ATD2011 Sam Pollock Finals: (1) McGuire's Monsters vs. (2) Gwinnett Gladiators

Discussion in 'All Time Draft' started by Velociraptor, May 7, 2011.

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  1. Velociraptor

    Velociraptor Registered User

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    McGuire's Monsters

    Head Coach: Arkady Chernyshev
    Assistant Coach: Rudy Pilous

    Alf Smith (A) - Norm Ullman - Andy Bathgate
    Fred Stanfeild - Tom Dunderdale - Jack Marshall
    Pete Mahovlich - Edgar Laprade - Andy Hebenton
    Red Hamill - Paul Haynes - Peter McNab
    Spares: Eddie Wiseman, Viktor Shuvalov

    Ray Bourque (C) - Ted Green (A)
    Hod Stuart - Pat Egan
    Hy Buller - Ken Randall
    Spares: Kent Douglas

    Vladislav Tretiak
    Mike Richter


    vs.


    Gwinnett Gladiators

    Head Coach: Cecil Hart

    #17 - Dave Balon // #7 - Frank Boucher // #12 - Bill Guerin
    #15 - Dany Heatley // #5 - Frank Fredrickson // #6 - Hooley Smith (c)
    #10 - Frank Foyston (a) // #26 - Thomas Steen (a) // #9 - Wilf Paiement / Rolston
    #14 - Brian Rolston / Paiement // #11 - Bob Carpenter // #25 Paul MacLean

    #2 - Jacques Laperriere // #3 - George Boucher
    #4 - Dave Burrows // #77 - Paul Coffey
    #24 - Mark Tinordi // #44 - Kimmo Timonen

    #35 - Tom Barrasso
    #20 - Evgeni Nabokov

    Icetime breakdown as follows:

    Forward Minutes

    Defensemen minutes
     
    Last edited by moderator seventieslord: May 10, 2011
  2. Velociraptor

    Velociraptor Registered User

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    McGuire's Monsters

    Please post special teams in thread.

    Gwinnett Gladiators

    PP1: F. Boucher - Heatley - Fredrickson - Coffey // G. Boucher // Timonen
    PP2: Foyston - MacLean - Smith - Coffey // G. Boucher // Timonen

    PK1: Rolston - Smith - Burrows - Laperriere
    PK2: F. Boucher - Carpenter - Tinordi - G. Boucher
    PK3: Steen - Paiement - Timonen - Extra D
     
  3. Sturminator

    Sturminator I voted for Kodos

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    Lineup change to announce. This is the new Gwinnett lineup:

    #17 - Dave Balon // #7 - Frank Boucher // #12 - Bill Guerin
    #15 - Dany Heatley // #5 - Frank Fredrickson // #6 - Hooley Smith (c)
    #10 - Frank Foyston (a) // #26 - Thomas Steen (a) // #9 - Wilf Paiement / Rolston
    #14 - Brian Rolston / Paiement // #11 - Bob Carpenter // #25 Paul MacLean

    #2 - Jacques Laperriere // #3 - George Boucher
    #4 - Dave Burrows // #77 - Paul Coffey
    #24 - Mark Tinordi // #44 - Kimmo Timonen

    #35 - Tom Barrasso
    #20 - Evgeni Nabokov​

    Icetime breakdown as follows:

    Forward Minutes

    Defensemen minutes

    - nothing changes with the defense.

    - Hart will roll the three top forward lines. Whichever line happens to be on the ice against the Monsters' Ullman / Bathgate unit will play a locking system.

    - when the Foyston line is up for a change on the fly and the Bathgate line is out there, Rolston will move in on the unit's right wing and will drop back into line with the defensemen. If the Foyston line is out there when the Bathgate line comes on, this job will fall to Foyston.

    - when the Boucher and Smith lines are on the ice against the Bathgate line, the hook-checkers on the line will drop back to the blueline with the defensemen, something both Boucher and Smith have a lot of experience in doing. The remaining two forwards will be free to play as normal, though Dave Balon will shadow Andy Bathgate when they're out there together.

    - the goal here is simply to harrass and stifle the Monsters' top line as much as possible without the need for elaborate line-matching schemes, and then to dominate the remaining matchups with superior personnel.

    - the Coffey pairing will again be used to attack lower units whenever possible.

    - when the Monsters get their top line on the ice against the Burrows / Coffey pairing at even strength (which will happen sometimes), all bets are off, and Gwinnett will simply attack as normal. There is no sense in trying to fit Paul Coffey into a locking scheme.

    - the Coffey / Burrows pairing will not be used on defensive zone draws. With that in mind, I don't particularly care what Chernyshev does with the last change on home ice after puck stoppages.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2011
  4. Dreakmur

    Dreakmur Registered User

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    I look forward to this match-up against Gwinnett. They look like a solid team, so the Monsters are in tough here. Just a few quick observations before we really get into things:

    -Monsters have a decisive edge on the 1st line.
    -Gwinnett has a decisive edge on the 2nd line.
    -Monsters have a small, but difinitive, edge on the 3rd line.
    -4th lines are pretty even.

    -Monster have a small edge on the 1st pair.
    -Gwinnett has a decisive edge on the 2nd pair
    -Monsters have a small edge on the 3rd pair

    -Mosters have a decisive edge in net.
    -Gwinnett has a small edge on the bench.

    I'm sure we will discuss the impact of those advantages and disadvantes as we get going here. Hopefully, we can both argue honestly and fairly through this series, and hopefully the voters are ready for a pretty lively debate! :naughty:
     
  5. Sturminator

    Sturminator I voted for Kodos

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    I assume you were comparing the third lines before Foyston was moved onto Gwinnett's nominal third unit? Even before I made the switch, though, I can't say I agree with this statement. Mahovlich was a better player than Dave Balon, but that is because of his penalty-killing abilities. At even strength, I would have a hard time deciding between them. Both are very strong two-way third liners at even strength. Thomas Steen was just a better player than Edgar Laprade. Laprade is maybe a bit better defensively, but Steen is clearly better offensively and much tougher. Paiement vs. Hebenton is a similar comparison. As two-way players there isn't much to choose between them (though I think Paiement was better offensively), but Paiement is a hell of a lot more physical and aggressive than Byng winner Hebenton. The Monsters' third line is quite soft, with two Byng winners and a "gentle giant" in Mahovlich, while Gwinnett's is tough and physical at every position.

    Gwinnett's forwards are a plus physically on every line, and I can't see a line as soft as the Monsters' third being very effective in this series because I don't think they'll see much of the puck.

    Do you really think so? Hy Buller, with his two and a half seasons in the NHL, is one of the worst starting defensemen in the ATD, while Mark Tinordi is a strong #6 who had a nice run as one of the better defensive defenseman in the league at his peak. With that in mind, Ken Randall would have to be a hell of a lot better than Kimmo Timonen for the pairings to even be equal. Is he? I seriously doubt it. Randall was a strong, tough two-way player, though not one of the stars of his era, and he spent so much time at forward I have a hard time taking his scoring credentials seriously if he's playing on the blueline.

    Timonen is one of the most underrated defensemen in the ATD, and one of the most underrated current players, period. Over the last decade, he has led his teams in ATOI in seven seasons and been within 10 seconds of 1st twice more. Last year he was second to Chris Pronger by a margin of a couple of minutes. Kimmo is one of those modern players who has been really underappreciated because he spent his best years in a backwater market and because the skills that make him special are subtle and easy to miss if you don't watch him regularly. He was unquestionably Nashville's best player during his peak years there, and many Flyers fans will tell you he was Philly's best player in his first two years there before Pronger came to town.

    At 40 teams, I think Timonen is actually a pretty good two-way #4 defenseman. He's been selected to four all-star games, though he couldn't play in 2000 due to injury. He stacks up very well against a lot of #4s in this league, and is among the elite third pairing guys. I have a hard time seeing Randall as being on that level, nevermind better. Gwinnett has the better third pairing, and it's not that close, in my opinion.
     
  6. Dreakmur

    Dreakmur Registered User

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    Agreed Mahovlich and Balon are about equal at even strength, and agreed that Mahovlich is a mich better penalty killer.

    Agreed Hebenton and Paiement are about equal.

    Edgar Laprade is definately better than Tomas Steen. Offensively, they appear to be fairly comparable. Defensively, however, Laprade is definately much stronger. He was one of the best defensive forwards of his era, and Steen was nothing more than a decent 2-way guy.

    I would agree that my 3rd line is not very physical, you are being unfair when you call them soft.

    Based on descriptions of Laprade, he played a similar defensive style to John Madden. He was an aggressive, in-your-face-all-the-time kind of checker. He's not going to hurt anybody, but he won't back down.

    Hebenton isn't going to hurt anybody either, but he sure as heck isn't going to back down. Same goes for Mahovlich.

    Ouside of Hooley Smith, you really don't have much toughness. Guerin, Balon, and Paiement are tough, but nothing overly special. The rest are average at best or below average.

    I don't see your team as soft or anything, but there sure aren't many guys to be scared of.

    Hy Buller played 9 excellent years in the AHL before he was given a chance to jump to the NHL. As was already discussed, there are many reasons to beleive he was only held back due to antisemitizem. The fact that he was able to jump and perform as one of the elite defensemen in the league right away suggests he was ready long before he was given the chance.

    Mark Tinordi was just a decent defenseman during his career. He was nothing special. He played most of his career during the 90s, and looking at the list of defensemen who also played in the 90s, Tinordi is like the 50th best defenseman.

    I'd take Buller over him every day of the week, especially considering Buller can contribute in all areas of the game.

    When you play for teams with bluelines that range from weak to pathetc, it's not tough to lead them in ice time.

    Agreed that Timonen was Nashville's best player for a stretch... but there's a reason this is the first year they've ever been out of the 1st round. He was a dwarf among midgets.

    I would agree that he was arguable Philly's best player when he came in. Just like Nashville, though, there was little competition. They were a young team that looked like they would develop into a force, but they weren't there yet. Once the team was strong, he dropped down the depth chart.

    Having said that, I do think Timonen is a good 2-way defenseman. He can handle the puck and make smart plays, and he' very responsible defensively.

    How he compares to defensemen on other teams is not really relavent. Let's put them head to head.

    Timonen is a solid, but unspectacular, offesive guy. I think that is also a fair description of Ken Randall.

    Timonen is also a reliable defensive player. I thinnk that also is a fair desciprion of Randall.

    Physically, Timonen isn't soft, but Randall is among the most physical guys of his era.

    Randall played an incredibly long career for his era. Timonen is only half done his career. Basically, what they brought to the table was pretty similar, but Randall brought it for twice as long.
     
  7. seventieslord

    seventieslord Student Of The Game

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    Timonen is 36, and he's half done his career?
     
  8. Dreakmur

    Dreakmur Registered User

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    I thought he was younger than that. I guess he's almost done a career that will not be as impressive as I thought it would eventually be.

    That doesn't change my point, however. Randall has put together a much longer career, even before you account for era difference.
     
  9. Sturminator

    Sturminator I voted for Kodos

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    Eh? Both guys peaked offensively in the 10-20 range in league points, and both guys peaked for about as long (Steen's peak twice has to be measured in PPG because he missed about 15 games in two of his three best offensive seasons). The difference in eras and strength of competition, however, is not small. Laprade's best years all came in the late 40's when the NHL was still pretty suck. Translate his scoring finishes into the 1980's NHL, and he's behind Thomas Steen.

    See my posts in the Dirt thread on Frank Foyston. His toughness has been pretty well underrated around here. You are also terribly underrating Thomas Steen's toughness and physicality. He was really quite a tough, aggressive player. This is what John Ferguson (a guy who knows something about toughness) had to say about Steen:

    So now we're up to six of the nine top-9 forwards who are a plus in toughness, and two more of them - Fredrickson and Heatley - are quite big and strong. Fredrickson, in particular, was a man child for his time - at various points described as "musclebound", "a giant", etc. Edgar Laprade would have very little chance against a guy like Fredrickson along the boards. He was one of the most physically imposing players of his era. The problem that your third line has here is simply winning the puck. Outside of Frank Boucher (who was an extremely tricky stickhandler), all of Gwinnett's top-9 forwards are either plus physical players or big and strong enough to protect the puck from soft defensive players like those that populate the Monsters' third line. It's just a bad matchup for your team.

    Yeah, except your evidence of antisemitism is empty speculation from a single source called Jews In Sports Online. That same source suggested that Cecil Hart could see through walls and crap candy canes, but you don't see me using that as an argument, now do you? Seriously, I doubt if you've won over any converts to the "Buller was really awesome but the NHL hated Jews" school of thought. What he did in the AHL is wholly meaningless to me, though maybe other GMs see it differently. I see a guy who came into the league, had one very good season, and was quickly back out of the league. I don't know that this is really an ATD player, or at least a starter. He's an old-time Drew Doughty with a longer minor league career.

    You really don't know much about Mark Tinordi, do you? It was obvious to me already when you mentioned that Hooley Smith was the only tough guy on the team. To begin with, Mark Tinordi was really tough - and was a legitimate goon (the first time I've ever used that as a compliment) in the early part of his career. Second, he was an outstanding penalty-killer. I've already posted this, but it bears repeating. Using overpass' special teams metrics, here are Tinordi's closest ATD comparables in terms of penalty killing:

    Tinordi: 663 GP // 47% PK // .89 TmPK+
    Morrow: 550 GP // 48% PK // .87 TmPK+
    Ramsey: 1070 GP // 49% PK // .88 TmPK+

    That's some very good company. Both of those guys are first unit PKers in this ATD, and not bad ones. Finally, Mark Tinordi at his peak was a solid #1 defenseman who was used extensively in defensive situations for a good Northstars/Stars team. seventies already posted his usage rates at his peak here. I will quote him:

    I don't know where Tinordi ranks during his two good years in Washington, but my guess is it's similar to the above. He was a good #1 defensive defenseman at his peak - well better than the 50th best blueliner of the 90's. He never really came around offensively, but he was always strong in his own end. You don't post career PK numbers on the same level as guys like Morrow and Ramsey unless you can play some D.

    Yeah, but the reason was not Kimmo Timonen.

    Actually, Timonen is a pretty spectacular powerplay QB - extremely similar to Dan Boyle in terms of career value. Using 10 powerplay points as an arbitrary cutoff, here are Timonen and Boyle's career powerplay points totals:

    Timonen: 38, 30, 29, 28, 28, 26, 24, 19, 16, 16, 14

    Boyle: 37, 32, 29, 27, 27, 25, 15, 14, 13, 10

    Yeah, Timonen's been that good, but nobody noticed (except the voters who put him in the all-star game four times) because he played in Nashville. He's actually a tick better than Boyle on the powerplay.

    You're trying to slip a fast one by us here. Your evidence for Randall's defensive skill is very thin. There's plenty of evidence that Randall was tough and that he could handle the puck, but all you've got on his defensive play is a couple of quotes from individual games, which tells us very little. Considering how much time Randall spent at forward throughout his career, I'm not at all sure that he really was that good defensively.

    Simply playing for a long time is meaningless.
     
  10. Sturminator

    Sturminator I voted for Kodos

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    What on earth are you getting on about? The guy's played at a very high level for a whole decade, and been selected to play in the all-star game four times in a strong competitive era, which is better than a lot of #4 defensemen in this thing. The fact that there were no all-star games in 2005 (lockout) and 2006 (Olympics) is particularly cruel to Timonen, as he was an all-star on both ends of that timeframe - making the team in 2004, 2007 and 2008 (as well as 2000, in which he couldn't play), each time selected by the NHL GMs as a reserve because the fans and writers didn't know who he was. Some consolation here is that Timonen was great in the 2006 Olympics for a Finnish team that unexpectedly took the silver, and was one of the tournament all-stars at defense alongside Nicklas Lidstrom. He was also elected the MVP of the Finnish league playoffs in 2005 during the lockout.

    You must have had high expectations for Timonen if you thought he was going to be better.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2011
  11. seventieslord

    seventieslord Student Of The Game

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    Some GMs do see Buller differently, yes. I know the antisemitism thing really isn't proven, but where there's smoke there is often fire. Thing is, if he came right in and was a 2nd team all-star, then it stands to reason he was at least close to that good in at least the 2-3 seasons prior to that as well, knowing what we know about player development curves and his age at the time.

    You know that the 36 defensemen playing regularly in the NHL weren't always the 36 best back then, not like now. In the years leading up to his NHL debut, it would be a real stretch to suggest he wasn't at least NHL caliber, considering he was a 2nd team all-star as soon as he stepped in. Conservatively, if you say he was about the 15th-best defenseman in the world leading up to then, that's still pretty good. In modern times, with a talent pool 2-3 times as strong, that is relatively as impressive as being the 30th-45th best... or a #2 defenseman. That's a real rough way of looking at it, I know.
     
  12. Dreakmur

    Dreakmur Registered User

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    All I meant was I though he might have another 9 or 10 years left in him. That would allow him to build a better career. It's basically meaningless in the ATD.

    Keep in mind that, since every team sends somebody to the game, Timonen was Nashville's representative at the All-Star game.
     
  13. Sturminator

    Sturminator I voted for Kodos

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    If you thought Timonen still had another 10 years left in the tank, it shows pretty clearly that, when you made your statement about the third pairings, you were just as ignorant of his existence in Nashville as the common NHL fan and were judging him based upon only the last few seasons. Or do you think he's going to play until he's 50?

    Nonsense. When Timonen was injured in 2000, no Nashville player replaced him and the Preds weren't represented, at all. In 2004, both Timonen and Vokoun played in the all-star game, and in 2008, both Timonen and Richards (he was in Philly by that time). 2007 is the only case where Timonen was his team's "lone representative" at the all-star game, and he was already an established star by then.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2011
  14. Dreakmur

    Dreakmur Registered User

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    It's a fact. Every team sends at least one player, and Timonen was Nashville's guy. He was their representative.

    That doesn't mean he wouldn't be an All-Star without those restrictions, but it's a distinct possibility.
     
  15. Dreakmur

    Dreakmur Registered User

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    Why does Steen get to use PPG, but not Laprade?

    Over their peaks, Steen is like 50th in league scoring, while Laprade is like 15th. Steen has 50% of 3rd place Yzerman, and Laprade has 60% of 2nd place Lindsay.

    As I already said, calling any of my 3rd liners soft is unfair. None of them are soft.

    Size is just one aspect of battling for pucks.

    I watched Tinordi play, so I'm familiar with him. He's a bigger and meaner, but slower, version of Willie Mitchell.

    Time on ice is not a good indication of how good a player is or was. It has just as much to do with the competition as it does with a players talent.

    That's right. Nashville's struggles were not Timonen's fault. That wasn't my point. The point was that Nashville, being a weak team, had little to choose from for their All-Star representative.

    If he is that good as a PP scorer, he's pretty weak at even strength. Sicce 2000, he's 24th in PPG among defensemen.

    If he was just hanging on, I would agree. Randall was still adding to his peak resume as a 37 year old.
     
  16. Dreakmur

    Dreakmur Registered User

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    It shows that I thought he joined the NHL as a 20 year old rather than a 25 year old.
     
  17. Dreakmur

    Dreakmur Registered User

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    That's basically what I've been saying. There's no proof, but there's some good evidence to suggest it.
     
  18. Sturminator

    Sturminator I voted for Kodos

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    Points per game wouldn't help Laprade, but you're welcome to use it. Fact is, Steen was a top-20 offensive player in the NHL over his three year peak. Fact is also that he missed a few games in a couple of those seasons and fell narrowly out of the top-20 scorers, though he was still top-20 in points per game.

    Again, in case you weren't reading for comprehension, Timonen was Nashville's lone all-star game representative once, and that was in 2007 after he was already an established star.

    If I remember correctly (overpass would have to help me on this - the lack of indexing at HFBoards is starting to piss me off), Timonen's percentage of even strength points in Nashville was actually about what you'd except for a two-way #1 defenseman, it's just that the Preds scored a depressingly low number of even strength points.
     
  19. Dreakmur

    Dreakmur Registered User

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    Going from 17th in Points to 12th in Points per Game doesn't help?

    Another fact is, over his 3 year peak, Steen was 34th in NHL scoring.

    18th in PPG and 34th in Points doesn't make him a top-20 scorer.

    Funny how that 2000 All-Star game counts as an All-Star game when you're arguing how good he was, but it doesn't seem to show up when you're trying to deny how bad Nashville was.

    The problem is that Timonen's offensive numbers actually get worse when he leaves Nashville and comes to Philly. Since joining the Flyers, he is 27th in ppg among defensemen.
     
  20. Sturminator

    Sturminator I voted for Kodos

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    When the only source of speculation is as ludicrously questionable as the Jews in Space website Dreak found, I'm not sure that even constitutes smoke. Did you know that the Rangers actually turned a French Canadian into a Jew as a promotional trick in the late 1920's? Yeah, they renamed Lorne Chabot "Chabotsky" to make him seem more Jewish and appeal to one of New York's large and wealthy minority populations. The following text is from a January 14, 1979 New York Times article which I obviously can't link - but searching for "New York Chabotsky" will give you the abstract.

    It's an interesting story that I'd been meaning to post, anyway. If anybody in the NHL at the time was anti-semitic, the New York Rangers seem to be the least likely candidates of all.

    Eh? That doesn't stand to reason, at all. Players have breakout seasons all the time. Looking over Buller's AHL stats, it looks very much like his breakout season was 1950-51, and that his contract was purchased by the Rangers the next season - a perfectly normal career progression for the era. I am aware that strong players were held down in the minor leagues during this era, but your combination of credulity and assumption in this case is quite extreme.
     
  21. Sturminator

    Sturminator I voted for Kodos

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    Why don't you post your special teams units, dreak?
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2011
  22. Sturminator

    Sturminator I voted for Kodos

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    Somewhere, there's a clown crying about how it's unfair to make assumptions.

    Guess what, Dreak? Here are the Nashville Preds selected to the NHL All-Star game during Timonen's career:

    1999: Sergei Krivokrasov
    2000: Kimmo Timonen
    2001: ---
    2002: ---
    2003: ---
    2004: Kimmo Timonen, Tomas Vokoun
    ---
    2007: Kimmo Timonen

    Doesn't seem to me that the NHL had any problem, whatsoever, leaving Nashville unrepresented in the all-star game.
     
  23. Dreakmur

    Dreakmur Registered User

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    You are being rediculous. There have been numerous examples given. As I have said before, there is no conclusive proof, but there is enough evidence to strongly indicate antisemitizam did impact Buller's career.

    It is an intereting story. If Buller played in 1925, it would apply. Since he played in the 1940s, it doesn't.

    It is possible that 1950-51 was his break-out season. It's not likely, but it's possible.

    If you look at the number of NHLers who passed through the AHL and moved up to the NHL, it's pretty clear Buller was definately good enough to make that jump.
     
  24. Dreakmur

    Dreakmur Registered User

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    Do you have to be such a dink when you argue? It's getting annoying....

    Looks like I may have been mistaken.

    Does anybody know what year the NHL implimented the rule that every team needs to be represented at the all-star game?
     
  25. Sturminator

    Sturminator I voted for Kodos

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    You seem to have a peculiar definition of the word "numerous", which apparently includes the singular; I can find only one statement on this subject in your profile of Buller. Do you have any other sources for this anti-semitic speculation, or is it all coming from Jews In Sports Online?

    You don't seem so convinced, yourself.
     

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