ATD2020 Draft Thread III

[TheDevilMadeMe]

My personal feeling about centres playing wing is that most of them would do a good job in converting. The best players generally play center and as players advance up through levels, the weaker centres swap to the wing because they are better than those wingers.

Having said that, I think playing guy out of position violates the spirit of this draft. I’m not sure how I will take that into account when I vote.

I mentally take points away from a center playing out of position. At some point, even a center with points taken away is better than a far lesser winger, however, but the difference has to be pretty big for me to prefer the center playing out of position.

 

[tabness]

It's gotten a little... chippy... here and some of my statements are straight up being misconstrued, so I guess I will just say, going with the Datsyuk example, Datsyuk's same skillset would absolutely be more valuable in an era without forward passing.

Also, just so it's absolutely clear, I have absolutely no problem with thinking players from past eras could and would do well today, that much is blindingly obvious to me by just looking at players with long careers adapting to different eras. The thing I'm skeptical about is the broad era comparison methods we have today. But different skillsets have different values in different eras.

Oh, and Dale Hawerchuk absolutely has the skillset to play as a winger (not a tough transition for many players), and not only that, he has actually done so.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Judge a player on what they did in their era, as the rules were, against their peers.

Exactly.

The typical response is that players like Gordie Howe (top 5 in points for 20 straight years) and Raymond Bourque (1st Team All-Star for the 1st time in the slower paced game of 1982, 1st Team All-Star for the last time in the short shift game of 2001) prove that the best hockey players tend to remain the best hockey players through the various changes in the game. The fundamentals are the same.

 

[Dreakmur]

It's gotten a little... chippy... here and some of my statements are straight up being misconstrued, so I guess I will just say, going with the Datsyuk example, Datsyuk's same skillset would absolutely be more valuable in an era without forward passing.

Also, just so it's absolutely clear, I have absolutely no problem with thinking players from past eras could and would do well today, that much is blindingly obvious to me by just looking at players with long careers adapting to different eras. The thing I'm skeptical about is the broad era comparison methods we have today. But different skillsets have different values in different eras.

Oh, and Dale Hawerchuk absolutely has the skillset to play as a winger (not a tough transition for many players), and not only that, he has actually done so.

I don’t think we’re playing the ATD under any one era’s set of rules. Each player kind of plays under their own rules.

Sure, we build our rosters to today’s standards, but that’s just so it’s easier to visualize how the team functions.

 

[kruezer]

North Bay will reunite Makarov with his longtime center, from the hockey player factory of Voskresensky, C Igor Larionov.

 

[tabness]

I mentally take points away from a center playing out of position. At some point, even a center with points taken away is better than a far lesser winger, however, but the difference has to be pretty big for me to prefer the center playing out of position.

That's fair, but what about a center who's played on the top line for most of his prime, now playing second line, or even in some cases in this thing, third or fourth (even if those aren't traditional checking lines)? The adjustment to that is not as easy or straightforward as it may seem, and in many cases, would be harder than just playing wing, which is exactly why many wingers throughout history are converted centers.

 

[ResilientBeast]

That's fair, but what about a center who's played on the top line for most of his prime, now playing second line, or even in some cases in this thing, third or fourth (even if those aren't traditional checking lines)? The adjustment to that is not as easy or straightforward as it may seem, and in many cases, would be harder than just playing wing, which is exactly why many wingers throughout history are converted centers.

This has come up in discussions before, TOI centered usually

I think playing less is definitely an easier transition than playing a different position

 

[ResilientBeast]

It's gotten a little... chippy... here and some of my statements are straight up being misconstrued, so I guess I will just say, going with the Datsyuk example, Datsyuk's same skillset would absolutely be more valuable in an era without forward passing.

Also, just so it's absolutely clear, I have absolutely no problem with thinking players from past eras could and would do well today, that much is blindingly obvious to me by just looking at players with long careers adapting to different eras. The thing I'm skeptical about is the broad era comparison methods we have today. But different skillsets have different values in different eras.

Oh, and Dale Hawerchuk absolutely has the skillset to play as a winger (not a tough transition for many players), and not only that, he has actually done so.

Sorry about going for the throat, but it feels like such a whataboutism argument

I think Nighbor's technique would be less effective so therefore I can play Hawerchuk on the wing

Was thinking about Tkachuk but he gone and was planning on a defenseman but maybe I get lucky and take him in 60 picks, cause I just thought about this and it should work great.

Radz take Dale Hawerchuk (on phone so no card)

He’s just a better player and a better fit than other wingers I could take. Will likely play him at left wing (Yzerman’s) as I know he’ll do great there as a playmaker and I don’t think he’ll do as well as a second/third line center.

I know I’ll get crap for playing him at wing but I feel it’s a more sure thing since he played on Yzerman’s (right) wing in the 1989 World Championships sometimes and they were great and straight up played left wing for parts of junior than like Frank Nighbor adapting his hook/poke check game to a league context with forward passing (yes that was meant to be contreversial on how we think about adaptations in this thing).

 

[Dreakmur]

That's fair, but what about a center who's played on the top line for most of his prime, now playing second line, or even in some cases in this thing, third or fourth (even if those aren't traditional checking lines)? The adjustment to that is not as easy or straightforward as it may seem, and in many cases, would be harder than just playing wing, which is exactly why many wingers throughout history are converted centers.

If a player had a known bad attitude, I assume they would be a dressing room issue... unless that team had great leadership. Tom Barrasso and Ed Belfour would be poor choices for backup goalies, for example.

Aside from that, I assume all these players consider it an honour to be drafted, and would try to give a good showing in any role.

Now, a player who won’t be given any time in the PP here, I don’t count his PP scoring as part of his contributions.

 

[ImporterExporter]

North Bay will reunite Makarov with his longtime center, from the hockey player factory of Voskresensky, C Igor Larionov.

As soon as you said damn when I picked Petrov I figured Larinov would be your selection here for obvious reasons. Great pick sir!

 

[tabness]

Having said that, I think playing guy out of position violates the spirit of this draft. I’m not sure how I will take that into account when I vote.

If that's a rule I can respect that (don't like it or think it's realistic, but understandable), though I didn't see it called out. Also, if that's a thing, it should be pretty clear on what players are. Zetterberg (using only my players to make examples now) to me is a center. He was trained as a center, he played most of his career at center. I think he actually preferred to play center. Yet some of his best play is at wing, with Datsyuk, because good players tend to play better together, and they actually were very complimentary.

I don’t think we’re playing the ATD under any one era’s set of rules. Each player kind of plays under their own rules.

Sure, we build our rosters to today’s standards, but that’s just so it’s easier to visualize how the team functions.

This is hard for me to wrap my head around, so please help me out (and I appreciate you going through this with me). We build our teams based on compatibility, or at least that is what I have been strongly trying to do, even across eras, but the rules of this thing matter in how we do that. So far example, Pronger in the dead puck era, I would personally pair with a slightly different type of defenseman then in the New NHL era. I don't understand how we are to make decisions without a clear frame of reference though.

If a player had a known bad attitude, I assume they would be a dressing room issue... unless that team had great leadership. Tom Barrasso and Ed Belfour would be poor choices for backup goalies, for example.

Aside from that, I assume all these players consider it an honour to be drafted, and would try to give a good showing in any role.

Now, a player who won’t be given any time in the PP here, I don’t count his PP scoring as part of his contributions.

I think it goes beyond bad attitude and less time though personally. Lots of players with generally great attitudes just perform better if they get more time, opportunities, or just feel like the guy. It's hard to get going for some star players without time on the powerplay and things to that effect. I consider Hawerchuk to be a bit of that player, and not so much the guy(s) I planned to slot in the second and third lines.

 

[ResilientBeast]

If that's a rule I can respect that (don't like it or think it's realistic, but understandable), though I didn't see it called out. Also, if that's a thing, it should be pretty clear on what players are. Zetterberg (using only my players to make examples now) to me is a center. He was trained as a center, he played most of his career at center. I think he actually preferred to play center. Yet some of his best play is at wing, with Datsyuk, because good players tend to play better together, and they actually were very complimentary.

Generally speaking a player should be available and accepted at any position where they actually played and achieved clear demonstrable success. For older players that usually means sifting through newspapers and looking at lineups from game summaries. Historical drafts position listing is usually fairly stable with most position arguments having been settled already, some issues like Joe Malone having LW eligibility still exist.

If you want to change a players position eligibility to include other positions (usually) the onus is on you to prove that the player succeeded at that position.

Zetterberg has LW because

All Star Center: 6
All Star Left Wing: 2, 3, 4, 4, 5, 7

His all star attention comes when voters considered him a LW.

So unlike the actual hard rules we have, it's a rule in which everyone generally accepts (except Nalyd's team a few drafts ago) and penalizes differently

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Generally speaking a player should be available and accepted at any position where they actually player and achieved clear demonstrable success. For older players that usually means sifting through newspapers and looking at lineups from game summaries. Historical drafts position listing is usually fairly stable with most position arguments having been settled already, some issues like Joe Malone having LW eligibility still exist.

If you want to change a players position eligibility to include other positions (usually) the onus is on you to prove that the player succeeded at that position.

Zetterberg has LW because

All Star Center: 6
All Star Left Wing: 2, 3, 4, 4, 5, 7

His all star attention comes when voters considered him a LW.

Not the greatest example, because he actually was a C in many of the years he was voted as LW - but writers were instructed to vote for players based on how the NHL officially listed them - and the NHL is notoriously slow to update their player listings (which resulted in the Ovechkin getting All-Star votes at 2 positions debacle BTW).

Z was especially confusing because when he and Datsyuk played on the same line, they more or less swapped between LW and C, depending on where the faceoff was, IIRC. Either way, he did show he could play well at LW.

 

[Johnny Engine]

This is hard for me to wrap my head around, so please help me out (and I appreciate you going through this with me). We build our teams based on compatibility, or at least that is what I have been strongly trying to do, even across eras, but the rules of this thing matter in how we do that. So far example, Pronger in the dead puck era, I would personally pair with a slightly different type of defenseman then in the New NHL era. I don't understand how we are to make decisions without a clear frame of reference though.

One way to look at it is that we’re free to build any kind of team we want, provided it has at least 18 skaters and 2 goalies. Most ATD teams have had 2 scoring lines, 2 checking lines and 3 pairs with a puck mover and a stay at home guy, but not all. There have been all attack teams, full grinder squads, but also at least one Soviet style team with strikers, midfielders and fullbacks, and one full team of multi-position players that was designed to just go on the ice 5 at a time and just do whatever.

furthermore, I think what a player type means can have its own kind of era relativity. People like to say that purely defensive defensemen don’t exist anymore, but somebody has to kill penalties, go out for defensive zone faceoffs, or help shelter guys who are liabilities. Someone like Matthias Ekholm, to use an example of someone who won’t be drafted anytime soon, scores more than Rod Langway did, but is completely unspecial as a scorer among his peers. Had a similar talent to Ekholm come along in the 90s, he’d probably score even less for a full on trap team.

so if you’ve got Pronger, what do you want him to do for your team, and what help does he need to accomplish that?

 

[Namba 17]

We have clock here for a reason. Everybody may use as much time (till it's their clock, off course) as he wish.

 

[ResilientBeast]

I would like to take this opportunity to remind everyone to not flame one another.

As defined "Critique the opinion, not the person. Personal attacks against members are not permitted. Report flaming, do not respond to it. Counter-flaming is also prohibited"

We're here to have fun remember

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I know which 2 players he was deciding between...

(I did not give him any helpful advice between the two of them, but told him where to find a particular item of research he was looking for and couldn't find...)

 

[seventieslord]

In case anyone thinks BB is just running out the clock, he's not, he's banned. I'm apparently his proxy GM for now. He selects Jim Thomson, D.

 

[Sprague Cleghorn]

I believed him and Henri played together on the same line? From somewhere in Montreal, Claude Provost

 

[Dreakmur]

In case anyone thinks BB is just running out the clock, he's not, he's banned. I'm apparently his proxy GM for now. He selects Jim Thomson, D.

I didn’t think he’s last.... but was holding onto hope lol

 

[ImporterExporter]

I believed him and Henri played together on the same line? From somewhere in Montreal, Claude Provost

Really good even strength scoring numbers considering how good he was defensively.

 

[seventieslord]

I didn’t think he’s last.... but was holding onto hope lol

Who? BB or Thomson?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Really good even strength scoring numbers considering how good he was defensively.

In Provost's own words, he wasn't as good defensively when asked to play a bigger offensive role. Still, a really good pick next to Richard.

 

[ResilientBeast]

The Portland Rosebuds will select a player their GM has openly blamed for some of Lehman and Taylor's shortcomings in the playoffs.

But he's the best fit for my team, the Portland Rosebuds are excited to select Mickey MacKay, C/RW

Awards and Achievements:
2 x Stanley Cup Champion (1915, 1929)

5 x PCHA First Team All-Star (1915, 1917, 1919, 1922, 1923)
3 x PCHA Second Team All-Star (1916, 1918, 1921)
WCHL First Team All-Star (1925)

Scoring:
PCHA Points – 2nd(1915), 2nd(1922), 2nd(1923), 3rd(1924), 6th(1917), 9th(1918), 10th(1916), 10th(1919), 10th(1921)
PCHA Goals – 1st(1915), 1st(1924), 2nd(1923), 5th(1922), 6th(1917), 9th(1918), 9th(1921), 10th(1919)
PCHA Assists – 1st(1922), 2nd(1915), 2nd(1923), 3rd(1916), 6th(1924), 8th(1921)

WCHL Points – 2nd(1925)
WCHL Goals – 1st(1925)

NHL Points – 13th(1927), 13th(1928)
NHL Goals – 12th(1928), 18th(1927)
NHL Assists – 8th(1927)

Some new quotes I've dug up and will use to build a bio to rival my Taylor one (#PCHA4Life)

All quotes from Globe and Mail unless otherwise stated - Which is based in Toronto Ontario

25 Dec 1918

MacKay is one of the all-round stars of hockey, and although only 22 years of age, he has been a sensation for the past three seasons. He first saw the light of day in Chesley Ont, in 1896 and although weighing on 146 pounds he is a wonder on skates playing rings around the big fellows.....

Also somewhat of a "bad man" as he spent 30 valuable minutes with the penalty timers during the 17-18 race.

10 Dec 1919

XXX ACCEPTS ST. PAT'S TERMS: Brilliant Forward Wires Favorable Reply to Manager Frank Heffernan SUDBURY WANT GAMES Northern Team Likely to Meet Argonauts During Christmas Week

Barring Mickey MacKay, there is no better forward in hockey than XXX and St. Patricks are indeed favorites to secure his services

24 Mar 1922

COAST LEAGUE TEAM IN SHUTOUT VICTORY: St Patricks Bow to Million sires by 3 to 0--Cameron Unable to Do Himself Justice--MacKay and Lehman Star Again

In Mickey MacKay the Patricks have a "Babe" Ruth as far as drawing power is concerned. He is a marvel on skates and one of the fastest and trickiest men who ever played, and Lester Patrick is not alone is his belief that MacKay is one of the outstanding figures the sport has ever produced. The Vancouver flash is far faster than any other player on either team, and has a most deceptive way of getting passed the defencse. Several times last night he faked a double shift, threw the defence off guard and dashed in only to shoot wide or have Roach make a great save. Fourtunately for the opposition none of MacKay's team mates can keep pace with him.

18 Mar 1922

ST. PATS BEATEN IN FIRST GAME: Vancouver Off to Good Start in Stanley Cup Series XXX SCORES THREE Great Duel Between Lehman and XXX--Locals Below Form

Dye even though opposed by one of the sport's greatest stars in "Mickey" Mackay played one of his best game of the year. He outguessed MacKay repeatedly with his fake shot and short snappy stickhandling maneuvers.

Edmonton Bulletin Feb 1, 1918

Mickey is playing the best game of his young life this season; his hook checking is uncanny and he and Tayor are the offensive strength of the team. Long may he wave.[/quote]

 

[ImporterExporter]

The Portland Rosebuds will select a player their GM has openly blamed for some of Lehman and Taylor's shortcomings in the playoffs.

But he's the best fit for my team, the Portland Rosebuds are excited to select Mickey MacKay, C/RW

Awards and Achievements:
2 x Stanley Cup Champion (1915, 1929)

5 x PCHA First Team All-Star (1915, 1917, 1919, 1922, 1923)
3 x PCHA Second Team All-Star (1916, 1918, 1921)
WCHL First Team All-Star (1925)

Scoring:
PCHA Points – 2nd(1915), 2nd(1922), 2nd(1923), 3rd(1924), 6th(1917), 9th(1918), 10th(1916), 10th(1919), 10th(1921)
PCHA Goals – 1st(1915), 1st(1924), 2nd(1923), 5th(1922), 6th(1917), 9th(1918), 9th(1921), 10th(1919)
PCHA Assists – 1st(1922), 2nd(1915), 2nd(1923), 3rd(1916), 6th(1924), 8th(1921)

WCHL Points – 2nd(1925)
WCHL Goals – 1st(1925)

NHL Points – 13th(1927), 13th(1928)
NHL Goals – 12th(1928), 18th(1927)
NHL Assists – 8th(1927)

Some new quotes I've dug up and will use to build a bio to rival my Taylor one (#PCHA4Life)

All quotes from Globe and Mail unless otherwise stated - Which is based in Toronto Ontario

25 Dec 1918


10 Dec 1919

XXX ACCEPTS ST. PAT'S TERMS: Brilliant Forward Wires Favorable Reply to Manager Frank Heffernan SUDBURY WANT GAMES Northern Team Likely to Meet Argonauts During Christmas Week




24 Mar 1922

COAST LEAGUE TEAM IN SHUTOUT VICTORY: St Patricks Bow to Million sires by 3 to 0--Cameron Unable to Do Himself Justice--MacKay and Lehman Star Again



18 Mar 1922

ST. PATS BEATEN IN FIRST GAME: Vancouver Off to Good Start in Stanley Cup Series XXX SCORES THREE Great Duel Between Lehman and XXX--Locals Below Form



Edmonton Bulletin Feb 1, 1918

Mickey is playing the best game of his young life this season; his hook checking is uncanny and he and Tayor are the offensive strength of the team. Long may he wave.

[/QUOTE]

I'm glad you got your guy! Strong pick IMO. That would have stunk typing that all up and then having him scooped.