Athletic NHL99 Countdown

Midnight Judges

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Feb 10, 2010
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This is a bizarre take.

It's bizarre to expect a player to show up at the start of the season? Alright well we're just living in different worlds.

I was raised not to quit. If I signed up for something, I was expected to see it through. At some point I thought this was a universal belief, but it's obviously not. A lot of parents sign their kids up for a sport and then their kid shows up for half the games. I don't know why they think a team can work that way or if they even care. I don't know what message they think that is sending.

When he was ready to return it was December, why wait until next year so that he could play in October? If you're ready, you're ready.

It wasn't a matter of ready. It was a matter of "felt like it."
 
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Beau Knows

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Mar 4, 2013
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It's bizarre to expect a player to show up at the start of the season? Alright well we're just living in different worlds.

I was raised not to quit. If I signed up for something, I was expected to see it through. At some point I thought this was a universal belief, but it's obviously not. A lot of parents sign their kids up for a sport and then their kid shows up for half the games. I don't know why they think a team can work that way or if they even care. I don't know what message they think that is sending.

It's amazing to me that you could post this silly rant without even realizing that he hadn't signed up for anything at all. He was retired, he was under no obligation to return until he had unretired.
 
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Midnight Judges

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It's amazing to me that you could post this silly rant without even realizing that he hadn't signed up for anything at all. He was retired, he was under no obligation to return until he had unretired.

Yeah he had no concept of team and no consideration for it. It was all about himself and what he felt like. Show up for half the games? All good who cares. Those other guys can deal with it.

And again, that's not retiring. That's quitting, and then unquitting.
 
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bobholly39

Registered User
Mar 10, 2013
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Yeah he had no concept of team and no consideration for it. It was all about himself and what he felt like. Show up for half the games? All good who cares. Those other guys can deal with it.

And again, that's not retiring. That's quitting, and then unquitting.

I guess you must rank Gordie Howe outside of the top 10 right?

I hear that bum "quit" and then "unquit" many times i hear
 

Hockey Outsider

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Jan 16, 2005
9,155
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Lemieux's comeback is more complicated than him deciding to simply come out of retirement. It was at least partially a business decision.

The Penguins filed Chapter 11 bankruptcy during the 1998-99 season. They owed Mario Lemieux more than $30M USD (he had agreed to defer some of his salary to give the franchise some breathing room, financially). Other players were collectively owed tens of millions of dollars, but nobody else was close to Lemieux. He probably realized there was no realistic prospect of getting repaid, so he agreed to convert the debt into equity. That had to get approved by the courts, and the NHL. If Lemieux didn't do that, there's a good chance the Penguins would have gone bankrupt (or, at the very least, to a different city).

Right at the start of the 1999-2000 season, Lemieux had just forgiven most or all of that $30M USD (I don't know if he got anything in cash), in exchange for a majority stake in a near-bankrupt franchise. The Pens had a pretty good season (Jagr won the Art Ross, and upset the much stronger Capitals in the first round) but their situation was still precarious. They were still averaging less than 15,000 attendees per home game (they were over 16,000 just a few years before).

Lemieux came out of the retirement in December 2000. This was a challenge with the NHLPA, since was simultaneously a player and an owner, which presented an obvious conflict of interest. (It's conceivable - and I don't have evidence for this, just a theory - that Lemieux's delayed start was due to needing to get the necessary approvals from the NHLPA. Either way, he was the majority owner of a large business, in a difficult financial situation - which would have created stress and demands on his time that literally no other player in the NHL was dealing with). Attendance jumped 5% over the year before (and that's the average for the entire year - presumably we'd see a bigger increase looking just at the games since Lemieux made his comeback). They sold out 26 games that year (more than any season since 1993).

I'm not sure how all this should be taken into account. Maybe we can say Lemieux was being a greedy owner, trying to maximize his franchise's value, playing and skipping games as he pleased. Maybe he was a heroic player, coming out of retirement to save the nearly-bankrupt team, and risking tens of millions of dollars in the process. Either way, there's no precedent for this anywhere in NHL history, and the situation is more complicated than Lemieux randomly deciding to come out of retirement one day.
 
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seventieslord

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Mar 16, 2006
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I would expect that someone who expects a player/team to be ready to play at the start of the season lest they be morally questionable, would also expect a player/team to be ready to play at the end of a season, like, for example, the 2020 preliminary round robin, highly important games that had monumental seeding implications. Such a person would not brush those games off as unimportant and neglect to count their results in the results of their favourite team or player, or they'd be very logically inconsistent.
 
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Buck Naked

Can't-Stand-Ya
Aug 18, 2016
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Cringe listening to the Athletic's podcast roundtable where they tried to justify some of their picks for the list. I really don't even understand the reasoning behind some of their explanations. At one point Shayna Goldman said that she thinks Matthews will be a top 25 player in this list in two years time! What?! The fact that they also set the rules for the list in order to get Matthews on it speaks volumes about their bias. Gentile mentioned that he rated Letang super high because they're the same age and he's been following him for a long time. I what universe is Letang a better player than Draisaitl? So many things to complain about on this list, but that Draisaitl omission is just a kick to the balls if you've watched hockey the last 5-6 years.
 

thegoldenyear

RIP Mike Bossy
May 13, 2013
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I’m thinking of asking young Dom Luszczyszyn to spreadsheet The Athletic’s list without his and Shayna Goldman’s contribution. Thing might almost be readable at that point. Think he’ll go for it?

The roundtable was revelatory, with both Dom and Shayna coming off as the project’s lightweights, resorting to irreverence when pressed about some outlier picks. Athletic probably shouldn’t’ve pulled the curtain back so far. I’d hate for Orr-at-eight to become canon. Maybe it’s a good thing Ath is paywalled.

Eric Duhatschek breezily claims this is only the third “definitive” “top 100” list in creation, following the ‘97 THN and the 2017 unordered league-official lists. Agree/disagree? I don’t hold with every final placement on HFB’s lists but the intellectual rigour behind them is unmissably honest and hearty.

I think the younger element of the panel misfired in their mission. Shame, because it was a chance to educate younger/newer readers who care at least enough to spend money on their site. To wit:

Goldman, I’m willing to bet, had never heard some of the names before the assignment. She had her parents vet parts of her list. Also: Potvin at #51.

Dom writes about his “indifference to nostalgia.”

Michael Russo admitted, “As I got deeper into my rankings, I felt I was throwing the proverbial dart at the dartboard.” And this was from a guy with 28 years in the field, with the good sense to “contend we should have expanded the voting to a wider variety of people, and not just on The Athletic staff.”
 

BraveCanadian

Registered User
Jun 30, 2010
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Some really questionable rankings in this list, but I found several of the accompanying articles were good reads.
 

thegoldenyear

RIP Mike Bossy
May 13, 2013
2,374
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Some really questionable rankings in this list, but I found several of the accompanying articles were good reads.
Oh, agreed. Those who’ve followed along can cite the worst offenders chapter and verse (the white skates, the country singer, the worst human ever, etc.), but the thing we presumably read Athletic for - longform pieces the likes of which seldom run in our local papers anymore - was generally solid, and often really rewarding. (My favourite player got a tremendous piece from Michael Russo.)
 

The Macho King

Back* to Back** World Champion
Jun 22, 2011
48,776
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Michael Russo admitted, “As I got deeper into my rankings, I felt I was throwing the proverbial dart at the dartboard.” And this was from a guy with 28 years in the field, with the good sense to “contend we should have expanded the voting to a wider variety of people, and not just on The Athletic staff.”
I don't really feel the need to address Dom and Shayna - they're idiots and not worth wasting digital ink on.

But this view I'm sympathetic to. This is a guy that struggled and recognized his own shortcomings - I think anyone who has been apart of such a project on here can sympathize. The disappointment I have is the lists should be edifying for the participants - you should come out of the other end with more respect for the game and the names on the list.

But this project? First it cut itself off at the knees by limiting it in time because they couldn't be bothered to learn more about the history of the league. And then numerous participants feel dismissive of the players they ranked (and the critiques the list received), so instead of edifying they treated more as homework.

Just a damn shame. I've read their other lists and they felt more thoughtful, but for some reason the NHL side seems to lean *so hard* on Dom (maybe because they can always throw a player card into their pieces instead of doing any work or analysis themselves). And they lean on him to their detriment.

I seriously keep my subscription active for DGB and nothing else. I was going to cancel but then it was like 12 bucks to renew for a year, so I figured DGB was worth 1 buck a month.
 

JackSlater

Registered User
Apr 27, 2010
18,101
12,755
I’m thinking of asking young Dom Luszczyszyn to spreadsheet The Athletic’s list without his and Shayna Goldman’s contribution. Thing might almost be readable at that point. Think he’ll go for it?

The roundtable was revelatory, with both Dom and Shayna coming off as the project’s lightweights, resorting to irreverence when pressed about some outlier picks. Athletic probably shouldn’t’ve pulled the curtain back so far. I’d hate for Orr-at-eight to become canon. Maybe it’s a good thing Ath is paywalled.

Eric Duhatschek breezily claims this is only the third “definitive” “top 100” list in creation, following the ‘97 THN and the 2017 unordered league-official lists. Agree/disagree? I don’t hold with every final placement on HFB’s lists but the intellectual rigour behind them is unmissably honest and hearty.

I think the younger element of the panel misfired in their mission. Shame, because it was a chance to educate younger/newer readers who care at least enough to spend money on their site. To wit:

Goldman, I’m willing to bet, had never heard some of the names before the assignment. She had her parents vet parts of her list. Also: Potvin at #51.

Dom writes about his “indifference to nostalgia.”

Michael Russo admitted, “As I got deeper into my rankings, I felt I was throwing the proverbial dart at the dartboard.” And this was from a guy with 28 years in the field, with the good sense to “contend we should have expanded the voting to a wider variety of people, and not just on The Athletic staff.”
I did respect Russo for what he said. Predictably some of the voters don't have a clue about some (a lot) of these players, but a wider pool of the people he mentioned would mitigate that somewhat. The list was never going to be impressive but there were some good article, which should be the actual draw given that it is writers making the list and not experts.

You're right on which two voters stand out, not surprisingly Goldman claimed that Luszczyszyn's data factored heavily into her rankings. His "indifference to nostalgia" should probably read "ignorant to history" in order to be a bit more accurate.
 
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Gurglesons

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Dec 18, 2009
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last-train-tocool.blogspot.com
Cringe listening to the Athletic's podcast roundtable where they tried to justify some of their picks for the list. I really don't even understand the reasoning behind some of their explanations. At one point Shayna Goldman said that she thinks Matthews will be a top 25 player in this list in two years time! What?! The fact that they also set the rules for the list in order to get Matthews on it speaks volumes about their bias. Gentile mentioned that he rated Letang super high because they're the same age and he's been following him for a long time. I what universe is Letang a better player than Draisaitl? So many things to complain about on this list, but that Draisaitl omission is just a kick to the balls if you've watched hockey the last 5-6 years.

They all admitted that Draisaitl should’ve been on the list.

Letang has been one of the most consistent defensemen since he entered the league. I don’t think it’s far out for him to place where he did. The only thing that prevented him from individual success was injury.

I don’t really get the complaints about this list.
 

Buck Naked

Can't-Stand-Ya
Aug 18, 2016
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5,659
They all admitted that Draisaitl should’ve been on the list.

Letang has been one of the most consistent defensemen since he entered the league. I don’t think it’s far out for him to place where he did. The only thing that prevented him from individual success was injury.

I don’t really get the complaints about this list.

Of course they say that after all the complaints. Heck, I'd be more happy if they stood up instead and explaied why they view Matthews and MacKinnon as so much better despite non of them winning shit at the time of the poll. It's not like they made a mistake. They had months to come up with their lists and they chose to leave Drai off.

Letang is what, the eight best D of his era? Ninth? One time Norris finalist. Ryan Suter's probably got a better case for this list than Letang.
 

Gurglesons

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Dec 18, 2009
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Of course they say that after all the complaints. Heck, I'd be more happy if they stood up instead and explaied why they view Matthews and MacKinnon as so much better despite non of them winning shit at the time of the poll. It's not like they made a mistake. They had months to come up with their lists and they chose to leave Drai off.

Letang is what, the eight best D of his era? Ninth? One time Norris finalist. Ryan Suter's probably got a better case for this list than Letang.

Matthews put up 60 goals for the first time in a decade plus and swept the awards.

Letang was the # 1 defenseman on the best team in the cap era at this point. He should’ve won the Norris in 2013 and he’s been a top ten Norris finalist in like 8 seasons.

He is the modern day Zubov.
 
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Buck Naked

Can't-Stand-Ya
Aug 18, 2016
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Matthews put up 60 goals for the first time in a decade plus and swept the awards.

Letang was the # 1 defenseman on the best team in the cap era at this point. He should’ve won the Norris in 2013 and he’s been a top ten Norris finalist in like 8 seasons.

He is the modern day Zubov.

They voted before that though, didn't they? Since they said that Draisaitl's playoff from last season didn't happen yet, it means that MacKinnon was not a cup winner and Matthews not a Hart or Lindsay winner. Draisaitl, on the other hand..

Letang was on a team with Crosby and Malkin. Pens won a cup with him out of the lineup the entire playoffs. I've always liked Letang but he's being overrated right here. Like I said, Suter was a more consistently good Dman, he just didn't have the luxury of playing with two top three players from the era.
 

Gurglesons

Registered User
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They voted before that though, didn't they? Since they said that Draisaitl's playoff from last season didn't happen yet, it means that MacKinnon was not a cup winner and Matthews not a Hart or Lindsay winner. Draisaitl, on the other hand..

Letang was on a team with Crosby and Malkin. Pens won a cup with him out of the lineup the entire playoffs. I've always liked Letang but he's being overrated right here. Like I said, Suter was a more consistently good Dman, he just didn't have the luxury of playing with two top three players from the era.

Good point.

As far as the Letang thing I just have to disagree although I’m a Penguins fan so biased.
 
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ResilientBeast

Proud Member of the TTSAOA
Jul 1, 2012
13,903
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Edmonton
No, but I don’t buy the “Letang played with Sid and Malkin” narrative.

He’s the most consistent offensive defenseman in that era and despite his injuries has a chance to retire with 800 points.

You don't buy that an offensive defenseman getting to play his career with 2 of the best players in he league at their peak perhaps had an effect on his career? lol

Is Erik Karlsson a joke to you?
 

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