ATD2011 Sam Pollock Semi: (2) Gwinnett Gladiators vs. (3) Chicago Steelers

Discussion in 'All Time Draft' started by seventieslord, Apr 28, 2011.

  1. seventieslord

    seventieslord Student Of The Game

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    Gwinnett Gladiators

    Head Coach: Cecil Hart
    Captain: Hooley Smith
    Assistant Captains: Frank Foyston, Thomas Steen


    #10 - Frank Foyston (a) // #7 - Frank Boucher // #12 - Bill Guerin
    #15 - Dany Heatley // #5 - Frank Fredrickson // #6 - Hooley Smith (c)
    #17 - Dave Balon // #26 - Thomas Steen (a) // #9 - Wilf Paiement
    #14 - Brian Rolston // #11 - Bob Carpenter // #25 Paul MacLean

    #2 - Jacques Laperriere // #77 - Paul Coffey
    #4 - Dave Burrows // #3 - Georges Boucher
    #24 - Mark Tinordi // #44 - Kimmo Timonen

    #35 - Tom Barrasso
    #20 - Evgeni Nabokov

    #42 - Pierre Mondou, #22 - Mario Marois, #8 - Curt Fraser, #27 - Glen Murray


    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    PP1:
    F. Boucher - Heatley - Fredrickson
    Coffey // G. Boucher // Timonen

    PP2:
    Foyston - MacLean - Smith
    Coffey // G. Boucher // Timonen

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    PK1
    Rolston - Smith
    Burrows - Laperriere

    PK2
    F. Boucher - Carpenter
    Tinordi - G. Boucher

    PK3
    Steen - Paiement
    extra D: Timonen

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

    VS

    Chicago Steelers
    [​IMG]

    GMs: Reds4Life & JohnnyD

    Head Coach: Anatoli Tarasov
    Assistant Coach: Frank Patrick

    Captain: Valeri Vasiliev
    Assistant Captains: Serge Savard, Daniel Alfredsson


    Alexander Ovechkin - Sergei Fedorov - Daniel Alfredsson A
    Paul Thompson - Jeremy Roenick - Mark Recchi
    Ross Lonsberry - Don McKenney - John MacLean
    John Sorrell - Vyacheslav Bykov - Viktor Shalimov

    Valeri Vasiliev C - Serge Savard A
    Jean-Guy Talbot - Gennady Tsygankov
    Randy Gregg - Jiri Bubla

    Grant Fuhr
    Vladimir Myshkin

    Spares:
    Marty McSorley, RW/D; Jonathan Toews, C; John Ferguson, LW

    Special Teams:

    PP1
    Ovechkin - Roenick - Recchi
    Talbot - Fedorov

    PP2
    Thompson - McKenney - Shalimov
    Bubla - Alfredsson


    PK1
    Fedorov - MacLean
    Vasiliev - Savard

    PK2
    McKenney - Lonsberry
    Talbot - Tsygankov

    PK3
    Roenick - Alfredsson
    Vasiliev - Savard

     
  2. Hawkey Town 18

    Hawkey Town 18 Registered User

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    A few quick notes/observations on this series before we get to the real stuff...

    If you could pick any center to neutralize Paul Coffey, Sergei Federov would be at or near the top of the list. He has that combination of great defensive skills/instincts and elite skating ability that you need against a guy like Coffey (H. Richard was the other guy that instantly came to mind).


    My opponent is an offensive team that likes their defensemen to rush the puck. Our top 2 lines both have speedy wingers that are great goal scorers in Ovechkin and Thompson, which will be a huge threat on the counter attack when their rushes get broken up. One of those two, Ovechkin, is one of the best in the ATD in this role.


    We have a fairly large edge in coaching with Tarasov and F. Patrick vs. Cecil Hart


    We also have the edge in net with Fuhr vs. Barrasso. Both guys that raise their games in the playoffs, but Fuhr does more so, and is the better goalie to begin with as well.
     
  3. BraveCanadian

    BraveCanadian Registered User

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    I agree with you about this as far as Fedorov pressing Coffey coming out of his own zone and during transitions in the neutral zone. The problem is that Coffey is probably the best long passer ever.

    If Fedorov is used to try and hinder Coffey then you are either leaving the center free for long breaking passes (if you are doubling up on Coffey with the winger) or other players are shuffling around out of position to cover. Maybe you can effectively do that and maybe not.

    I know he gets a bad rap because he fell off so much late in his career but Coffey (for most of his career) is really a game changing type player.
     
  4. Hawkey Town 18

    Hawkey Town 18 Registered User

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    Hmmm...I was thinking about this in a slightly different way. I was thinking the wingers would be pressuring Coffey in their zone/coming out of their zone, while Fedorov cuts off the passing angles by backing off a bit. If Coffey is able to come out on a rush he will not be able to just skate by a guy like Fedorov. Fedorov's skating and defensive abilities should be able to slow up Coffey enough to give the wingers time to back-check negating any odd-man situations Coffey was looking to create by rushing.

    Edit: Just wanted to add that I'm not saying Fedorov will completely shut down Coffey and make him a non-factor (I don't think any one player could do that, but he will make him much less effective than he usually because of his extremely unique combination of elite skating and elite defense)
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2011
  5. Sturminator

    Sturminator I voted for Kodos

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    We have a small lineup change to announce - something I decided upon a while ago, but decided to leave to the playoffs as a little surprise. Gwinnett's defensive pairings will now look like this:

    #2 - Jacques Laperriere // #3 - George Boucher
    #4 - Dave Burrows // #77 - Paul Coffey
    #24 - Mark Tinordi // #44 - Kimmo Timonen

    Icetime for Gwinnett's skaters in the playoffs will break down as follows:

    Forward Minutes

    Defensemen minutes

    A quick explanation of the icetime breakdown:

    - the top defensive units will get 18 and 17 minutes/game at even strength as pairings, respectively. The third unit will get 7 minutes per game as a pairing. The four "extra minutes" in Coffey and Timonen's numbers relative to their partners come from the fact that they will be deployed as a pairing for offensive zone draws shortly before scheduled stoppages (TV timeouts and the ends of periods).

    - Laperriere / G. Boucher will be deployed against opposing top lines, while Burrows / Coffey will be deployed primarily to attack second and lower units.

    - I think the balance of the new pairings is more sensible. Having Boucher as a partner frees up Laperriere to play more of a two-way game, and pure defensive defenseman Burrows is a natural fit as the babysitter for Paul Coffey.

    - nothing much changes for the forwards, besides the benches getting shorter.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2011
  6. Sturminator

    Sturminator I voted for Kodos

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    Richard was not the skater that Fedorov was, and definitely not the skater than Coffey was.

    I'm not sure I would go so far as to call Paul Thompson a "great" goal-scorer, even as a second liner. Thompson had one really notable season as a goalscorer in 1937-38, which was a quite weak season for the NHL. Finishing 3rd is nice...getting beat by Georges Mantha in your best goalscoring season...not so nice. Thompson fell well back of the leaders in his other notable goalscoring seasons.

    Really? I'm not so sure. Gwinnett is almost a perfect match for Hart's flowing, attacking style of hockey. Chicago is a reasonable match for Tasarov's style, other than its best offensive player, Ovechkin, whose defensive indifference and showboating would not go over well with Tasarov. You drafted Frank Patrick as a sort of "players' coach" band-aid to the situation, but I don't know what that accomplishes. Frank Patrick was actually a pretty poor coach, and his Vancouver teams among the worst chokers in hockey history. As an actual X's and O's coach, I can't imagine him having any say in Tasarov's system. I'm not sure how much Patrick being a nice guy gets you here.

    Was Grant Fuhr a better goalie than Tom Barrasso? Here are their respective Vezina voting records (minimum ten points):

    Fuhr: 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 6th

    Barrasso: 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd

    If there is a meaningful difference between them as regular season goalies, Barrasso has the advantage. In terms of overall talent and production, they are really quite close. Barrasso was hurt more often than Fuhr, but he played less than 50 regular season ATD games this season, and should be perfectly fresh. In terms of actual talent, there is very little discernable difference here.

    Both men raised their level of play when the chips were down. I will concede a small advantage to Fuhr here simply because he won more Cups, but both were great playoff goalies capable of stealing a game or taking over a series. This is a much closer contest than their respective draft positions would indicate. Tom Barrasso should have been an ATD starter even at 28 teams.
     
  7. Sturminator

    Sturminator I voted for Kodos

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    Unfortunately, the winger who will have checking responsibilities on Coffey's side when Fedorov is on the ice is Alexander Ovechkin. I think the problems with expecting much out of Ovechkin defensively are more than obvious, and while defensive wingers can be used to check the center (something Bob Gainey did often), they cannot be realistically used to pressure the opposite wing, which is what you need if you expect Alfredsson to have much of an impact on Coffey's rushing. You might do better to move Paul Thompson onto the Fedorov line if you are really serious about checking Paul Coffey with your forwards, though the wisdom of rearranging your units to chase Paul Coffey around is highly questionable.

    At any rate, Sergei Fedorov is overmatched by Frank Boucher even before Paul Coffey enters the equation. Alfredsson can be of some help here, but that pretty well precludes him being active on the forecheck. You don't have enough fingers to plug up the dam.

    At any rate, the Laperriere / Boucher pairing will be deployed against the Ovechkin line whenever possible, so you'll get the Fedorov vs. Coffey matchup, insofar as it is useful, less than half of the time. I think the best strategy with Paul Coffey is to let him tear lower units to shreds at even strength, where his his extreme risk/reward balance offers more reward with lower risk. The ability to deploy Coffey in this manner is the reason I went out of my way to draft such a strong top 3 defense.
     
  8. MadArcand

    MadArcand Whaletarded

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    Can we please not use imaginary arguments in the ATD?
     
  9. Sturminator

    Sturminator I voted for Kodos

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    As I stated clearly when I posted my roster in the assassination thread what the regular season breakdown between Barrasso and Nabokov would be, I don't think it's an imaginary argument, at all, and most likely hurt Gwinnett in the regular season voting. Here is the quote:

    Determining regular season and postseason usage rate and TOI is one of the prerogatives of an ATD GM. I can't help if you didn't pay attention.
     
  10. Dreakmur

    Dreakmur Registered User

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    If GMs are detrmining ice time, what do the coaches do?
     
  11. MadArcand

    MadArcand Whaletarded

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    1. you should've added that info to roster thread as well, as I imagine that is the primary voting resource (and should be kept up to date)

    2. how can you guarantee either of your goalies wasn't injured and the other one didn't have to play more than you planned for him?
     
  12. Sturminator

    Sturminator I voted for Kodos

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    I'm not a big fan of cluttering up roster threads, and at any rate, I assume that GMs take the time to read the arguments as they are presented.

    Given Nabokov's durability, if either of the goalies needed more rest, it was almost certainly Tom Barrasso.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2011
  13. Sturminator

    Sturminator I voted for Kodos

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    Coaches coach. Determining the icetime and usage rate of our players is an ATD convention that predates me, and I've been around for awhile. As it has always been the assumption that the whole careers of ATD players are known to the coaches in our little imaginary universe, any sensible coach, when faced with a tandem of Barrasso and Nabokov, would choose to lean on Nabokov's strong regular season credentials and take it easy on the fragile Barrasso. It's not rocket science. Barrasso was a vastly superior postseason player to Nabokov, and his only playoff hiccup came in a season in which his coach (Scotty Bowman) chose to ride him in pursuit of a meaningless record for something like 30 games straight to end the season. I chose Evgeni Nabokov specifically to take pressure off of Barrasso in the regular season, and stated as much at the time I drafted him.
     
  14. MadArcand

    MadArcand Whaletarded

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    I don't disagree with your plan or reasoning, I just greatly dislike this tendency to make up what happened in regular season or what exact line-matching will a team always get. You can plan things like that, but to say willy-nilly that 'this and this happened'?
     
  15. Sturminator

    Sturminator I voted for Kodos

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    A fair enough point. I'm not a fan of absolute assumptions about line-matching, either, which is why I like to qualify statements about such coaching decisions with phrases like "whenever possible". As far as setting a cap on Barrasso's regular season usage - it's not farfetched, at all, given Nabokov's durability, and in fact this kind of decision is often made over the coach's head in the real NHL.
     
  16. MadArcand

    MadArcand Whaletarded

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    I agree it's not far-fetched. I just hated the phrasing. :laugh:

    For the record, I actually like Barrasso here more than Fuhr. (OTOH Guerin is still scary as hell on top line, and not in the good way. He fits the line well enough but he still has to be among the worst 1st liners in the draft)
     
  17. Sturminator

    Sturminator I voted for Kodos

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    Insofar as anyone expects to get special teams production out of him, I agree with you. It is not normal for a top liner to play 15 minutes at even strength, and nothing more, so in that sense Guerin is terrible for a top liner. At even strength, however, he's actually quite similar to the first line right wing of your division semifinals opponent, Lanny McDonald. Placing top-10 in even strength goals four times and top-5 twice (top 10 in overall goals three times) in the European era is not bad, at all.

    Here are some post-expansion first liners:

    Dave Taylor, Clark Gillies, Steve Larmer, Vic Hadfield, Hakan Loob, Charlie Simmer, Al Secord

    Guerin was a better even strength scorer (in terms of points, not just goals) than all of these guys (ok, Loob is debatable). He's also skating on a line with two of the greatest playoff performers in hockey history.
     
  18. Reds4Life

    Reds4Life Registered User

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    Fedorov is overmatched? Please. Fedorov is arguably a better playoff performer than Frank Boucher. Not to mention the size and strength advantage Fedorov has over Frank Boucher.

    Your first line wingers, especially Guerin, are overmatched.
    In addition to our first line forward advantage, we have a huge advantage over your first defense pair. Ovechkin is backed up by Savard and Vasiliev, so even though he is only average defensively, it does not take anything away from him. He is there to score goals, and he *is* the best goalscorer on either team..by far.
    If our first lines go against each other, I really like that matchup for us.

    As for the coach advantage, Tarasov is far better coach than Cecil Hart. That is not even arguable, so not even you can dispute that.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2011
  19. Sturminator

    Sturminator I voted for Kodos

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    No offense, but you seem to lack both knowledge and respect when it comes to older players. Frank Boucher was the greatest playoff player of his generation (the only other player even in the conversation is Marty Barry), and his performance in the 1928 playoffs among the single greatest playoff runs of all-time. As good as Fedorov was, he was never on that level. He was simply not as good a player.

    Really? You think there's a big difference between Vasiliev - Savard and Laperriere - Boucher? With most of the questions answered about George Boucher's skating, he is very clearly a top-40 defenseman of all-time, and may be in the top 30. I'm not at all sure that he isn't better than Vasiliev. Boucher is well ahead offensively, and was a strong defensive player, as well. The pairings are built similarly, with two players who are legitimate low-end #1s at 40 teams. Chicago's is stronger defensively, but lacks much in the way of offense, while Gwinnett's is more balanced. If there is a talent level difference here, it is small, and I'm not sure how useful it is to have a top pairing with low-end puck movement behind such an offensive set of forwards.

    Let's also not forget that George Boucher was, at least once in his career, the dominant playoff performer for a Cup winner. From the Ottawa Citizen - December 8, 1920:

    I think the article speaks for itself.

    Ugh...how much do you know about Cecil Hart's career to make such a statement?

    Lol at Ovechkin being "average" defensively.
     
  20. Reds4Life

    Reds4Life Registered User

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    Obviously you think so, but that does not make it right. IMHO Fedorov's four consecutive 20+ points playoffs are arguably better than Boucher's resume. I do think that stating that Fedorov is overmatched by Frank Boucher is ridiculous..and yet you speak about my lack of respect. And no offense taken, I do not care much for your petty remarks to be honest. So feel free to continue.

    Yes, IMHO it is a considerable advantage for us. As for low-end puck moving skills, they are not Coffeys, but you once again overstate and overhype whatever suits you.

    For all I care, you can think whatever you want, but if you can't even admit that Tarasov is a better coach, I have nothing else to add to that. There's no point.

    He is average defensively considering his primary role on the team, it's not like he's Bure the cherry-picker. Ovechkin is surrounded by great defensive players, and he is by far the greatest goalscorer on the team (including yours), so his defensive ability is good enough for that.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2011
  21. Hawkey Town 18

    Hawkey Town 18 Registered User

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    I'm pretty surprised you are arguing this one. You have a good coach and a team built to play his style. We have a coach some consider the greatest coach of all time and have also built a team to fit his style.

    The Ovechkin issue is being blown out of proportion...Yes, he is flashy, but it's not like he has this huge ego that gets in the way of following his coaches instructions or is problematic in the locker room. We have done pretty much everything you can do to balance the relationship between him and Tarasov: Drafted a players' coach as an assistant, made a Russian legend our Team Captain, put Ovechkin on the same line with another Russian legend he looks up to in Fedorov, and have an Alternate Captain as the winger on his line. If this doesn't work, then you are pretty much saying Ovechkin can NEVER work on a Tarasov coached team, and I don't buy that at all.

    As for Frank Patrick, I'd like to start off by reminding everyone that you don't even have an assistant coach, so even if you don't think as highly of him as I think you should he's still better than the faceless yes man we are to assume your team has. That being said, I think Frank Patrick is a perfect compliment to Tarasov. They are on the same page in some respects in regards to being innovative and advocates of on-ice discipline, but he also gives something different being a players' coach. I don't know why you think he was "sort of a players' coach?" His bio has multiple quotes that talk about it. He is also perfect for an assistant's role because he often had to play second fiddle to Art Ross in his NHL days.

    I definitely think you got a steal where you drafted Barrasso and it is closer than draft position would indicate, but he is not at Fuhr's level. I also question your arbitrary 10 point cutoff for Vezina voting. The Vezina is only voted on by the GM's, so for most of Fuhr's prime that's only 21 voters. I think you need to consider the seasons where he's only getting 3 votes or so, because that's 15% of the voters considering him a contender/Top 3 goalie. If it were another award like the Hart that had something like 65 voters, you would certainly make note of a guy who got 10 votes. Fuhr also was in a 50/50 regular season split with Andy Moog for his early years in Edmonton, which had to hurt his Vezina record. It should be noted that Fuhr was the clear #1 when it came to the post season.

    Barrasso is a clutch/money goaltender who raises his game in the playoffs, but Fuhr is to a bigger degree. I would call it more than a "small advantage."

    Finally, there was a period of time in the mid to late 80's where Fuhr was considered the best goaltender in the world. While Barrasso was considered among the best, he was never held in this regard.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2011
  22. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    Ovechkin is much more responsible than Bure, but you don't have to be that bad to be below average.

    I like the plan of using Fedorov to forecheck Coffey, to the extent you can get it.

    I also like sturm's plan of moving Coffey to the second pairing.

    Sturm, can you post more specifics of why you think Boucher I'd the best playoff performer of his era? You may have mentioned it before, but if you did, I don't remember specifics. I always think of the 30s as a time of no real standout playoff performers.
     
  23. Hawkey Town 18

    Hawkey Town 18 Registered User

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    Let's not forget that Sergei Fedorov was the dominant playoff performer on a team that in a stretch of 4 years made it to 3 Finals, 1 Conference Finals, and won 2 Cups.

    Wings Top 2 Players Over That Time
    Fedorov: 78GP - 27G - 57A - 84Pts
    Yzerman: 75GP - 25G - 44A - 69Pts

    Fedorov dominated offensively while remaining an elite defensive player. He also showed that he could adjust his game to be more of a playmaker.
     
  24. Sturminator

    Sturminator I voted for Kodos

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    I'm not really sure who considers Tasarov among the greatest coaches of all-time, or why, insofar as they do. Tasarov was undoubtedly a great builder, but as a coach, I'm not so sure. He has a reputation for ruthlessness and draconian training methods more than anything else, but this is not 1960's Soviet hockey. I think friction with not only Ovechkin, but also Fedorov (who was not always a picture of motivation, himself), is more or less inevitable. That doesn't mean they can't work together, but as I don't get the love for Tasarov as a coach in the first place...eh, he just doesn't do it for me.

    You mean like this season:

    1983-84: Tom Barrasso 42 (4-6-4); Rejean Lemelin 39 (5-4-2); Pat Riggin 37 (5-3-3); Al Jensen 37 (4-5-2); Dan Bouchard 11 (0-2-5); Grant Fuhr 6 (1-0-1); Chico Resch 5 (1-0-0); Billy Smith 5 (1-0-0)

    In a league with only 21 teams where your own GM can vote for you (and Sather was a notorious Oilers homer, even to the point of dicking up Team Canada on occasion), is the above really all that impressive? I thought I was being even-handed to set the cutoff at ten points to capture Fuhr's 6th place season. I could have just set the cutoff at being a Vezina finalist if I wanted to make Barrasso look better.

    Not true. Barrasso was called the best goalie in the world by many people after winning the Vezina and then starring in the 1984 Canada Cup for the USA. He may have been the best in the world at that point, though it wasn't exactly the golden age of goalies. Barrasso was never considered better than Roy after he came into the league, but then again, neither was Grant Fuhr.
     
  25. Sturminator

    Sturminator I voted for Kodos

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    Yes, I will. You'll have to wait until tomorrow for that one, though.
     

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