Rumor: Avs Proposals/Rumors/Free Agents 18-19 part XXIX|Acquire All of Landy's Friends

[Pokecheque]

Its hilarous that you think the game has changed.

Literally every single top team in the standings is full of beasts on the back end.

I posted the size of the Blues guys and of course there was no response.

It's hilarious you think there's only one way to win in the NHL, or that I believe the same notion. Or that Detroit and Chicago got it done with "beasts on the back end." Even when clutch-and-grab was more normalized than it is now the Wings were winning Cups with some of the smallest teams in the league. If you want to believe that Girard and Makar weren't a huge reason the Avs were at all successful in the postseason, or that Barrie wasn't a huge reason they made the postseason in the first place, then nothing I say here is going to sway you anyway.

 

[Gatorbait19]

Imagine being the best player on the team and watching them trade the 4th best player on the team over 500k? Sure Mackinnon would be ecstatic he is on a sweetheart deal to watch Barrie get traded.

Can someone teach me how to multi quote again please?

Imagine being the best player on the team and seeing the team waste your sweetheart deal by locking up a guy who’s about to be passed on the depth chart (if he hasn’t already) and therefore a luxury. Makar is taking his spot and eating into his minutes.

Come crunch time in the playoffs, you’ve got to have better defensive abilities than what Tyson brings. Instead, we’ll either have a defensive liability on the ice, or an $8-9m bench warmer.

 

[Pokecheque]

If this summer is going to be little more than seeing the quickest way Barrie can be severed from the roster like a septic limb, I'm definitely going to enjoy an offseason away from this place.

 

[Balthazar]

If this summer is going to be little more than seeing the quickest way Barrie can be severed from the roster like a septic limb, I'm definitely going to enjoy an offseason away from this place.

The draft thread is where it's at for the next month.

The Barrie talk always hijacks (ruins) this thread, they should make a separate thread just for him.

 

[cgf]

I would love to hear owen explain how every single cup winner since the Kings, managed to win by playing modern hockey rather than the old-school hockey that is still played in his world.

 

[OwenNolan]

Both are pretty rare nowadays, there aren't a whole lot of physically intimidating beasts anymore. But for me the offensive player that can burn me is a lot more frightening that the physical one.

And what happens if the physical player misses a big hit, leading to a rush the other way and a goal against? You can play the what if game for both sides.

Fair enough.

The argument was that I believe Z affects the game more than Barrie.

So with that in mind and how you suggest the game has changed wouldn't finding those offensive minded dmen be easier to find than a physical precence.?

And as for affecting the game: Well I believe Z is at the top of guys who are a physical presence. Guys like Tom Wilson, Brent Burns, Michael Ferland and big Z and so on are much harder to find than guys like Tyson Barrie, Kevin Shattenkirk or Torey Krug. Undersized offensive defensemen who are defensive liabilities.

I can guarantee you a coach tells his guys to keep their head up when Z, Wilson and such are on the ice but they could care less if Barrie or Krug are.

 

[Gatorbait19]

There’s no doubt. And whether Barrie deserves $8 million is debatable (though that number is probably in the right ball park).

But it’s not about “using extra cap space” by giving Barrie more money; it’s about the market for a player of his caliber changing, due to the salary cap increasing.

Burns, in my opinion, is on another level than Carlson. Yet, they make the same amount of money, despite only a ~1.5 year gap of when they signed.

Just food for thought.

The salary cap isn’t increasing so much though that it increased Barrie’s AAV that much. The difference/inflation rate between last year (when Carlson signed) and this year (when Barrie should sign), is about $250k.

Even giving Barrie the benefit of that $250k, it doesn’t put him anywhere near Burns or Karlsson.

Also, both Carlson and Burns signed with their current teams, although they could’ve gotten more on the open market. If we do sign Barrie, the same principal has to apply, meaning that (even if $8m was around what Barrie would get paid), he needs to give some sort of hometown discount down to at least $7m.

 

[OwenNolan]

I would love to hear owen explain how every single cup winner since the Kings, managed to win by playing modern hockey rather than the old-school hockey that is still played in his world.

Take a look at all the Cup winners defense. None of them had 3 guys who are 5'9 and under 180 pounds. None.

Every single one of them had a legit #1 Dman capable of playing 28 minutes a night and can play a solid 2 way game.

That player isn't Tyson Barrie. If Barrie was our only offensive puck mover I'd be all for signing him long term. But the fact of the matter is that we have 2 guys younger and cheaper than him who have already seemed to supplant him.

And again, no-one can answer who kills penalties with a defense that has Girard, Makar and Barrie. I guess that doesn't matter.

 

[Foppberg]

Fair enough.

The argument was that I believe Z affects the game more than Barrie.

So with that in mind and how you suggest the game has changed wouldn't finding those offensive minded dmen be easier to find than a physical precence.?

And as for affecting the game: Well I believe Z is at the top of guys who are a physical presence. Guys like Tom Wilson, Brent Burns, Michael Ferland and big Z and so on are much harder to find than guys like Tyson Barrie, Kevin Shattenkirk or Torey Krug. Undersized offensive defensemen who are defensive liabilities.

I can guarantee you a coach tells his guys to keep their head up when Z, Wilson and such are on the ice but they could care less if Barrie or Krug are.

Even if they're easier to find guys who can score goals and put up points are more valuable than physical guys. I LOVE Z and his hits, but Barrie's offense wins us games, Z hits don't.

I don't think teams "couldn't care less" about guys like Krug or Barrie. At the end of the game what would you prefer as a player, to get roughed up but win or not get too roughed up and lose? Guys like Barrie/Krug win you games more often than guys like Z.

 

[RockLobster]

Everyone responding to Owen on this issue is being taken for a ride. He's sitting on the other end, all 6'3 265lb of himself, just laughing at everyone feeding him.

 

[lonelybadger]

Take a look at all the Cup winners defense. None of them had 3 guys who are 5'9 and under 180 pounds. None.

Every single one of them had a legit #1 Dman capable of playing 28 minutes a night and can play a solid 2 way game.

That player isn't Tyson Barrie. If Barrie was our only offensive puck mover I'd be all for signing him long term. But the fact of the matter is that we have 2 guys younger and cheaper than him who have already seemed to supplant him.

And again, no-one can answer who kills penalties with a defense that has Girard, Makar and Barrie. I guess that doesn't matter.

Boston is pretty close with Krug and Grzelck, McAvoy is only 6 feet. Sure they have Chara but he is basically a hall of fame pylon right now, and Carlo but the Avs have Zadorov.

 

[Gatorbait19]

And yeah, the defensive gap isn't nearly as big as you're acting like it is.

See that right there is your problem. I know you’re focused solely on win now (which we do need to be), but you’re looking at this solely through burgundy and blue glasses and closing our window in 2 years once the extension kicks in.

Tyson is not a good defender. At all. This is why he was only 56th in TOI last year. Carlson is a top pairing shutdown Dman that also plays significant minutes on the PK. If you look at the top 30+ scoring Dmen, every single one of them is a better (and in most cases much better) player defensively than Tyson.

With the emergence of Makar/Girard (and the offense they bring), we need our other Dmen to be better defensively. Tyson does not complement those guys whatsoever and his best attribute (generating points) is going to be significantly affected by Makar/Girard.

 

[cgf]

Take a look at all the Cup winners defense. None of them had 3 guys who are 5'9 and under 180 pounds. None.

Every single one of them had a legit #1 Dman capable of playing 28 minutes a night and can play a solid 2 way game.

That player isn't Tyson Barrie. If Barrie was our only offensive puck mover I'd be all for signing him long term. But the fact of the matter is that we have 2 guys younger and cheaper than him who have already seemed to supplant him.

And again, no-one can answer who kills penalties with a defense that has Girard, Makar and Barrie. I guess that doesn't matter.

So that's no explanation for how so many cups were won by teams that didn't build their bluelines around physicality instead of puck-moving, I figured.

Just because you ignore people's answers doesn't mean they don't address your questions

 

[cgf]

See that right there is your problem. I know you’re focused solely on win now (which we do need to be), but you’re looking at this solely through burgundy and blue glasses and closing our window in 2 years once the extension kicks in.

Tyson is not a good defender. At all. This is why he was only 56th in TOI last year. Carlson is a top pairing shutdown Dman that also plays significant minutes on the PK. If you look at the top 30+ scoring Dmen, every single one of them is a better (and in most cases much better) player defensively than Tyson.

With the emergence of Makar/Girard (and the offense they bring), we need our other Dmen to be better defensively. Tyson does not complement those guys whatsoever and his best attribute (generating points) is going to be significantly affected by Makar/Girard.

lol if you say so

 

[lonelybadger]

What should and will happen is Sakic is going to negotiate with Barrie, and I would hope he does it before the draft. He is going to get a pretty good idea what Barrie wants in terms of dollars and cap hit, he already knows what GM's gauge Barrie at because his name is always in the rumor mill. I highly doubt they will be able to get a haul that is better than saving a couple million dollars in cap space.

 

[SoundwaveIsCharisma]

Everyone responding to Owen on this issue is being taken for a ride. He's sitting on the other end, all 6'3 265lb of himself, just laughing at everyone feeding him.

Pretty sure that's how he got so damn THICC

 

[OwenNolan]

It's hilarious you think there's only one way to win in the NHL, or that I believe the same notion. Or that Detroit and Chicago got it done with "beasts on the back end." Even when clutch-and-grab was more normalized than it is now the Wings were winning Cups with some of the smallest teams in the league. If you want to believe that Girard and Makar weren't a huge reason the Avs were at all successful in the postseason, or that Barrie wasn't a huge reason they made the postseason in the first place, then nothing I say here is going to sway you anyway.

"Wings were winning Cups with some of the smallest teams in the league"

You dont get it. Even those smaller players they had were defensive monsters. Zetterberg and Datsuyk were two of the best defensive forward in the game. Lidstrom was the best 2 way defenseman in the game.

Chicago had Seabrook, Oduya, Hjalmarsson and Keith in their top 4. 1 offense minded dman and 3 big physical shut down dmen.

Detroit had Lidstrom, Chelios and Kronwall. 3 of the best defensive defensemen to ever play the game.in their top 4. Rafalski was no slouch either.

LA Kings had Doughty, Willie Mitchell and Voynov in their top 4. 3 elite defensive defenseman. Throw in Matt Greene, Alec Martinez and Rob Scuderi and they had one offensive minded Dman in Doughty but he is also a beast in his own end.

Not one of those Cup winning teams had 3 defensive liabilities in their top 4 under 6'0 and 180 pounds.

 

[UncleRisto]

Take a look at all the Cup winners defense. None of them had 3 guys who are 5'9 and under 180 pounds. None.

That's fair, there's definitely an argument there. We'll see how it goes I guess.

Every single one of them had a legit #1 Dman capable of playing 28 minutes a night and can play a solid 2 way game.

We haven't had that in the cap era.

That player isn't Tyson Barrie. If Barrie was our only offensive puck mover I'd be all for signing him long term. But the fact of the matter is that we have 2 guys younger and cheaper than him who have already seemed to supplant him.

The first part is valid. The last thing is simply not true.

And again, no-one can answer who kills penalties with a defense that has Girard, Makar and Barrie. I guess that doesn't matter.

You were actually answered several times and with multiple choice, you just disagreed and didn't register it.

Listen, I see your actual point and it's fair to question whether the defense is too heavy on OFD but Adam McQuaid isn't going to solve any issues. You don't need to balance those guys out with some meathead brutes, but it's difficult to find better defensemen than Barrie, all things considered. It'd be cool if we had a real #1 soon, but guess who's not it: Zadorov. And I love the dude.

 

[Patagonia]

7-8(ish) per on a 5-8 year deal is where I'd be happy. If the meeting point ends up more like 8.75-9per, that's workable given our cap flexibility through the rest of MacK's sweetheart deal.

Barrie is worth $8.75M - $9M per as workable?

I can't believe you said this...or maybe you didn't...

 

[OwenNolan]

Even if they're easier to find guys who can score goals and put up points are more valuable than physical guys. I LOVE Z and his hits, but Barrie's offense wins us games, Z hits don't.

I don't think teams "couldn't care less" about guys like Krug or Barrie. At the end of the game what would you prefer as a player, to get roughed up but win or not get too roughed up and lose? Guys like Barrie/Krug win you games more often than guys like Z.

Garbage. Barrie was responsible for more goals against than he created. 6 of his 8 points came in 2 games and he was a complete defensive liability in the rest.

 

[UncleRisto]

Everyone responding to Owen on this issue is being taken for a ride. He's sitting on the other end, all 6'3 265lb of himself, just laughing at everyone feeding him.

Go for it. I want to see how stupid it gets.

 

[OwenNolan]

That's fair, there's definitely an argument there. We'll see how it goes I guess.


We haven't had that in the cap era.


The first part is valid. The last thing is simply not true.


You were actually answered several times and with multiple choice, you just disagreed and didn't register it.

Listen, I see your actual point and it's fair to question whether the defense is too heavy on OFD but Adam McQuaid isn't going to solve any issues. You don't need to balance those guys out with some meathead brutes, but it's difficult to find better defensemen than Barrie, all things considered. It'd be cool if we had a real #1 soon, but guess who's not it: Zadorov. And I love the dude.

No-one said Z is a a #1 guy. I think Makar can be that guy. I think he is already more responsible defensively than Barrie.

I listened to the suggestions of playing Barrie or Girard on the PK and didn't respond because it wasn't worth my time. We won't be winning many games if either of those guys are killing penalties on the regular.

 

[cgf]

Barrie is worth $8.75M - $9M per as workable?