ATD 2021 - Jim Robson Division First Round (3) Arizona Coyotes v. (6) Gallifrey TARDIS

[ResilientBeast]

Why Arizona should win

Goaltending: No matter the spin, Roy is the greatest player in this series and the best playoff performer of the bunch. Comparing him to Esposito/Thompson especially with a similar quality of defence in front of him it's a massive advantage for the Coyotes.
Center depth: Taylor/Lalonde obliterate Francis/Perreault as a duo up front
Defensive play from forwards: The best defensive player on the Tardis is probably Francis? I'd take MacKay and Walker ahead of him but it's closer on MacKay for sure. Outside of that Prentice/Lepine/MacGreggor/Roberts form a strong core of two way forwards who can counter the more offensively slanted Tardis team
Third pairing: Might be controversial but I'd take both of my guys ahead of either member on the Tardis. At 24 teams I think Patrick is a weak 4D and Svedberg a strong 5D. Foote is just outclassed amongst these players.

 

[ResilientBeast]

How is it dishonest to point out that the team that has more assets to play defensively also has more units to try to counter?! That makes no sense whatsoever.

You're right that was too far

Edit: I definitely misread this statement and jumped at it prematurely lol

 

[The Macho King]

Fight! Fight! Fight!

 

[ResilientBeast]

Fight! Fight! Fight!

 

[nabby12]

Ok but if I have pieces to slow your offensive lines down then just saying 3>2 is dishonest. May as well just sum up VsX and move on with that logic.

And that third line can drive offence for both teams alright. I would love to watch McDavid try and outskate Taylor or avoid Walker/Lepine, turning the puck over in the process, and rely on Nash and Bondra to backcheck for him.

Good arguments from both sides so far.

The bolded part here is pretty dumb though. McDavid is quite likely the fastest and most skilled player the game of hockey has ever seen, so trying to talk down to him as you're trying to, will only make you look foolish to most people here.

You have a small advantage at 1C/2C with Taylor/Lalonde vs Francis/Perreault. It's not some astronomical difference that you keep spewing.

Your saving grace is that you have the goaltending advantage in Roy. But he's not going to be able to get away with playing average. He needs to be excellent to give you a chance here.

I don't know, I'm starting to smell an upset brewing. It's certainly not the run-away series that I'm sure you initially anticipated with your first post. I look forward to following this one closely as it's the only series with more than a couple of posts so far!

 

[ResilientBeast]

Good arguments from both sides so far.

The bolded part here is pretty dumb though. McDavid is quite likely the fastest and most skilled player the game of hockey has ever seen, so trying to talk down to him as you're trying to, will only make you look foolish to most people here.

You have a small advantage at 1C/2C with Taylor/Lalonde vs Francis/Perreault. It's not some astronomical difference that you keep spewing.

Your saving grace is that you have the goaltending advantage in Roy. But he's not going to be able to get away with playing average. He needs to be excellent to give you a chance here.

I don't know, I'm starting to smell an upset brewing. It's certainly not the run-away series that I'm sure you initially anticipated with your first post. I look forward to following this one closely as it's the only series with more than a couple of posts so far!

What????? You must think so you little of Taylor & Lalonde that a Francis & Perreault duo is even comparable. Taylor and Lalonde are closer all-time to Lindsay and Richard than Francis & Perreault

HOH top 200 project - I know this is lazy, but how am I supposed to address such a comment?
Cyclone Taylor 33rd
Newsy Lalonde 39th

Ron Francis 120th
Gilbert Perreault 132nd

Edit: To the first bold, of course it sounds silly, but McDavid blows people away with his skating. Taylor was the best skater of his era and possibly the best skater before Morenz. Using hyperbole to highlight McDavid being a horrible defender in an all-time context. Because he full stop is, maybe not Bill Cowley bad, but among the worst scoring line Cs defensively.

Double Edit: And I've watched most of McDavid's career and he's done that exact thing many many many times

 

[ResilientBeast]

He has two centers who are average to below-average 2Cs at 24 teams

I have two centers in the top 15 all time

Of course that's a huge advantage, I'm not even sure what else needs to be said about that take

 

[nabby12]

He has two centers who are average to below-average 2Cs at 24 teams

I have two centers in the top 15 all time

Of course that's a huge advantage, I'm not even sure what else needs to be said about that take

What form of hockey exactly are we playing in this mock draft? The six-man game when Taylor/Lalonde played as a Rover? A position that isn't even in the sport anymore.

You need to account for the fact that Francis/Perreault played and were elite in more modern era's when the game was played with the current rules and formations. That's not to say that surely your guys would have adapted to become the same great players.

You can go off your HoH rankings, etc, all you want. I'm not arguing that you have an advantage, but to say that Taylor/Lalonde are such an astronomical advantage to Francis/Perreault like they're a couple of minor league players isn't right and something needed to be said.

 

[ResilientBeast]

What form of hockey exactly are we playing in this mock draft? The six-man game when Taylor/Lalonde played as a Rover? A position that isn't even in the sport anymore.

You need to account for the fact that Francis/Perreault played and were elite in more modern era's when the game was played with the current rules and formations. That's not to say that surely your guys would have adapted to become the same great players.

You can go off your HoH rankings, etc, all you want. I'm not arguing that you have an advantage, but to say that Taylor/Lalonde are such an astronomical advantage to Francis/Perreault like they're a couple of minor league players isn't right and something needed to be said.

Now your turn for hyperbole I see hey?

They're average-below average 2Cs in a draft of the greatest hockey players of all time which means there are 30ish Cs I'd take ahead of them.

Edit: Since you might not know, Lalonde and Taylor spent a substantial amount of time playing C as well as Rover

 

[rmartin65]

Huh... I guess old time players suck now. That's neat.

 

[nabby12]

Huh... I guess old time players suck now. That's neat.

No, that's not even close to what I'm getting at.

 

[rmartin65]

No, that's not even close to what I'm getting at.

Nor is @ResilientBeast saying that Francis and Perreault are minor leaguers.

Regardless of what you make of the match-up as a whole, it doesn't make a lot of sense (to me, at least) to argue against Arizona having a massive advantage at 1C and 2C.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Why Arizona should win

Goaltending: No matter the spin, Roy is the greatest player in this series and the best playoff performer of the bunch..

It's reasonable to say Roy is the greatest playoff performer this series, but Richard is awfully close.

 

[tabness]

Francis I can get behind to be behind Arizona’s one two punch, as he was generally not considered to be in that top tier (now I guess considered the second tier because of the accomplishments of Gretzky and Lemieux) of centers when he played, but Perreault was a talent who had he say been in Montreal instead of Lafleur would be seen as very comparable to how Lafleur is, no? At least I think so and ranked accordingly.

Also a guy like McDavid is honestly the reason I think there should be a rule to hold off drafting active players at least below a certain age/seasons played threshold. As it is he’s one of the reasons I ranked Gallifrey much higher than where others must have to have them finishing last.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Francis I can get behind to be behind Arizona’s one two punch, as he was generally not considered to be in that top tier (now I guess considered the second tier because of the accomplishments of Gretzky and Lemieux) of centers when he played, but Perreault was a talent who had he say been in Montreal instead of Lafleur would be seen as very comparable to how Lafleur is, no? At least I think so and ranked accordingly.

Also a guy like McDavid is honestly the reason I think there should be a rule to hold off drafting active players at least below a certain age/seasons played threshold. As it is he’s one of the reasons I ranked Gallifrey much higher than where others must have to have them finishing last.

Our general rule is 300GP then they're fair game

 

[Professor What]

To try to clear the air here, I'm not disputing that my opponent has an advantage at center. I didn't take a center until the fifth round after all. At forward, he has the advantage in the top center slots, rather clearly, and I have the advantage at the top wing spots, again, rather clearly. That should be expected, since I went wing in the first two rounds to get possibly the second best right wing and third best left wing of all time.

The argument I make for my center depth is an offensive one, and it's a clear strength. But at the same time, I'm not arguing the defensive aspect, as that would be disingenuous. My ultimate contention in this matchup, boiled down to its simplest terms, is that my team is capable of burying an opponent in goals, and that I think they have enough fire power to win the day, even against Roy in net.

 

[Professor What]

Our general rule is 300GP then they're fair game

Huh. I didn't know about that.

 

[ResilientBeast]

To try to clear the air here, I'm not disputing that my opponent has an advantage at center. I didn't take a center until the fifth round after all. At forward, he has the advantage in the top center slots, rather clearly, and I have the advantage at the top wing spots, again, rather clearly. That should be expected, since I went wing in the first two rounds to get possibly the second best right wing and third best left wing of all time.

The argument I make for my center depth is an offensive one, and it's a clear strength. But at the same time, I'm not arguing the defensive aspect, as that would be disingenuous. My ultimate contention in this matchup, boiled down to its simplest terms, is that my team is capable of burying an opponent in goals, and that I think they have enough fire power to win the day, even against Roy in net.

The like was obviously for the first half of this comment, will they be able to bury us in goals though?

Richard and Lindsay have VsX scores just over 100

I would have Taylor right around there and Lalonde just a little behind. I have them split across two lines to more evenly distribute my scoring.

I don't think you can just flat out outscore me despite you saying that over and over.

Edit: And we can't use VsX really since my roster is just not conducive to that at all lol

 

[ResilientBeast]

I'm not saying your top line isn't superior offensively but isn't absolutely outclassing my own especially when you consider my second best offensive player is on the next line while you chose to stack them.

I think my second line offensively is probably better than your own because Noble drags it down, and I feel you underrate Tommy Smith and Mickey MacKay's offence.

Third lines are entirely different, Walker is poor offensively but he's there to harass your centers, and Oatman and Roberts are a hardworking physical two way duo.

 

[Professor What]

The like was obviously for the first half of this comment, will they be able to bury us in goals though?

Richard and Lindsay have VsX scores just over 100

I would have Taylor right around there and Lalonde just a little behind. I have them split across two lines to more evenly distribute my scoring.

I don't think you can just flat out outscore me despite you saying that over and over.

A break down of my post might clarify what I'm getting at. I said they can bury "an" opponent in goals and then said that I think they have enough fire power to win the day "even against Roy." No, they won't score as much against Roy. But they're still going to score goals. And, going back to the three lines deal, I've got scoring spread across three lines. Noble is probably more defensive leaning as opposed to offense than anyone else on the top three lines, and he's no offensive slouch. You're never going to get me to back away from the assertion that my team is going to score goals, because I'm utterly convinced they will. I don't think anything has been said that truly challenges that. But saying that the offense can carry the team is much different saying we're going to score seven or eight goals a game. Let's be clear. I'm not saying something like that. And I still fully trust in the defensive capability of my blue line to give my netminders enough support to keep ahead.

 

[Professor What]

I'm not saying your top line isn't superior offensively but isn't absolutely outclassing my own especially when you consider my second best offensive player is on the next line while you chose to stack them.

I think my second line offensively is probably better than your own because Noble drags it down, and I feel you underrate Tommy Smith and Mickey MacKay's offence.

Third lines are entirely different, Walker is poor offensively but he's there to harass your centers, and Oatman and Roberts are a hardworking physical two way duo.

I don't know if this is a considered a cheap shot (it's not intended that way), but you've brought MacKay into question yourself in the top 200 project.

 

[ResilientBeast]

I don't know if this is a considered a cheap shot (it's not intended that way), but you've brought MacKay into question yourself in the top 200 project.

Nah I knew I was opening myself up. I still think his offense is underrated and there's a reason that Foyston goes ahead of him in this draft. Even with MacKay really being a winger I don't think that'll change.

Edit: To clarify, I don't think MacKay is clearly the second best player in PCHA history and would like Foyston to come up for voting in the project to do a detailed comparison. In the ATD Foyston now goes first by 40ish picks and that might be partly due to positional flexibility and I don't see that changing just because all of a sudden MacKay can be a RWer

 

[ResilientBeast]

A break down of my post might clarify what I'm getting at. I said they can bury "an" opponent in goals and then said that I think they have enough fire power to win the day "even against Roy." No, they won't score as much against Roy. But they're still going to score goals. And, going back to the three lines deal, I've got scoring spread across three lines. Noble is probably more defensive leaning as opposed to offense than anyone else on the top three lines, and he's no ofensive slouch. You're never going to get me to back away from the assertion that my team is going to score goals, because I'm utterly convinced they will. I don't think anything has been said that truly challenges that. But saying that the offense can carry the team is much different saying we're going to score seven or eight goals a game. Let'sf be clear. I'm not saying something like that. And I still fully trust in the defensive capability of my blue line to give my netminders enough support to keep ahead.

Noble is a slouch at this level offensively as a F: 3rd, 6th, 6th, 6th, 7th, 8th in a split league. That's is bad edit: compared to Smith, MacKay, Oatman & Roberts

Points
MacKay: 2, 2, 2, 3, 6, 9, 10, 10
Tommy Smith: 1, 1, 2

Those records under similar conditions are way better than Nobles. I also think MacKay was probably a decent amount a stronger defensive player than Noble unless we've found praise like MacKay received comparing him to Nighbor.

Your team will score, but you don't have the support up front to slow down my top 2 units from your forwards and seem to expect your defence and Esposito to bail them out. My 3rd line with Roberts and Oatman will also score. Oatman & Robert's scoring records are better than Nobles in the NHA/NHL while also bringing all around games.
Oatman
PCHA Points - 3rd(1915), 3rd(1920), 4th(1918), 5th(1914), 6th(1916), 8th(1913), 8th(1919), 8th(1922)
NHA Points - 7th(1912), 9th(1917)

Better longevity and spent time at D as my project has shown so far.

Roberts
Top-10 in points 7 times (2nd*, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd*, 5th*, 6th, 10th) *-PCHA

And both of these players played under similar split league conditions as Noble and achieved more.

 

[tabness]

I do really like the Jack Walker pick from Arizona’s side. A great skillset to check McDavid’s individual rushes. Good thing Bondra’s on that line though, assuming the forward pass is allowed?

He seems to not be considered as highly as Foyston and is taken quite a bit after, but I’ve actually read many game reports of the Mets (earlier before the twenties mostly though to be fair) and well, let’s just say that the talk wasn’t so much about Foyston’s team, as it was the core of Walker, Foyston, and Carpenter (and Holmes when goalies were mentioned). For all the talk of Frank Nighbor’s defensive game, recall that Jack Walker was sort of the man when these guys were kids in Port Arthur, and showed them the way to do it.

Carpenter obviously doesn’t get taken because of his shortened career as compared to Rowe, but I would hazard a guess that Walker and Foyston are a lot closer than they are perceived to be here and now.

 

[Dreakmur]

Our general rule is 300GP then they're fair game

That used to be a rule, but I don’t think it is anymore.

The wide use of the 7 season standard has really put a damper on picking guys with only a handful of seasons, no matter how dominant.