GDT: Aves @ Hawkes | 6:30pm MT | All I want for Christmas is Cale and a 2C

[Pokecheque]

I'll just point out that I've seen you make this comparison to Skoula before, and even though I disagree strongly with it, I didn't respond to it, because I know it's just an opinion, so I don't take much issue with it.

Just my 2 cents, but Skoula played that way into his 30's, and probably beyond. Bo is 22 and the most games he's played in a regular season is 42 last year. He hasn't had any stability at all in his pro career, which is very important for young players.

He's still got to work things out, and has growing pains to get through, like all young defenseman, and that's hard to do when you're bouncing in and out of the lineup for long periods of times, with serious injuries that have made him question whether or not he wants to keep playing.

Yeah I know, and I get that it's not an apples-to-apples sort of comparison. It's just that he's reminding me of Skoula, especially this year. I still think it applies insofar that Skoula was more effective when he dialed it back, and I agree with Henchy that Bo has to do so as well. I unfortunately don't think the ceiling isn't as high as we all hoped, even with all the major injury setbacks. Whatever the case, the way he's playing now is simply not working.

And while it has been mythologized to the point of absurdity, he DID play a more dialed-down version of his game in the Cup run, and was indeed excellent.

Admittedly, Skoula displayed his best defense alongside a Rob Blake who was playing out of his GD mind (and I will forever remain insanely bitter about that f***ing ASG in Minnesota that year but I've beaten that horse to death several times) so maybe it was all a friggin' mirage...

 

[Foppa2118]

Yeah I know, and I get that it's not an apples-to-apples sort of comparison. It's just that he's reminding me of Skoula, especially this year. I still think it applies insofar that Skoula was more effective when he dialed it back, and I agree with Henchy that Bo has to do so as well. I unfortunately don't think the ceiling isn't as high as we all hoped, even with all the major injury setbacks. Whatever the case, the way he's playing now is simply not working.

And while it has been mythologized to the point of absurdity, he DID play a more dialed-down version of his game in the Cup run, and was indeed excellent.

Admittedly, Skoula displayed his best defense alongside a Rob Blake who was playing out of his GD mind (and I will forever remain insanely bitter about that f***ing ASG in Minnesota that year but I've beaten that horse to death several times) so maybe it was all a friggin' mirage...

The best I've ever seen Bo play was in the WJC gold medal game.

Most who watched him, were really impressed. And he played on his toes the whole game, dominating play with the puck, and pushing the pace.

Bednar also said after the WJC he loved the way he played in that game. He also said recently that (if I remember the quote exactly) "We all know Bo can be a dominant defenseman."

He wants D like him pushing the pace, driving play offensively, and getting involved in the O zone, not sitting back, playing a simple game. That's for D like Manson, EJ, and JJ, and even them he wants them involved if they see the opportunity.

Bedsy also said this about a game in the past Bo played.

"He was one of the guys that impressed me the most tonight. Like for a complete game. Physical and quick defending. And then great anticipation, great jump to get up in the play and make plays happen. So I thought he was heavily involved in our offensive attack tonight, both off the rush, and in the O zone play."

 

[The Kingslayer]

Yeah I know, and I get that it's not an apples-to-apples sort of comparison. It's just that he's reminding me of Skoula, especially this year. I still think it applies insofar that Skoula was more effective when he dialed it back, and I agree with Henchy that Bo has to do so as well. I unfortunately don't think the ceiling isn't as high as we all hoped, even with all the major injury setbacks. Whatever the case, the way he's playing now is simply not working.

And while it has been mythologized to the point of absurdity, he DID play a more dialed-down version of his game in the Cup run, and was indeed excellent.

Admittedly, Skoula displayed his best defense alongside a Rob Blake who was playing out of his GD mind (and I will forever remain insanely bitter about that f***ing ASG in Minnesota that year but I've beaten that horse to death several times) so maybe it was all a friggin' mirage...

What happened? Wasnt that when Sakic got MVP?

 

[NOTENOUGHRYJOTHINGS]

I'll just point out that I've seen you make this comparison to Skoula before, and even though I disagree strongly with it, I didn't respond to it, because I know it's just an opinion, so I don't take much issue with it.

Just my 2 cents, but Skoula played that way into his 30's, and probably beyond. Bo is 22 and the most games he's played in a regular season is 42 last year. He hasn't had any stability at all in his pro career, which is very important for young players.

He's still got to work things out, and has growing pains to get through, like all young defenseman, and that's hard to do when you're bouncing in and out of the lineup for long periods of times, with serious injuries that have made him question whether or not he wants to keep playing.

It all comes down to whether Byram can develop into a top pair or at least solid #3.

 

[Foppa2118]

It all comes down to whether Byram can develop into a top pair or at least solid #3.

Both would be very important for this team. Especially as Toews gets older, and Cale deals with his own injury issues.

They also don't have any other D men with a ton of offensive production potential. Maybe Malinski, but it's too early to tell. He's also 3 years older than Bo, as weird as that sounds.

 

[Pokecheque]

What happened? Wasnt that when Sakic got MVP?

No we’re talking 2003-04. I still say Blake played far and away his best hockey for the Avs to start that season. Then he went to the ASG in Minnesota (I remember because the jerseys that year were basically Wylde sweaters), I want to say it was Kovalchuk who slid on the ice and hit his knee in a really innocuous play—didn’t even knock him over—he got hurt and missed time, and when he came back he just wasn’t the same. He still put up all kinds of points (the following season too) but I still maintain that one stupid f***ing ASG play derailed a Norris-worthy season.

 

[John Mandalorian]

Byram seems a little in between now and he’s in his own head. It seems like he might start out thinking one thing then he second guesses himself and he shifts to something else. Baseball offers a decent analogy here: he looks like he’s ahead of the curve ball but behind the fast ball. And it’s likely him second guessing himself.

The sophomore slump thing might be true. In scenarios that people remember Byram doing well, it’s been in big games, tournaments, and in abbreviated seasons. He hasn’t really had to endure the dog days of a season and the grind that comes with that yet. Maybe he’s the kind of guy that does better in big games and kind of shuffles his feet during the more tedious ones?

It’s all speculation and it’s hard to know why. Lots of WAGs flying around and maybe also in this post to some extent.

But those big games did happen.

 

[Ceremony]

I don't believe you've all actually made me go back and look at the highlights again, but that first goal is all on Byram either being an idiot or being so paralysed by the amount of time he thinks he has he ends up doing something stupid anyway. He has the puck in his own end in a good ten feet of space all around him. He has a free player going up the ice on the right hand side. The entire left hand side of the ice is empty, and I'm pretty sure the other two Blackhawks are behind the red line. Rather than make a safe play or even a percentage play, he does what the AI did in NHL 09 and tries a stupid dangle around the guy skating towards him. Only this time it was Bedard and, well, he's half-decent.

Byram has been very dumb a lot this year with really basic stuff like this. That run of puck over the glass penalties is a good example. He's obviously talented, he's obviously capable of being better than he's been this year, but he really needs to learn when he should try things and when he shouldn't. Right now he's not good enough to cover when it goes wrong. With Girard out and Makar questionable, he needs to play more, but it doesn't seem like he can be trusted to right now. That's not good for him or the team.

 

[Alienblood]

The best I've ever seen Bo play was in the WJC gold medal game.

Most who watched him, were really impressed. And he played on his toes the whole game, dominating play with the puck, and pushing the pace.

Bednar also said after the WJC he loved the way he played in that game. He also said recently that (if I remember the quote exactly) "We all know Bo can be a dominant defenseman."

He wants D like him pushing the pace, driving play offensively, and getting involved in the O zone, not sitting back, playing a simple game. That's for D like Manson, EJ, and JJ, and even them he wants them involved if they see the opportunity.

Bedsy also said this about a game in the past Bo played.

"He was one of the guys that impressed me the most tonight. Like for a complete game. Physical and quick defending. And then great anticipation, great jump to get up in the play and make plays happen. So I thought he was heavily involved in our offensive attack tonight, both off the rush, and in the O zone play."

exactly this and he was drafted to play that way.

 

[AllAboutAvs]

The best I've ever seen Bo play was in the WJC gold medal game.

Most who watched him, were really impressed. And he played on his toes the whole game, dominating play with the puck, and pushing the pace.

Bednar also said after the WJC he loved the way he played in that game. He also said recently that (if I remember the quote exactly) "We all know Bo can be a dominant defenseman."

He wants D like him pushing the pace, driving play offensively, and getting involved in the O zone, not sitting back, playing a simple game. That's for D like Manson, EJ, and JJ, and even them he wants them involved if they see the opportunity.

Bedsy also said this about a game in the past Bo played.

"He was one of the guys that impressed me the most tonight. Like for a complete game. Physical and quick defending. And then great anticipation, great jump to get up in the play and make plays happen. So I thought he was heavily involved in our offensive attack tonight, both off the rush, and in the O zone play."

Although you are right about the way Bednar wants his dmen to play but his system is also built on moving the puck quickly to exit the zone and that is something Byram has problems with this year. He was much better at it in the past. As I already said a few times now Byram holds on to the puck just a bit too long. This is a good example of it.

The play develops pretty fast but it always does in the NHL. If you look at Pokecheque's frame you can see Byram has his head up. He can see Bedard coming and he can see Drouin starting making his turn to head up the ice. At that point he has nobody close to him except for Bedard closing in but still at a good distance. All he had to do was to softly send the puck off the board where the ref is and let Drouin skates into it. It requires him making a quick decision but that is what those guys are paid to do. After sending the puck in that area he could have keep skating up the ice to provide offense and an option for Drouin. Drouin could have passed it back to him while at full strides. He would have had Malinski and Mikko behind him to cover for him. That is what Bednar wants to see from his dmen and forwards.

Just for the record I do not think he sucks like some here think but he has not been very good lthis season. I do not want him traded unless he brings back a a very good 2C either by himself or with a + if required. IMO most of his troubles comes from being too slow to move the puck. He just need to go back to moving the puck quicker and then join the rush.Simplify his game and I believe he will be back to being the Byram we all saw against TBL in the playoffs.

 

[AvsCOL]

Good heavens they JUST got their flagging power play back on track. The car is running again, they don’t need to set it on fire there, Jiffy Lube.

Both goals the other night were plays down low with MacKinnon/Drouin/Nichushkin, but sure, go on.

 

[Pokecheque]

Both goals the other night were plays down low with MacKinnon/Drouin/Nichushkin, but sure, go on.

Right and I’m sure Toews played absolutely no part in getting the puck up the ice and into the zone, it didn’t even touch his stick, right?

 

[Foppa2118]

Although you are right about the way Bednar wants his dmen to play but his system is also built on moving the puck quickly to exit the zone and that is something Byram has problems with this year. He was much better at it in the past. As I already said a few times now Byram holds on to the puck just a bit too long. This is a good example of it.

I agree.

Personally, I think right now it stems from a bit of lack of confidence, and him being extra hard on himself after every mistake (you could see it in his reaction after plays earlier in the season) after a slow start, and after playing on his off side with G, which was causing him issues making outlet passes on his backhand.

Bo's a bit like Nate, he thrives off confidence.

He just needs to work his way through it. So far (knock on wood) he might be on his way to his first full or semi full season of his pro career.

One thing that I don't think gets mentioned, is that when you play a full season, you experience lots of ups and downs, and young players, especially defenseman, learn how to work their way through that.

If you only play 30-40 games a season, you don't always get that opportunity. Sometimes you don't have that rough patch at the beginning of the season. Sometimes they're during the middle or the end.

In the past, he hasn't really had a rough patch like this to begin a season, but this year he has, and he's learning how to battle through it, and get his game back on track.

 

[Foppa2118]

The entire left hand side of the ice is empty, and I'm pretty sure the other two Blackhawks are behind the red line. Rather than make a safe play or even a percentage play

This was acknowledged multiple times and never in dispute.

 

[Vk1ing]

3 rounds of boxing

I would watch it lol

 

[AllAboutAvs]

I agree.

Personally, I think right now it stems from a bit of lack of confidence, and him being extra hard on himself after every mistake (you could see it in his reaction after plays earlier in the season) after a slow start, and after playing on his off side with G, which was causing him issues making outlet passes on his backhand.

Yeah IMO this had a lot more to do with his struggles this year than people are admitting on this boards. Playing your off side is hard. Not everybody can do it. In fact a lot more can't than can. It is also a lot harder for dmen than forwards. I am convinced he lost a lot of confidence during that time and once you lose confidence it takes time to gain it back.

But now he is back to his strong side so he needs to address his weaknesses. He doesn't have the skating and the hands Makar has so he needs to realize that. Until he does he will struggle. He should be more of a Toews than a Makar. Makar creates and very often executes the rush. Makar can do that because he has the skating to separate himself from the defenders. Toews on the other hand most of the time starts the transition than joins the rush. IMO that's what Byram needs to go back to...not trying to execute the rush himself because he doesn't have the skating outburst that Makar has. When he succeeds in carrying the puck on the rush it is because he had space to gain speed. He needs to recognize when he had that space and when he doesn't. Make a quick outlet pass than join the rush and his turnovers will be reduced considerably.

 

[The Kingslayer]

No we’re talking 2003-04. I still say Blake played far and away his best hockey for the Avs to start that season. Then he went to the ASG in Minnesota (I remember because the jerseys that year were basically Wylde sweaters), I want to say it was Kovalchuk who slid on the ice and hit his knee in a really innocuous play—didn’t even knock him over—he got hurt and missed time, and when he came back he just wasn’t the same. He still put up all kinds of points (the following season too) but I still maintain that one stupid f***ing ASG play derailed a Norris-worthy season.

Yah 03-04 Sakic won the MVP. I remember that game and that season. Avs were red hot headed into the break. Aebischer was great the first half and then it all fell to shit. I do remember Blake being amazing that first half aswell but I didnt know about the All-star game injury. Crazy I thought he just came back down to earth in the second half.

I don't believe you've all actually made me go back and look at the highlights again, but that first goal is all on Byram either being an idiot or being so paralysed by the amount of time he thinks he has he ends up doing something stupid anyway. He has the puck in his own end in a good ten feet of space all around him. He has a free player going up the ice on the right hand side. The entire left hand side of the ice is empty, and I'm pretty sure the other two Blackhawks are behind the red line. Rather than make a safe play or even a percentage play, he does what the AI did in NHL 09 and tries a stupid dangle around the guy skating towards him. Only this time it was Bedard and, well, he's half-decent.

Byram has been very dumb a lot this year with really basic stuff like this. That run of puck over the glass penalties is a good example. He's obviously talented, he's obviously capable of being better than he's been this year, but he really needs to learn when he should try things and when he shouldn't. Right now he's not good enough to cover when it goes wrong. With Girard out and Makar questionable, he needs to play more, but it doesn't seem like he can be trusted to right now. That's not good for him or the team.

I think @dahrougem2 is correct on that Bo play. He wanted to walk Bedard there. He wanted to show up the kid. What a stupid decision as that was the turning point.

 

[henchman21]

I think @dahrougem2 is correct on that Bo play. He wanted to walk Bedard there. He wanted to show up the kid. What a stupid decision as that was the turning point.

Yup...

 

[Pokecheque]

Yah 03-04 Sakic won the MVP. I remember that game and that season. Avs were red hot headed into the break. Aebischer was great the first half and then it all fell to shit. I do remember Blake being amazing that first half aswell but I didnt know about the All-star game injury. Crazy I thought he just came back down to earth in the second half.

Ohhhhhh sorry for some reason I didn’t realize you were referring to the ASG MVP. Yeah now I remember.

I still remember that slight collision happening and thinking “I bet Blake got hurt there.” He finished the game and then missed time once the regular season started up again. I was so goddamn pissed. To this day I have an irrational fear of Avs players playing in the ASG and I don’t partake in fan voting because of that.

I think @dahrougem2 is correct on that Bo play. He wanted to walk Bedard there. He wanted to show up the kid. What a stupid decision as that was the turning point.

Yep. That’s why I called him lazy and arrogant on that play. Just an absolutely selfish decision on his part on top of being utterly stupid. I’m guessing if Makar was playing, he might have gotten benched for that.

 

[Foppa2118]

I think @dahrougem2 is correct on that Bo play. He wanted to walk Bedard there. He wanted to show up the kid. What a stupid decision as that was the turning point.

I don't think it had anything to do with Bedard.

I just watched the play again. He had about .5 seconds between when he got his head up to make a play, and when Bedard picked it off. I got to "one one thous..." in my count.

Not really enough time to process who it was and decide to show him up.

Also worth mentioning like the broadcast did, how aggressively Bedard was cherry picking all game. He would have been the third man in the zone if he doesn't pick that off, with a potential 3 on 2 going the other way.

Edit: Also that wasn't really the turning point. That was the first goal. They came back and made it 2-1. I feel compelled to point out again how much more time we're talking about Bo, than Toews, even though Toews mistakes led to the GTG and GWG. I know you share my feelings on his mistakes though.