Player Discussion Auston Matthews Discussion

[Stephen]

Yeah, I remember that too. Kariya was quite the player.

I also remember most of a season where AM34 had Johnsson and Kapanen as his wingers. Somehow turned them into 20 G scorers.

That Kapanen Johnsson experiment didn’t last very long.

 

[ToneDog]

Mats Sundin did manage 114 points in a shoot ‘em out vintage year of 1992-93 while still in Quebec, but I don’t think he had the tools or the running mates to approach anything like 70 goals like this. He did come in 4th in 2002 during a low scoring year but it was a completely different game back then and the sport was littered with Hall of Fame caliber goalies as well.

No Leaf ever has had the tools Matty has. This guy has done it with whatever line mates Keefe gives him. He has made Domi a valuable member of this team and a lot of money on his next contract.

 

[kb]

That Kapanen Johnsson experiment didn’t last very long.

It was long enough.....Marner wasn't playing with AM (Tavares all year), and that was the year Nylander held out, and then didn't play a whole lot with AM once he did return.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

pretty amazing to get over 50 ESG.

really hope he hits 70.

Zach Hyman is a national treasure. final answer.

 

[ToneDog]

View attachment 850455

pretty amazing to get over 50 ESG.

really hope he hits 70.

Zach Hyman is a national treasure. final answer.

Unless he bets against himself, I think he is a lock to score 70. Hell he might get to 75 if he keeps his foot on the gas and the two Florida teams mail in those final 2 games.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

Florida teams mail in those final 2 games.

They'll double team him to deny him ... book it.

 

[ToneDog]

They'll double team him to deny him ... book it.

Most likely he is satisfied with 70 and looks to the playoffs. Some of the shine on his season will be tarnished if they are punted in round #1.

 

[Stephen]

Most likely he is satisfied with 70 and looks to the playoffs. Some of the shine on his season will be tarnished if they are punted in round #1.

I think they need to blur the lines between the regular season and playoffs mentally. If Matthews scores 70 by the end of the regular season, my thinking is he’s better served thinking of Game 1 as Game 83, first goal in the playoffs as goal 71, and keep running the same race. The games will be harder but think of it as the same race vs finishing a marathon only to start a new marathon.

 

[Scion]

As of this moment, AM34 is tied for the 8th most even strength goals ever in one season with 51. 8th in the history of the league

One more and he moves into a tie for 6th most ever in a season.

We truly are witnessing someone doing something historic. Yet I see posters in here shitting on him, and/or saying what he's doing is nothing special and that all the others are ahead of him by a significant margin. He is the best (or one of) defensive C by most metrics too.

Stop catering to other fanbases feelings people. He is as good as any player in the league right now, and has been for years.

Agreed, for my money he is the 2nd best player in the world and has as good as case as anyone, if not better, for 2024 MVP.

Let's not get carried away here. I haven't seen anyone say that what he's doing is "nothing special". I'm skeptical that you have either but if you really have, can you quote them so I can go yell at them?

Yes this is a special player having a special season. As far as him having been as good as any player "for years", he wasn't that great last season. It's a ton of fun watching him score goals like crazy but I see no need to re-write history.

His wrist was clearly injured last year, and he still finished top 8 by most GAR metrics.

 

[Stephen]

No Leaf ever has had the tools Matty has. This guy has done it with whatever line mates Keefe gives him. He has made Domi a valuable member of this team and a lot of money on his next contract.

Matthews raw tools are off the charts in all of hockey not only the Leafs. Hence the desire to see him get to his rightful place in that Art Ross race.

 

[ToneDog]

Matthews raw tools are off the charts in all of hockey not only the Leafs. Hence the desire to see him get to his rightful place in that Art Ross race.

IMO, the Hart it is coming down to Kutch vs Matty with Mac finishing 3rd. Art Ross winner vs Rocket Richard winner.

 

[BraveCanadian]

IMO, the Hart it is coming down to Kutch vs Matty with Mac finishing 3rd. Art Ross winner vs Rocket Richard winner.

70 goals is getting a lot of mileage in the Toronto media but it is pretty tough to discount a guy as dialed in as MacKinnon has been all year.

McDavid's missed games have likely taken him out of the running but he'll be up there.

 

[ToneDog]

70 goals is getting a lot of mileage in the Toronto media but it is pretty tough to discount a guy as dialed in as MacKinnon has been all year.

McDavid's missed games have likely taken him out of the running but he'll be up there.

Agreed MacKinnon has has a solid year but IMO he is nulled out by Kutch (141 points on 281 Tampa goals - 50%) so if I am voting it would be Mr. Points vs Mr. Goal Scorer.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Agreed MacKinnon has has a solid year but IMO he is nulled out by Kutch (141 points on 281 Tampa goals - 50%) so if I am voting it would be Mr. Points vs Mr. Goal Scorer.

Personally I'd take MacKinnon over either of them this year but Kucherov really makes a case with how he has dragged Tampa through the year.

 

[Stephen]

Agreed MacKinnon has has a solid year but IMO he is nulled out by Kutch (141 points on 281 Tampa goals - 50%) so if I am voting it would be Mr. Points vs Mr. Goal Scorer.

I ran the numbers last week and Matthews has about 22-23 games with 0 points and Mackinnon, Kucherov and McDavid were around 12 each.

So I don’t think it’s a choice of Matthews being Mr Goal Scorer vs someone else being Mr Points. It’s a bit worse consistency and about 10 more games where he’s not producing any offense than the Art Ross leaders.

Overall if he had about 10-15 more points, similar 0 point games (less variance) - I don’t care if they’re secondary assists - it would balance out to avoid it 70 goals, 120 points that would get him much closer to the Hart favourite conversation. Right now he’s also looking up at Panarin and Pastrnak in the point race and that’s not ideal.

The fact that we have to explain away a 35 point gap, that kind of takes Matthews out of the running for serious Hart talk. JMO.

 

[Jojalu]

Personally I'd take MacKinnon over either of them this year but Kucherov really makes a case with how he has dragged Tampa through the year.

100 assists is rarer than 70 goals.

I don't know how Kuch or McDavid wouldn't be ahead of both Matthews and Mack.

I ran the numbers last week and Matthews has about 22-23 games with 0 points and Mackinnon, Kucherov and McDavid were around 12 each.

So I don’t think it’s a choice of Matthews being Mr Goal Scorer vs someone else being Mr Points. It’s a bit worse consistency and about 10 more games where he’s not producing any offense than the Art Ross leaders.

Overall if he had about 10-15 more points, similar 0 point games (less variance) - I don’t care if they’re secondary assists - it would balance out to avoid it 70 goals, 120 points that would get him much closer to the Hart favourite conversation. Right now he’s also looking up at Panarin and Pastrnak in the point race and that’s not ideal.

The fact that we have to explain away a 35 point gap, that kind of takes Matthews out of the running for serious Hart talk. JMO.

I think Matthews doesn't win because he wasn't even the best player on the team for almost half of the year.

Kuch and Mack have been the guys from the get go. The points don't mean anything. That's what the Art Ross is for. While rare, even a goalie or defenseman can win the Hart

 

[Stephen]

100 assists is rarer than 70 goals.

I don't know how Kuch or McDavid wouldn't be ahead of both Matthews and Mack.


I think Matthews doesn't win because he wasn't even the best player on the team for almost half of the year.

Kuch and Mack have been the guys from the get go. The points don't mean anything. That's what the Art Ross is for. While rare, even a goalie or defenseman can win the Hart

Yeah I agree with your thoughts overall.

My point about the variance in overall points between Mackinnon and Kucherov to Matthews is it’s also a product of their consistency vs Matthews greater peaks and valleys throughout the year. At the end of the day he’s also a high production forward and not a D or a G so he has to live in the same neighbourhood.

As far as this goals vs points notion, I love the 70 but I don’t agree that it’s about goals over points… in all my years watching it’s always been about the glamour numbers of the Art Ross first. Look at all the Rocket winners pre-Ovechkin, I don’t think that group is the crème de la crème. Even with Ovechkin, he got himself an Art Ross.

With Matthews it’s easy. Just get those extra points even if they’re assists and be more consistent throughout the year with fewer slumps.

 

[Boxscore]

I have been very (albeit fairly imho) critical of Matthews the last couple of years. But, no matter what, 68 freaking goals is grotesque. If he hits 70, it will be an amazing feat for him, the Leafs, and the NHL in general.

 

[Jojalu]

Yeah I agree with your thoughts overall.

My point about the variance in overall points between Mackinnon and Kucherov to Matthews is it’s also a product of their consistency vs Matthews greater peaks and valleys throughout the year. At the end of the day he’s also a high production forward and not a D or a G so he has to live in the same neighbourhood.

As far as this goals vs points notion, I love the 70 but I don’t agree that it’s about goals over points… in all my years watching it’s always been about the glamour numbers of the Art Ross first. Look at all the Rocket winners pre-Ovechkin, I don’t think that group is the crème de la crème. Even with Ovechkin, he got himself an Art Ross.

With Matthews it’s easy. Just get those extra points even if they’re assists and be more consistent throughout the year with fewer slumps.

The 22 games does seem like a lot for a top 6 scorer.

Incredible what he has done in the other 3/4 of the season.

 

[authentic]

As of this moment, AM34 is tied for the 8th most even strength goals ever in one season with 51. 8th in the history of the league

One more and he moves into a tie for 6th most ever in a season.

We truly are witnessing someone doing something historic. Yet I see posters in here shitting on him, and/or saying what he's doing is nothing special and that all the others are ahead of him by a significant margin. He is the best (or one of) defensive C by most metrics too.

Stop catering to other fanbases feelings people. He is as good as any player in the league right now, and has been for years.

They wouldn’t want to sacrifice the likes they get for being “objective”

 

[Pi]

As of this moment, AM34 is tied for the 8th most even strength goals ever in one season with 51. 8th in the history of the league

One more and he moves into a tie for 6th most ever in a season.

We truly are witnessing someone doing something historic. Yet I see posters in here shitting on him, and/or saying what he's doing is nothing special and that all the others are ahead of him by a significant margin. He is the best (or one of) defensive C by most metrics too.

Stop catering to other fanbases feelings people. He is as good as any player in the league right now, and has been for years.

I'm just surprised how much hate he gets though. If he played for any other team, people would recognize his greatness at a much higher level.

There is a majority of dumbasses on HFboards who have convinced themselves that Ovi scoring 65 goals was better than Matthews this season. It's absolutely bonkers.

I get that they are just hating but it's still sad.

I don't want Edmonton to win but I can't just hate McDavid and say he's not good when he's clearly the modern GOAT.

 

[CapspaceKiller]

I'm just surprised how much hate he gets though. If he played for any other team, people would recognize his greatness at a much higher level.

There is a majority of dumbasses on HFboards who have convinced themselves that Ovi scoring 65 goals was better than Matthews this season. It's absolutely bonkers.

I get that they are just hating but it's still sad.

I don't want Edmonton to win but I can't just hate McDavid and say he's not good when he's clearly the modern GOAT.

Yeah, its nuts that an Elite 2-way center who has 68 goals in 78 games, somehow is still getting ripped.

He's an all-time, generational player and hasn't been appreciated like one yet.

 

[verdi]

I looked up the season goal record.
I appreciate the "modern day" caveat, but man no one's going to unseat Wayne on this one....That being said, why is 70 important?

 

[Confucius]

They'll double team him to deny him ... book it.

Probably, after all they don’t want to face Papi when he is feeling great.

 

[Sypher04]

I looked up the season goal record.
I appreciate the "modern day" caveat, but man no one's going to unseat Wayne on this one....That being said, why is 70 important?

Because no one has done it in 30 years