Post-Game Talk: Avs @ Flyers |Losin' for Leon!!!!!!

[tigervixxxen]

Siemens and Elliott are back now, Siemens only a few games though. I think Roy is reluctant to call anyone up unless he HAS to. I'm not sure anyone from LE gets a decent look this season.

 

[AslanRH]

I'm just saying that THAT single play isn't enough to prove that he isn't an NHL defenseman. Cause a lot better players do it too.

Anyway, I'm fine if he gets waived/traded whatever, but I'm also fine with him being our 6/7th d-man.

Like it or not, I'm pretty much 80% positive Holden-Guenin will either be 3rd pairing or at least in the bottom 4 of Roy's 8 man squad to start next season as well.

I will say that both have marginally improved since the start of the season, but neither bring much confidence of ever being much more than suitable 3rd pairing guys.

 

[AvsRobin]

Like it or not, I'm pretty much 80% positive Holden-Guenin will either be 3rd pairing or at least in the bottom 4 of Roy's 8 man squad to start next season as well.

I will say that both have marginally improved since the start of the season, but neither bring much confidence of ever being much more than suitable 3rd pairing guys.

Everyone complains about their 3rd pairing guys though. Even Chicago fans moan about Leddy and Rozsival.

 

[Foppa2118]

That's why he is a third pairing guy. They will make mistakes. Otherwise they would be paid like top pairing guys.

I think there's a line where a defenseman is not a great option on the 3rd pairing either, and I think Holden has crossed that line. You can play him there if you have to, but if you can bring in a more reliable presence via UFA or something, you do it easily.

Stuff like that is always gonna happen. We even saw SHEA WEBER doing the exact same thing in Pepsi Center last year.

http://video.nhl.com/videocenter/console?id=2012020221-475-h

Except that's a fluke for Weber and he plays Norris caliber hockey most every other night. Holden plays AHL caliber hockey most nights, and the rarity for him is when he has a really good game.

That play kind of embodies Holden's defensive zone play. That isn't the case for Shea Weber.

 

[Pokecheque]

Siemens and Elliott are back now, Siemens only a few games though. I think Roy is reluctant to call anyone up unless he HAS to. I'm not sure anyone from LE gets a decent look this season.

That's fine. The Avs are at the point where they need to buckle down and secure that playoff spot. They had some leeway earlier in the season where they could've mixed things up a bit. They don't now. Much as I don't like Holden securing a place on the team this season, he's probably a better option at this point than a callup would be. I just don't want him there next season, at least not anything higher than 7th guy.

One thing that should be noted--Barrie has notched a pretty decent season despite bad defensive partners most of the time. Imagine what he'll do once he has a more reliable guy playing on his left side.

 

[Ham Fist]

I can see no benefit to playing Holden any longer. At some point management has to decide they're over losing games because of lazy, incompetent plays like he makes and acquire better D. We have the cap space, quit being so GD cheap. Teams are beating us simply by keying on Holden's (and other D's) ineptitude. He's not even good at being a pylon, calling him that would imply he causes a skater to go around him.

 

[DanglesFromDuchene]

I can see no benefit to playing Holden any longer. At some point management has to decide they're over losing games because of lazy, incompetent plays like he makes and acquire better D. We have the cap space, quit being so GD cheap. Teams are beating us simply by keying on Holden's (and other D's) ineptitude. He's not even good at being a pylon, calling him that would imply he causes a skater to go around him.

I don't think Holden or any of our dmen for that matter have had issues with effort this year.

We do have the cap space, but we need to look at the future and make sure we lock down our core and finish this rebuild properly before we can spend to the cap every year.

 

[Freudian]

I don't think Holden is lazy. The game is just too fast for him. You can see him, and I've very rarely seen this before, pause to figure out what he is going to do during play. There is a slight hesitation before he pinches. Before he turns around to fetch a dump (which is why teams have been putting the puck in his corner every single game).

He seems like a really nice guy but I don't think he'll be a NHL player.

 

[5280]

I can see no benefit to playing Holden any longer. At some point management has to decide they're over losing games because of lazy, incompetent plays like he makes and acquire better D. We have the cap space, quit being so GD cheap. Teams are beating us simply by keying on Holden's (and other D's) ineptitude. He's not even good at being a pylon, calling him that would imply he causes a skater to go around him.

This seems to be true. I am sure Roy/Sakic realize this though.

 

[S E P H]

I can see no benefit to playing Holden any longer. At some point management has to decide they're over losing games because of lazy, incompetent plays like he makes and acquire better D. We have the cap space, quit being so GD cheap. Teams are beating us simply by keying on Holden's (and other D's) ineptitude. He's not even good at being a pylon, calling him that would imply he causes a skater to go around him.

I am the biggest Holden hater, but the guy isn't lazy. He just doesn't have the skill level, most notably the brain to succeed in the NHL level.

I do agree that a broken Ryan Wilson would contribute far more than a healthy Holden, but not by much.

Two things you must also understand,

- We're still a rebuilding (currently ending) club, even though we sit 3rd in the best division in hockey. We still need to look for long term than trade away Siemens, Elliott, Bigras, Barrie for more established higher paid defensemen.

- As a rebuilding club that is currently on the exit path, majority of these type of teams WILL lack depth. Trust me, I saw it with Chicago, Pittsburgh, Anaheim, and St. Louis. Only when some of their other (later round) draft prospects started developing into NHL players did those teams have the depth to change from a playoff contender team to a Cup contender team.

We have drafted a ton of defensemen the last 3 years including an entire draft last year. Not saying any of them will be the next Seabrook or Letang, but all of them (more of the notable ones) do have the potential to be better than the likes of Guenin, Holden, Wilson, and maybe even Hejda.

 

[The Mars Volchenkov]

I'd like to see Wilson next game. I thought he played well against Buffalo in his limited time. Made some smart pinches which led to a few goals.

 

[henchman21]

I am the biggest Holden hater, but the guy isn't lazy. He just doesn't have the skill level, most notably the brain to succeed in the NHL level.

I do agree that a broken Ryan Wilson would contribute far more than a healthy Holden, but not by much.

Two things you must also understand,

- We're still a rebuilding (currently ending) club, even though we sit 3rd in the best division in hockey. We still need to look for long term than trade away Siemens, Elliott, Bigras, Barrie for more established higher paid defensemen.

- As a rebuilding club that is currently on the exit path, majority of these type of teams WILL lack depth. Trust me, I saw it with Chicago, Pittsburgh, Anaheim, and St. Louis. Only when some of their other (later round) draft prospects started developing into NHL players did those teams have the depth to change from a playoff contender team to a Cup contender team.

We have drafted a ton of defensemen the last 3 years including an entire draft last year. Not saying any of them will be the next Seabrook or Letang, but all of them (more of the notable ones) do have the potential to be better than the likes of Guenin, Holden, Wilson, and maybe even Hejda.

This is a very important point to remember. The Avs have to get better at developing their 2+ round picks (only 2 of those picks have contributed to the Avs in a significant manner since 2006... Barrie and Galiardi). We have a solid core now, but we will not likely be getting top 10 picks anymore. Usually in drafts after the 10-15 range the players all have flaws and need to be developed to hit on the pick.

 

[member 116861]

This is a very important point to remember. The Avs have to get better at developing their 2+ round picks (only 2 of those picks have contributed to the Avs in a significant manner since 2006... Barrie and Galiardi). We have a solid core now, but we will not likely be getting top 10 picks anymore. Usually in drafts after the 10-15 range the players all have flaws and need to be developed to hit on the pick.

 

[henchman21]

Complete oversight Yes you are right. Still point stands.

 

[hockeyfish]

Complete oversight Yes you are right. Still point stands.

A 37.5% success rate from 2nd round picks seems pretty good to me.

 

[henchman21]

A 37.5% success rate from 2nd round picks seems pretty good to me.

20%... 2 out of 10 since 2006 so far (not counting Bigras or any of 2013 draft). 1 out of 36 on 3rd+ round picks (Bournival might make that 2).

 

[S E P H]

This is a very important point to remember. The Avs have to get better at developing their 2+ round picks (only 2 of those picks have contributed to the Avs in a significant manner since 2006... Barrie and Galiardi). We have a solid core now, but we will not likely be getting top 10 picks anymore. Usually in drafts after the 10-15 range the players all have flaws and need to be developed to hit on the pick.

You're right the Avs need to get better in the development aspect, but a lot of our prospects are too young (the biggest outcome IMO) or have had injury problems to make a direct impact losing close to half a season in development.

- Sgarbossa (Isn't NHL ready, lost close to half a season of development)
- C. Smith (Too young, isn't NHL ready)
- Meurs (Too young, isn't NHL ready)
- Agozzino (Isn't NHL ready)
- Hishon (Isn't NHL ready, injury prone)
- Carey (Closest to NHL ready, coming back a 1-2 month injury)
- Elliott (I think he's gone at deadline)
- Malone (Specifically drafted for bottom line grinder role)
- Lauridsen (Isn't NHL ready)
- Heard (Too young, actually looking like a bad pick than development)
- Beaupre (Too young, isn't NHL ready)
- Cheek (Too young, isn't NHL ready)
- Siemens (Too young, isn't NHL ready and lost half a year with injury)
- Bourke (Too young, isn't NHL ready)
- Blandisi (Too young, isn't NHL ready...Looking like a solid pick, hasn't played the last two games due to probably an injury)
- Bigras (Too young, isn't NHL ready)
- Geertsen (Too young, isn't NHL ready)
- Young (Too young, isn't NHL ready...Looking like a solid pick)
- Butcher (Too young, isn't NHL ready)
- Storm (WAY TOO YOUNG, might not even have an NHL future)
- Condon (Too young, isn't NHL ready)
- Moffatt (Too young, isn't NHL ready)

All our goalers are too young and are not NHL ready, Aittokallio is the closest and still needs at least one to two more years of seasoning.

So Avs are in that point-of-time-wormhole where all our great prospects are contributing significantly in the NHL level while the others need years' of more seasoning before even getting a chance for a call up. Besides baseball, hockey is the next sport in terms of development time for players. The lack of picks have also hurt if you compare a team like Chicago who traded their first Cup winning team into only draft picks.

 

[AvsRobin]

20%... 2 out of 10 since 2006 so far (not counting Bigras or any of 2013 draft). 1 out of 36 on 3rd+ round picks (Bournival might make that 2).

You refering to Barrie? I gotta say I think Olver is a success considering he was a 5th round pick and has a decent number of NHL games under his belt. Honestly rather see him up here than McLeod or Bordeleau at times.

 

[Avs71]

Complete oversight Yes you are right. Still point stands.

Does it? For instance, and I'm only going to do one team since I should be studying, St. Louis has picked:

-William Carrier '13
-Tom Vannelli '13
-Samuel Kurker '12
-Dmitrij Jaskin '11
-Ty Rattie '11
-Joel Edmundson '11
-Sebastian Wannstrom '10
-Brett Ponich '09
-Jake Allen '08
-Philip McRae '08
-Simon Hjalmarsson '07
-Tomas Kana '06
-Scott Jackson '05

Not exactly a glowing list. In that time the Avs managed to pull Stastny and O'Reilly out of the 2nd round.

 

[S E P H]

Blues are probably the best drafting team in the league, even though how good Pracey+Team have done and IMO a they're a top 5 scout team in the league, Blues are #1 by a clear margin.

 

[henchman21]

You're right the Avs need to get better in the development aspect, but a lot of our prospects are too young (the biggest outcome IMO) or have had injury problems to make a direct impact losing close to half a season in development.

All our goalers are too young and are not NHL ready, Aittokallio is the closest and still needs at least one to two more years of seasoning.

I don't disagree at all, but injuries shouldn't be an excuse for not finding impact players in the later rounds. Since Pracey has taken over I think our past 1st round drafting has improved and we now have a number of young players that look to have NHL futures, just not very many in the minors that look like they have legit top6/top4 potential. The 2012 and 2013 drafts look better, but still have a long ways to go. That level of late drafting is going to be needed to draft successfully in the late 1st on to maintain a high level of success.

 

[henchman21]

You refering to Barrie? I gotta say I think Olver is a success considering he was a 5th round pick and has a decent number of NHL games under his belt. Honestly rather see him up here than McLeod or Bordeleau at times.

Yes, I am referring to Barrie. Olver isn't an impact player as he was at best a 12/13 forward. Those are easy to find all over the place.

Does it? For instance, and I'm only going to do one team since I should be studying, St. Louis has picked:

-William Carrier '13
-Tom Vannelli '13
-Samuel Kurker '12
-Dmitrij Jaskin '11
-Ty Rattie '11
-Joel Edmundson '11
-Sebastian Wannstrom '10
-Brett Ponich '09
-Jake Allen '08
-Philip McRae '08
-Simon Hjalmarsson '07
-Tomas Kana '06
-Scott Jackson '05

Not exactly a glowing list. In that time the Avs managed to pull Stastny and O'Reilly out of the 2nd round.

St. Louis built their core completely differently, and they are deep enough that some high level picks are not able to make the roster... thus can be used as trade bait. They also started the rebuild much earlier.... Backes, Stempniak, McClement, Polak, Nikitin, and Bishop were all 2nd+ round picks that either contributed directly or indirectly to their re-build (they also complied 1st round picks which the Avs didn't do).

 

[Alex Jones]

If you want to see how the Blues built their core, watch the Sabres over the next few years.

 

[Avs]

When Bordeleau got the major.

Speaking of, does anyone have a video or gif of that?

I had class last night so I couldnt watch any of the game.

 

[InjuredChoker]

St. Louis built their core completely differently, and they are deep enough that some high level picks are not able to make the roster... thus can be used as trade bait. They also started the rebuild much earlier.... Backes, Stempniak, McClement, Polak, Nikitin, and Bishop were all 2nd+ round picks that either contributed directly or indirectly to their re-build (they also complied 1st round picks which the Avs didn't do).

lehterä was good pick too. just didn't want to come over.

habs also tend to draft pretty well. sharks seem to get good players too.

on the other hand canes might be one of the worst along with oilers. they hit big one on faulk but otherwise.. oh my.