Athletic NHL99 Countdown

[Gurglesons]

You don't buy that an offensive defenseman getting to play his career with 2 of the best players in he league at their peak perhaps had an effect on his career? lol

Is Erik Karlsson a joke to you?

Letang never paced for 35 points in a season like EK did a few years ago.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Letang never paced for 35 points in a season like EK did a few years ago.

While a fun and snappy one liner you're wrong lmao his first 3 full seasons

17 points in 63 games
33 points in 74 games
27 points in 73 games

My turn, Kris Letang was never a first team all-star or won a norris trophy

 

[Buck Naked]

No, but I don’t buy the “Letang played with Sid and Malkin” narrative.

He’s the most consistent offensive defenseman in that era and despite his injuries has a chance to retire with 800 points.

He was great, don't get me wrong. Health is part of a player's legacy though. Take Suter as an example. He's on his 18th season in the league, Letang is on his 17th. Suter has played 1333 games, Letang 974. That difference is massive! Letang's big problem is that he couldn't stay healthy, and when he did, he didn't reach the peak levels of Erik Karlsson, Keith, Weber, Chara, and others. Had Karlsson been healthy his entire career he would've most likely been a top 40 player. at least, yet he's not because of his injuries. I believe the same goes for Letang. Sure, he did great when he was healthy but he couldn't consistently stay in the lineup. I'd swap him for Kopitar or Drai in a second on this list.

 

[Gurglesons]

While a fun and snappy one liner you're wrong lmao his first 3 full seasons

17 points in 63 games
33 points in 74 games
27 points in 73 games

My turn, Kris Letang was never a first team all-star or won a norris trophy

Good point lol

 

[Vilica]

After the Athletic released their ballots, I spent time inputting each ballot so I could audit them, and the first part of that is to release the names that did not make the top 100. There were a total of 32 players named on a ballot that did not accrue enough points, with Marc-Andre Fleury as the 100th player with 85 points.

Rank	Name	Duhatschek	McIndoe	Dom L	Wheeler	Mirtle	Mendes	Goldman	Gentille	Russo	Points
101	Phil Housley	NR	NR	80	69	98	81	NR	94	NR	83
102	Anze Kopitar	100	92	76	NR	96	NR	72	96	94	81
103	Larry Murphy	87	100	NR	71	NR	82	NR	92	NR	73
104	Cam Neely	NR	84	NR	NR	NR	60	NR	NR	91	68
105	Frank Mahovlich	NR	NR	NR	43	NR	NR	NR	NR	NR	58
106	Yvan Cournoyer	86	NR	NR	98	91	NR	98	NR	80	52
107	Brad Marchand	NR	NR	82	NR	NR	NR	73	99	NR	49
108	Michel Goulet	89	NR	NR	NR	NR	66	NR	NR	NR	47
109	Jacques Lemaire	92	71	NR	NR	NR	94	NR	NR	NR	46
110	Leon Draisaitl	98	NR	81	95	85	NR	NR	NR	NR	45
111	Tim Horton	NR	58	NR	NR	NR	NR	NR	NR	NR	43
112	Jonathan Quick	88	NR	NR	NR	NR	NR	NR	NR	72	42
113	Glenn Anderson	72	NR	NR	NR	NR	NR	NR	NR	88	42
114	Pierre Turgeon	NR	NR	NR	72	NR	NR	89	NR	NR	41
115	Keith Tkachuk	NR	NR	83	NR	NR	100	80	NR	NR	40
116	Markus Naslund	NR	NR	85	NR	100	NR	85	NR	NR	33
117	Roman Josi	NR	93	87	NR	NR	NR	94	NR	NR	29
118	John LeClair	NR	NR	72	NR	NR	NR	NR	NR	NR	29
119	Rogie Vachon	74	NR	NR	NR	NR	NR	NR	NR	NR	27
120	Kent Nilsson	NR	NR	NR	75	NR	NR	NR	NR	NR	26
121	Daniel Alfredsson	NR	NR	92	NR	NR	NR	87	NR	NR	23
122	Pekka Rinne	NR	83	NR	NR	NR	NR	NR	NR	NR	18
123	Corey Perry	NR	NR	84	NR	NR	NR	NR	NR	NR	17
124	Doug Wilson	93	96	NR	NR	NR	NR	NR	NR	99	15
125	Patrik Elias	NR	NR	96	NR	NR	NR	95	NR	NR	11
126	Peter Bondra	NR	NR	91	NR	NR	NR	NR	NR	NR	10
127	Dave Keon	NR	NR	NR	NR	97	NR	NR	NR	96	9
128	Rick Tocchet	NR	NR	NR	NR	NR	93	NR	NR	NR	8
129	Dino Ciccarelli	NR	NR	NR	NR	NR	NR	NR	NR	93	8
130	Sergei Gonchar	NR	NR	NR	100	NR	NR	NR	95	NR	7
131	Mark Giordano	NR	NR	94	NR	NR	NR	NR	NR	NR	7
132	Ryan Getzlaf	NR	NR	NR	NR	NR	NR	96	NR	NR	5

Housley finishes at 101, Kopitar at 102. Mahovlich the highest balloted player unranked, appearing only on Wheeler's ballot at 43rd. Other singleton ballots include Duhatschek with Rogie Vachon at 74, McIndoe with Horton at 58 and Rinne at 83, Dom with LeClair at 72, Perry at 84, Bondra at 91 and Giordano at 94, Wheeler with Nilsson at 75, Mendes with Tocchet at 93, Goldman with Getzlaf at 96, and Russo with Ciccarelli at 93.

Given that only 132 names were listed, I see why seventieslord is correct in asking for 120 player lists. Most of those 32 players are going to be the ones added to spots 101-120 on all the lists. The players in this section who have the best chance of moving into the top 100 if it were redone in 5 years time or so would probably be Kopitar, Marchand, Draisaitl, and maybe Josi.

 

[eli4spetterss0n]

I’m thinking of asking young Dom Luszczyszyn to spreadsheet The Athletic’s list without his and Shayna Goldman’s contribution. Thing might almost be readable at that point. Think he’ll go for it?

The roundtable was revelatory, with both Dom and Shayna coming off as the project’s lightweights, resorting to irreverence when pressed about some outlier picks. Athletic probably shouldn’t’ve pulled the curtain back so far. I’d hate for Orr-at-eight to become canon. Maybe it’s a good thing Ath is paywalled.

Eric Duhatschek breezily claims this is only the third “definitive” “top 100” list in creation, following the ‘97 THN and the 2017 unordered league-official lists. Agree/disagree? I don’t hold with every final placement on HFB’s lists but the intellectual rigour behind them is unmissably honest and hearty.

I think the younger element of the panel misfired in their mission. Shame, because it was a chance to educate younger/newer readers who care at least enough to spend money on their site. To wit:

Goldman, I’m willing to bet, had never heard some of the names before the assignment. She had her parents vet parts of her list. Also: Potvin at #51.

Dom writes about his “indifference to nostalgia.”

Michael Russo admitted, “As I got deeper into my rankings, I felt I was throwing the proverbial dart at the dartboard.” And this was from a guy with 28 years in the field, with the good sense to “contend we should have expanded the voting to a wider variety of people, and not just on The Athletic staff.”

I was curious so here ya go:

Rank	Player	Score	Diff. from Athletic List
1	Wayne Gretzky	700	0
2	Mario Lemieux	690	0
3	Bobby Orr	689	0
4	Sidney Crosby	676	0
5	Jaromir Jagr	663	0
6	Alex Ovechkin	660	0
7	Dominik Hasek	655	0
8	Nicklas Lidstrom	652	0
9	Phil Esposito	641	0
10	Raymond Bourque	637	0
11	Patrick Roy	622	0
12	Mike Bossy	621	0
13	Joe Sakic	599	0
14	Guy Lafleur	591	0
15	Denis Potvin	589	4
16	Mark Messier	583	1
17	Steve Yzerman	581	-1
18	Connor McDavid	579	-3
19	Marcel Dionne	567	1
20	Larry Robinson	561	4
21	Martin Brodeur	558	0
22	Paul Coffey	556	-4
23	Brett Hull	535	-1
24	Teemu Selanne	527	-1
25	Bryan Trottier	523	3
26	Ken Dryden	523	-1
27	Evgeni Malkin	498	-1
28	Bobby Clarke	497	3
29	Peter Forsberg	494	-2
30	Chris Chelios	469	-1
31	Brian Leetch	454	-1
32	Joe Thornton	445	0
33	Chris Pronger	444	2
34	Sergei Fedorov	443	-1
35	Pavel Bure	437	1
36	Ron Francis	429	6
37	Jarome Iginla	427	-3
38	Jari Kurri	422	1
39	Eric Lindros	421	-1
40	Luc Robitaille	404	0
41	Al MacInnis	395	-4
42	Scott Niedermayer	391	3
43	Patrick Kane	387	-2
44	Dale Hawerchuk	379	11
45	Borje Salming	376	9
46	Peter Stastny	374	10
47	Tony Esposito	373	-3
48	Patrice Bergeron	372	-2
49	Stan Mikita	365	-2
50	Pavel Datsyuk	359	-7
51	Bernie Parent	352	-3
52	Scott Stevens	345	-3
53	Mike Modano	324	-2
54	Henrik Lundqvist	307	-4
55	Brendan Shanahan	301	4
56	Brad Park	298	-3
57	Zdeno Chara	280	0
58	Victor Hedman	274	-6
59	Paul Kariya	264	-1
60	Mats Sundin	248	1
61	Erik Karlsson	239	-1
62	Mike Gartner	236	5
63	Adam Oates	233	6
64	Doug Gilmour	230	2
65	Gilbert Perreault	224	3
66	Roberto Luongo	218	-3
67	Auston Matthews	216	-3
68	Jean Ratelle	206	2
69	Grant Fuhr	206	2
70	Andrei Vasilevskiy	194	8
71	Nathan MacKinnon	172	3
72	Nathan Mackinnon	172	2
73	Joe Nieuwendyk	170	7
74	Darryl Sittler	170	8
75	Serge Savard	164	9
76	Denis Savard	164	9
77	Martin St. Louis	163	-15
78	Jonathan Toews	161	-13
79	Billy Smith	158	7
80	Nikita Kucherov	151	-8
81	Drew Doughty	144	-8
82	Steven Stamkos	142	-7
83	Ed Belfour	140	-2
84	Daniel Sedin	128	-8
85	Henrik Sedin	126	-8
86	Marian Hossa	121	-3
87	Duncan Keith	114	-8
88	Mark Recchi	113	3
89	Rob Blake	110	-2
90	Bob Gainey	108	2
91	Pat Lafontaine	103	3
92	Alexander Mogilny	103	-3
93	Pat LaFontaine	103	1
94	John Bucyk	102	1
95	Guy Lapointe	95	3
96	Carey Price	92	-8
97	Marc-Andre Fleury	85	3
98	Sergei Zubov	79	-2
99	Mark Howe	78	-6
100	Larry Murphy	73	3
101	Cam Neely	68	3
102	Shea Weber	63	-12
103	Phil Housley	62	-2
104	Frank Mahovlich	58	1
105	Yvan Cournoyer	49	1
106	Michel Goulet	47	2
107	Jacques Lemaire	46	2
108	Tim Horton	43	3
109	Glenn Anderson	42	3
110	Jonathan Quick	42	3
111	Kris Letang	33	-12
112	Pierre Turgeon	29	2
113	Henrik Zetterberg	29	-16
114	Rogie Vachon	27	5
115	Anze Kopitar	27	-13
116	Kent Nilsson	26	4
117	Leon Draisaitl	25	-7
118	Pekka Rinne	18	4
119	Doug Wilson	15	5
120	Dave Keon	9	7
121	Roman Josi	8	-4
122	Rick Tocchet	8	6
123	Dino Ciccarelli	8	6
124	Sergei Gonchar	7	7
125	Brad Marchand	2	-18
126	Markus Naslund	1	-10
127	Keith Tkachuk	1	-12

 

[Wee Baby Seamus]

Extremely funny to me that, with all the pearl clutching about “young” Dom and whatnot, Auston Matthews would’ve been in basically the same position regardless.

 

[Calderon]

I wonder what kind of process they use on compiling the list. Like, do they start from the top and start parsing names after Gretzky? What I thought of is that a separate "comb list" of four positions (C, W, D, G) could be the most useful method. You'd rank the positions separately and then interlock/stagger (I'm not a native English speaker) the combs so that the comb spikes overlap with each other.

 

[thegoldenyear]

I was curious so here ya go:

Rank	Player	Score	Diff. from Athletic List
1	Wayne Gretzky	700	0
2	Mario Lemieux	690	0
3	Bobby Orr	689	0
4	Sidney Crosby	676	0
5	Jaromir Jagr	663	0
6	Alex Ovechkin	660	0
7	Dominik Hasek	655	0
8	Nicklas Lidstrom	652	0
9	Phil Esposito	641	0
10	Raymond Bourque	637	0
11	Patrick Roy	622	0
12	Mike Bossy	621	0
13	Joe Sakic	599	0
14	Guy Lafleur	591	0
15	Denis Potvin	589	4
16	Mark Messier	583	1
17	Steve Yzerman	581	-1
18	Connor McDavid	579	-3
19	Marcel Dionne	567	1
20	Larry Robinson	561	4
21	Martin Brodeur	558	0
22	Paul Coffey	556	-4
23	Brett Hull	535	-1
24	Teemu Selanne	527	-1
25	Bryan Trottier	523	3
26	Ken Dryden	523	-1
27	Evgeni Malkin	498	-1
28	Bobby Clarke	497	3
29	Peter Forsberg	494	-2
30	Chris Chelios	469	-1
31	Brian Leetch	454	-1
32	Joe Thornton	445	0
33	Chris Pronger	444	2
34	Sergei Fedorov	443	-1
35	Pavel Bure	437	1
36	Ron Francis	429	6
37	Jarome Iginla	427	-3
38	Jari Kurri	422	1
39	Eric Lindros	421	-1
40	Luc Robitaille	404	0
41	Al MacInnis	395	-4
42	Scott Niedermayer	391	3
43	Patrick Kane	387	-2
44	Dale Hawerchuk	379	11
45	Borje Salming	376	9
46	Peter Stastny	374	10
47	Tony Esposito	373	-3
48	Patrice Bergeron	372	-2
49	Stan Mikita	365	-2
50	Pavel Datsyuk	359	-7
51	Bernie Parent	352	-3
52	Scott Stevens	345	-3
53	Mike Modano	324	-2
54	Henrik Lundqvist	307	-4
55	Brendan Shanahan	301	4
56	Brad Park	298	-3
57	Zdeno Chara	280	0
58	Victor Hedman	274	-6
59	Paul Kariya	264	-1
60	Mats Sundin	248	1
61	Erik Karlsson	239	-1
62	Mike Gartner	236	5
63	Adam Oates	233	6
64	Doug Gilmour	230	2
65	Gilbert Perreault	224	3
66	Roberto Luongo	218	-3
67	Auston Matthews	216	-3
68	Jean Ratelle	206	2
69	Grant Fuhr	206	2
70	Andrei Vasilevskiy	194	9
71	Nathan MacKinnon	172	3
72	Nathan Mackinnon	172	2
73	Joe Nieuwendyk	170	8
74	Darryl Sittler	170	9
75	Serge Savard	164	10
76	Denis Savard	164	10
77	Martin St. Louis	163	-15
78	Jonathan Toews	161	-13
79	Billy Smith	158	8
80	Nikita Kucherov	151	-8
81	Drew Doughty	144	-8
82	Steven Stamkos	142	-6
83	Ed Belfour	140	-1
84	Daniel Sedin	128	-7
85	Henrik Sedin	126	-7
86	Marian Hossa	121	-2
87	Duncan Keith	114	-7
88	Mark Recchi	113	4
89	Rob Blake	110	-1
90	Bob Gainey	108	3
91	Pat Lafontaine	103	4
92	Alexander Mogilny	103	-2
93	Pat LaFontaine	103	2
94	John Bucyk	102	3
95	Guy Lapointe	95	5
96	Carey Price	92	-7
97	Marc-Andre Fleury	85	5
98	Sergei Zubov	79	0
99	Mark Howe	78	-5
100	Larry Murphy	73	5
101	Cam Neely	68	5
102	Shea Weber	63	-11
103	Phil Housley	62	0
104	Frank Mahovlich	58	3
105	Yvan Cournoyer	49	3
106	Michel Goulet	47	4
107	Jacques Lemaire	46	4
108	Tim Horton	43	5
109	Glenn Anderson	42	5
110	Jonathan Quick	42	5
111	Kris Letang	33	-10
112	Pierre Turgeon	29	4
113	Henrik Zetterberg	29	-14
114	Rogie Vachon	27	7
115	Anze Kopitar	27	-11
116	Kent Nilsson	26	6
117	Leon Draisaitl	25	-5
118	Pekka Rinne	18	6
119	Doug Wilson	15	7
120	Dave Keon	9	9
121	Roman Josi	8	-2
122	Rick Tocchet	8	8
123	Dino Ciccarelli	8	8
124	Sergei Gonchar	7	9
125	Brad Marchand	2	-16
126	Markus Naslund	1	-8
127	Keith Tkachuk	1	-10

Hahaha, this actually is a marginally better list. Cheers for doing the legwork!

 

[thegoldenyear]

How did Steve Jobs always put it?

“Oh, and one more thing…”

With less fanfare, DGB (alone? with assistance?) has posted up a pre-1967 list this morning.

 

[thegoldenyear]

Extremely funny to me that, with all the pearl clutching about “young” Dom and whatnot, Auston Matthews would’ve been in basically the same position regardless.

Speaking only for myself, I wasn’t put out so much by recency bias as I was outlier historical takes on players they admitted they never saw and were kind of flippant about. I see that several four-position swings create a correction on Potvin-Robinson-Coffey (from 19-24-18 to 15-20-22), which is at least more sensible.

The size of the Matthews swing* is only exceeded by that of five players ahead of him.

* - in a jerry-rigged after-the-fact list concocted as a bit of mirthmaking. No big deal

 

[jigglysquishy]

How did Steve Jobs always put it?

“Oh, and one more thing…”

With less fanfare, DGB (alone? with assistance?) has posted up a pre-1967 list this morning.

His top 10.

1. Howe
2. Richard
3. Beliveau
4. Harvey
5. Shore
6. Plante
7. Lindsay
8. Hull
9. Sawchuk
10. Kelly

He's sticking to the bizarre ignore everything on the other side of 1967 rule, but even with that the Hull ranking is bizarre.

Bill Cook at 47 is really low, even ignoring his western career. No Gardiner sticks out too. No Nighbor, even if we ignore his NHA career.

 

[MXD]

His top 10.

1. Howe
2. Richard
3. Beliveau
4. Harvey
5. Shore
6. Plante
7. Lindsay
8. Hull
9. Sawchuk
10. Kelly

He's sticking to the bizarre ignore everything on the other side of 1967 rule, but even with that the Hull ranking is bizarre.

Bill Cook at 47 is really low, even ignoring his western career. No Gardiner sticks out too. No Nighbor, even if we ignore his NHA career.

Hull behind Lindsay makes NO sense, but I an, and we should be, totally ready to entertain that idea that Bobby Hull should'be higher than 7th on this list even if it comprises their whole career.

 

[Amazinmets73]

Here's a hypothetical:

A genie offers you an 18 year old Mario, Bobby and Wayne and guarantees you 17 years of 100% healthy play from each.

Who do you choose? I know I'm picking Wayne 3rd. Choosing between Orr and Mario would be tough.

 

[JackSlater]

Here's a hypothetical:

A genie offers you an 18 year old Mario, Bobby and Wayne and guarantees you 17 years of 100% healthy play from each.

Who do you choose? I know I'm picking Wayne 3rd. Choosing between Orr and Mario would be tough.

Orr, then Gretzky, then Lemieux. Even with Lemieux being guaranteed his health I'm not sure he peaks higher than Gretzky, but I am confident in Gretzky having a better attitude and stronger work ethic for the most part to take advantage of that health.

 

[bobholly39]

Here's a hypothetical:

A genie offers you an 18 year old Mario, Bobby and Wayne and guarantees you 17 years of 100% healthy play from each.

Who do you choose? I know I'm picking Wayne 3rd. Choosing between Orr and Mario would be tough.

Dont be so quick to make that choice.

Gretzky 100% owns the best playoff (and international) record. Mario and Orr also do great in playoffs, but Gretzky is unquestionably #1 - always stepping up when games matter most. That has incredible value.

Also - even with perfect health Lemieux has a huge question mark regarding consistency. Gretzky started his career a lot stronger age for age, and Lemieux has a tendency of being lazy/working less hard. Even if you think Lemieux might peak higher, are you sure he does better for 17 years? He might - but he also might not.

Gretzky himself benefits here as the Suter hit impacted him. No injury he ages even more gracefully than he did.

As for Orr - we never saw him play past a certain age. Maybe he ages great - but maybe not.

Im not saying Gretzky has to be#1 or absolutely cannot be #3 in your hypothetical - but it merits a lot more consideration than you seem to give the question.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Does Gretzky get the health bump too? So he never hurts his shoulder in 1984 or destroys his knee in 1987?

What does a faster Gretzky do in those extra years?

No Suter hit in 1991? Does anyone besides Lemieux outpoint him in that 18 year stretch? In real life, the only year he was outscored by someone other than Lemieux (and friend) was in 1993, his 14th season.

The what ifs are always placed at Lemieux and Orr, but never at Gretzky.

 

[Amazinmets73]

Dont be so quick to make that choice.

Gretzky 100% owns the best playoff (and international) record. Mario and Orr also do great in playoffs, but Gretzky is unquestionably #1 - always stepping up when games matter most. That has incredible value.

Also - even with perfect health Lemieux has a huge question mark regarding consistency. Gretzky started his career a lot stronger age for age, and Lemieux has a tendency of being lazy/working less hard. Even if you think Lemieux might peak higher, are you sure he does better for 17 years? He might - but he also might not.

Gretzky himself benefits here as the Suter hit impacted him. No injury he ages even more gracefully than he did.

As for Orr - we never saw him play past a certain age. Maybe he ages great - but maybe not.

Im not saying Gretzky has to be#1 or absolutely cannot be #3 in your hypothetical - but it merits a lot more consideration than you seem to give the question.

I'm assuming Orr ages the best as defenseman typically age better than forwards. Orr's unique skillset as a defenseman makes him more susceptible to age related decline than your average defenseman, but I'm still confident he agss the best.

Does Gretzky get the health bump too? So he never hurts his shoulder in 1984 or destroys his knee in 1987?

What does a faster Gretzky do in those extra years?

No Suter hit in 1991? Does anyone besides Lemieux outpoint him in that 18 year stretch? In real life, the only year he was outscored by someone other than Lemieux (and friend) was in 1993, his 14th season.

The what ifs are always placed at Lemieux and Orr, but never at Gretzky.

Oh agree, I've previously stated it's evident in Gretzky's wins per 82 the impact the Suter hit had. I didn't know about the 80s injuries.

 

[jigglysquishy]

I'm assuming Orr ages the best as defenseman typically age better than forwards. Orr's unique skillset as a defenseman makes him more susceptible to age related decline than your average defenseman, but I'm still confident he agss the best.


Oh agree, I've previously stated it's evident in Gretzky's wins per 82 the impact the Suter hit had. I didn't know about the 80s injuries.

The Gretzky 1987 one gets downplayed, but it had a huge impact on him.

First 38 games that year
Gretzky: 30 goals 56 assists 86 points
Pace: 63 goals 118 assists 181 points
Ahead of everyone in points by 14, only behind Lemieux in goals

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Gretzky's last 26
10 Goals 53 assists 63 points
Pace: 31 goals 163 assists 194 points

He kept his points up, but it was the end of Gretzky as an elite goal scorer.

 

[bobholly39]

His top 10.

1. Howe
2. Richard
3. Beliveau
4. Harvey
5. Shore
6. Plante
7. Lindsay
8. Hull
9. Sawchuk
10. Kelly

He's sticking to the bizarre ignore everything on the other side of 1967 rule, but even with that the Hull ranking is bizarre.

Bill Cook at 47 is really low, even ignoring his western career. No Gardiner sticks out too. No Nighbor, even if we ignore his NHA career.

The first question i asked in the pre-merger project discussion thread when some were figuring out which players qualify or not is if the players who did qualify would have their whole careers count - and everyone said obviously yes.

Makes such a huge difference.

I don't care if The Athletic wants to include or exclude Mikita here - but if you include him don't rank him in the 40s lol. Count his whole career, or none at all. That was so weird.

Also - speaking of HOH projects - watching this list unfold week by week really makes me appreciate the process people here go through. Combining a bunch of people's lists is easy - the actual valuable part is the debate week to week and the ability to re-assess and re-rank appropriately as new information is discovered/processed. Makes for such a better finished project.

 

[bobholly39]

I'm assuming Orr ages the best as defenseman typically age better than forwards. Orr's unique skillset as a defenseman makes him more susceptible to age related decline than your average defenseman, but I'm still confident he agss the best.


Oh agree, I've previously stated it's evident in Gretzky's wins per 82 the impact the Suter hit had. I didn't know about the 80s injuries.

I agree Orr would generally be expected to age the best of the 3 as defensemen often do age better than forwards - but his biggest issue is we didn't see any of it. And therefore - it's a risk.

Gretzky - 2nd half career hall of famer all on its own, and then some.

Lemieux - very on and off with injuries and seasons missed, but still incredible highs in older years so potential to do great.

Orr - complete guessing game. More likely than not he ages well, but who knows?

My point is mostly your "17 year healthy guaranteed" premise from earlier - either way you go it's probably close.

I'd personally take Lemieux first. And for me - it's less about being convinced he would do the best of the 3 than it is about him being the biggest "what if" question by far. So I'd love to get that question answered.

If Lemieux turns out the goat per this hypothetical? Great. If he doesn't? He's probably close enough that I don't lose sleep over it

 

[JackSlater]

I don't have that much of a question regarding Orr aging well. It's hard to think of an elite, healthy defenceman who just dropped off massively by age 35ish (where Orr would be after 17 healthy years) plus when he was able to play with his wrecked knees he was still elite. It's a small sample size but I would guess that 35 year old healthy Orr would be a fair bit better than the Orr that existed in 1976 and beyond even with the natural decline in athleticism that would inevitably occur.

 

[Amazinmets73]

I don't have that much of a question regarding Orr aging well. It's hard to think of an elite, healthy defenceman who just dropped off massively by age 35ish (where Orr would be after 17 healthy years) plus when he was able to play with his wrecked knees he was still elite. It's a small sample size but I would guess that 35 year old healthy Orr would be a fair bit better than the Orr that existed in 1976 and beyond even with the natural decline in athleticism that would inevitably occur.

Orr had a higher W/82 in his quarter season with the Blackhawks skating on one knee than any Gretzky season after age 30.

 

[JackSlater]

Orr had a higher W/82 in his quarter season with the Blackhawks skating on one knee than any Gretzky season after age 30.

I don't put a lot of stock in those stats but we can still recognize that Orr was elite even on one leg, though obviously not near his peak level. What is the realistic worst case scenario for Orr if he is healthy for his whole career? I can't see him suddenly being a healthy 28 year old and becoming even just a run of the mill yearly Norris nominee.

 

[Amazinmets73]

I don't put a lot of stock in those stats but we can still recognize that Orr was elite even on one leg, though obviously not near his peak level. What is the realistic worst case scenario for Orr if he is healthy for his whole career? I can't see him suddenly being a healthy 28 year old and becoming even just a run of the mill yearly Norris nominee.

I think we're looking at minimum 12 Norris trophies. Potvin would get 1 or 2 just due to voter fatigue.