ATD #9 Foster Hewitt Quarterfinal: #3 Ottawa RCAF Flyers vs. #6 St. Louis Eagles

FissionFire

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Ottawa RCAF Flyers
Coach: Tommy Gorman
Captain: Milt Schmidt
Alternate captain: Larry Robinson
Alternate captain: Clarence "Hap" Day
Alternate captain: Johnny Bucyk

#9 Johnny Bucyk - #15 Milt Schmidt - #8 Cam Neely
#27 Shayne Corson - #25 Jacques Lemaire - #18 Steve Larmer
#35 Mike McPhee - #11 Wayne Merrick - #20 Bobby Rousseau
#12 Brenden Morrow - #14 Glen Skov - #13 Blair Russell

#19 Larry Robinson - #3 Clarence "Hap" Day
#6 Doug "Diesel" Mohns - #5 Bill Barilko
#10 Ted Harris - #7 Brad Maxwell

#30 Gerry "Cheesy" Cheevers
#31 Hugh "Old Eagle Eyes" Lehman

Spares: #17 Russell "Dubbie" Bowie, #4 Joe Watson, Ray Getliffe

PP1: Bucyk - Schmidt - Neely - Robinson - Maxwell
PP2: Corson - Lemaire - Larmer - Day - Mohns

PK1: Rousseau - Schmidt - Robinson - Barilko
PK2: Morrow - Skov - Harris - Mohns
PK3: Larmer - Lemaire - Day - Maxwell
PK4: Russell - Merrick - Robinson - Barilko



St Louis Eagles
Head Coach: Hector "Toe" Blake
Captain : Maurice Richard
Alternates : Brian Sutter, Scott Mellanby

#8* Cy Denneny - #16 Elmer Lach - #9 Maurice "the Rocket" Richard (C)
#11 Brian Sutter (A) - #14 Ulf Nilsson - #7 Rod Gilbert
#17 Marcel Bonin - #10 Edgar Laprade - #6 Floyd Curry
#25 Tony McKegney - #77* Garry Unger - #19 Scott Mellanby (A)
#79 Pierre Turgeon

#00* Bill Quackenbush - #3* Ebbie Goodfellow
#12 Pat Stapleton - #55 Rob Ramage
#2 Bob Dailey - #4 Dave Ellett
#5 Bob Plager

#1 Cecil "Tiny" Thompson
#31* Roy "Shrimp" Worters
#29* Mike Karakas

PP #1
Denneny - Lach - Richard
Quackenbush - Goodfellow

PP #2
Sutter - Nilsson - Gilbert
Stapleton - Dailey

PK #1
Sutter - Laprade
Quackenbush - Ramage

PK #2
Bonin - Curry
Dailey - Goodfellow​
 
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God Bless Canada

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In today's headlines...

Flyers will get St. Louis in the first round
By Dickie Dunn

The Ottawa RCAF Flyers will be facing a tough, physical St. Louis Eagles entry in the first round of the ATD 9 playoffs.
Ottawa finished third in the Foster Hewitt Division in the regular season. Co-GM God Bless Canada said this was a team the Flyers' brass expected to face for much of the season.
"We figured it would be us and Minnesota fighting for second spot. If we finished second, we thought we'd get Montreal. If we finished third, we thought it would be St. Louis. We finished third, we get St. Louis. We'd rather be playing Montreal, but we think this is a team that we should be able to beat."
It'll be a tough, physical series, GBC said.
"St. Louis has a lot of guys who are not easy to play against. And not just their checkers and grinders. Rocket Richard, Cy Denney and Brian Sutter can all bring it physically. Elmer Lach wasn't a shrinking violet, either. Their first line is one of the few in the draft that won't be intimidated by our line-up."
GBC said they won't try to get one particular match-up, other than the Robinson-Day tandem, with their combination of speed, toughness and hockey sense, out against the Lach line.
"And Robinson can kill them offensively, too," said GBC. "That's why he should be a top 20 pick."
GBC believes his team has an edge on the blue line and overall team defence, in overall team speed, team toughness and character. Now that the playoffs are here, he believes they also have an edge in goal, as Gerry Cheevers earned a league-wide reputation as one of the best money goalies of all-time.
"In the regular season, yeah, I'd want Tiny Thompson," said GBC. "Except in a one-goal game. Then I'd want Cheevers. Cheevers was all about playoffs. Starting now, he's one of the best goalies in the draft."
They might not have an edge in skill, but in a playoff setting, GBC believes the club has an edge in secondary scoring, with the Lemaire-Larmer duo on the second line, the presence of Rousseau and Merrick on the third line, and Russell and Morrow on the fourth line.
GBC admitted the Eagles do have an edge behind the bench, but it's a small one. Tommy Gorman's one of the top 10 coaches in the draft, he said.
The Big...Bad...Bruins line should be able to keep pace with the Lach line offensively, he said, while providing the superior physical play and defensive ability that made the Big...Bad...Bruins line a favourite among many GMs.
"Schmidt's a star. Few players can do all that he does. Bucyk's a proven playoff performer and Neely's No. 4 all-time in playoff goals per game. They can beat you in every possible way."
 

Sturminator

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"And Robinson can kill them offensively, too," said GBC. "That's why he should be a top 20 pick."

You are essentially placing Larry Robinson above Nicklas Lidstrom and Red Kelly with this statement. I know there is another time and place for this argument (if you choose to take it up), but I think it's patently false.

I don't see any real clear distinction between Robinson, Park and Fetisov (throw in Chelios if you're feeling generous), to be honest. I'm not trying to run down Larry Robinson as a player or even criticize where you picked him (I thought about him at #25 before trading down), but I think he's generally the first defenseman picked from the 3rd tier (ok, 4th if you count Bobby Orr as his own tier) rather than the last one picked from the second.
 

BlueBleeder

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Forwards - Draw. A match up of two of the best 1st lines in the draft. Both teams are solid the rest of the way up front as well. We have a slidge edge in scoring, but Flyers have better two way players.

Defense - Draw. Flyers defense is tougher and a bit better defensively, but mine can really move the puck.

Goaltending - Edge to Flyers. Thompson was no slouch in the playoffs either, his playoff GAA is .2 below his regular season, the same as Cheevers. I'll give Cheevers the edge though due him playing in more games. Thompson does have a retro Conn Smyth as well.

Coaching - Edge Eagles. With Blake behind the bench hard not too.
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Laprade and Co., will have thier hands full with the BBB line, but they should be able to contain them for the most part.

As for playoff scoring, the Eagles have players who also pick up thier games come this time of year.

Rocket Richard - 82 Goals in 133 Games, two retro Conn Smyths.
Elmer Lach - Retro Conn Smyth
Marcel Bonin - Retro Conn Smyth
Nilsson - MVP in WHA playoffs

A playoff matchup I don't think either of us wanted in the first round.
 

God Bless Canada

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Forwards - Draw. A match up of two of the best 1st lines in the draft. Both teams are solid the rest of the way up front as well. We have a slidge edge in scoring, but Flyers have better two way players.

Defense - Draw. Flyers defense is tougher and a bit better defensively, but mine can really move the puck.

Goaltending - Edge to Flyers. Thompson was no slouch in the playoffs either, his playoff GAA is .2 below his regular season, the same as Cheevers. I'll give Cheevers the edge though due him playing in more games. Thompson does have a retro Conn Smyth as well.

Coaching - Edge Eagles. With Blake behind the bench hard not too.
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Laprade and Co., will have thier hands full with the BBB line, but they should be able to contain them for the most part.

As for playoff scoring, the Eagles have players who also pick up thier games come this time of year.

Rocket Richard - 82 Goals in 133 Games, two retro Conn Smyths.
Elmer Lach - Retro Conn Smyth
Marcel Bonin - Retro Conn Smyth
Nilsson - MVP in WHA playoffs

A playoff matchup I don't think either of us wanted in the first round.

Before I go any further, best of luck to you, Blue. I am looking forward to this.

You're right, you're not a match-up I wanted. I would have definitely rather played Donair City, or Montreal, or even Dallas, where I think we can use our speed and smarts to go along with what would have been a distinct edge in physical play. But I think we do have several advantages.

I'm not a big fan of retro awards. At the end, we don't know who would have won those awards. Although I'm sure a clutch player like Rocket Richard would have won one or two awards.

I think we definitely have edges in terms of team offence and team defence. I look at our defence, and we have four defencemen who can definitely contribute offensively. Robinson's a superstar. He was No. 22 on my HOH Top 100 list. Considering the emphasis on defence, I think he is worthy of a top 20 pick. (Although, sturm, I would pick Kelly ahead of him. Also keep in mind, sturm, that I wouldn't pick a goalie in the top 25). There isn't a defenceman like Robinson in the draft, with his size, skating ability, creativity, defensive ability and physical play. Conn Smythe winner, six-time Cup champion, led the Habs in scoring in 77.

Doug Mohns is one of the most underrated defencemen in the draft. Great skater, great offensive ability, tough, smart, solid defensively. Only defenceman in the 1950s to score 20 goals. Hap Day was very good offensively, and the only thing that kept Maxwell from putting up consistent high numbers were injuries. (He stayed healthy in the playoffs, though, and posted 61 points in 79 post-season games).

Come playoff time, our second line is probably better offensively. And they're better defensively. As much as I love Brian Sutter, his contributions were more on the physical end in the playoffs. One post-season above a point-per-game in the post-season, and 21 goals in 65 games? Not overhwelming. Shayne Corson's post-season point-per-game rate is .03 lower than Sutter's, and it was higher until his last couple years. Corson was almost a PPG in the playoffs in his prime from 1990 to 1998. Ulf Nilsson vs. Jacques Lemaire is hard to compare. We don't know what Nilsson would have done in the playoffs (his best days were in the WHA, where it was easier to score). We know what Lemaire did in the playoffs - led the Habs in playoff scoring in 79, second in 77 and 68. Rod Gilbert's playoff record is okay. 67 points in 79 games is okay, but it could be better for a guy with his offensive skill. Topped a point-per-game in the post-season twice. We all know what Larmer did in the playoffs - over a point-per-game until his last couple seasons.

I think our team defence is the best in the draft. Every one of our four lines can play against the opposition's best. Milt Schmidt is one of the best two-way forwards ever. He was in my top 30 for the HOH top 100, and I know I wasn't the only one. Our second line is not only strong in playoff production, all three are excellent defensively. Our third line has a good blend of the speed, smarts, defensive play and big-game play with Merrick and Rousseau, and the defensive presence of McPhee. And our fourth line can play against anyone in the league. Skov and Russell are good enough to play on third lines, Morrow's a solid fourth liner at this stage in his career, and he'll be a third line forward in this thing before his career is over.

Laprade and Curry are really good two-way line forwards. We were looking at Curry when we picked Rousseau. I think he was No. 4 on our list for available two-way line RW's at that time. Laprade might have some trouble against Schmidt, but he's not a liability. I think Bonin is out of place. He's a good fourth line grinding winger. Trying to shut down a guy like Neely, who was magnificent in the playoffs (and is taking passes from Schmidt), could be a nightmare match-up for you. The bad news? Tony McKegney wouldn't be a step up for the third line.
 
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MXD

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Geez, is it me, or if a team would have a... let's say, Bernie Geoffrion on the 2nd line, that would ease the voting process? (that's not a slight on Nilsson, or on everybody on the... bottom-9), but secondary scoring might comes from Brad Maxwell and.... well, Pierre Turgeon in the pressbox.
 

God Bless Canada

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...c'tait l'automne passé ca :)
For the record, MXD said "that was last autumn." Or something to that effect.

Max Bentley's a better offensive centre than Schmidt, I won't deny it. I think Magic Max is one of the top six or seven offensive centres in league history. But Schmidt is the better all-round player, the better hockey player. Schmidt's a Trottier clone - a game-breaking offensive threat who can very effectively take care of his own zone and play a physical brand of hockey. And there's no better centre for our top line.

Incidentally, Max Bentley was No. 3 on my list for our second round pick. After Schmidt and Jagr. Biggest steal of the draft.
 

arrbez

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Jun 2, 2004
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Geez, is it me, or if a team would have a... let's say, Bernie Geoffrion on the 2nd line, that would ease the voting process? (that's not a slight on Nilsson, or on everybody on the... bottom-9), but secondary scoring might comes from Brad Maxwell and.... well, Pierre Turgeon in the pressbox.

Heh, for real. I don't really like secondary scoring in this series in general. This would be my main knock against both teams, and it's funny that it won't be exploited for either. A guy like Lemaire is a nice second line centre, but not as the offensive centerpiece of a line. Gilbert is a solid second line threat, but I think he needs a better centre than Nilsson to truly excel. Honestly, I think Turgeon is a better fit. Not a perfect player by any means, but I think he gets unfairly slighted around here. As MXD says, if either squad had a true ace on the second line, it would be a big advantage.
 

God Bless Canada

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Heh, for real. I don't really like secondary scoring in this series in general. This would be my main knock against both teams, and it's funny that it won't be exploited for either. A guy like Lemaire is a nice second line centre, but not as the offensive centerpiece of a line. Gilbert is a solid second line threat, but I think he needs a better centre than Nilsson to truly excel. Honestly, I think Turgeon is a better fit. Not a perfect player by any means, but I think he gets unfairly slighted around here. As MXD says, if either squad had a true ace on the second line, it would be a big advantage.
I think Lemaire's getting underrated here. Led the 79 Habs in post-season scoring; second for Montreal in post-season scoring twice. Excellent skater, hard shooter and terrific hockey sense. Three times in the top 10 in scoring. And he works very well with Steve Larmer. Both players have that great blend of shooting ability and playmaking ability, they play excellent two-way games, and they deliver in the playoffs.

I don't think Turgeon would be able to do much against our defence. Too smart, too physical. One of Turgeon's best attributes was his ability to slow the game down to his pace. He wouldn't be able to get away with that against our defence, who have the mobility to play against the faster lines, but the hockey sense to play against someone like Turgeon. Turgeon's too soft to play in this series.
 

Sturminator

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I think Lemaire's getting underrated here. Led the 79 Habs in post-season scoring; second for Montreal in post-season scoring twice. Excellent skater, hard shooter and terrific hockey sense. Three times in the top 10 in scoring. And he works very well with Steve Larmer. Both players have that great blend of shooting ability and playmaking ability, they play excellent two-way games, and they deliver in the playoffs.

I agree with you about Lemaire. He's a great 2-way 2nd line center who was big in the playoffs and is certainly capable of sparking a secondary scoringline. Corson isn't much of a second line scoring winger, but Larmer can get the job done. With Mohns pushing the puck on the second pairing, I think the RCAF can mount a credible second line scoring attack - not a huge one, but they will put the puck in the net.

Bobby Rousseau is also one of the best third line scoring wingers in this or any ATD, and a strong checker, to boot. The only real knock against Rousseau is that he was incredibly soft - not the right guy to use against a mauling LW like...I dunno, Johnny Bucyk, but I think he's a strong matchup against Denneny, if GBC chooses to go that route. He'll be somewhat on his own in the scoring department with Merrick and McPhee for linemates, but I think Rousseau constitutes a credible threat from the 3rd line.

Edgar Laprade also shouldn't be overlooked on St. Louis' 3rd line. Again, he's not getting a lot of help from his linemates, but the guy was a great skater, puckhandler and counterattacker. Rod Gilbert is the best raw offensive talent in the series below the first lines and like Mohns on the other side, Pat Stapleton is a very strong 2nd pairing puckmover. I think secondary scoring in this series, while not huge, will certainly come into play more than some GMs seem to believe.
 

BlueBleeder

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Bonin can go into the corners and get the puck. He is by no means the best defensive player on that line, but he can get the puck to Curry and Laprade.
Plus Bonin and Floyd both played for Blake during the five cup streak. So they like Richard know what it takes to win with Blake.

Since it looks like this is going to be a low-scoring series, something to remember is Richard's 6 playoff OT goals.
 

pappyline

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I like both these teams and it is a pity one has to be eliminated. Can't figure out how the Eagles ended up 6th. i had both Eagles & Ottawa in the top 3.

Both have a great #1 line & both have 4 well assembled lines. I call the forwards a draw. Should be fun to see old rivals like Schmidt & Lack go at it. Hopefully you guys match up first lines.

The defense squads are fairly even also. Ottawa's looks tougher & stronger defensively with Robinson, Day, Mohns & Barilko. The Eagles D may be more mobile & stronger offensively. Quackenbush, Goodfellow & stapleton are all very good with the puck.

Close in goal but I give a slight edge to Thompson.

Both teams have great coaches.

Haven't decided who to vote for. Will listen to the opposing arguments. This series shouldn't have happened so early but it will be a barn burner.
 

BlueBleeder

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I like both these teams and it is a pity one has to be eliminated. Can't figure out how the Eagles ended up 6th. i had both Eagles & Ottawa in the top 3.

Both have a great #1 line & both have 4 well assembled lines. I call the forwards a draw. Should be fun to see old rivals like Schmidt & Lack go at it. Hopefully you guys match up first lines.

The defense squads are fairly even also. Ottawa's looks tougher & stronger defensively with Robinson, Day, Mohns & Barilko. The Eagles D may be more mobile & stronger offensively. Quackenbush, Goodfellow & stapleton are all very good with the puck.

Close in goal but I give a slight edge to Thompson.

Both teams have great coaches.

Haven't decided who to vote for. Will listen to the opposing arguments. This series shouldn't have happened so early but it will be a barn burner.

I figured myself to finish in the top 4 and avoid the Flyers for a round or two.
 

John Flyers Fan

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Robinson's a superstar. He was No. 22 on my HOH Top 100 list. Considering the emphasis on defence, I think he is worthy of a top 20 pick. (Although, sturm, I would pick Kelly ahead of him. Also keep in mind, sturm, that I wouldn't pick a goalie in the top 25). There isn't a defenceman like Robinson in the draft, with his size, skating ability, creativity, defensive ability and physical play. Conn Smythe winner, six-time Cup champion, led the Habs in scoring in 77.

Robinson was a very very good defenseman, but he wasn't a superstar. He was the 2nd best defenseman of the post Orr, say 1976-85 era.
 

God Bless Canada

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Robinson was a very very good defenseman, but he wasn't a superstar. He was the 2nd best defenseman of the post Orr, say 1976-85 era.
And No. 1 would be? Potvin? That's the No. 5 defenceman of all-time. And I would say that Robinson was the best defenceman from 76 to 80, when you look at how good he was in the playoffs.
 

John Flyers Fan

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And No. 1 would be? Potvin? That's the No. 5 defenceman of all-time. And I would say that Robinson was the best defenceman from 76 to 80, when you look at how good he was in the playoffs.

Yes, Potvin. Potvin won the Norris in 76, 78 and 79, and then missed most of the 80 regular season, before finishing it up with a Stanley Cup. Robinson only won one Norris during that period while Potvin was healthy.

In the ATD format I think your only superstars are Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe, Hull, Richard, Beliveau, Orr, Shore and Harvey.
 

God Bless Canada

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Yes, Potvin. Potvin won the Norris in 76, 78 and 79, and then missed most of the 80 regular season, before finishing it up with a Stanley Cup. Robinson only won one Norris during that period while Potvin was healthy.

In the ATD format I think your only superstars are Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe, Hull, Richard, Beliveau, Orr, Shore and Harvey.
There isn't a defenceman like Robinson in the draft. Nobody combines mobility, size, creativity, skill, defensive ability, toughness and playoff performance like Big Bird.

Since you're a Flyers fan, I don't think I have to tell you just how dominant Robinson was. Philly had no answer for Robinson in the 1976 final. And after the 76 final, they set out to find their own version of Larry Robinson. (They got Bob Dailey, a C-version of Robinson).
 

God Bless Canada

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Bonin can go into the corners and get the puck. He is by no means the best defensive player on that line, but he can get the puck to Curry and Laprade.
Plus Bonin and Floyd both played for Blake during the five cup streak. So they like Richard know what it takes to win with Blake.

Since it looks like this is going to be a low-scoring series, something to remember is Richard's 6 playoff OT goals.
But is Bonin good enough defensively to play shift after shift against a Larmer or especially a Neely? I don't think he is. As I said before, I like Bonin in a fourth line role, for the reasons you outlined above. But in a third line role? It's a match-up that could be exploited.
 

God Bless Canada

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I agree with you about Lemaire. He's a great 2-way 2nd line center who was big in the playoffs and is certainly capable of sparking a secondary scoringline. Corson isn't much of a second line scoring winger, but Larmer can get the job done. With Mohns pushing the puck on the second pairing, I think the RCAF can mount a credible second line scoring attack - not a huge one, but they will put the puck in the net.

Bobby Rousseau is also one of the best third line scoring wingers in this or any ATD, and a strong checker, to boot. The only real knock against Rousseau is that he was incredibly soft - not the right guy to use against a mauling LW like...I dunno, Johnny Bucyk, but I think he's a strong matchup against Denneny, if GBC chooses to go that route. He'll be somewhat on his own in the scoring department with Merrick and McPhee for linemates, but I think Rousseau constitutes a credible threat from the 3rd line.

Edgar Laprade also shouldn't be overlooked on St. Louis' 3rd line. Again, he's not getting a lot of help from his linemates, but the guy was a great skater, puckhandler and counterattacker. Rod Gilbert is the best raw offensive talent in the series below the first lines and like Mohns on the other side, Pat Stapleton is a very strong 2nd pairing puckmover. I think secondary scoring in this series, while not huge, will certainly come into play more than some GMs seem to believe.
I like Laprade a lot. He's a solid third line centre for this thing, and one of the few forwards in the HHOF based largely on his defensive play. Granted, it was a veteran's committee selection, and a contentious one at that, but Laprade is there. (Outside of the year Buddy O'Connor went off in 48, Laprade's numbers were never overwhelming). I don't know if his line can handle the Big...Bad...Bruins.

I think Mohns is a lot like Gary Suter, to use a modern comparison. An average-sized defenceman with excellent offensive ability, strong skating, good strength, very good defensive play, and excellent toughness. Mohns is probably a little faster, a little stronger than Suter, but a defenceman who can make a difference offensively without letting it take away from other aspects of his game.

Merrick's okay offensively. He had a point-per-game in one post-season with the Isles, and he topped 55 points three times. Not glittering numbers, certainly not the two-way threat that Rousseau is, but he can get you two or three points in a series.

Forward match-ups aren't that big of a deal for us, because we've got four well-rounded lines. The big one is getting Robinson-Day out there against Richard. That Barilko-Mohns duo could also come in handy against Richard.
 

shawnmullin

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I'm not surprised Ottawa finished third in the regular season. That's not because I think Ottawa is the third best team in this division, it's because I think they're built for playoff wars. That's the kind of team GBC and raleh build, and they've really done that this time.

Ottawa has the best defenceman in the series, St. Louis has the best forward. St. Louis might be a little more potent, but Ottawa is tougher and has more checkers. Goaltending in my opinion isn't going to be a deciding factor. I like Thompson overall better (he's from around here too) but Cheevers is a clutch goaltender who should match him.

Coaching isn't too distinct an advantage either, although I'd say St. Louis takes that one.

Ottawa's main advantage is depth... I think Ottawa's is a little stronger and more playoff ready. Not as much as they would be against some other teams, but still I think they have the advantage there. Second line centre is a glaring match-up weakness I think. Nilsson is a fine C, I had him last time, but he doesn't bring the dimensions that Lemaire does. That's a big reason why I like the second line better for Ottawa. Both teams have really nice third lines, and I think Ottawa has the better fourth.

The two first lines are also very good. It'd say it's an advantage for St. Louis, but in most series' it'd be a much bigger advantage than it is in this one. This one is very close that way.

I think St. Louis as a #6 in most divisions is a prime upset candidate, but this is not the kind of team they wanted to face. This team is similarely tough and battle ready.

I'd have initially expected Ottawa to have a fairly easy time in the first round, but this series should turn out to be a war even if they still are able to get through.
 

Sturminator

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Robinson's a superstar. He was No. 22 on my HOH Top 100 list. Considering the emphasis on defence, I think he is worthy of a top 20 pick. (Although, sturm, I would pick Kelly ahead of him. Also keep in mind, sturm, that I wouldn't pick a goalie in the top 25).

You seem to be suggesting by omission that you would take Larry Robinson over Nicklas Lidstrom, which doesn't do much for your argument, in my opinion.

Your feelings on goalies in the first round are noted. I strongly disagree, but at least we're clear on that point. Actually, I think the value of first round goalies has gotten better and better the more inflated the value of the second/third tier goalies has become. Drafting Glen Hall doesn't cost any more now than it did three drafts ago, but drafting Jiri Holecek sure does.
 

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