ATD2010 Bob Cole 1st round: Detroit Falcons (2) vs. Chief de Laval (7)

[VanIslander]

The Bob Cole Division Quarterfinal Round:


Detroit Falcons

coach Lester Patrick

Bert Olmstead - Syl Apps Sr. (C) - Maurice Richard
Reg Noble - Ted Kennedy (A) - Reggie Leach
Jere Lehtinen - John Madden - Frank Finnigan
Ed Sandford - Fleming Mackell - Johnny Peirson
John Ferguson, Barney Stanley

Scott Niedermayer - Lionel Hitchman (A)
Lester Patrick - Kevin Lowe
Billy Coutu - George Owen
Allan Cameron

Roy Worters
Alec Connell


vs.


Chief de Laval

coaches Mike Babcock, Herb Brooks

Kevin Stevens - Mario Lemieux (C) - Charlie Conacher
Billy Burch - Alex Delvecchio (A) - Anders Hedberg
Bob Bourne - Art Chapman - Eric Nesterenko
Don Maloney - Lynn Patrick - Murray Balfour
Wayne Merrick


Serge Savard (A) - George Boucher
Moose Vasko - Craig Hartsburg
Dunc Munro - Tomas Jonsson
Frantisek Tikal

Gump Worsley
Tom Barrasso​

Click to read more...

 

[VanIslander]

Detroit Falcons

PP1: Olmstead-Apps Sr.-Richard-Noble-Patrick
PP2: Mackell-Kennedy-Leach-Niedermayer-Owen

PK1: Finnigan-Kennedy-Hitchman-Lowe
PK2: Mackell-Madden-Niedermayer-Coutu

vs.


Chief de Laval

PP1: Stevens-Lemieux-Conacher-Delvecchio-Boucher
PP2: Burch-Lemieux-Hedberg-Jonsson-Hartsburg

PK1: Bourne-Nesterenko-Savard-Vasko
PK2: Delvecchio-Chapman-Boucher-Munro​

 

[markrander87]

I'd like to hear how his defence plans on stopping either of my top 2 lines. Neidermayer doesnt stand a chance. Also Delvecchio will be moved up to the 1st line switching places with Stevens. I have a better 1st line, 3rd line, 4th line, 1st pairing, second pairing and goaltending. But somehow im in last place.

I'd also have the better PP1 and two PK Units but I guess that doesn't matter

 

[Leafs Forever]

I'd like to hear how his defence plans on stopping either of my top 2 lines. Neidermayer doesnt stand a chance. Also Delvecchio will be moved up to the 1st line switching places with Stevens. I have a better 1st line, 3rd line, 4th line, 1st pairing, second pairing and goaltending. But somehow im in last place.

The bold, I think rather debtable, and would need convincing of to completely buy.

 

[hungryhungryhippy]

Detroit Falcons are clearly the more dominant team in this series, they're one of the best teams in the entire league.

 

[markrander87]

The bold, I think rather debtable, and would need convincing of to completely buy.

Already admitting I have the better 1st line and 1st pairing. Which is by far most important. If you think Roy Worters is a better goalie than Gump Worsley, you need to take up a different hobby. Art
chapman is by far the best player on either of those 3rd lines, with Bourne being a top 3, Kevin Lowe was a product of the Oilers dynasty without the Oilers we wouldnt be talking about Kevin LOwe. Lynn Patrick best player by far on either fourth line, lead the league in goals

 

[seventieslord]

as for markrander's claims:

I can agree that his 1st line is better if he puts Delvecchio up there. (apps/richard cancels out Lemieux/Conacher, Delvecchio wins the rubbermatch vs. Olmstead) I think Laval's 3rd line is also better. no winger jumps out as particularly good or bad but the advantage at center, thanks to Chapman's offense, is huge.

Both players on Laval's first pairing are better than both on Detroit's. Detroit has a minor advantage on the 2nd pairing. And the 3rd pairings feature three MLD players, I give Laval a slight edge because they have the best player on either pairing, Tomas Jonsson.

Laval's goaltending is definitely not better (it's about equal, though, now that it is the playoffs). And their 4th line is close but not quite as good (Peirson over Balfour wins it, the rest is about a wash).

 

[hungryhungryhippy]

I'd like to hear how his defence plans on stopping either of my top 2 lines. Neidermayer doesnt stand a chance. Also Delvecchio will be moved up to the 1st line switching places with Stevens. I have a better 1st line, 3rd line, 4th line, 1st pairing, second pairing and goaltending. But somehow im in last place.

I'd also have the better PP1 and two PK Units but I guess that doesn't matter

Niedermayer isn't the only guy trying to stop them though, it's a team effort. Everything from the goalie, to the defensmen (there are 2 of them on each pairing, btw), to the forwards, to the coaching, to the team system matters.

If you move Delvecchio to the first line, you have a marginally better 1st line than Olmstead - Apps - Richard, but a pretty weak second line that won't even match the production of a second line with guys like Ted Kennedy and Reg Noble.

I like the Falcons checking line more as well.

 

[Stoneberg]

I could definitely be sold either way on this series. I had Laval ranked higher than 7th. For me, right now, Laval has the slight but noticeable advantage on D, and goaltending is pretty close.

Loading up the top line gives Laval the slight advantage over another absolutely elite first line, as a result there is no contest on the second line. I prefer Laval's checking line, and am calling the fourth lines a wash as well at this point (need to hear some more on them).

Definitely looking forward to some debate because I have no idea who I'm voting for at this point.

 

[seventieslord]

as a result there is no contest on the second line.

And unfortunately for Laval, that could be key right there.

This team is, IMO, not up to EB's usual standards, and unlike some 2v7 matchups it's not such a slam dunk where you can say they have the advantage at every position.

But, that massive 2nd line deficit could bury Laval right there.

 

[Leafs Forever]

Already admitting I have the better 1st line and 1st pairing. Which is by far most important. If you think Roy Worters is a better goalie than Gump Worsley, you need to take up a different hobby. Art
chapman is by far the best player on either of those 3rd lines, with Bourne being a top 3, Kevin Lowe was a product of the Oilers dynasty without the Oilers we wouldnt be talking about Kevin LOwe. Lynn Patrick best player by far on either fourth line, lead the league in goals

-Your 1st line is better because you stacked it with Delveccio. As a result however, your second line becomes one of the worst in the draft however. The gap between your new second line and the Falcon's second line may actually be larger than the first line gap.

-How about you prove the goalie arguement instead of acting like it's not debtable, which it is.

-If he is the best player, I'm not sure it's by far. Chapman was a good defensive player, how good I don't know. It's his two-ways skills that make him a great thirdliner, but he may be worse defensively than any of EB's three. But, I really like how EB's thirdline was constructed, and it may well be better on both wings, I think.

-Considering Lowe was a deffensive style D-man, I don't see him as a product of an Oiler's dynasty. Plus I really like Lester Patrick.

-Not sure that Patrick is better than Mackell, particularly with Patrick not playing in his position where all his big accomplishments come from. Certainly not a by-far advantage, I think.

 

[markrander87]

as for markrander's claims:

I can agree that his 1st line is better if he puts Delvecchio up there. (apps/richard cancels out Lemieux/Conacher, Delvecchio wins the rubbermatch vs. Olmstead) I think Laval's 3rd line is also better. no winger jumps out as particularly good or bad but the advantage at center, thanks to Chapman's offense, is huge.

Both players on Laval's first pairing are better than both on Detroit's. Detroit has a minor advantage on the 2nd pairing. And the 3rd pairings feature three MLD players, I give Laval a slight edge because they have the best player on either pairing, Tomas Jonsson.

Laval's goaltending is definitely not better (it's about equal, though, now that it is the playoffs). And their 4th line is close but not quite as good (Peirson over Balfour wins it, the rest is about a wash).

THIS.

Rankings

1st Line - Laval
2nd Line- Detroit
3rd line-Laval
4th line- Even

Defense

1 Pairing - Laval
2nd pairing-Detroit
3rd pairing- Laval

Goaltending- Laval

Gump Worsley Playoff record 40-26 4 cups

Roy Worters playoff record 3-6-2 0 cups




My first line will see 23 minutes a game
2nd line 12 minutes a game
3rd line 18 minutes a game
4th line 7 minutes a game

I'd like to know how the gap between our two 2nd lines is any bigger than the gap between our top defensive pairings. I have the top 2 defensman in the series (As mentioned above by seventies). Not to mention the best forward as well.

 

[markrander87]

Detroit Falcons

PP1: Olmstead-Apps Sr.-Richard-Noble-Patrick
PP2: Mackell-Kennedy-Leach-Niedermayer-Owen

PK1: Finnigan-Kennedy-Hitchman-Lowe
PK2: Mackell-Madden-Niedermayer-Coutu

vs.


Chief de Laval

PP1: Stevens-Lemieux-Conacher-Delvecchio-Boucher
PP2: Burch-Lemieux-Hedberg-Jonsson-Hartsburg

PK1: Bourne-Nesterenko-Savard-Vasko
PK2: Delvecchio-Chapman-Boucher-Munro​

Also Id like to point out I have the better PP1, PK1, and PK2 he has the better PP2

My PP1 defenseman >>>>than Noble-Patrick
Hitchman-Lowe doesnt even compare to Savard-Vasko on the PK1 units

 

[markrander87]

How many cups did Richard lead Montreal to the cup??

In all of Richards Cups he never once led his team in scoring

Lemieux led the penguins (and the playoffs) by a large margin both times his team won the cup.

Lemieux will be the game breaker in this series.

 

[seventieslord]

Are you implying that the player many feel is the best clutch scorer of all-time was really not that clutch?

You'll need to put together something stronger than that.

 

[markrander87]

Bert Olmstead playoff record 115 games played 58 points

Bob Bourne playoff record 139 games played, 96 points

I think its safe to say Bob Bourne my 3d line LW has a proven better playoff record than ANY OF HIS LW's!!!!!

 

[markrander87]

Are you implying that the player many feel is the best clutch scorer of all-time was really not that clutch?

You'll need to put together something stronger than that.

And Lemieux isnt clutch??? Why do I have to prove everything, is it just automatically assumed he wins because he finshed ahead in the regular season standings?? and now I have to prove why my team matches up better against his team...

 

[jarek]

How many cups did Richard lead Montreal to the cup??

In all of Richards Cups he never once led his team in scoring

Lemieux led the penguins (and the playoffs) by a large margin both times his team won the cup.

Lemieux will be the game breaker in this series.

Just because Richard never led his team in scoring in the playoffs, does not mean he wasn't a critical factor, because he usually was. He's one of the greatest playoff performers ever.

Either way, this is going to be one of the highest scoring series in all of ATD history.

 

[jarek]

Bert Olmstead playoff record 115 games played 58 points

Bob Bourne playoff record 139 games played, 96 points

I think its safe to say Bob Bourne my 3d line LW has a proven better playoff record than ANY OF HIS LW's!!!!!

OK, and Olmstead is better in everything else, and it's not even close. Olmstead isn't there to score, he's there to provide everything else, and he's the best there is at that without looking at elite talent.

And Lemieux isnt clutch??? Why do I have to prove everything, is it just automatically assumed he wins because he finshed ahead in the regular season standings?? and now I have to prove why my team matches up better against his team...

You have to prove that because you're the underdog here.

 

[seventieslord]

And Lemieux isnt clutch??? .

He sure is. But he doesn't have the clutch reputation that Richard has.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Just because Richard never led his team in scoring in the playoffs, does not mean he wasn't a critical factor, because he usually was. He's one of the greatest playoff performers ever.

He led the Canadiens in playoff scoring in 1958 (when they won the Cup) with 11 goals and 15 points in 10 games.

He also led his team in playoff scoring in the following non-Cup years: 1945 (tied), 1947, 1951.

 

[VanIslander]

Mario Lemieux is not 'clutch' per se because the metaphor of shifting gears to come through when most needed doesn't apply to a hockey god like him. Mario, Gretz, Orr are simply stuck in overdrive. Those who 'choke' (another part of the mechanical analogy) are the one's who aren't clutch (they pop the clutch, so to speak). Claude Lemieux is clutch.

 

[seventieslord]

Mario Lemieux is not 'clutch' per se because the metaphor of shifting gears to come through when most needed doesn't apply to a hockey god like him. Mario, Gretz, Orr are simply stuck in overdrive. Those who 'choke' (another part of the mechanical analogy) are the one's who aren't clutch (they pop the clutch, so to speak). Claude Lemieux is clutch.

This is true.

 

[markrander87]

What proof does somebody need to no that Mario Lemieux is a would have a bigger influence in a series than Maurice Richard

 

[Leafs Forever]

This ATD is nothing but a populaity contest what a joke

Why? Because people aren't going to fully buy everything you say right off the bat without first seeing more evidence?

The only person who has made a final call on the series, it seems, was hhh. People are willing and listening to good arguements, myself included.

What proof does somebody need to no that Mario Lemieux is a would have a bigger influence in a series than Maurice Richard

Did anyone say that wasn't the case?