Auston Matthews vs Leon Draisaitl vs Mitch Marner

[Sidney the Kidney]

I mean, nobody questioned that the Leafs guys are better offensively. But they give up just as much defensively and therefore harm the team at the same rate of -0.71 Goal Diff per 60.

Which then goes back to me saying, so the argument comes down to goal differential being the main thing that matters in determining whether a player is "better or worse" than another? Because it's pretty clear which group of forwards give their top line more offensive help/support and it comes down to which ones play better defensively.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Hope you stick with this argument then if/when a poll comes up asking which team has worse depth. You better not flip-flop and start arguing that Toronto's a much deeper team than the Oilers.

Also kind of funny you voted for Kerfoot in that Kerfoot vs. McCann thread despite the fact McCann's blowing him out of the water in all those categories you like to bring up.

Yes, i am using the same metrics I always use because I'm biased against the leafs and want to trash them. Good holding me accountable

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Yes, i am using the same metrics I always use because I'm biased against the leafs and want to trash them. Good holding me accountable

Actually, in this case it seems as though you're using these metrics to make Matthews look good.

But again, why'd you vote for Kerfoot in that poll with McCann? McCann's stats that you like to use are vastly superior, so I'm curious what you used to choose Kerfoot if you believe these stats are that important in determining "value".

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Actually, in this case it seems as though you're using these metrics to make Matthews look good.

But again, why'd you vote for Kerfoot in that poll with McCann? McCann's stats that you like to use are vastly superior, so I'm curious what you used to choose Kerfoot if you believe these stats are that important in determining "value".

Can you stop this habit of weaseling your way out of a discussion by bringing up something irrelevant? Edmonton and Toronto's play has nothing to do with McCann vs Kerfoot. If you want to start a discussion there because it's a big concern to you, feel free. Doing it here feels like deflection

 

[Aceboogie]

Te gap between Draisaitl and Marner when contracts are considered is astronomical now

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Can you stop this habit of weaseling your way out of a discussion by bringing up something irrelevant? Edmonton and Toronto's play has nothing to do with McCann vs Kerfoot. If you want to start a discussion there because it's a big concern to you, feel free. Doing it here feels like deflection

I've literally addressed the point you've brought up in this thread multiple times and explained why I believe your usage of those advanced stats is questionable to arrive at the conclusion you arrived at (ie. Toronto's bottom nine being worse than the Oilers'). How am I deflecting when I've already covered everything you touched on? I've literally addressed the "why" I think you're wrong, and provided the stats to back up my reasoning. What else was I supposed to address of yours that I didn't and thus am "deflecting"?

My mentioning of that other thread directly relates to the validity of these advanced stats you mentioned in this thread, as it makes me question why you'd die on your hill in this thread about them being indicators of "better or worse" but not apply them when they didn't favor a player on your team? It's about consistency and whether or not your arguments in this thread are ones you truly believe or are convenient only when they fit the argument you're making at the time.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Which then goes back to me saying, so the argument comes down to goal differential being the main thing that matters in determining whether a player is "better or worse" than another? Because it's pretty clear which group of forwards give their top line more offensive help/support and it comes down to which ones play better defensively.

I am not saying one player is better or worse than another. I’m saying that to date, one set of 16 skaters and 2 goaltenders have performed roughly equal to another.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I am not saying one player is better or worse than another. I’m saying that to date, one set of 16 skaters and 2 goaltenders have performed roughly equal to another.

But I didn't originally quote you or your point? I quoted someone who literally used the word "worse" to describe Toronto without Matthews versus the Oilers without their top line. And the only way one can conclude that is if one ignores actual production of those players minus the top line and focuses exclusively on certain "advanced stats".

By the way, I think those numbers are awfully skewed due to Hutchinson and how terrible he's been. Most teams will see their various GF% and overall "against" numbers hurt when their goalie puts up stats that wouldn't even look good in the 1980's. Do they still favor the Oilers minus McDavid/Draisaitl if you focused on the games Andersen started?

 

[Senor Catface]

Matthews + Marner= 44 points
Drai + Drai = 41 points

 

[La Bamba]

Matthews + Marner= 44 points
Drai + Drai = 41 points

spat my water out lmao

 

[Cup or Bust]

Right now, I would have to go with Draisaitl. It certainly it helps that he plays with McDavid, but Matthews has played on a pretty good offensive team hasn't really had a breakthrough season and hasn't done some of the impressive things Drasaitl has done thus far. if Matthews has a breakthrough season and can establish himself as a franchise player, that could change, but what Drasaitl has done and is doing is quite impressive even if he is playing with the best player in the world.

 

[McFlash97]

5 points for McDraisaitl. Can we just end this dumb poll ? Matthew's doesnt even sniff the guys jockstrap at this point.

 

[Quality Oil]

Matthews isn't even in the conversation with Drai.

 

[Aceboogie]

Better poll is Matthews + Marner or Draisaitl

 

[snipes]

Matthews + Marner= 44 points
Drai + Drai = 41 points

Hahah Draisaitl is just in a different realm. There’s no one even close to him on the Leafs.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Hahah Draisaitl is just in a different realm. There’s no one even close to him on the Leafs.

I'm sure there's some advanced stat that says otherwise.

 

[snipes]

I'm sure there's some advanced stat that says otherwise.

Some p/60 or something bro.

Draisaitl almost has as many points as Matthews and Marner combined while actually knowing what playing defence means.

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

Matthews isn't even in the conversation with Drai.

Sure he is. All you need is the one Leafs fan to cherry pick one stat, make that one stat the end all be all for evaluating players, and make sure that stat is favorable for a Leaf.

 

[Rhaegar Targaryen]

I would take Drai over a combination of Matthews and Marner

 

[King1s]

Another lol worthy poll. Draisaitl and it is not even remotely close.

 

[King1s]

You think Matthews will never hit 100 points? Seriously?

Why don't we wait for him to hit 80 points? Looking good this season, on pace for doing it!

 

[ohheyhemsky]

Leafs fans getting real quiet now.

Good.

 

[GMofOilers]

Matthews + Marner= 44 points
Drai + Drai = 41 points

/thread

Lock er down

 

[McFlash97]

Matthews on some next level shit to start this season.


26 points in 20 games. Might be a career year.. congrats. 95 ? 100 ? who knows


however to some Leaf fanatics ... keep looking up ....Leon is at 41 ...

German Gretzky.

 

[koyvoo]

Draisaitl quickest player to hit 40 pts since Lemieux in 2002/03

Matthews isn’t even in the tier below Drai. He’s like 2 maybe 3 tiers below him at this point.