big east coast guy.

I read he was into the Avs growing up, but that Sid (no surprise) was his favorite player. Whatever the case, the point is the whole narrative concerning players and how much they "care" about the franchise is kinda overblown and oftentimes misrepresented, as I may have inadvertently demonstrated. Players like being on a winning team and making decent coin with relative security, much like anyone else.

I read all the time about how the Leafs have brought in yet another grizzled vet because he grew up a fan, yet rarely if ever does said player take any sort of "hometown discount," and I'm not even sure any of those types of acquisitions have really worked out for them in recent years.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

ROR, for the next two years, will have higher expectations. Its simple really. Your salary/cap determines what your expectations are.

As for his "comple insult of a long term deal", ok sure, Ill concede that. But not without also mentioning that he got a very fair and reasonable short term contract offer.

And honestly, he really didnt concede on his new deal. He essentially signed what he was already going to be making. He wouldve had to hold out again to be able to make more. Him asking for more doesnt automatically make it a concession. You viewing him coming down from whatever figure he was asking as a concession is solely your point of view on what a reasonable contract demand was. That doesnt necessarily make it reasonable.

As of now, no players should be getting any benefit of the doubt. They all need to be living up to their cap hits. ROR is always going to have more scrutiny based on his contract history. Its only natural. Fight and claw for more $$$, get the highest cap hit, well then you'll be even more scrutinized upon to make sure you earn every penny.

As for whos making more salary this year, who cares? Cap hits are the only thing that matter. Not the ups and downs of dollar figures actually paid year to year. The cap hits are the direct reason for what type of team you can ice on a year to year basis, not salary figures.

Yes, RoR will have higher demands. Once again, that doesn't give everyone else a free pass though. And just because the expectations are higher still doesn't mean he should be criticized for every single little thing. Duchene should have the same expectations, as should Varly, since we are making it about money. Neither one of those guys have really got any criticism at all. RoR loses the puck and there are a handful of posts about him sucking. Duchene loses the puck and there is nothing. Just look at some of the comments about his high stick (which wasn't a high stick) acting as if he blew the goal. If he doesn't get a stick on that puck then the puck goes over the net into the glass. There is an obvious double standard that is based on people's emotional feelings towards the players. It's not just the 6 mil, otherwise Duchene and Varly would receiving the same comments after every little mistake.

An insulting offer cancels out any previous gesture.

Where did I say anything about a reasonable contract offer? Though, I would say staying at your current salary is fairly reasonable. Not too many people take pay cuts but have their work expectations go higher. And what does this have to do with the number of times he held out? He didn't hold but the one time, not twice like you said.

how is that not a concession? As you said, he could have held out. He could have held out, yet took less than what he was asking for. That is a concession. When you give in to another side, that's conceding. I know I will never win an argument with my wife. But I will try for awhile. When I finally cave to her am I not conceding because I knew all along I would never win? I still think I am right and only cave because I am tired of arguing. How is that not conceding to something?

I am well aware of salary vs cap hit. But I also realize 5.9 is basically the same as 6. All 3 guys are on the same level cap hit wise. Yet, only RoR gets severely scrutinized. Like I said, it's not about the money. It's about the emotional hate.

 

[henchman21]

I am well aware of salary vs cap hit. But I also realize 5.9 is basically the same as 6. All 3 guys are on the same level cap hit wise. Yet, only RoR gets severely scrutinized. Like I said, it's not about the money. It's about the emotional hate.

Varly and Duchene will get their criticism if they don't play well. Duchene has been the best forward for the Avs so far... and you can't blame Varly for either loss. In the first game the Avs just sucked... period. In the 2nd game, Varly did everything he could to keep them in the game.

Out of the Duchene, Varly, Landy, and ROR group who are around the same pay level... ROR has by far played the worst.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

But they have not been getting criticism when they mess up. I think I'm not getting my point across clearly. I'm not talking about people analyzing a game, I'm talking about specific plays. I noticed a lot of 'Ror sucks' type comments during the games when he would just simply lose the puck, like what routinely happens in every game to every player who touches the puck more than once. But Duchene never gets those comments after a bad play. If Duchene loses the puck, nothing was said.

And Lando has been right there with RoR in underachieving.

 

[EdAVSfan]

Yes, RoR will have higher demands. Once again, that doesn't give everyone else a free pass though. And just because the expectations are higher still doesn't mean he should be criticized for every single little thing. Duchene should have the same expectations, as should Varly, since we are making it about money. Neither one of those guys have really got any criticism at all. RoR loses the puck and there are a handful of posts about him sucking. Duchene loses the puck and there is nothing. Just look at some of the comments about his high stick (which wasn't a high stick) acting as if he blew the goal. If he doesn't get a stick on that puck then the puck goes over the net into the glass. There is an obvious double standard that is based on people's emotional feelings towards the players. It's not just the 6 mil, otherwise Duchene and Varly would receiving the same comments after every little mistake.

An insulting offer cancels out any previous gesture.

Where did I say anything about a reasonable contract offer? Though, I would say staying at your current salary is fairly reasonable. Not too many people take pay cuts but have their work expectations go higher. And what does this have to do with the number of times he held out? He didn't hold but the one time, not twice like you said.

how is that not a concession? As you said, he could have held out. He could have held out, yet took less than what he was asking for. That is a concession. When you give in to another side, that's conceding. I know I will never win an argument with my wife. But I will try for awhile. When I finally cave to her am I not conceding because I knew all along I would never win? I still think I am right and only cave because I am tired of arguing. How is that not conceding to something?

I am well aware of salary vs cap hit. But I also realize 5.9 is basically the same as 6. All 3 guys are on the same level cap hit wise. Yet, only RoR gets severely scrutinized. Like I said, it's not about the money. It's about the emotional hate.

I feel as though you're lumping me in with other posters as you're accusing me of things ive never said. Might just be a general thought youre giving.

I have not lowered the expectations of other guys in any way due to ROR;s salary. I expect players to perform up to there cap hits. I have not, in any way, picked on ROR more than anyone else for singular moments. Ive looked at overall games, and ROR has been very poor for the first 3 games. He was excellent in the 4th game. That doesnt mean that I dont think Landeskog hasnt been poor either, because he has. So while other people are criticizing ROR on singular moments in games, I havent, and therefore your comments in regards to this dont necessarily apply to me.

I also never said he held out twice, so again, doesnt apply.

As for your concession talk. Its all semantics really. The avs management could be looked upon as conceding since they likely wanted to pay him less than 6M. Conceding is 100% an opinionated stance because it can only be evaluated on whether or not your initial position is "fair". And fair is relative to each individual person's opinion. I dont think ROR shouldve gotten 6M on a short term. So him accepting what, IMO, is an inflated contract, means that I dont accept the premise that he conceded anything. In his mind, and likely in yours, hes conceding. But thats solely based on the fact that you believe his initial starting point is fair. I dont. And truly, neither one of us is right or wrong.

Is there more of an emotional hate towards ROR than the others. Its highly likely, if not, guaranteed. But thats because ppl take ROR's decisions personally. Therefore theres more emotion involved. For some, it skews their opinions, for others, it doesnt.

At this stage, ROR, Duchene, and Varly are considered our most valuable players for this year (cap wise). So their expectations follow suit. IMO, ROR has been the worst of the 3. If someone is just nitpicking a lost puck, every chance they can, and doesnt do the same for others,then who cares. Let that person wallow in his emotional, unreasonable, and biased state of mind. You won't be able to change it nor will you be able to show them their bias. Its just a lost cause altogether.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

Just a general thought. I had seen a few posts questioning why there was so much RoR hate. And then the post I responded to said something like "I actually thought RoR as OK", implying they thought they had a different opinion from the masses. I was just trying to say that there appears to be a lot of hate because a handful of posters would criticize RoR for every little thing but other players did not get that type of overcriticism making it seem worse than it actual was for RoR.

My bad, it was thestranger who said he held out twice. Got you guys mixed up.

Conceding has to do with the individual and what they think is fair. It has nothing to do with what is generally thought of as fair. It has nothing to do with your or my opinion. If a player believes they are worth X amount coming down from that is conceding regardless of what is actually fair.