ATD 2021 Draft Thread IV

[rmartin65]

And yes, I know it's my turn. Going through a few options.

Take your time

EDIT- I mean that in earnest, not sarcastically. This draft has flown by.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Take your time

EDIT- I mean that in earnest, not sarcastically. This draft has flown by.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Prime Madden never played LW regularly, but he was temporarily moved there situationally. He was moved to LW next to C Bobby Holik to shadow the Jagr/Lemieux duo for one series in the 2001 playoffs, and maybe one or two other times in his prime.

Towards beginning and end of Madden's career, he sometimes played LW, but he was not really in his prime then.

IMO, at LW, Madden loses a lot that makes him historically noteworthy, but not everything. He loses his faceoff ability and most of his even strength offense (such as it were). Madden at LW was never able to get in position to get his deceptive shot away, which is what made him a sometimes-threat at the counterattack. He was still a good shadow, but Madden at LW is probably no better than his longtime linemate who regularly lined up at LW and usually doesn't get drafted.

In the ATD, if I'm drafting Madden at "left wing," it's to play limited 4th line minutes at ES and to center the PK.

And I think to add a more complex look at secondary positions, playing a guy out of position on a scoring line, when they're going to play 14, 15+ minutes at a minimum is different than a 4th liner playing 10 and playing a more defensive role.

I have no issue with someone throwing Giroux out at RW. That should be up to the GM. We just need to be consistent in how we value a player in their secondary spot. Giroux at RW isn't the worst shift in the world, but in no way should he be given his 88, 7 year score out there, even IF the reality is he'd probably do just as well out there as he has at LW. BUT, actually doing it and probably are two very different conclusions.

Also, I would like to add, just because a player is at a wing position doesn't mean they can't take draws. Giroux is a perfect example of this, ironically enough. Look at his FO stats the past 3 years. He's still great and still taking a lot.

So even if Madden is skating a bit at LW, he's still going to take the faceoff's. Unless the C is a markedly better draw man.

 

[VanIslander]

My dad had a saying that generated laughs:

"Take your time... but hurry up!"

EDIT: My dad said it early 1980s, so it was in the ether/culture for that superstar to use just down the road from Vancouver.


The Admirals select 6'5 tall, 228 lbs. right winger Blake Wheeler, the 2nd team NHL all star the season he was 1st in NHL assists (also was 3rd, 5th, 9th). The 7-year captain led his team in playoff scoring to the conference finals. He has been a consistent offensive producer for nearly a decade.

Has tremendous size and reach for the wing position, as well as good wheels for a big guy. Controls the puck effectively in the corners and possesses a good scoring touch. Is at his best when driving through traffic areas.

 

[BraveCanadian]

And I think to add a more complex look at secondary positions, playing a guy out of position on a scoring line, when they're going to play 14, 15+ minutes at a minimum is different than a 4th liner playing 10 and playing a more defensive role.

I agree, like TDMM said, I would have no problem keeping Madden as a specialist for shadowing and the PK etc. while being a 4th line winger.

This dovetails a bit into the death of 3rd line checking lines a few years ago in the ATD because people were comparing the offense of real life 1st and 2nd liners who were decent defensively to players that were legitimate 3rd liner checkers in real life. There are some disconnects in how people evaluate things for an ATD team.

 

[ImporterExporter]

I agree, like TDMM said, I would have no problem keeping Madden as a specialist for shadowing and the PK etc. while being a 4th line winger.

This dovetails a bit into the death of 3rd line checking lines a few years ago in the ATD because people were comparing the offense of real life 1st and 2nd liners who were decent defensively to players that were legitimate 3rd liner checkers in real life. There are some disconnects in how people evaluate things for an ATD team.

Yep. And I think that's a good thing, at least in the sense it helps us talk out these sorts of specific situations. If we all had a narrow view on how to build or where/when a player could shift, it would make for a very boring experience haha.

 

[tinyzombies]

I agree, like TDMM said, I would have no problem keeping Madden as a specialist for shadowing and the PK etc. while being a 4th line winger.

This dovetails a bit into the death of 3rd line checking lines a few years ago in the ATD because people were comparing the offense of real life 1st and 2nd liners who were decent defensively to players that were legitimate 3rd liner checkers in real life. There are some disconnects in how people evaluate things for an ATD team.

Defense-only is probably a last resort, it should not be a primary goal in this setting, esp in a smaller draft. The best defense is a good offense. You can't just sit back and defend the best to ever lace them up, it won't work.

Will be interesting to see in a small draft what happens with those teams that loaded up on elite defensemen at the beginning of the draft. They might be the exception because there will have been enough offense left to complete a team... could be scary.

 

[MadArcand]

Kesler and Fedorov are RW. Neither of them did anything close to what Giroux did in that position.

Now Madden is a LW. When was he ever a good winger?

False argument. I'm not playing Kesler at RW.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

Now Madden is a LW. When was he ever a good winger?

What, exactly, is this "now" **** of which you speak?!

The last 10 ATDs (Main-ATD & OPPF), Madden has been deployed at LW seven times, Centre thrice.

So before you go throwing around misleading framings like "now," please reflect on this.

****- this is my Main-ATD debut, and I've been able to take note of that much...

 

[tinyzombies]

What, exactly, is this "now" **** of which you speak?!

The last 10 ATDs (Main-ATD & OPPF), Madden has been deployed at LW seven times, Centre thrice.

So before you go throwing around misleading framings like "now," please reflect on this.

****- this is my Main-ATD debut, and I've been able to take note of that much...

I had both Madden and Holik before and they can both switch LW/C, and I caught flack for that and it was a bigger draft. My argument was that Holik could take the bigger centers.

 

[Dreakmur]

What, exactly, is this "now" **** of which you speak?!

The last 10 ATDs (Main-ATD & OPPF), Madden has been deployed at LW seven times, Centre thrice.

So before you go throwing around misleading framings like "now," please reflect on this.

****- this is my Main-ATD debut, and I've been able to take note of that much...

John Madden was never a quality left winger. Those previous GMs were wrong to play him on LW.

 

[Dreakmur]

I agree, like TDMM said, I would have no problem keeping Madden as a specialist for shadowing and the PK etc. while being a 4th line winger.

This dovetails a bit into the death of 3rd line checking lines a few years ago in the ATD because people were comparing the offense of real life 1st and 2nd liners who were decent defensively to players that were legitimate 3rd liner checkers in real life. There are some disconnects in how people evaluate things for an ATD team.

Thats why I started looking at ES scoring. There are a lot of good offensive players who just never got PP time. Claude Provost, for example, has a vs.x score of 60 something, but his ES score is above 80.

 

[Dreakmur]

False argument. I'm not playing Kesler at RW.

you may not be playing him o RW, but when he was drafted, there were a few posters who said he could play there based on a half season beside Mats Sundin.

 

[Dreakmur]

That unit was awesome, but were they even together a full season? I read recently that they were broken up by the time the playoffs started that year.

that season, Fedorov received most all star votes at center, a couple at LW and none at RW

 

[VanIslander]

Holik was a natural left winger.
He was a top prospect as such.
It wasn't until his 2nd NHL team that he was asked to shift to center to take on big guys like Lindros and Lemieux.
He owned Eric. Mario, not so much.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

I would like to add, just because a player is at a wing position doesn't mean they can't take draws. Giroux is a perfect example of this, ironically enough. Look at his FO stats the past 3 years. He's still great and still taking a lot.

So even if Madden is skating a bit at LW, he's still going to take the faceoff's. Unless the C is a markedly better draw man.

On the matter of draws, Bergeron is RH; Madden is LH.

Options.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I'll pick a mega-physical two-way defenseman in Barry Beck, D

Norris record: 6, 6, 7, 7, 9 (among the best available), despite regularly missing a few games every season due to injuries, likely related to his style of play.

6th in Hart voting in 1982

#1 defenseman on his NHL team in Time-On-Ice 7 times in 8 years

1979 NHL coach's poll: 2nd (tie) best fighter, 3rd toughest player, 4th hardest shot
1981 NHL player's poll: 1st hardest hitter

Played for Team Canada in Best-on-Best tournaments in both 1979 and 1981.

Old profile with quotes: ATD 2013 BIO Thread (quotes, stats, pics, sources, everything)

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Similar to what TDMM said, I would be fine with Madden on the LW playing limited 4th line minutes at ES in order to use him as an elite/very good PK center. That tradeoff can be worth the extra ES time you get out of one of your top 3 centers that no longer have to PK.

That being said, Madden on the LW at ES should not be touted as anything near what we think of him.

I was considering picking Madden as the LW for my own 4th line with one of my upcoming picks, because it would allow me to take Boucher off the 2nd PK unit, and with 2 strong defensive players already on my 4th line (Laprade and Nesterenko), it would still be a fine option for defensive zone situations where I'm not able to deploy my top shutdown line.

EDIT: The drawback would be that Laprade's offense would basically be wasted as neither Madden not Nesterenko are good enough to contribute, so there's basically no counter-attack threat.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

I'll pick a mega-physical two-way defenseman in Barry Beck, D

Had my concerns about how he's be as a teammate/in-the-room of a Tommy Gorman team.

Be real interesting to see what people make of him being on a Toe Blake team.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Had my concerns about how he's be as a teammate/in-the-room of a Tommy Gorman team.

Be real interesting to see what people make of him being on a Toe Blake team.

What's the issue with Blake?

 

[overpass]

That unit was awesome, but were they even together a full season? I read recently that they were broken up by the time the playoffs started that year.

They played together for much of the 1995-96 and 1996-97 seasons. Looking at who Fedorov scored his ES points with, I would say about half or a little more than half of each season, maybe 1-1.25 seasons if you combine the two.

For those two seasons combined, the five were in the top nine in league-wide plus-minus (Konstantinov was #1 and Fedorov was #2). Their even-strength on-ice GF/GA rations (R-ON) for these seasons were as follows:

Vladimir Konstantinov 2.31 (160/69)
Igor Larionov 2.16 (130/60)
Sergei Fedorov 2.11 (145/69)
Slava Fetisov 2.05 (123/60)
The other guy 1.80 (128/71)

That's dominance. And remember, this is with a 36 year old Larionov and a 38 year old Fetisov who was coming off being a healthy scratch in New Jersey.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

What's the issue with Blake?

Think Beck will respond positively to Toe Blake's approach?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Think Beck will respond positively to Toe Blake's approach?

Why wouldn't he?

I'm legit confused. Did Beck have some reputation I'm not aware of?

Also, was there any player who really responded negatively to Toe Blake? That's kind of Toe Blake's thing in the ATD, right? He was a really versatile coach who didn't alienate certain players like someone like Bowman might have?

Edit: I guess you're talking about Beck's big clash with the historically unmemorable NHL coach who clashed with at least 4 other NHLers? meh

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Here's an article on the Russian 5 where Bowman says Fedorov played Center and Larionov RW, but also says positioning wasn't important for the style they played, which was my first thought as well.

"It was amazing the way they played because nobody saw that kind of hockey,” Bowman said. “The way they used to move the puck around, especially in the neutral zone, what would happen was Vladimir Konstantinov would end up getting a breakaway. Sergei was at center, Kozlov at left wing and Igor used to line up on the right side, but their positioning wasn’t important, they all moved around.”

Here's another quote on how much they played together from the same article:

"That was a wonderful time in Detroit,” Bowman said. “I didn’t play them together all the time; I was always fearful that because it was such a unique way to play, somebody’s going to figure out (how to defend them). They scored some spectacular goals. You look at the tapes now and see what they could do. They were great players. They gave our team something that nobody else had. Anytime you can have something unique, it’s a special group.”

Scotty Bowman recalls Red Wings’ Russian Five: ‘A special group’

@overpass

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Why wouldn't he?

I'm legit confused. Did Beck have some reputation I'm not aware of?

Also, was there any player who really responded negatively to Toe Blake? That's kind of Toe Blake's thing in the ATD, right? He was a really versatile coach who didn't alienate certain players like someone like Bowman might have?

Edit: I guess you're talking about Beck's big clash with the historically unmemorable NHL coach who clashed with at least 4 other NHLers? meh

This was my confusion as well