ATD #9 René Lecavalier Quarterfinal: #2 Springfield Isotopes vs. #7 Philadelphia Flye

[FissionFire]

The Springfield Isotopes
Coach: Mike Keenan
Captain: Sylvio Mantha
Assistant Captains: Bill Barber, Walt Tkaczuk

#77 Bill Barber (a) - #7 Norm Ullman - #9 Andy Bathgate
#3 Baldy Northcott - #81 Bobby Smith - #8 Teemu Selanne
#4 Hec Kilrea - #18 Walt Tkaczuk (a) - #15 John MacLean
#88 Curt Fraser - #71 Pit Martin - #88 Jim Pappin
#21 Camille Henry - #25 John Ogrodnick

#22 Brad Park - #2 Sylvio Mantha (c)
#26 Dave Burrows - #1 Hod Stuart
#33 Zdeno Chara - #10 Gilles Marotte
#44 Fredrik Olausson

#29 Ken Dryden
#41 Sean Burke

PP 1st unit:
Barber - Ullman - Bathgate
Stuart - Park

PP 2nd unit:
MacLean - Smith - Selanne
Mantha - Chara

PK 1st unit:
Barber - Tkaczuk
Chara - Mantha

PK 2nd unit:
Northcott - Ullman
Park - Burrows



Philadelphia Flyers
Coach - Don Cherry

Kevin Stevens - Joe Nieuwendyk - Dale Hawerchuk
Illya Kovalchuk - Doug Gilmour "A"- Theo Fleury
Ryan Smyth - Michael Peca - Mike Keane
Sergei Brylin - Dave Poulin "A"- Randy McKay
Donald Brashear, Danny Briere


Eddie Shore "C" - Eddie Gerard
Chris Pronger - Ulf Samulesson
Mattias Norstrom - Kimmo Timmonen
"Moose" Dupont

Bernie Parent
Pelle Lindebergh

PP units
Kovalchuk - Nieuwendyk - Hawerchuk
Shore - Gerard

Stevens - Gilmour - Fleury
Timonen - Pronger

PK Units
Peca & Keane, Poulin & Fleury, Gilmour & Nieuwendyk We'll primarily use our top 4 defenseman to kill penalties, but all out defenseman are capable. Bernie Parent is the ultimate penalty killer.​

Click to read more...

 

[John Flyers Fan]

est. 1967

Coach - Don Cherry

Kevin Stevens - Joe Nieuwendyk - Dale Hawerchuk
Illya Kovalchuk - Doug Gilmour "A"- Theo Fleury
Ryan Smyth - Michael Peca - Mike Keane
Sergei Brylin - Dave Poulin "A"- Randy McKay

Donald Brashear, Danny Briere


Eddie Shore "C" - Eddie Gerard
Chris Pronger - Ulf Samulesson
Mattias Norstrom - Kimmo Timmonen

"Moose" Dupont

Bernie Parent
Pelle Lindebergh​

PP units

Kovalchuk - Nieuwendyk - Hawerchuk
Shore - Gerard

Stevens - Gilmour - Fleury
Timonen - Pronger

PK Units

Peca & Keane, Poulin & Fleury, Gilmour & Nieuwendyk We'll primarily use our top 4 defenseman to kill penalties, but all out defenseman are capable. Bernie Parent is the ultimate penalty killer.

 

[Sturminator]

The Springfield Isotopes
Home Ice: Duff Stadium
Coach: Mike Keenan
Captain: Sylvio Mantha
Assistant Captains: Bill Barber, Walt Tkaczuk

#77 Bill Barber (a) - #7 Norm Ullman - #9 Andy Bathgate
#3 Baldy Northcott - #81 Bobby Smith - #8 Teemu Selanne
#4 Hec Kilrea - #18 Walt Tkaczuk (a) - #15 John MacLean
#88 Curt Fraser - #71 Pit Martin - #88 Jim Pappin
#21 Camille Henry - #25 John Ogrodnick

#22 Brad Park - #2 Sylvio Mantha (c)
#26 Dave Burrows - #1 Hod Stuart
#33 Zdeno Chara - #10 Gilles Marotte
#44 Fredrik Olausson

#29 Ken Dryden
#41 Sean Burke

PP 1st unit:

Barber - Ullman - Bathgate
Stuart - Park

PP 2nd unit:

MacLean - Smith - Selanne
Mantha - Chara

PK 1st unit:

Barber - Tkaczuk
Chara - Mantha

PK 2nd unit:

Northcott - Ullman
Park - Burrows
​

*note that against the quick and smallish Flyers' 2nd line, Dave Burrows will play on the 2nd pairing with Stuart while Zdeno Chara shifts down to the 3rd pairing*

 

[Sturminator]

I'll begin by saying that I'm somewhat shocked that the Flyers got a 7 seed and never expected this out of a first round matchup.

My initial impression is that Philadelphia's advantage rests on the shoulders of Shore and Pronger, though it is a smaller advantage that it would be against most teams, as Park/Mantha is a strong top-2. Against a team that can be intimidated by physical play, this might prove decisive, but the teams are about equal in terms of physicality and toughness, so I don't see this playing out in the Flyers' favor, especially considering the rather extreme discipline issue with a team led by Shore and Pronger with a top 4 rounded out by Ulf Samuelsson, captained by Shore and coached by Don Cherry. The presence of accomplished agitators like Barber, Pappin and Fraser may pose problems for Philadelphia, especially as their two best defensemen are the guys most likely to be spending a lot of time in the penalty box, which seriously undercuts the effectiveness of the PK.

Gilmour/Nieuwendyk vs. Ullman/Smith is basically a saw-off. All four were terrific playoff performers. Norm Ullman is the best overall player of the bunch, but Smith is the worst. Down the middle on the scoringlines, the teams are basically even.

As great as Bernie Parent's two year Cup run was, the rest of his playoff career is relatively nondescript. Ken Dryden is one of the few goalies in history who actually holds a clear advantage over Parent in terms of playoff performances.

Stuart vs. Gerard (although they occupy different roster spots) is, at best, an even match for Philly. Hockey pundits at the time seem to have considered Stuart unambiguously the better player, but questions about era and strength of competition even things out a bit. Samuelsson/Norstrom/Timmonen don't compare well to Chara/Burrows/Marotte.

Springfield's rather extreme advantage on the wings shouldn't require much analysis, though it should be pointed out that the Isotopes' scoring advantage runs all the way down to the 4th line, where Jim Pappin is one of the most dangerous 4th line playoff scorers in the draft, and will be supported by old linemate Pit Martin and a very strong 2-way Chara/Marotte 3rd pairing. Overall, Springfield holds a large advantage at forward (over all four lines) in terms of scoring ability and sacrifices nothing in defensive play or toughness.

I get the impression that neither team will seek to match lines (Springfield certainly won't), which means that what you see is what you get in terms of matchups.

 

[Sturminator]

I'll add that I may be wrong about Philadelphia's tactics vis-a-vis line matching. Stevens - Nieuwendyk - Hawerchuk do not have the gear in terms of skating or defensive play to hang with Barber - Ullman - Bathgate, so JFF may choose to match a bottom line against Springfield's top unit.

The question then becomes what to make of the line matching. Both of Philly's bottom lines are defensively strong at center and on the right wing, but the left wings are weak defensively, which is a problem against a line on which the offense runs through Andy Bathgate at right wing. Be it Stevens, Kovalchuk, Smyth or Brylin, Bathgate is likely to stomp a mudhole through whomever is assigned to check him.

 

[John Flyers Fan]

Shore is far and away the best player on the ice in the series. Park was a very nice player, but isn't in Shore's class.

"Hod" Stuart better than Gerard ??? .... Gerard was the captain and arguably the best player on an Ottawa team that won 3 Cups in 4 seasons. The one year Ottawa didn't win the cup Gerard did, when due to injury the Toronto St. Pats were allowed to add "any defenseman in eastern Canada". Gerard quickly got the call and dominated game 4 to the extent that the deal was cancelled. No matter that game turned the tide in the series.

Burrows over Ulf Samuulsson ??? ... Both were defensive defenseman ... Ulf with a clear size and nastiness advantage. Also a big part of winning teams ... 2 Stanley Cups and over 100 more playoff games than Burrows

I have clear cut edges at the #1, 2, 3 and 4 defensive positions.

My 7 man defense corps has won 11 Stanley Cups, to your 4, with only Mantha and Stuart sipping from Lord Stanley's Cup on your side.

Overall I have 10 players that have won multiple Stanley Cups to your 4.


Bathgate is going to torch any of my LW's ??? I'd love to know when Brylin and Smyth became bad defensive players .... Bathgate will have enough to worry about with Shore, Gerard and Pronger ... my LW's will be the least of his concerns.




I'll get to the forwards in a bit.

 

[vancityluongo]

I just got to say: how the hell can a team in a 32 team draft get a 7th seed with Shore-Pronger-Gerard as their top-3 defensemen? And it's not like JFF's forwards are weak either, although maybe not the best group in the draft, but by no means terrible IMO. Oh yeah, he has Bernie Parent, a top-10 goalie ever in net.

Usually I would say that's it probably just shows how strong that division is, but I really think this is crazy. I could definitely see an "upset" here, without the slightest on the very strong team you've both put together Sturm and Ricky. In fact, I think I had both of you top-3 in your division.

 

[MXD]

Abstract : Low scoring affair between a team with a resolutely average scoring potential, good defense and extremely solid netminder versus a team with a low scoring potential, mean defense, and an solid netminder.

The problem I had with the Flyers was that they wouldn't score many goals against the Lecavalier's goalies, and they're now stuck playing against a guy that was a brickwall come playoff time... But Parent can be a brickwall as well.

 

[FissionFire]

I'm not sure calling Dryden a brick wall is entirely accurate. In his book he even said that his backup would have won those Cups behind that team. Was it really Dryden or the team in front of him that was the brick wall? I really think of Dryden alot like Chris Osgood in the playoffs this season. The team in front of him is so spectacular and dominates teams so well and all he has to do is make a couple tough saves ever game to win and post great numbers. I really think Dryden is vulnerable to a team that can put a ton of shots on him and create lots of offense. The Flyers may not be the team that can do that but I think if the Isotopes advance if could hurt him down the road.

 

[God Bless Canada]

The first of three really tough series to call.

JFF, I think you need to move Hawerchuk to centre. His best days were at centre. He played sparingly at RW, and never for an extended period. If you're talking about Mario or Gretzky or Morenz as the reason to move him to RW, that's one thing. Joe Nieuwendyk? No. And Nieuwendyk is not a No. 1 centre in this format.

You do have some guys who had a knack for coming up big. Nieuwendyk, Gilmour and Fleury were awesome in the playoffs. which Kovalchuk will show up? The guy who scored a couple big goals against Canada on Sunday? Or the guy who was a non-factor for Atlanta in last year's playoffs? Over the course of a best-of-seven, when teams get to make game-by-game adjustments, more inclined to think the latter until Kovalchuk gives me reason to think otherwise.

JFF, it's not that Brylin and Smyth are poor defensively. They're good defensively. I'm just inclined to think Smyth should be a 2nd or 3rd grinding scoring line forward/ace in front of the net, instead of a guy who's going to be matched up against the opposition's stars. (A role you're asking from him playing him with Peca and Keane). Smyth and Brylin are two guys who could definitely be exploited by the always underrated Bathgate, one of the best offensive players ever.

Barber-Ullman-Bathgate is likely one of the most dangerous top lines in the draft. Bathgate's an offensive force. Ullman is an excellent two-way forward and an excellent player in the face-off circle. Barber's offensive acumen is well documented.

Springfield's second line could be scary. If Selanne doesn't disappear in the playoffs. Bobby Smith was a very, very good post-season player, and Baldy Northcott is underrated.

I like the centres on Philly's bottom two lines. Not sure about the wingers. Already talked about Smyth. Keane is okay. McKay and Brylin should be in the MLD. Especially McKay.

Donald Brashear should never, ever be picked in the ATD. I understand you want a toughie for your team. But Brash? No sure about his attitude as a 13th forward.

Both teams have excellent defences. Philly might have a slight edge in personnel - Shore over Park, Pronger over Mantha, I had Gerard and Stuart as virtual equals. I'm not a Samuelsson fan - I wouldn't brake if I saw him cross the street. But no doubt that he was among the elite defensive defencemen in the world for much of his career. An agitator and a turtle, but very tough to play against. A very different approach from the steady, calm, reserved play of Dave Burrows.

If there is one weakness to be exploited on either blue-line, it would be Timonen. I think he's an MLD defenceman. Philly would be wise to limit him to 8-10 minutes per game, mostly on second PP unit duty.

As much as I like Parent, the edge in net is to Dryden. Playing behind a team that won't surrender a lot of shots.

 

[nik jr]

i was really surprised that philadelphia was 7th.

springfield has an advantage in net, philadelphia on blueline, overall the defenses are probably about equal, maybe philadelphia with the edge, but i don't know b/c the number of penalties philadelphia will take.
springfield has better offense, primarily bathgate. selanne has not been a strong playoff performer.

springfield is a slightly better team, imo. philadelphia has the better D corps, but it's prone to penalties. special teams might be the key, since philadelphia should be very strong defensively at ES, and springfield isn't an overpowering offensive team.

I'm not sure calling Dryden a brick wall is entirely accurate. In his book he even said that his backup would have won those Cups behind that team. Was it really Dryden or the team in front of him that was the brick wall? I really think of Dryden alot like Chris Osgood in the playoffs this season. The team in front of him is so spectacular and dominates teams so well and all he has to do is make a couple tough saves ever game to win and post great numbers. I really think Dryden is vulnerable to a team that can put a ton of shots on him and create lots of offense. The Flyers may not be the team that can do that but I think if the Isotopes advance if could hurt him down the road.

definitely disagree with that.

in '71, without dryden, montreal's D was average (6th best of 14 teams). in the playoffs he faced and beat the 2 best teams, defending champion boston, then the greatest offense in NHL history, and the blackhawks.

'72: lost to the finalist NYR, who had a better record that season.

in '73, montreal had the lowest GA. when dryden sat out in '74, montreal's GA increased by 56 to the 7th best.
montreal upset in 2nd round.

when dryden retired, the great habs dynasty was over, even though they had strong regular seasons.

'80: 107 points, lost to 88 point minnesota.
'81: 103 points, swept by sub-.500 oilers.
'82: 109 points, lost to 82 point nordiques.
'83: 98 points, swept by 89 point buffalo.

 

[Sturminator]

A question about Selanne: why should he disappear in the playoffs skating on a line with playoff stud Bobby Smith and Baldy Northcott, who's got a retro Conn-Smythe? Selanne didn't disappear in the playoffs. During his prime (Winnipeg and early Ducks years - it's only three seasons), he put up 13-10-23 in 24 games and led his teams in goal scoring all three years. This on bad, one-line teams.

I shouldn't have to defend Selanne's record in San Jose and Colorado, as I assume most of you know it. His knees had deserted him at that point in his career and he was not the same player. Those years also coincide with his poorest regular season performances. Selanne also had his right thumb broken by a game two Chris Pronger slash in the first season in San Jose.

Teemu Selanne's playoff record is what it is - the product of extremely limited opportunities, and, until the end of his career, bad timing and luck with teams. The guy is not a choker and is playing on a line with a couple of proven playoff performers.

 

[God Bless Canada]

A question about Selanne: why should he disappear in the playoffs skating on a line with playoff stud Bobby Smith and Baldy Northcott, who's got a retro Conn-Smythe? Selanne didn't disappear in the playoffs. During his prime (Winnipeg and early Ducks years - it's only three seasons), he put up 13-10-23 in 24 games and led his teams in goal scoring all three years. This on bad, one-line teams.

I shouldn't have to defend Selanne's record in San Jose and Colorado, as I assume most of you know it. His knees had deserted him at that point in his career and he was not the same player. Those years also coincide with his poorest regular season performances. Selanne also had his right thumb broken by a game two Chris Pronger slash in the first season in San Jose.

Teemu Selanne's playoff record is what it is - the product of extremely limited opportunities, and, until the end of his career, bad timing and luck with teams. The guy is not a choker and is playing on a line with a couple of proven playoff performers.

I watched him in that first playoff in Winnipeg. Don't let the stats fool you; outside of a big night in Game 3, when he had a hat trick, he wasn't the overwhelming offensive force that he was in the regular season.

23 points in 24 games, for a player with his skill level, isn't that impressive. He should be over a point-per-game in the playoffs. And I think it was actually 20 in 21 games for 1993 to 1999. (Stats aren't bad after 1999, but he wasn't as good in 1999-2000 or 2000-01). Good, but not great, and not what a player with his ability should have in the playoffs.

Even in his comeback years with Anaheim, his playoff numbers weren't overwhelming. He got his ring, which was great, but a guy with back-to-back 40-goal/90-point seasons should be able to muster more than 11 goals and 29 points in 37 games. That's about a 25-goal/65-point pace for an 82-game season.

Bottom line: when did his production ever increase from regular season to the playoffs?

Bobby Smith should be a good linemate for Teemu. Both guys are puck carriers, but both are pretty good at knowing their respective roles in the offensive zone. Smith gives that line a good physical dimension, too.

I don't think choker is a very good word to describe Selanne. Fader might be more appropriate.

 

[Sturminator]

Shore is far and away the best player on the ice in the series.

Well, he should be considering where you picked him. I don't really see what that proves or where I compared Shore to Park. Among defensemen, I've got Brad Park somewhere in the 8-11 range, all time, with Robinson, Fetisov and Chelios. Shore, I've got third. So we agree: Shore was better.

"Hod" Stuart better than Gerard ??? .... Gerard was the captain and arguably the best player on an Ottawa team that won 3 Cups in 4 seasons. The one year Ottawa didn't win the cup Gerard did, when due to injury the Toronto St. Pats were allowed to add "any defenseman in eastern Canada". Gerard quickly got the call and dominated game 4 to the extent that the deal was cancelled. No matter that game turned the tide in the series.

And Hod Stuart didn't win any Cups with the Silver Seven? If your argument is that Gerard is better because his team won three Cups, it's not going anywhere. The problem we've got here is that there aren't any kind of all-star voting records or any real objective indices to go by. What we do have is a lot of subjective statements as late as the 20's and 30's that place Hod Stuart as the gold standard against which later defensemen are compared.

- Eddie Shore in his prime was compared by sportswriters to Hod Stuart. (maybe HO can dig up the reference for me here?)

- a panel of experts at MacLeans placed Stuart on the all-time team (with Cleghorn and without Gerard) in 1925 and both Lester Patrick and Harry Scott called him the best defenseman to ever play. The reference and dialogue can be found here, in the 1950 voting section.

- often forgotten about Stuart is just how big the guy was. Both of the Stuart boys were cornfed and stood over six feet tall, which was enormous for that time, and Hod was well known for his crushing checks. Eddie Gerard is listed at 5'9" 170 by the most reliable sources I've found, which makes him roughly average for that era, and was known as a player who didn't really initiate contact.

Again, I think Gerard is a very fine defenseman and I'm willing to accept that they are roughly equal. The idea that Gerard is clearly better that Stuart flies in the face of basically all of the evidence we've got from the era, however.

Burrows over Ulf Samuulsson ??? ... Both were defensive defenseman ... Ulf with a clear size and nastiness advantage. Also a big part of winning teams ... 2 Stanley Cups and over 100 more playoff games than Burrows

John, I don't know how old you are or if you had a chance to see Dave Burrows play, but he was an excellent defensive defenseman...with no hands. If he'd had Bill White's hands, he quite likely would have been...Bill White. Burrows was big and strong (though not a big hitter), a terrific skater and a great positional player. He played in three all-star games while toiling for awful Penguins teams. Ulf Samuelsson never so much as played in an all-star game. I don't honestly consider Ulf a legitimate 2nd pairing ATD defenseman.

Furthermore, Ulf's skating is a liability as he'll be facing a lot of Teemu Selanne. Is Ulf the guy you want trying to stop Selanne in open ice? Pronger's a great second pairing defenseman, but he likes to take chances up ice, and can only cover his half of the ice, at any rate. Samuelsson vs. Selanne, when it occurs, is an ugly matchup for the Flyers.

Overall I have 10 players that have won multiple Stanley Cups to your 4.

I never thought of you as a Cup counter, John.

Bathgate is going to torch any of my LW's ??? I'd love to know when Brylin and Smyth became bad defensive players .... Bathgate will have enough to worry about with Shore, Gerard and Pronger ... my LW's will be the least of his concerns.

Smyth is a responsible 2-way player...for a guy who's not really meant for a shutdown role. But against Andy Bathgate?!

Sergei Brylin is a good "real life" shutdown winger, but I don't actually think he's ATD worthy, nevermind capable of effectively checking one of the most creative offensive players of all-time. Andy Bathgate won't be facing a credible backcheck no matter the matchup (neither will Selanne, for that matter), which means he'll be able to attack the zone with speed a lot, and his linemates are great skaters, as well. You know well what a fantastic counterattacker Bill Barber was (he's one of the all-time shorthanded goals leaders), and Norm Ullman shouldn't need any more praise.

As strong as the Flyers are defensively, there is a real disconnect in defending the Springfield attack in transition, especially as Philly's two best defensive defensemen are also the defensemen who will be taking the most chances up ice.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

- Eddie Shore in his prime was compared by sportswriters to Hod Stuart. (maybe HO can dig up the reference for me here?)

I dug this quote up a few days ago for the HOH Top 100 thread:

Comparing him [Shore] to the old-timers is a bit more difficult. Among the older players, fans and writers, the name of the late Hod Stuart immediately conjures up memories of that great star. He was a man of tremendous strength, a great skater, super stickhandler, a six-footer who weighed close to the 200-mark.

Important note: this article was from 1933. This was probably Shore's early prime; he won three Hart trophies after the article was published.

 

[Sturminator]

23 points in 24 games, for a player with his skill level, isn't that impressive. He should be over a point-per-game in the playoffs. And I think it was actually 20 in 21 games for 1993 to 1999. (Stats aren't bad after 1999, but he wasn't as good in 1999-2000 or 2000-01). Good, but not great, and not what a player with his ability should have in the playoffs.

Top forwards on one-line teams almost always suffer this effect in the playoffs, as they become the sole focal point of the other team's defensive scheme. It's really nothing new. I would hesitate to make Selanne the centerpiece of an ATD 1st line (though by talent, he is clearly worthy), but playing behind Barber - Ullman - Bathgate against second pairing defenses, second unit penalty kills and second tier checking wingers, he'll have a lot more room on the ice than he had in real life. Opposing teams can't scheme to shut down Selanne as they did during his career without allowing the first line to run wild.

Teemu vs. Ulf?! Checked by Kovalchuk, Stevens or Smyth?! Unless Chris Pronger cuts way back on his offensive rushes (which has its own negative consequences), Selanne is looking at a lot of open ice when he gets the puck on his stick. By talent, Selanne is slumming it on a second line, but I think that is the right way to use him in an ATD. If he can't succeed in the playoffs against secondary defensive units on a line with proven playoff performers (and strong puckwinners) and Hod Stuart pushing the puck in transition, then I guess he can't succeed. We shall see.

 

[John Flyers Fan]

Teemu vs. Ulf?! Checked by Kovalchuk, Stevens or Smyth?! Unless Chris Pronger cuts way back on his offensive rushes (which has its own negative consequences), Selanne is looking at a lot of open ice when he gets the puck on his stick. By talent, Selanne is slumming it on a second line, but I think that is the right way to use him in an ATD. If he can't succeed in the playoffs against secondary defensive units on a line with proven playoff performers (and strong puckwinners) and Hod Stuart pushing the puck in transition, then I guess he can't succeed. We shall see.

Pronger has never been a great puck rusher. Tremendous outlet passer, and very good once in the offensive zone, but nobody has ever confused Pronger with Leetch, Coffey or Neidermayer bringing the puck up the ice.

And if I choose to match 2nd line against 2nd line Selanne will have just as much if not more trouble trying to defensd Kovalchuk. Both will get their chances, if that's how the match-up goes.

Kovalchuk is every bit the game breaker that Selanne is, and has better linemates to play with and get him the puck.

 

[shawnmullin]

I always thought Pronger carried the puck pretty well when watching him intently on the Oilers. He's not going to go coast to coast, but he moves the puck up the ice well for the dump in.

 

[nik jr]

I dug this quote up a few days ago for the HOH Top 100 thread:



Important note: this article was from 1933. This was probably Shore's early prime; he won three Hart trophies after the article was published.

that would have been useful in ATD 8.

i had to read 15 pages of a canadian academic paper on masculinity, violence and hockey that was based on 1907 newspaper reports of some games that featured hod stuart. the information was sort of vague, as expected from 1907 reports.

interesting stuff, though.

 

[Sturminator]

Kovalchuk is every bit the game breaker that Selanne is...

John, that's like saying Crosby is as good as Elmer Lach. Don't you think Ilya has a bit more to prove before you compare him to a guy who's arguably a top-15 goalscorer of all-time? Also, I'm surprised to see Ilya on the halfboards of your powerplay. He has played the point for years and gets a lot of his goals from there on slapshots. I don't think having him on the halfboards is the best way to use him.

 

[Sturminator]

I don't think choker is a very good word to describe Selanne. Fader might be more appropriate.

I've done a bit of work on this. I think it's generally accepted that there are three "periods" (sounds like we're analyzing a painter) of Selanne's playoff career:

1. playing on bad teams (Winnipeg and early Anaheim years)
2. playing hurt (San Jose and Colorado)
3. playing old (later Anaheim years)

The years he was hurt I don't much care about. Skating is a huge part of Selanne's game; anyone who knocks him for underperforming on ruined knees is missing the point. In spite of bizarre criticism of his record, Selanne's playoff performances in the last few seasons have been commendable.

05-06 (35 years old): 6-8-14 in 16 games - 1st in team scoring, 2nd in goals
06-07 (36 years old): 5-10-15 in 21 games - 2nd in team scoring, 5th in goals

Is this the record of a playoff fader? I think it's pretty good for a guy who was close to retiring before he signed with the Ducks in 2005.

So now what we have left is Selanne's prime playoff years. Here are his scoring lines:

92-93: 4-2-6 in 6 games
96-97: 7-3-10 in 11 games
98-99: 2-2-4 in 4 games
*led or tied for the team lead in goals all three years*

Both Selanne and Kariya were terrific in 96-97. They scored 7 goals each on a team that only put up 24 goals in eleven playoff games. Those Ducks ran into the eventual Cup champion Red Wings in the second round and got steamrolled 4-0. Boo-hoo.

Selanne's scoring record in the other ten games (this is really a small sample size) is 6-4-10 in 10 games. GBC criticized Selanne's rookie year performance in Winnipeg by stating that three of the goals came in one game. Uh-huh. Selanne was almost solely responsible for one of the two playoff games his team won that season. And we should knock him for that?! There is a point to be made here about teams that get knocked out in the first round: very rarely do their offensive stars put up impressive numbers. Here are some stats for you:

83-94 (only the prime years) Steve Yzerman's scoring record in years his team got eliminated in the 1st round: 19-21-40 in 33 games. -- Considering the era, that's not impressive, and constitutes a substantial drop from his regular season numbers. Yzerman had only one truly great year during the Red Wings' early 1st round exits (the late Dead Things era): 88-89 when he went 5-5-10 in 6 games. Other than that, his prime scoring record in first round exits is indistinguishable from Selanne's, other than that there is more of it.

92-98 (only the prime years) Joe Sakic's scoring record in years his team got eliminated in the 1st round: 9-7-16 in 18 games. Blech.

75-79 (only the prime years) Bryan Trottier's scoring record (the Isles didn't make it past the 2nd round): 5-22-27 in 42 games *most of you probably don't know this, but Trotts was considered a playoff choker before the Isles' first Cup run*

Top forwards on teams that get knocked out in the first round almost always end up looking quite pedestrian on the scoresheet. Teams that are eliminated that early in the postseason are often overwhelmed and overmatched against a much higher seed and simply crushed. If Steve Yzerman and Joe Sakic never had the opportunity to play on Cup contenders in their prime, would we say the same things about them that we now say about Selanne?

Selanne's playoff record is incomplete: there is no other way to evaluate it. He never played on a contender in his prime. Suggesting that he's a choker or a "fader", however, is the conviction of a kangaroo court. This is not a Marcel Dionne-type who was often outscored in the postseason by 3rd liners on his own team. An incomplete playoff record is a weakness, no doubt. And how shall we cover for it? Matching Selanne against second defensive/checking units and placing him on a line with proven playoff performers and on a unit with one of the stronger offensive #3 defensemen in the league seems like a good start.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

75-79 (only the prime years) Bryan Trottier's scoring record (the Isles didn't make it past the 2nd round): 5-22-27 in 42 games *most of you probably don't know this, but Trotts was considered a playoff choker before the Isles' first Cup run*

I realize I'm going a bit off topic here, but I can confirm this. When I was doing research on Marcel Dionne's playoff record, the newspaper referred to Bryan Trottier as big choker a few times. That occurred as recently 1980's first round (en route to winning his first Cup). It's an interesting fact about a player I find almost impossible to consider a playoff choker.

nik jr: I'll admit I was wrong about Hod Stuart in the last draft. It was bad talent assessment on my part.

 

[shawnmullin]

Game 1

LOCATION Springfield Arena
START TIME 7:00PM
ATTENDANCE Sell Out

SCORING SUMMARY

PERIOD 1
No Scoring

PERIOD 2
Springfield Isotopes at 7:35 - Norm Ullman from Andy Bathgate and Brad Park
Springfield Isotopes at 11:59 (PP) - Andy Bathgate from Brad Park

PERIOD 3

Springfield Isotopes at 9:07 - Hec Kilrea from Zdeno Chara

PENALTY SUMMARY

PERIOD 1

Philadelphia Flyers at 2:19 - Theo Fleury for High Sticking (2 Min.)
Philadelphia Flyers at 10:06 - Chris Pronger for Holding (2 Min.)
Springfield Isotopes at 14:07 - Dave Burrows for Holding (2 Min.)
Springfield Isotopes at 17:48 - Zdeno Chara for Hooking (2 Min.)

PERIOD 2

Philadelphia Flyers at 2:01 - Eddie Shore for Cross Checking (2 Min.)
Springfield Isotopes at 2:34 - Bobby Smith for Hooking (2 Min.)
Philadelphia Flyers at 5:12 - Doug Gilmour for Hooking (2 Min.)
Springfield Isotopes at 8:21 - Zdeno Chara for Cross Checking (2 Min.)
Philadelphia Flyers at 11:43 - Mattias Norstrom for Holding (2 Min.)
Philadelphia Flyers at 11:59 - Eddie Shore for Misconduct
Springfield Isotopes at 12:07 - John MacLean for Hooking (2 Min.)
Philadelphia Flyers at 12:07 - Ilya Kovalchuk for Roughing (2 Min.)
Philadelphia Flyers at 13:50 - Mike Peca for Interference (2 Min.)
Springfield Isotopes at 17:09 - Bill Barber for Hooking (2 Min.)

PERIOD 3

Philadelphia Flyers at 0:53 - Theo Fleury for Hooking (2 Min.)
Springfield Isotopes at 3:41 - Zdeno Chara for Slashing (2 Min.)
Philadelphia Flyers at 8:37 - Ryan Smyth Interference (2 Min.)
Springfield Isotopes at 10:55 - Zdeno Chara for Fighting (5 Min.)
Philadelphia Flyers at 10:55 - Eddie Shore for Fighting (5 Min.)
Philadelphia Flyers at 11:38 - Chris Pronger for Holding (2 Min.)
Philadelphia Flyers at 14:11 - Chris Pronger for Interference (2 Min.)
Philadelphia Flyers at 18:44 - Team Penalty for Misconduct
Springfield Isotopes at 19:59 - Bill Barber for Fighting (5 Min.)
Philadelphia Flyers at 19:59 - Kevin Stevens for Fighting (5 Min.)
Philadelphia Flyers at 19:59 - Kevin Stevens for Slashing (2 Min.)

GAME STARS

1rst Star: Andy Bathgate
2nd Star: Ken Dryden
3rd Star: Norm Ullman

SCORING

Philadelphia Flyers 0 0 0 0
Springfield Isotopes 0 2 1 3

SHOTS

Philadelphia Flyers 14 11 5 30
Springfield Isotopes 10 14 15 39

POWER PLAYS

Philadelphia Flyers 0 for 6
Springfield Isotopes 1 for 12

NOTES: Philadelphia got off to a strong early start, but Ken Dryden played flawlessly. Both goalies were strong in the first period, but in an interview Mike Keenan said his team was lucky to be tied. Both teams has plenty of chances in the second, including several power plays. The Isotopes again relied on strong play from Dryden to keep the Flyers at bay. Norm Ullman opened the scoring on a rebound from Bathgates off wing shot. Ullman drove the net with Ulf right on top of him and somehow got his stick on the rebound. Bathgate tipped in a Park shot on the power play to give his team a 2-0 lead. Eddie Shore blew up after the goal and nearly attacked the referee claiming Bathgate used a high stick. It earned him a 10 minute misconduct. The Flyers completely lost control int he third period. They took penalty after penalty forcing Parent and the PK unit to keep them in the game. However, Chara caught them with their guard down and sprung Kilrea on a mid-period breakaway. Shore again lost his temper and took on the 6'7 giant a minute later. Chara held his own, but Shore (despite the reach disadvantage) still got the better of him in a terrific fight. More rough stuff at the end of the game as Kevin Stevens hacked Bill Barber and the two scrapped to close out a chippy game.

 

[Leaf Lander]

I like the score summary

good job shawn

 

[shawnmullin]

LOCATION Springfield Arena
START TIME 7:00PM
ATTENDANCE Sell Out

SCORING SUMMARY

PERIOD 1

Springfield Isotopes at 13:13 (PP) - Teemu Selanne from Bobby Smith and Silvio Mantha
Philadelphia Flyers at 15:51 (PP) - Dale Hawerchuck from Eddie Shore

PERIOD 2

Philadelphia Flyers at 12:20 - Doug Gilmour from Chris Pronger

PERIOD 3

Springfield Isotopes at 12:28 (PP) - Bill Barber from Norm Ullman and Andy Bathgate

OVERTIME PERIOD 1

Philadelphia Flyers at 12:09 - Eddie Shore from Ryan Smyth

PENALTY SUMMARY

PERIOD 1

Springfield Isotopes at 0:26 - Hec Kilrea for Holding (2 Min.)
Springfield Isotopes at 8:55 - Bobby Smith for Interference (2 Min.)
Philadelphia Flyers at 9:25 - Mike Peca for Hooking (2 Min.)
Philadelphia Flyers at 11:43 - Eddie Shore for High Sticking (2 Min.)
Springfield Isotopes at 15:04 - Teemu Selanne for High Sticking (4 Min.)

PERIOD 2

Philadelphia Flyers at 2:11 - Chris Pronger for Boarding (2 Min.)
Springfield Isotopes at 12:20 - Bill Barber for Unsportsmanlike Conduct (2 Min.)
Philadelphia Flyers at 16:52 - Doug Gilmour for Tripping (2 Min.)

PERIOD 3

Philadelphia Flyers at 7:31 - Theo Fleury for Hooking (2 Min.)
Philadelphia Flyers at 12:20 - Ulf Samuelsson for Holding (2 Min.)
Philadelphia Flyers at 17:26 - Kevin Stevens for Goaltender Interference (2 Min.)
Springfield Isotopes at 20:00 - Zdeno Chara for Roughing (2 Min.)
Philadelphia Flyers at 20:00 - Eddie Shore for Cross Checking (2 Min.)

GAME STARS
1st STAR: Eddie Shore
2nd STAR: Bernie Parent
3rd STAR: Norm Ullman

SCORING

Philadelphia Flyers 1 1 0 1 3
Springfield Isotopes 1 0 1 0 2

SHOTS

Philadelphia Flyers 8 9 3 1 21
Springfield Isotopes 13 10 8 1 32

POWER PLAYS

Philadelphia Flyers 1 for 4
Springfield Isotopes 2 for 7

NOTES: Springfield again had a large advantage in PP opportunities and generated most of their shots and chances with the man advantage. However, the Flyers controlled the even strength play and dominated with a physical game. Eddie Shore was a beast. He hit everything that moved while created several offensive chances throughout the game. He set up Hawerchuck on the PP with a fake shot/pass and scored the Overtime winner by charging the goal on a Smyth shot. Shore banged in the rebound and the Flyers earned that all important split. Philadelphia took a second period lead on a Gilmour tip of Pronger's point shot. This time Springfield complained of a high stick and Barber took a penalty as a result.