ATD2011 William Northey Semis: (2) Detroit Falcons vs. (3) Vancouver Millionaires

Discussion in 'All Time Draft' started by Dreakmur, Apr 28, 2011.

  1. Dreakmur

    Dreakmur Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2008
    Messages:
    10,242
    Likes Received:
    232
    Trophy Points:
    141
    Occupation:
    Arena Operator
    Location:
    Orillia, Ontario
    Detroit Falcons
    [​IMG]
    (1930-1932)

    Coach: Art Ross
    Assistant Coach: Lloyd Percival


    Anatoli Firsov (A) - Elmer Lach (A) - Cecil Dillon
    Vladimir Krutov - Tod Sloan - Vladimir Vikulov
    Don Marcotte - Kenneth Mosdell - Floyd Curry
    Eddie Shack - Aleksandr Almetov - Konstantin Loktev
    Sergei Kapustin, LW
    Johnny Gagnon, RW

    Doug Harvey (C) - Fern Flaman
    Zdeno Chara - Bert Corbeau (A)
    Jerry Korab - Bobby Rowe
    Gilles Marotte

    Al Rollins
    Henrik Lundqvist


    Powerplay:
    Anatoli Firsov - Vladimir Krutov - Elmer Lach
    Doug Harvey - Zdeno Chara

    Cecil Dillon - Tod Sloan - Vladimir Vikulov
    Jerry Korab - Fern Flaman

    Penalty Kill:
    Don Marcotte - Kenneth Mosdell
    Doug Harvey - Zdeno Chara

    Floyd Curry - Aleksandr Almetov
    Bert Corbeau - Fern Flaman

    Vladimir Krutov - Elmer Lach
    Doug Harvey - Zdeno Chara


    VS.

    Vancouver Millionaires

    Head coach: Punch Imlach

    Steve Shutt-Howie Morenz-Daniel Briere
    John Leclair-Eric Lindros-Kenny Wharram
    John Tonelli-Walt Tkazkuc-Bobby Schmautz
    Zach Parise-Kris Draper-Adam Deadmarsh

    Flash Hollett-Tim Horton
    Ebbie Goodfellow-Keith Magnusson
    Roman Hamrlik-Robert Svehla

    Lorne Chabot
    Nik Khabibulin

    Spares: Yashin, Holmstrom, Visnovski, xxxx

    PP1: Leclair-Lindros-Morenz-Goodfellow-Hollett
    PP2: Shutt-Tonelli-Wharram-Horton-Hamrlik

    PK1: -Tkaczuk-Schmautz-Magnuson-Horton
    PK2: -Tonelli-Draper-Goodfellow-Svehla​
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2011
  2. Dreakmur

    Dreakmur Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2008
    Messages:
    10,242
    Likes Received:
    232
    Trophy Points:
    141
    Occupation:
    Arena Operator
    Location:
    Orillia, Ontario
    Get to fightin'!

    Good luck to both of you.
     
  3. monster_bertuzzi

    monster_bertuzzi registered user

    Joined:
    May 26, 2003
    Messages:
    32,734
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Vancouver
    Home Page:
    Zach Parise is in for Holmstrom on the 4th line. I thought I made that clear...

    Good luck EB, here's to a hard faught series. :cheers:
     
  4. Dreakmur

    Dreakmur Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2008
    Messages:
    10,242
    Likes Received:
    232
    Trophy Points:
    141
    Occupation:
    Arena Operator
    Location:
    Orillia, Ontario
    You should have made it really clear by changing your roster :sarcasm:
     
  5. monster_bertuzzi

    monster_bertuzzi registered user

    Joined:
    May 26, 2003
    Messages:
    32,734
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Vancouver
    Home Page:
    I wasn't able to edit my posts up until a couple of days ago. Not a big deal.

    Parise-Draper-Deadmarsh is the 4th line, Holmstrom is in the press box.
     
  6. EagleBelfour

    EagleBelfour Registered User

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2005
    Messages:
    7,453
    Likes Received:
    31
    Trophy Points:
    101
    Home Page:
    I'll try to come around and post something in the next few days. How many days the discussion will be going on?
     
  7. seventieslord

    seventieslord Student Of The Game

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2006
    Messages:
    32,106
    Likes Received:
    1,055
    Trophy Points:
    169
    Location:
    Regina, SK
    7, unless discussion REALLY dies down quicker than that.
     
  8. monster_bertuzzi

    monster_bertuzzi registered user

    Joined:
    May 26, 2003
    Messages:
    32,734
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Vancouver
    Home Page:
    From a glance it looks like the forwards are advantage Vancouver, defence is advantage Detroit and goaltending is advantage Vancouver. I'll take Imlach and Vigneault over Ross and Percival as well.

    But, digging a little deeper:

    Line 1 - As a whole, You have the better 1st line EB, but I have the best forward in the series by a light year obviously. I'l take issue with anyone who says Briere is some scrub at this level (Im looking at you TDMM), thats now 94 points in his last 93 playoff games and as we all know he lead the league in scoring last year.

    Line 2 - No contest here IMO. I have one of the most effective 2nd lines in the league.

    Line 3 - Again, I'll put my third line up against most - I definitely have the edge here.

    Line 4 - Now I'll admit I dont know much about your two Russians on this line. Shack is a great 4th liner. I'll call the 4th lines a wash, only because Parise has only been at a high level for 3 years.

    Defence: Obviously you have one of, if not the best defence cores in the league. This will be hard for my team to get around. But lets look at this a little closer:

    Harvey>Horton, no arguements here.
    Goodfellow>Flaman
    Chara>Hollett
    Corbeau>=Magnuson
    Rowe>Svehla
    Hamrlik>Korab

    An easy edge, but no real blowout.

    Give me a two time cup winner and a guy with a GAA under 2.00 in the playoffs over Al Rollins anyday.

    Overall I truly think my team could take the Falcons, but I could be extremely biased as well.
     
  9. BillyShoe1721

    BillyShoe1721 Terriers

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2007
    Messages:
    17,252
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    126
    Location:
    Philadelphia, PA
    How many times do I have to say it? Briere is a scrub in ATD terms at RW, especially on a first line. Everything historically relevant that he has accomplished has come at center. His top 10 in points, goals, and assists all came as a center. Look at Briere's last 7 years. His 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th best point totals came at center. When he played RW, 6th and 7th (08-09 and 09-10 regular seasons). Granted, he was injured in 08-09, but my point stands. His four best playoff seasons all came at center, and this year, which is likely to be a very good one, is at center. Briere is significantly, significantly less effective at RW compared to center. Danny Briere has achieved nothing in an ATD context at RW.
     
  10. EagleBelfour

    EagleBelfour Registered User

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2005
    Messages:
    7,453
    Likes Received:
    31
    Trophy Points:
    101
    Home Page:
    I'm boarding my plane in 40 minutes, so I'll try to be quick:

    1st line: Although you do have by a good margin the best hockey player in Howie Morenz, my first line is in my opinion, a far better first line than yours. I feel like my first line has a great balance between playmaking and goalscoring and are all adept player at their role. In between Morenz, you've got Steve Shutt who's another shoot first player and probably the most out of place player of this draft in Daniel Briere. This line in my opinion is not well constructed and one puck will not be able to shoot between them. Billy Shoe already explain how having Briere at RW is a very bad plan. The edge is pretty huge.

    2nd line: I'm taking your second line before mine because of the big edge you have in Eric Lindros over Tod Sloan. There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that Krutov is a better player in almost every way over John Leclair, but I understand that people like to hit on the guy because of the Vancouver fiasco and the steroids accusation. On the right side, Vikulov is a far superior playmaker to Wharram while having more offensive tools. However, that Leclair-Lindros-Wharram line is better constructed than your first line and they will work effectively.

    3rd line: I don't want to argue too much on that line. Two pretty good 3rd line in my opinion. People can look at them and nitpicked which of them they prefer.

    4th line: I'm still unsure how you plan to use the Parise-Draper-Deadmarsh line, as it seems like it miss a purpose. It pretty much look lie a random collection of three forwards thrown on the ice for a couple of shifts a game. It would be nice if you could explain your point of view on this. My fourth is an offensive oriented line with some grit that will be use to be a momentum changer and will be thrown sporadically on the ice. They definitely have enough firepower to change the momentum of the game by a nice scoring change, or at the very least with Shack throwing his body around or fight the first player that dare to watch him the wrong way. (Feel free to click on Almetov or Loktev link to read their biography and learn more on them)

    1st D-pairing: I have probably the best first pairing of the draft (at least top-3) in Harvey-Flaman. Both of them are incredible in the transition game and will be able to use the speed of Firsov - Lach and Dillon very effectively. Tim Horton is a rock at defence, but will it really be enough to stop all those guys, while trying to repair Flash Hollett mistakes. We both don't have a Patrick Roy in goal to repair our defenceman mistake, so that matchup could be very costly to you.

    2nd D-Pairing: Ebbie Goodfellow is a versatile, great defenceman, but Zdeno Chara, especially with another Norris nomination this year, is really closing in on him. Keith Magnusson was a nice physical defenceman, but you're underselling Bert Corbeau if you think the edge is very small between both of them. Feel free to click those biography links on my team to learn on him.

    3rd pairing: I like Roman Hamrlik and he's a decent #6 defenceman in this draft, but Jerry Korab was one of the best offensive weapon from the backend in the 1970's. He was a monster and an extremely physical player. He's paired with a nice defensive d-man in Bobby Rowe, 5-time PCHA AS.

    Goaltending: I think I've spent enough time selling Al Rollins. Whenever someone is unsure of him and have 30-40 minutes to lose, just read the biography I've done on him, it's worth it I think. with that in mind, I would like some education on Lorne Chabot and why you think you have any kind of edge over me in that regard. Counting cups and statistics without any backgrounds isn't worth a whole lot. In my evaluation of Rollins placement, after reading on Chabot, it's clear in my mind that he was the better goaltender, but you might know something I don't

    Special team: Something that cannot be forgotten. I have one of the best overall PK unit of the entire draft, and my #1PK is perhaps the best around. My 1st PP unit I feel is extremely well builted and could be deadly. I do like however the players on your first PP unit, but I'm unsure how they will work. Again, will one puck be enough on the ice?

    Coach: I really like my pairing of Art Ross and Lloyd Percival. Ross is a defensive oriented coach with a strict attitude, which fit my team like a glove, and Percival will be up there to keep my players and tip-top condition for all season. You do seem to have a team than mesh well with Punch Imlach, which is not always easy to do.


    Overall, I think I will win this serie. Will Lindros be able to keep his head up and not get destroyed by one of Harvey, Flaman, Chara or Corbeau? Will Horton be great enough to counter all of Harvery and Flaman strong transitional play and Firsov, Lach and Dillon speed while trying to find a way to keep Hollett out of trouble in the defensive zone. Having a Leclair-Lindros second line could be deadly against a lot of teams, but I don't think they got the greatest matchup against Zdeno Chara and Bert Corbeau, two monster that definitely have the muscle to keep up with them? Is Morenz enough of an incredible player to counter the fact that he's playing with a below average first liner and a very out of place first line RW and not be badly outscore by Harvey, Lach, Firsov, Dillon and co? The voters will decide I guess!

    I'm missing batteries and I need to catch my plain now. Good Luck Monster_Bertuzzi.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2011
  11. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2006
    Messages:
    47,471
    Likes Received:
    1,711
    Trophy Points:
    186
    Location:
    Brooklyn
    Awards:
    Chara really needs to get something done in the playoffs to cement his legacy. I think his regular season resume has now surpassed Rob Blake's and perhaps even that of Scott Niedermayer by now. But as a shut down defenseman, it sure would be nice to see him actually shut down a star player in the playoffs when things really matter.
     
  12. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2006
    Messages:
    47,471
    Likes Received:
    1,711
    Trophy Points:
    186
    Location:
    Brooklyn
    Awards:
    Both of you claim the better goalie, but I haven't seen an in-depth comparison yet. Hopefully one of you has time.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2011
  13. EagleBelfour

    EagleBelfour Registered User

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2005
    Messages:
    7,453
    Likes Received:
    31
    Trophy Points:
    101
    Home Page:
    I really don't have time to do an indepth comparision of the two goaltender, but I think I've done my part showing the worth of my own goaltender (Havn't I?). It Would be interesting reading something on Lorne Chabot other than counting cup I agree.

    And on the Chara front, I very much agree with all you said. His regular season resume is starting to be extremely impressive, even in an All-Time context, but he need to prove his worth in the playoffs. I cannot talk about this year, as I've seen almost no hockey, but prior to that I never consider him a great shutdown defenceman against the best player, like those great defenceman usually do. I guess we'll see in this year playoffs.
     
  14. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2006
    Messages:
    47,471
    Likes Received:
    1,711
    Trophy Points:
    186
    Location:
    Brooklyn
    Awards:
    I just looked and with a top 3 finish this year, Chara actually has a better Norris record than either Niedermayer or Blake. It's not a huge difference, but it's there. Now about those playoffs...

    EB, I did read your tome on Rollins. Without doing much work, I'd say Rollins has two elite seasons to one for Chabot. Both have several other good to very good seasons, I think. Chabot has more playoff success, but I'm unclear how big a part of it he may have been.

    Edit: huh, now that I look at it, Chabot really doesn't have a better playoff record than Rollins overall. Chabot does have 2 Cups but those two teams were fairly stacked and maybe could have won even more. What on Earth did THN see in him?
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2011
  15. EagleBelfour

    EagleBelfour Registered User

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2005
    Messages:
    7,453
    Likes Received:
    31
    Trophy Points:
    101
    Home Page:
    Yep, and we only have to put in consideration that in a All-Time context, his tremendous size and PK ability are very important. With that in mind, if I win that series and you win yours, I'm feeling far more comfortable with Chara and his shutdown abilities against Starshinov/Lewis than the Richard brother. He's not there yet in an All-Time context.

    I count 1950-51, 1952-53, 1953-54 as three elite season. I know Sturm disagree on 1950-51, I don't know which of those you disagree with. In 1950-51 he was light-out exceptional and every bit as good as Terry Sawchuk. Sawchuk deserves all his awards because he played all season while Rollins played 40 games that year only, but in those games he was at that level. And just like Roy Worters, Rollins played good when he had the chance to prove himself in the playoffs. He was the man of confidence over Turk Broda when they won the cup in 1951, and he was exceptional in the 1953 series against the Habs and barely lost.

    I think 70's explanation his probably the right one as to why Chabot was voted in the THN top-100: one voters placed him very high on his list while he was obviously left out on everyone else's list. Placing one time very high was worth more in how they compile the list than placing lower on numerous list.
     
  16. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2006
    Messages:
    47,471
    Likes Received:
    1,711
    Trophy Points:
    186
    Location:
    Brooklyn
    Awards:
    2.5 elite seasons? Heh.

    I don't take the guys in the bottom 20-30 of the THN list seriously at all because of what you said - one voter voting a guy really high could put him on the bottom of the list, and there was just no discussion. I actually do take the top 50 or so of the list very seriously as a summary of who the hockey establishment values historically.
     
  17. monster_bertuzzi

    monster_bertuzzi registered user

    Joined:
    May 26, 2003
    Messages:
    32,734
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Vancouver
    Home Page:
    Chabot:

    Reg: 441 wins - 2.04 GAA

    PO: 37 wins - 1.54 GAA - 2 cups

    Rollins:

    Reg: 430 wins - 2.78 GAA

    PO: 13 wins - 2.38 GAA - 0 cups

    The slaughtering in the GAA and the playoff experience is the kicker for me. I think this one's obvious...
     
  18. seventieslord

    seventieslord Student Of The Game

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2006
    Messages:
    32,106
    Likes Received:
    1,055
    Trophy Points:
    169
    Location:
    Regina, SK
    You don't think that had a little bit to do with the eras in which they played?

    Come on, we are so past comparing two players' raw stats whose careers don't come close to overlapping, as though it means something. And we should also be past comparing two goalies by GAA, particularly when there are better ways to judge goalies.
     
  19. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2006
    Messages:
    47,471
    Likes Received:
    1,711
    Trophy Points:
    186
    Location:
    Brooklyn
    Awards:
    Chabot has a playoff record of 13-17-6. 37 games played, not wins. He does have 2 Cups with 2 different team, which is... Something.
     
  20. monster_bertuzzi

    monster_bertuzzi registered user

    Joined:
    May 26, 2003
    Messages:
    32,734
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Vancouver
    Home Page:
    He does, you're right. Thats my bad.

    Love the sarcastic quip at the end there too. We're talking about two poor starters here.
     
  21. seventieslord

    seventieslord Student Of The Game

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2006
    Messages:
    32,106
    Likes Received:
    1,055
    Trophy Points:
    169
    Location:
    Regina, SK
    :amazed:

    someone just admitted that their team is "poor" at a position.

    I think I need to take a screenshot!
     
  22. EagleBelfour

    EagleBelfour Registered User

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2005
    Messages:
    7,453
    Likes Received:
    31
    Trophy Points:
    101
    Home Page:
    I think both MB and myself admitted that Chabot and Rollins were bottom-end starter in this draft. Nothing to get sarcastic about.

    And I will echo both 70's and TDMM comment that using raw stats for comparing goaltenders is worth next to nothing. Keep in mind that Rollins played in goal for the worst teams of the Original-Six era.
     
  23. Sturminator

    Sturminator I voted for Kodos

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2002
    Messages:
    8,882
    Likes Received:
    108
    Trophy Points:
    154
    Location:
    West Egg, New York
    On the same token, many of the guys at the bottom of the list are clearly criminally underrated, so you have to take the top-50 with something of a grain of salt, as well. Frank Nighbor at 99 (I think it was) is probably the best example of this.
     
  24. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2006
    Messages:
    47,471
    Likes Received:
    1,711
    Trophy Points:
    186
    Location:
    Brooklyn
    Awards:
    True of course. I find it useful to know where the list's failings are too - it's fairly useless for players who played before the 1930s, when research would have actually been required and the panel couldn't just rely on memory or the accounts of elders. It also appears biased towards Original 6 players who most of the panel grew up watching, and it obviously places a heavy emphasis on winning the Cup.
     
  25. Sturminator

    Sturminator I voted for Kodos

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2002
    Messages:
    8,882
    Likes Received:
    108
    Trophy Points:
    154
    Location:
    West Egg, New York
    Agreed. The O6 bias and the bias against prewar players (who weren't Montreal Canadiens...the gap between Lalonde and Nighbor is silly) are the most jarring elements of their list. Still, it's a pretty good document, all things considered.
     

Share This Page

monitoring_string = "358c248ada348a047a4b9bb27a146148"