ATD 2020 Finals - (1) NJ Swamp Devils vs (3) Pittsburgh AC

[ImporterExporter]

Why Pittsburgh Should Win:


1. Pittsburgh is Built for Playoff Hockey

• Beliveau is the best player in this series by a decent margin

• Beliveau is the greatest playoff performer by a small margin. (Smythe winner and would have at least 1 more in 56 had the award existed)

• Beliveau is the greatest leader of all time

• Keith (Smythe) is the best playoff performer by a decent margin and just marginally behind Seibert as best Dmen

• Vezina is the best overall and playoff goalie in this series. (Another who would have had at least 1 if award existed)

• Gainey was a Smythe winner in 79 and was said to have gotten consideration in 77 (Hockey Handbook)

• Olmstead/Beliveau, Gainey/Jarvis, and Shore/Lake were all real life duos on multiple title winners and they all peaked together

• Harris had an elite performance in the 1916 Cup finals (loss to Vezina)

• Jarvis and Westfall were both key secondary pieces on multiple Cup winners, locking down some of the greatest offensive stars of the day

• Kunitz seemingly raised his game far more often than not. Monster goals for Pittsburgh, none bigger than the game 7 ECF double OT winner vs Ottawa (scored both goals actually). Assisted on the Cup winner vs Nashville. Had another OT goal earlier in his career.

• Westwick is such a huge presence on the 4th line. HOF'er who was very strong in the SC challenges and playoff match ups. His record against the likes of Walsh, Phillips, Hall, Griffis, Patrick is fantastic. Absolute perfect player you want in a depth role in a Final, IMO.

• Cully Wilson was another guy who raised his game. Led Toronto with 3 goals in the 1914 Finals. Led Seattle with 4 assists in the 1917 Finals.

• Shore/Lake have the obvious chemistry and anchored the back end of a dynasty for Pete Green.

• Ivanov was best @ the 1964 Olympics

• Vezina has legendary calmness. Boucher called him the coolest man he ever met. Many sterling performances in big games. RARELY cited as being the reason Montreal lost in those games. Won the 1916 SC with a 1 goal against performance vs Portland in the decided game 5.

• Pittsburgh has the strongest playoff performer at every level (Top 6, Bottom 6, D, G)

• Green/Robinson gives Pittsburgh a decided advantage in crunch time

2. Pittsburgh is Built to Wear Down and Stifle Winger Dominant Teams like NJ

• Lafleur is going to be up against Gainey and Harris for the bulk of the series. Olmstead to a lesser degree and Kunitz rarely.

• There simply isn't going to be much room to breathe for NJ's best player. Moving him around doesn't really get him away from strong resistance.

• Not only is he up against A TON of defensive ability, he's going to get absolutely hammered in the process.

• His speed is nullified vs Gainey, Harris and the entire left side of the Pittsburgh D, Keith, Shore, Ivanov who are all great/elite skaters.

• Harris can play either side which adds value defensively w/match ups.

• Krutov is going up against Westfall and Russell for the bulk of the series and to less degree Balderis/Wilson.

• He's not going to have a physical advantage over Coulter or Lake certainly on the blue line.

• Consider Abel is already a below average C in a 40 team draft, with below average offense for a 1st line player

• Jarvis peaked as the best defensive C in the world and was among the best in the NHL for years.

• Add in Westwick and Beliveau and Pittsburgh is plenty capable of defending down the middle.

• Pittsburgh's 3rd line doesn't take penalties and 2 of the 3 players on the 4th line don't either (Kunitz/Westwick).

3. Pittsburgh is Deeper/Slightly Better at Forward

• I think the top 6 between both squads is razor thin. I have Pittsburgh ahead down the middle at 1C/2C and at 2LW.

• Pittsburgh does possess the best player on the 1st and 2nd lines IMO (Beliveau/Bowie).

• The best defensive player on both lines (Harris/Olmstead).

• Both 1st and 2nd lines of Pittsburgh has proven chemistry.

• Pittsburgh has a legendary level shutdown 3rd line that has a clearly defined role and was built for these exact moments/teams.

• More proven chemistry on the 3rd line and they can play any style of defensive hockey needed.

• Jarvis gives Pittsburgh a decided advantage in the dot and that is crucial especially special teams.

• Postseason AS player at LW, HOF at C, and 2 time postseason AS at RW on the 4th line for Pitt.

• All 3 who will make life absolutely miserable for NJ players, F and D alike.

• All 3 who have strong playoff resumes as well.

4. Green/Robinson Give Pittsburgh a Solid Coaching Advantage

• Green/Robinson simply have far more experience winning big games than Hitchcock/Johnson

• Green won multiple Cups in deciding game 5's (1920 and 1921)

• Robinson was cited as being THE reason (massive speech) New Jersey rallied from a 3-1 deficit vs Philly in 2000 en route to the Cup win.

• That Cup win, came against Ken Hitchock btw.

• Green's defensive brilliance, tactically, innovation wise, dwarfs even the defensive oriented Hitchock

• I'd clearly say that Green is a more adaptable coach.

• Pittsburgh has built a roster that Green can look up and down and see very, very few holes defensively speaking.

• Robinson brings added value to the blue line and special teams.

• His presence was incredibly impactful as noted by many former players.

5. Vezina Gives Pittsburgh a Decided Advantage in Net

• His longevity as goalie is elite

• His peak as a goalie is great

• Vezina was cited as THE reason Montreal won the Cup in 1924.

• Can strongly argue he was the best player on Montreal's 1916 Cup winner which he won with a 1 goal against performance in the deciding game 5.

• RARELY cited for playing poorly in the playoffs.

• Vezina is routinely cited and peer reviewed as unnaturally calm, impervious to excitement or pressure.

• He could move the puck (found a retro assist in a playoff game which is so damn cool given the time period) which was not common.

• Vezina was noted to be Montreal's spiritual leader and was extremely well respected.

• Vezina will lead Pittsburgh out of the tunnel and the last man out is none other than Jean Beliveau.

• Iron man

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

No of course not.

There is a reason why I'd say Harris is on a Northcott level and not above. If we treated the AS nods from those split leagues similarly to post consolidation AS nods, he'd get ranked/drafted even higher as would numerous other pre con players. Same rings true of the NHA or like leagues.

Now, with that being said, Harris does have a lot more to go off of now compared to many others of the same period. So we can get a better gauge on him vs someone who only has a few clippings or a piece in LOH/Trail of the Cup, ect.

Who else actually played LW in the PCHA? When there were only 9-16 forwards/rovers in the league at any given time, and the best ones all played center or rover....

I mean, someone has to win all-star LW.

I mean, Harris was as good as he was, and I don't think the Northcott comparison is entirely crazy, but those LW all-star nods are basically meaningless if there was no competition.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Who else actually played LW in the PCHA? When there were only 9-16 forwards/rovers in the league at any given time, and the best ones all played center or rover....

I mean, someone has to win all-star LW.

I mean, Harris was as good as he was, and I don't think the Northcott comparison is entirely crazy, but those LW all-star nods are basically meaningless if there was no competition.

Foyston in 1919.

1 Mar 1919, 18 - The Province at Newspapers.com

1919 PCHA AS Team

Harris make first team over Frank Foyston

Mickey Ion Gives Lehman, Mackay and Harris Places

First Team:

Hugh Lehman, Vancouver - Goal
Ernie Johnson, Victoria - Defence
Bobby Rowe, Seattle - Defence
Mickey Mackay, Vancouver - Rover
Bernie Morris, Seattle - Centre
Cully Wilson, Seattle – Right Wing
Fred Harris, Vancouver – Left Wing

12 Feb 1917, 6 - The Vancouver Sun at Newspapers.com

1916-17 PCHA All Stars

Harris UNANIMOUS choice at RW

You can see the spare names that he would have been chosen over. Not a shabby list.

Here you are:

The three officials of the PCHA have given out their choice of all-star teams for the season of 1916-17.
One noticeable feature si that all three have chosen Lehman as the best goal keeper and everyone of them has included Johnson of Portland on the defense and Harris at right wing.

Mickey Ion’s Pick

Goal – Lehman of Vancouver
Point – Lester Patrick of Spokane
Coverpoint – Johnson of Portland
Rover – Irvin of Portland
Centre – Morris of Seattle
Right Wing – Harris of Portland
Left Wing – Roberts of Vancouver
Spare Forward – Kerr of Spokane
Spare Defense – Walker of Seattle

George Irvine’s

Goal – Lehman of Vancouver
Point – Frank Patrick of Vancouver
Coverpoint – Johnson of Portland
Rover – Taylor of Vancouver
Centre – MacKay of Vancouver
Right Wing – Harris of Portland
Left Wing – Kerr of Spokane
Spare Forward – Roberts of Vancouver
Spare Defense – Lester Patrick of Spokane


Seaborn’s Selection

Goal – Lehman of Vancouver
Point – Johnson of Portland
Coverpoint – Lester Patrick of Spokane
Rover – MacKay of Vancouver
Centre – Irvin of Portland
Right Wing – Harris of Portland
Left Wing – Roberts of Vancouver
Spare Forward – Dunderdale of Portland
Spare Defense – Frank Patrick of Vancouver

 

[Namba 17]

True, Balderis was likely discriminated against at least somewhat, both for not being an ethnic Russian and for not buying totally into the Communist system

– Вашим мнением поинтересовались?
– Сказали так: «Желательно, если ты поедешь в ЦСКА». Ну а почему бы не поехать? ЦСКА – сильнейшая в мире команда, в которой все мечтали играть. Тем составом могли бы выиграть Кубок Стэнли! Вот это я понимаю уровень!

Did they ask your opinion?
- They said “It would be good if you came to CSKA”. [I decided] why not? CSKA is the best team in the world, everybody dreamed to play there. That roster could have won a Stanly Cup. That was a level!

– В рижском «Динамо» вы были лидером. Не опасались переходить в ЦСКА, где в то время играли Михайлов, Петров, Харламов?
– Я хотел играть вместе с ними и доказать, что я тоже игрок их уровня.

You were a leader in Dynamo Riga. Were you afraid to go to CSKA, where Mikhailov, Petrov, Kharlamov played?
- I wanted to play with them and prove that I’m a player of their level.

– Слышала, что поначалу вы жили в Москве у Бориса Петровича. Вас к нему поселили?
– Он сам пригласил. Первую неделю мы с женой жили в общежитии ЦСКА. А с Борисом мы подружились на чемпионате мира 1976 года. Наши жены были уже хорошо знакомы. И Борис сказал: «Ну живите у нас!». Вот такие простые русские люди, очень дружелюбные.

I heard, that at first you lived in Moscow in Boris Mikhailov apartment. Were you told to live there?
- He invited me by his good will. The very first week me and my wife lived in CSKA hostel. We were friends with Boris since WC 1976. And Boris said – you may live in my apartment. Russians are very easy-going and friendly people.

– И вы ушли из ЦСКА. Если бы Тихонов повёл себя по-другому, могли бы остаться?
– Да он меня ещё упрашивал остаться. В ЦСКА ко мне хорошо относились, уважали в руководстве. Тоже уговаривали остаться. Но я решил, что от Тихонова надо уходить.

And you leaved CSKA. If Tikhonov was another person, could you stand there?
Tikhonov even asked me to stay. In CSKA direction they treated me very good, they respected me. They asked me to stay as well. But I decided that I should run away from Tikhonov.

– У вас была „Волга“ с номером 19?
– Нет, получить такой номер было очень сложно. У меня был номер 37 или 74. Даже у Валерки Харламова, кажется, не было… Хотя, нет, была „Волга“ с 17-м номером. „Волгу“ мне тоже не сразу дали. Встретил Боброва: „Как дела? Устроился? Машину выдали? – Обещали, но пока нет. – Как так? Я разберусь“. И через неделю „Волга“ была.
– А Тихонов хотел все постепенно.
– Да, а Бобров сказал: „Ты тоже великий игрок“.

Did you have Volga with #19? [Volga was the most prestigious and expensive Soviet car. Authorities might give it to somebody for some merits for free. For example, any Soviet cosmonaut got Volga after returning from space. For ordinary person it was almost impossible to afford it]
- No, it was very hard to receive such a number. I had with #37 or 74. Even Kharlamov didn’t have it… Oh wait! He did have his Volga with #17. I wasn’t given Volga at the beginning. I met Bobrov [he asked]: “How are you? Are you ok? Did you get your car?” – “They promised, but not yet so far” – “WTF? I’ll settle this”. And in a week I had my car.
- Was it Tikhonov, who wanted it slow way?
- Yes, but Bobrov said: “You are the great player too”
Балдерис: всю жизнь был "белым воробьём"

— Вы все равно игрок Тихонова. Он высмотрел вас, вывел в «Динамо», потом взял с собой в ЦСКА.
— В1977 году я перешел из Риги в ЦСКА не из-за Тихонова. Мог уклониться от поездки в Москву, но самому хотелось сыграть с большими мастерами. В ЦСКА брали отличных хоккеистов, многие не сумели заиграть. Я решил попробовать себя.
— В ЦСКА у вас вышла долгая дружба вышла с Борисом Михайловым. Вы говорили, что тогда узнали, «как живут русские люди». Это было что-то новое?
— Русские очень добродушны и готовы делить с тобой все, что имеют. Помню, как первый раз отправился на сбор перед молодежным чемпионатом. Мне было семнадцать лет. Из «Внуково» надо было ехать до метро, добираться в Воскресенск. Приезжаю вечером, там что-то вроде пионерского лагеря. Пустота: ребята с тренерами отправились в «Лужники» смотреть игру «Динамо» — ЦСКА. Еле нашел каких-то дежурных по лагерю, так они меня к себе в дом пригласили: «Молодой человек, покушайте, отдохните».

- You are Tikhonov’s player. He scouted you, trained in Dynamo [Riga], took with him to the CSKA…
- In 1977 I came to CSKA not because of Tikhonov. I could reject the invitation, but I wanted, myself, to play with the best. A lot of good players couldn’t play in CSKA. I decided to test myself.
- You became a big friends with Boris Mikhailov in CSKA. You said that you saw then how Russian people live. Was it something new to you?
- Russians are very friendly and can share with you everything they have. I remember the 1st time I came to U18 national team. I was 17. From Moscow airport Vnukovo I had to go to Voskresensk. I came late evening and couldn't find anybody there: guys went with coaches to Moscow Luzniki to watch Dynamo – CSKA game. I barely found some people, who looked after the place and you know what? - they invited me to their home: “Kid, you may take some meal, take a rest”.

Три года поиграв в ЦСКА, вы сорвались домой — в самом расцвете сил. Почему Тихонов не уговорил вас остаться?
— Потому что я не стал его слушать. Мы тогда проиграли Олимпиаду. Тренера обещали не обливать игроков грязью. А потом я открыл газету и узнал, что в поражении в финальном матче от американцев виноваты Голиков и Балдерис. Я написал заявление и вернулся в Ригу. Тем более, что сразу предупреждал Тихонова: поеду в Москву только на цикл до 1980 года.

-After 3 years in CSKA you returned to your home, in the middle of your prime. Why Tikhonov didn’t persuade you to stay?
- Because I didn’t listen to him. We lost OG. Coaches promised not to through us under the bus. And then I opened a newspaper and read that it was Golikov' and Balderis' fault. I came back to Riga. I told to Tikhonov that I came to Moscow till 1980 anyway.
Хельмут Балдерис: Интервью после Матча Легенд - 2011 (Рига)

- ЦСКА в те времена являлся командой, где играли все звезды советского хоккея. Выступать в таком клубе было мечтой. В том числе и для меня.

These days CSKA was a team where all stars of the Soviet hockey played. To play for such a team was a dream. For me too.
Хельмут Балдерис: "В рижском "Динамо" повели себя неприлично по отношению ко мне"

- Вам же приходилось выходить на лед и против рижского "Динамо". Не было какой-то ломки?
- Нет. Я считаю, ты должен играть за команду, в майке которой вышел на лед. Все равно, хоть ты за Россию играешь, за Латвию или за канадцев. Вышел играть ты должен победить. Сделать свое дело и победить. Я всегда хотел забивать. Моя цель была - забить гол, отдать пас. И когда против рижан выходил - то же самое.

-You had to play against Dymano Riga. Wasn’t it hard?
-No. I think, that you have to play for the team you put your shirt on. Doesn’t matter if you play for Russia or Latvia or Canada. You have to always play to win. To make your job and to win. I always wanted to score. My aim was to score a goal, to make an assist. And when I played against Riga – the same.
Хельмут Балдерис: Виноватым всегда делали меня

 

[Theokritos]

Yeah, I never really got the notion that Balderis was treated unfairly because he was Latvian. IMO the other point (that he didn't totally buy into the Communist system) is much more valid. Good work posing those interviews @Namba 17.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

1. Pittsburgh is Built for Playoff Hockey

After Beliveau, your top 6 isn't exactly filled with big game studs.

Smokey Harris is okay I guess, though he was part of that Cyclone Taylor/Hugh Lehman Millionaires team that probably underperformed.

Abel and Krutov have much better big game resumes than Bert Olmstead and Helmet Balderis

Bert Olmstead: 8 goals, 34 assists, 42 points in 86 playoff games for the high-powered Habs. 0.49 points-per-game, good for 8th on his team during his tenure with them, barely above defensive specialists Floyd Curry (0.46) and Ken Mosdell (0.40): Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com. And yes, Olmstead played the power play for the first few years of that time span, before the younger Dickie Moore had established himself. Olmstead brought a lot of things to the table, but he did not score at a high level in the playoffs.

Compare to Sid Abel who played well enough in 1943 to be awarded THN's version of the Retro Smythe, and then led the NHL in goals in 1950 for his 2nd Cup, this time with Gordie Howe in the hospital.

Balderis? International tournaments were basically the Soviet equivalent to the playoffs. 6-1 advantage to Krutov in World Championship All-Star nods. 2-1 advantage to Krutov in World Championship best player awards. And Krutov was also all-star at the 1987 Canada Cup.

Russell Bowie and Blair Russell are complete unknowns in big games

Russell Bowie scored 1 goal in 4 career "playoff" games for a player who averaged 3 goals per game in the regular season. That's 1 goal in 2 games in the 1899 Stanley Cup challenge and 0 goals in 2 games in the 1903 CAHL playoffs (CAHL didn't have playoffs every year). I don't count the IPAHU when adding up playoff totals because it was not a competitive league. (neither does wikipedia: Russell Bowie - Wikipedia). The freaking "playoffs" (meaning Stanley Cup challenges) are the entire reason that Frank McGee was considered the best player in the world in some circles, despite Russell Bowie having more impressive regular seasons!

As far as I can tell, Blair Russell also scored 0 goals in the 2 game 1903 CAHL playoffs, which looks to be the only "playoffs" he ever played in.

And no, that isn't a just a function of era.

• Most career goals in Stanley Cup challenges: Frank McGee (63), Frank Foyston (37), Alf Smith (36).
• Most career goals in "competitive" Stanley Cup challenges*: Foyston (27), Lalonde (27), Tommy Phillips (22), Frank McGee (21)
• Russell Bowie and Blair Russell scored 1 Cup Challenge goal between them.

*As defined by @seventieslord's definition that I copied into this old Tommy Phillips bio

I don't think Bowie or Russell were bad playoff players per se, just totally unproven. Yes, I believe a lot of that was due to their steadfast commitment to the virtues of not getting paid or something, but they are totally unproven in big games.

Smokey Harris is okay I guess, though he was part of that Cyclone Taylor/Hugh Lehman Millionaires team that probably underperformed.

A few bottom 6 playoff performers on NJ

So Importer Exporter listed the playoff accomplishments of his team, but didn't mention any of mine. Anyway, here are a few notable playoff accomplishments of my bottom 6:

• Cooney Weiland led the playoffs in scoring 2 years in a row - 1930 (tied for 1st), and 1931.
• Tony Leswick was a top defensive forward and penalty killer on a dynasty himself.
• Tim Kerr led the playoffs in power play goals twice (1987, 1989), he was leading playoff scorer on the 1989 Cup finalist Flyers, and is 19th all-time in career playoff goals-per-game (obviously partly a function of era, but still impressive I think).
• Ab McDonald - led the 1970 Stanley Cup finalist Blues in scoring

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Special Teams: Wash


One big update:

• Pittsburgh will be taking Keith off the 2nd team PP and putting him on the 1st team PK.

• He's rested after an extra 2 days off and lighter workload against Baltimore and I want the best Pitt defender, who is strong on the kill btw, to help anchor the 1st unit with Coulter. Biggest clutch performers need to be put in the biggest spots.

• Keith is also a strong shot blocker which is huge on the kill especially.

• Changing up a look is always a good thing when talking about keeping the other team on their toes

• Pittsburgh has a stronger PK, as usual, due to the elite F's top to bottom, which is critical in this particular series.

• Weiland/Leswick is a strong pair but it's simply on the outside looking in when comparing to Jarvis/Westfall

• NJ's top PP unit has a weaker defensive player in Hollet as the only D man on the 1st squad. Jarvis/Westfall/Gainey/Harris/Russell/Westwick etc is ready to feast on that set up.

Westfall's posteason #'s

• Led the playoffs in SH goals 4 different times

• 8 shorties in 95 games is a great scoring rate and given how NJ is structured and who Pitt has on the kill, Westfall should get a few breaks going the other way.

View attachment 349702

That list is the top 15 F's of all time in terms of PK usage (since 1960)

• Westfall is the greatest PK forward of all time IMO.

• He played over 1200 games, had a ridiculous 60% usage and his teams killed penalties at 16% above the league average

• And he averaged 5 SHP/82 games an elite figure

• Jarvis is just barely below Westfall in usage with even better success rate at 21% above the league average

• Pittsburgh has a pair of F's that are legendary PK'ers. They can skate very well, log impressive minutes, play an elite positional game and Westfall in particular is quite dangerous going on the other way. This was also an added benefit of having such elite PK forwards. Pitt knew it would likely be trailing most playoff matchups when it came to PP Dmen. Having an elite stable of forwards puts an awful lot of pressure on the blueliners of NJ.

• Jarvis is arguably the greatest man in the dot ever.

• Gaining possession in crucial moments favors Pittsburgh

View attachment 349703


Pittsburgh has a clear advantage on the 2nd unit as well with Gainey-Westwick/Harris/Russell/Olmstead etc.

• Starshinov is a stong PK'er but again, behind Gainey easily and March doesn't read like a Harris or Russell level defensive player.

• Pittsburgh can roll out 3 or 4 different combinations. We've got at least 7 capable PK F's so the unit can remain fresh.

The PK defensemen are a wash IMO.

• Keith-Coulter is every bit as strong as Stanley-Seibert and IMO better.

• Consider:

• Duncan Keith has killed a larger % of penalties than Stanley did.

• Now these figures cut off stats before 1960 so I'm not sure how much more or less Stanley would have moved on this chart (his peak started in 1960) but as it stands there is a 5% gap and 9% gap favoring Keith in terms of effectiveness. Do the 1950's bridge that gap?

Regular Season Usage

View attachment 349710

View attachment 349709

Playoff usage

View attachment 349711

• I think Art Coulter is an elite defensive player in his own end. He possesses all the traits to be elite in this role and most of the teams he anchored were dominant defensive units.

• There are scouting reports that literally compare he and Seibert head to head and it is pretty evident that Coulter, at least in 1936 was thought of as a superior player defensively.

• Coulter is a large man, very strong/rough so Mr Tim Kerr is going to have his hands full IMO. I like Coulter's chances of keeping Vezina clear given he's a lot better player all time than Kerr.

• Lynn Patrick talking about Coulter protecting the netminder

View attachment 349713


As I've said from the beginning I think Girardi is easily one of the best (top 10) defensemen on the PK in the last 10+ seasons which should make him a very strong 2nd unit presence with a clear ability to play up on the top unit if need be.

• The usage is there. The kill rate is there. And he wasn't just a 18 minute a night guy either. For years he was playing top pairing minutes with McDonagh.

• He's playing #6 minutes so he'll be fresher for these turns on the kill.

• He's an elite shocker blocker all time considering one can argue him the best (volume or per game) over the last 10+ seasons.

• Girardi's killed 52% of his team’s penalties over his career at 16% above the league average. Girardi is 7th in the past decade in terms of SHTOI

• DG is 2nd all time in shot blocks since it started being traced in 05-06 with his blocks per game better than Seabrook even though BS is just ahead of him in raw total

• Anyone else notice that 3 of the top shot blockers of the cap era are on Pittsburgh's roster here? (Keith, Girardi, Orpik)

• That's coupled with Ivanov who was noted as strong in this area for the Soviets

• Vezina is going to be pleased with so much rubber not finding its way to the net

I'd wager Lutchenko the 2nd best PK'er on either unit just behind Girardi.

Fred Lake will jump on the 2nd unit with Girardi and I think he and Doug Young are probably washes in this role. Lake was a really strong defensive player as a F and then D and Young had a reputation as a strong stay at home player himself. Nothing really to judge them on as far as actual presence on a kill so I think it best to just make them even.

I think NJ comes out a little bit ahead on the PP but their top unit could be in trouble with only Hollet up to and him facing the likes of Gainey, Jarvis, Westfall, Harris, etc.

• Beliveau is the best PP presence here.

• Beliveau is the best goal scorer

• Lafleur the best play maker

• Bowie is on the level of Krutov, Kerr or Abel here and is IMO neck and neck with Krutov/Kerr as the 2nd best goal scorer on either unit

• Olmstead's peak PP numbers came with Beliveau

• I think NJ has an advantage at F given they are going with 4 but Pittsburgh has a stronger presence on the blue line given we actually have 2 long term defensemen who possess strong offensive abilities both passing and shooting.

• Ivanov was noted to have a very heavy shot with pin point and crisp passes

• I also like that both of Pittsburgh's top blue liners are very strong skaters (Ivanov/Shore)

• Less chances of pucks going the other way without intervention

• NJ has a stronger group of 2nd PP players though Balderis is the best offensive player of anyone on either unit

• I think Pittsburgh has a better overall PK group and NJ the better PP collection. Very close all things considered IMO.

Yes, your PK forwards are awesome. You sacrificed scoring depth to get these guys, but here is where they shine.

To go on more about NJ's stronger PP:

1. Flash Hollett isn't an elite pointman, but he's better than anyone on Pittsburgh.

Your roster post has Ivanov of all people playing the whole PP, which is insane, very few players ever come close to playing the whole PP, and those who do are among the best PP pointmen in the league, something that Ivanov isn't even remotely close to being - I wouldn't want someone like Ivanov on my first PP at all, and he's playing your entire thing? A tired AF Ivanov playing point against fresh Abel-Krutov screams short-handed goal.

And that's with Keith already on the 2nd unit PP in the roster post, and now you're taking him off? Who replaces him on the 2nd PP?

Is the plan really to have Ivanov and Lake play the full 2 minutes every time?

2. The forwards on NJ's second unit are quite a bit better. Westwick and Harris are good all-round players, but their offense is pretty weak for PP guys. This is where Pittsburgh's lack of scoring depth hurts them. IE says Balderis is the best forward on either team's 2nd unit. If he is, it isn't by much. Is he really all that much better on the PP than Starshinov, whose skillset (lots of goals from in tight) seems tailor-made for the PP? Also remember that Dreakmur's VsX-adjustment-for-missed-war-years would give Bauer a score of 82.7 - that's got to be sniffing at Balderis' heals.

________________

I think NJ has better special teams overall because there are no major weaknesses. Pittsburgh does have the better PK because of their forwards. But NJ's PK, while not as good as Pittsburgh's, is still pretty good, and I actually prefer NJ's PK defenseman (Seibert's physical strength will help a lot against Beliveau).

Right now, Pittsburgh's pointmen are problematic, and they really only have 4 forwards deserving of full-time PP duty.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Yes, your PK forwards are awesome. You sacrificed scoring depth to get these guys, but here is where they shine.

To go on more about NJ's stronger PP:

1. Flash Hollett isn't an elite pointman, but he's better than anyone on Pittsburgh.

Your roster post has Ivanov of all people playing the whole PP, which is insane, very few players ever come close to playing the whole PP, and those who do are among the best PP pointmen in the league, something that Ivanov isn't even remotely close to being - I wouldn't want someone like Ivanov on my first PP at all, and he's playing your entire thing? A tired AF Ivanov playing point against fresh Abel-Krutov screams short-handed goal.

And that's with Keith already on the 2nd unit PP in the roster post, and now you're taking him off? Who replaces him on the 2nd PP?

Is the plan really to have Ivanov and Lake play the full 2 minutes every time?

2. The forwards on NJ's second unit are quite a bit better. Westwick and Harris are good all-round players, but their offense is pretty weak for PP guys. This is where Pittsburgh's lack of scoring depth hurts them. IE says Balderis is the best forward on either team's 2nd unit. If he is, it isn't by much. Is he really all that much better on the PP than Starshinov, whose skillset (lots of goals from in tight) seems tailor-made for the PP? Also remember that Dreakmur's VsX-adjustment-for-missed-war-years would give Bauer a score of 82.7 - that's got to be sniffing at Balderis' heals.

________________

I think NJ has better special teams overall because there are no major weaknesses. Pittsburgh does have the better PK because of their forwards. But NJ's PK, while not as good as Pittsburgh's, is still pretty good, and I actually prefer NJ's PK defenseman (Seibert's physical strength will help a lot against Beliveau).

Right now, Pittsburgh's pointmen are problematic, and they really only have 4 forwards deserving of full-time PP duty.

• Flash Hollett as the only man up top against Jarvis, Westfall, Gainey, Harris is the most problematic aspect to the entire ST equation IMO.

• Hollett is overrated as some of his value comes at F and he wasn't known as anything close to an air tight defensive player. And he's all by his lonesome?

• Ed Westfall has as many SHORT HANDED goals as Hollet has overall goals in the playoffs (8). Yeah, 16 game difference but we're talking shorties only vs overall.

• I absolutely think the advantage in scoring while short handed favors Pittsburgh specifically because of the elite F's.

• Ivanov doesn't have to play the entire time. I can get him off with 30 seconds and put Keith, every other time if need be. Westfall played a good bit of D over his career so he's not adverse to handling 20-30 seconds up top. Beliveau can rotate out and play the point and did so for Dick Irvin early in his career, because of his leagues hardest shot. That frees up a Dman to get off the 1st unit and rest for 30. Also keeps the NJ PK from getting into a set rhythm.

• And Ivanov is a #5, playing #5 minutes. That's the difference between using a top pairing Dman on ST's and a bottom pairing one. Ivanov isn't being taxed anywhere near what a Seibert or Stanley are, your 2nd team point men. And Ivanov was a strong offensive player with noted abilities both w/a heavy shot and more importantly pinpoint passing.

1st Unit PP

Bowie-Beliveau-Olmstead
Ivanov-Shore

2nd Unit PP

Harris-Wilson-Balderis
Ivanov-Lake

1st Unit PK

Jarvis-Westfall
Keith-Coulter

2nd Unit PK

Gainey-Westwick/Harris/Russell/Olmstead**
Lake-Girardi

• **The biggest thing to note for Pittsburgh is we are maximizing our best players by getting them on the ice more at ES which is where the bulk of playoff hockey is played at.

• Having so many capable PK forwards means Green/Robinson can continually rotate them. Gainey can easily move up to play with Jarvis. Westfall can move up or down.

• Pittsburgh has 7 legendary (Westfall, Jarvis, Gainey), to great (Harris, Russell), to above average (Westwick/OImstead) PK forwards.

• Given they are the most taxed player on ST's I wanted to ensure Pittsburgh not only had the best but also ability to rotate players, thus reducing stress.

• Neither of my top pairing Dmen are playing on both special teams units (unlike NJ). Keith-Coulter are playing the #1PK and that's it. Keith might have to jump on the 2nd PP unit once or twice but over the course of 7 possible games, that's nothing considering Keith's history of logging massive minutes in the playoffs. I've posted those numbers in previous threads and you can see it on my roster page.

• Keith won the 2015 Conny Smythe logging 31 minutes a night over 23 games. His overall TOI/game, exceeds Nick Lidstrom career wise. His ES usage is insane in the playoffs.

• Keith is built precisely for these moments and again, was taxed less in the last series (Orpik) and has an extra 2 days of rest relative to the last time NJ would have played.

• Keith is shown to have played for time on the kill than Stanley both regular and postseasons. His teams killed 5% above the league average and he's a strong shot blocker.

• Coulter is the best player in their own end in this series IMO. He brings huge size, strength, and a style that screams elite PK Dman. And the teams he played on often improved defensively and then fell off considerably when he left. I've already posted plenty of evidence on this through the playoffs.

• Stanley-Seibert are going to be taxed more given they are playing top pairing minutes and on both ST units.

• Another reason why I think the top pairings are a straight wash.

• Pittsburgh has vastly better PK forwards and every bit as good of Dmen especially if one actually credits my research on Girardi to show his elite shot blocking that can't be duplicated by anyone on either side.

• I don't think the PK units are close at all to be honest.

• His PK usage is elite and the kill rates of the teams he played so often for are elite. Being elite in those 2 categories, over a decade long period of time means he he should be treated as a luxury on a 2nd unit.

• And again, ES usage comes into play. Girardi is playing #6 minutes. He's already a very strong PK'er and he's going to be a lot fresher than any of NJ's Dmen outside of Young.

• Lake seems like at least an above average player as a 2nd unit player given his own proclivities, size and strength.

• Shot blocking is a big factor in this series. Pittsburgh D are very accomplished here.

• Pittsburgh has a bottom 6 that features 5 players who will almost never take a penalty. Blair Russell was arguably the cleanest player of his day, along with Westwick. Heck, even Olmstead who played a very heavy game, only finished top 10 in PIM's twice (7th and 9th).

• Cully Wilson will be in the box a handful of times, no doubt, but he's precisely the type of player who is a HOF level pest/goon. Basically anyone he takes off the ice with him (Leswick, Krutov, Seibert) etc is a win for Pittsburgh.

• And he was plenty capable of knocking superstars out of the game without the goon stuff (Morenz).

22 Jan 1954
Gazette

• Beliveau on the Point

• Ironic that Leswick's name is here.

• "Tony (Leswick) also tried to bodycheck Jean Beliveau and nearly belted himself out"

19 Dec 1952
Gazette:

• Beliveau and Boom Boom on the points

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

• Flash Hollett as the only man up top against Jarvis, Westfall, Gainey, Harris is the most problematic aspect to the entire ST equation IMO.

I don't understand what the problem is - those guys aren't real big SHG threats.

When NJ is defending a lead late in game, I can see a PP setup something like this:

Krutov - Kerr (he's a C/RW) - Lafleur - Pervukhin - Hollett
Abel - Starshinov - Bauer - Stanley - Seibert

Pervuhkin (3rd all-time leading Soviet scorer from D) isn't a great 1st unit guy, so he's not listed there in the main roster post, but there's a reason my ice-time chart gives him 1 PP minute per game.

• Ed Westfall has as many SHORT HANDED goals as Hollet has overall goals in the playoffs (8). Yeah, 16 game difference but we're talking shorties only vs overall.

I have to hand it to you - it's quite the accomplishment to use statistics in a deceptive way twice in one sentence:

• Comparing raw stats between a pre-expansion player and a 1970s player?
• Using goals for a defenseman rather than points?

That's not even getting into the fact that Westfall was killing penalties with Bobby Orr

Anyway, Hollett:

• Led the NHL playoffs in points-by-a-defenseman 3 times (1941, 1943, 1945). And yes, he was a full-time defenseman in the 1941 playoffs - 1940s Boston used 2 defense pairings, and they have exactly 4 defenseman who played games in the playoffs that year; 1940-41 Boston Bruins Roster and Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com. It appears Hollett played mostly forward in 1939 though, based on Boston having 5 dressed "defensemen" for all the games. So I'm not including 1939, which his old profile used to count as a 4th lead in playoff points by defensemen.
• Was top 5 in playoff points among ALL players all three of those years, while playing as a defensemen (3rd(1943), 4th(1941), 5th(1945)).

• I absolutely think the advantage in scoring while short handed favors Pittsburgh specifically because of the elite F's.

Come on, you really think your forwards are more dangerous shorthanded than Starshinov, Abel, and especially the lightning fast Krutov? Krutov was a terror shorthanded in the Canada Cups.

Your forwards are great penalty killers because their are great at preventing goals against. They are not big time SHG threats.

• Ivanov doesn't have to play the entire time. I can get him off with 30 seconds and put Keith, every other time if need be. Westfall played a good bit of D over his career so he's not adverse to handling 20-30 seconds up top. Beliveau can rotate out and play the point and did so for Dick Irvin early in his career, because of his leagues hardest shot. That frees up a Dman to get off the 1st unit and rest for 30. Also keeps the NJ PK from getting into a set rhythm.

Beliveau on the point? The fact that rookie Beliveau was tried out on the point is a cool trivia thing that I honestly had no idea about. However, moving him from his office in front of the net instantly makes your PP forwards terrible. Or do you think he can somehow play point on the 2nd wave after playing the most tiring role on the 1st unit up front?

• And Ivanov is a #5, playing #5 minutes. That's the difference between using a top pairing Dman on ST's and a bottom pairing one. Ivanov isn't being taxed anywhere near what a Seibert or Stanley are, your 2nd team point men. And Ivanov was a strong offensive player with noted abilities both w/a heavy shot and more importantly pinpoint passing.

It still doesen't mean he won't be dead tired at the end of a full two minute shift. I see Abel-Krutov licking their lips....

1st Unit PP

Bowie-Beliveau-Olmstead
Ivanov-Shore

2nd Unit PP

Harris-Wilson-Balderis
Ivanov-Lake

So now Shore and Lake are both playing on the PP? What credentials do they have for that? Wasn't Lake just a defensive defenseman? How was their scoring compared to other defensemen of their era? So doubling down on Ivanov playing the full 2 minutes more often than not - considering he's barely better than Pervukhin, if at all, it's a pretty big weakness.

To be honest, I think Keith would probably be your best pointman.

• Having so many capable PK forwards means Green/Robinson can continually rotate them. Gainey can easily move up to play with Jarvis. Westfall can move up or down.

The same is true for NJ. We don't even have Mike Ricci playing a regular PK shift, and he easily could!

Of course, those 3 guys you have are awesome PKers (NJ only has 1 PK forward of that calibre in Tony Leswick), but you do not have any advantage in PK depth.

• Neither of my top pairing Dmen are playing on both special teams units (unlike NJ). Keith-Coulter are playing the #1PK and that's it. Keith might have to jump on the 2nd PP unit once or twice but over the course of 7 possible games, that's nothing considering Keith's history of logging massive minutes in the playoffs. I've posted those numbers in previous threads and you can see it on my roster page.

I think it's a major strength that NJ ends an unsuccessful PP with our top pairing on the ice. I could have used Pervukhin on the 2nd wave of the PP, but I really like the fact that Stanley-Seibert can settle things down if my PP is unsuccessful.

• Stanley-Seibert are going to be taxed more given they are playing top pairing minutes and on both ST units.

• Another reason why I think the top pairings are a straight wash.

2 of 7 minutes on the PP is "top minutes" now? They are doing mop up duty on the PP.

You wish our top pairings were a wash...

 

[ImporterExporter]

After Beliveau, your top 6 isn't exactly filled with big game studs.

Smokey Harris is okay I guess, though he was part of that Cyclone Taylor/Hugh Lehman Millionaires team that probably underperformed.

Abel and Krutov have much better big game resumes than Bert Olmstead and Helmet Balderis

Bert Olmstead: 8 goals, 34 assists, 42 points in 86 playoff games for the high-powered Habs. 0.49 points-per-game, good for 8th on his team during his tenure with them, barely above defensive specialists Floyd Curry (0.46) and Ken Mosdell (0.40): Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com. And yes, Olmstead played the power play for the first few years of that time span, before the younger Dickie Moore had established himself. Olmstead brought a lot of things to the table, but he did not score at a high level in the playoffs.

Compare to Sid Abel who played well enough in 1943 to be awarded THN's version of the Retro Smythe, and then led the NHL in goals in 1950 for his 2nd Cup, this time with Gordie Howe in the hospital.

Balderis? International tournaments were basically the Soviet equivalent to the playoffs. 6-1 advantage to Krutov in World Championship All-Star nods. 2-1 advantage to Krutov in World Championship best player awards. And Krutov was also all-star at the 1987 Canada Cup.

Russell Bowie and Blair Russell are complete unknowns in big games

Russell Bowie scored 1 goal in 4 career "playoff" games for a player who averaged 3 goals per game in the regular season. That's 1 goal in 2 games in the 1899 Stanley Cup challenge and 0 goals in 2 games in the 1903 CAHL playoffs (CAHL didn't have playoffs every year). I don't count the IPAHU when adding up playoff totals because it was not a competitive league. (neither does wikipedia: Russell Bowie - Wikipedia). The freaking "playoffs" (meaning Stanley Cup challenges) are the entire reason that Frank McGee was considered the best player in the world in some circles, despite Russell Bowie having more impressive regular seasons!

As far as I can tell, Blair Russell also scored 0 goals in the 2 game 1903 CAHL playoffs, which looks to be the only "playoffs" he ever played in.

And no, that isn't a just a function of era.

• Most career goals in Stanley Cup challenges: Frank McGee (63), Frank Foyston (37), Alf Smith (36).
• Most career goals in "competitive" Stanley Cup challenges*: Foyston (27), Lalonde (27), Tommy Phillips (22), Frank McGee (21)
• Russell Bowie and Blair Russell scored 1 Cup Challenge goal between them.

*As defined by @seventieslord's definition that I copied into this old Tommy Phillips bio

I don't think Bowie or Russell were bad playoff players per se, just totally unproven. Yes, I believe a lot of that was due to their steadfast commitment to the virtues of not getting paid or something, but they are totally unproven in big games.

Smokey Harris is okay I guess, though he was part of that Cyclone Taylor/Hugh Lehman Millionaires team that probably underperformed.

A few bottom 6 playoff performers on NJ

So Importer Exporter listed the playoff accomplishments of his team, but didn't mention any of mine. Anyway, here are a few notable playoff accomplishments of my bottom 6:

• Cooney Weiland led the playoffs in scoring 2 years in a row - 1930 (tied for 1st), and 1931.
• Tony Leswick was a top defensive forward and penalty killer on a dynasty himself.
• Tim Kerr led the playoffs in power play goals twice (1987, 1989), he was leading playoff scorer on the 1989 Cup finalist Flyers, and is 19th all-time in career playoff goals-per-game (obviously partly a function of era, but still impressive I think).
• Ab McDonald - led the 1970 Stanley Cup finalist Blues in scoring

Agree completely on Bowie/Russell.

I just consider them average because to be fair, they never really got a chance to show their mettle in those situations. The one instance they were up against the dynasty Silver Seven.

I'm not going to punish them too harshly over 2 games against the overwhelming best team in pro hockey at the time. The Vics pretty much were a 2 man team each year.

It's also important to note that in 1905 Bowie/Russell did lead the Vics to a league best 9-1 record with a surprising league best 32 goals against, which was tops by 13.

But as you can also see below they never got to play a SC Challenge:

1905 CAHL Standings:

• No doubt Olmstead is the weakest playoff scorer of either 1st line.

• But as you said, he brings to much to the table beyond scoring which is something I'm trying to push hard and be consistent with.

• And to be fair, Beliveau AND Olmstead both saw their scoring numbers jump during their 3 straight Cup runs together. 56, 57, 58. Their legendary performance (combined 18 points in 10 games vs a prime Howe, Kelly, and company is a major bullet point)

• That's the proven chemistry vs likely chemistry that I've been talking about.

• Same with Gainey-Jarivs.

• Look at their offensive production together as often checking line players who got almost n0 PP time.

• Gainey in particular was noted to raise his offensive game in the biggest moments. You can see this in a few playoff runs (78 and 79 especially).

• Add in Westfall who during the same period of time, the arse end of his career, and he was still a 0.50 PPG guy.

• Combined they won 11 titles so experience and playoff performance is way above the bar

Bob Gainey Playoff Totals 1975-76 through 1979-80: (playing with Jarvis often at ES/PK)

• 35 of 36 points were ES/SH

• Won 1979 Smythe scoring 16 points in 16 games, all 6 goals at ES.

• Was in running for 77 Smythe as well per Hockey Handbook

Ed Westfall Playoff Totals: 1975-76 through 1979-80: (Note these were Westfalls LAST 4 seasons aged 35-38)

• 13 of 14 points were ES/SH

Doug Jarvis Playoff Totals: 1975-76 through 1979-80 (w/ Gainey):

• 28 of 30 points were ES/SH (had 2 PP points go figure haha)

That's a sizable sample of 3 careers that overlapped well and are all working together here in Pitt.

• 80 points

• 28 goals

• 52 assists

• Ridiculous 76 ES/SH points

• 160 games

• +31 while all of these players would have been going up against the creme de la creme of offensive stars of the mid to late 70's in playoff hockey

• To be clear, I'm not saying that Gainey/compnay are going to go bonkers and score a slew of points.

• They are playing a primarily checking role with the goal to limit the top scoring wingers of NJ as much as possible. Lean on them as much as possible. Which again, I think is a big reason Pittsburgh should prevail in this series.

• But playing together, you can see that Gainey and Jarvis posted strong secondary scoring numbers.

• Throw in Westfall who raised his game in the playoffs more than once and I think this unit will chip in.

• It's literally historically accurate, especially in the postseason.

• And they're able to do that while being a legendary shut down line.

• Kunitz, Westwick, Wilson are all very strong playoff performers (especially for bottom 6 F's) with numerous runs you can point to and know they're going to be way above the bar in their role here and critical moments.

• These men were on 9 SC winners and all had big impacts.

• Depth of F is precisely why I think Pittsburgh enjoys a slight advantage overall at F

Kunitz Double OT winner in game 7, 2017 ECF

• As I said before, such a smart player, finds the soft spot giving himself just enough room to shoot, waits for the pass, and scores one of the biggest goals in Pens history.

Kunitz puck retrieval, patience, nice pass and assist on Cup winning goal, game 6, 2017

• Notice how Kunitz doesn't rush the pass, he waits for the opening and slides a nice crisp tape to tape pass, Schultz gets it on net and the rest is history.

Kunitz GW goal in OT vs NYI in 2013 1st round




Westwick in SC Challenges:
*did not include Dawson City Challenge as that was incredibly lopsided


Vs Winnpipeg - Dec 30 1903, Jan 1 and 4th 1904

Ottawa wins 3 game series 2-1

Bullet Joe Hall opposite at rover

Westwick scores 5 goals

Hall scores 1 goal


Vs Toronto - Feb 23 and 25, 1904

Ottawa wins both games 6-3 and 11-2

Tommy Phillips opposite at rover

Westwick scores 1 goal

Phillips scores 1 goal

Vs Wanderers - Mar 2 , 1904


Game 1 ended in 5-5 tied (Wanderers refused to play a 2nd game and quit challenge)

Westwick scores 2 goals

Ken Mallen scores 1 goal

Vs Brandon - Mar 9 and 11, 1904


Ottawa wins both games 6-3 and 9-3

Westwick scores 1 goal

George Smith scores 1 goal


Vs Rat Portage - Mar 7, 9 and 11th, 1905

Ottawa loses game 1, 9-3.

Wins games 2 and 3, 4-2 and 5-4

Si Griffis opposite at rover

Griffis scores 3 goals in game 1

Westwick scores 1 goal in game 1

Griffis scores 1 in game 2 and 0 in game 3

Westwick with 1 goal in game 2


Vs Queens University - Feb 27 and 28th, 1906

Ottawa wins both games, 16-7 and 12-7

Marty Walsh opposite at rover

Westwick scores 4 goals in game 1
Walsh scors 2 goals in game 1

Westwick scores 2 goals in game 2
Walsh scores 1 goal in game 2


Vs Smith Falls - Mar 6 and 8th, 1906

Ottawa wins both games, 6-5 and 8-2

Westwick scores 2 goals in game 2

Ross (game 1) /Fraser (game 2) score 1 goal


Vs Montreal Wanderers - Mar 14 and 17th, 1906(ECAHA playoff series)

Ottawa looses game 1, 9-1 and win game 2, 9-3 (Wanderers annex title on goal differential)

Lester Patrick opposite at rover

Patrick scores 1 goal in game 1

Westwick scores 0

Patrick scores 3 goals in game 2

Westwick scores 1 goal


Totals:

Ottawa goes 13-3-1

Westwick 20 goals in 17 games

All opposing rovers score 16 goals in 17 games
(includes Joe Hall, Tommy Phillips, Si Griffis, Lester Patrick, Marty Waslsh)


Cully Wilson's proclivity for raising his game well above the bar in SCF's/playoffs:

• Led Toronto with 3 goals in the 1914 Finals (win)

• Led Seattle with 4 assists in the 1917 Finals (win)

• Scored 1 goal, 3 assists in 5 games in the suspended 1919 Finals

Duncan Keith is Overwhelming Best Playoff Dman

• Art Coulter Captained the leagues best defensive team, Rangers, to the 1940 title and was a key cog on the blue line when the Hawks won in 1934.

• Shore/Lake were probably the best defensive pairing during their NHA dominance together to multiple SC Challenge victors and first places finishes in the NHA.

• They are cited more than a few times for being major factors in Challenge wins (bio).

• Ivanov was a best D/F (@Theokritos can confirm which is ended up being) at the 64 Olympics.

Vezina is clearly the best G and Playoff G

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Vezina is clearly the best G and Playoff G

obviously Vezina is better overall than Hainsworth - I have Vezina 10th all-time, and Hainsworth somewhere around 20th. (Looking at the HOH goalies list, gun to my head, I rank Hainsworth 21st, but there are a few guys around 20 who are quite close. Edit: or 22nd because apparently i'm a bigger fan of Lehman than anyone else).

As a playoff goalie? I'm not so sure. Both have 2 Cups, and Hainsworth is the one with a Retro Conn Smythe.

 

[ImporterExporter]

obviously Vezina is better overall than Hainsworth - I have Vezina 10th all-time, and Hainsworth somewhere around 20th. (Looking at the HOH goalies list, gun to my head, I rank Hainsworth 21st, but there are a few guys around 20 who are quite close).

As a playoff goalie? I'm not so sure. Both have 2 Cups, and Hainsworth is the one with a Retro Conn Smythe.

• Vezina (as cited multiple times previously) was cited as being THE reason Montreal won the Cup in 1924. Even the Calgary papers confirmed this. That's a Smythe in my book.

• Vezina had a 64 out 65 save performance in a 2-1, regulation win in 1923 NHA playoff game against the dynasty Senators. I've posted that in the Dishing the Dirt and HoH sections. Sounds like something Hasek pulled off in the 98 Olympics or Buffalo years. And to be pair some of those shots were probably not on net but the Ottawa paper (secondary source) said 82 saves so one way or another it would have been a lot. Even cutting the # by 50% is still incredible.

• Vezina can be strongly argued as the Symthe winner in 1916 vs Portland.

• He gave up 13 goals in 5 games, which is a 2.60 GAA, and in the deciding game 5 that won the Cup? Gave up 1 goal in a 2-1 win. I will gladly post what the regular season GAA averages were during this season in both leagues if asked. They were higher, considerably so.

• That's where I'd put my money.

• And as I looked up and cited every SCF final game he played in, he was very rarely cited as playing poorly, far more often named outstanding, sterling, etc, etc.

• Even in losses there are multiple games where he was stills cited as being strong.

• And he's the coolest man on earth. I like that in a netminder in a crucial series.

 

[Theokritos]

• Ivanov was a best D/F (@Theokritos can confirm which is ended up being) at the 64 Olympics.

He played defence and the Soviets thought he was the best player on their 1964 Olympics team overall. Which is an achievement Vasili Pervukhin or Vladimir Lutchenko didn't ever come close to. But then, the question is how much weight we want to attach to 1964 Soviet achievements vs 1974 or 1984 Soviet achievements.

 

[ImporterExporter]

He played defence and the Soviets thought he was the best player on their 1964 Olympics team overall. Which is an achievement Vasili Pervukhin or Vladimir Lutchenko didn't ever come close to. But then, the question is how much weight we want to attach to 1964 Soviet achievements vs 1974 or 1984 Soviet achievements.

Agree completely. I just wanted to know the specifics of the award as I know you had posted somewhere in the past regarding that instance so thanks for getting that out quickly!!

I don't think it's worth near what 70's or 80's players were. I've been steadfast in that from day 1. It's precisely why Perv > Ivanov.

Just pointing out that Ivanov had at least one sterling tournament for the voters.

I'm not as well versed in the 60's Soviet era as far as who were considered the best/most consistent performers. Obviously these domestic/international comps are valued relative to the existence of Soviet Hockey just as we do with the North American equivalent.

 

[ImporterExporter]

I don't understand what the problem is - those guys aren't real big SHG threats.

When NJ is defending a lead late in game, I can see a PP setup something like this:

Krutov - Kerr (he's a C/RW) - Lafleur - Pervukhin - Hollett
Abel - Starshinov - Bauer - Stanley - Seibert

Pervuhkin (3rd all-time leading Soviet scorer from D) isn't a great 1st unit guy, so he's not listed there in the main roster post, but there's a reason my ice-time chart gives him 1 PP minute per game.


I have to hand it to you - it's quite the accomplishment to use statistics in a deceptive way twice in one sentence:

• Comparing raw stats between a pre-expansion player and a 1970s player?
• Using goals for a defenseman rather than points?

That's not even getting into the fact that Westfall was killing penalties with Bobby Orr

Anyway, Hollett:

• Led the NHL playoffs in points-by-a-defenseman 3 times (1941, 1943, 1945). And yes, he was a full-time defenseman in the 1941 playoffs - 1940s Boston used 2 defense pairings, and they have exactly 4 defenseman who played games in the playoffs that year; 1940-41 Boston Bruins Roster and Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com. It appears Hollett played mostly forward in 1939 though, based on Boston having 5 dressed "defensemen" for all the games. So I'm not including 1939, which his old profile used to count as a 4th lead in playoff points by defensemen.
• Was top 5 in playoff points among ALL players all three of those years, while playing as a defensemen (3rd(1943), 4th(1941), 5th(1945)).

Come on, you really think your forwards are more dangerous shorthanded than Starshinov, Abel, and especially the lightning fast Krutov? Krutov was a terror shorthanded in the Canada Cups.

Your forwards are great penalty killers because their are great at preventing goals against. They are not big time SHG threats.


Beliveau on the point? The fact that rookie Beliveau was tried out on the point is a cool trivia thing that I honestly had no idea about. However, moving him from his office in front of the net instantly makes your PP forwards terrible. Or do you think he can somehow play point on the 2nd wave after playing the most tiring role on the 1st unit up front?


It still doesen't mean he won't be dead tired at the end of a full two minute shift. I see Abel-Krutov licking their lips....



So now Shore and Lake are both playing on the PP? What credentials do they have for that? Wasn't Lake just a defensive defenseman? How was their scoring compared to other defensemen of their era? So doubling down on Ivanov playing the full 2 minutes more often than not - considering he's barely better than Pervukhin, if at all, it's a pretty big weakness.

To be honest, I think Keith would probably be your best pointman.


The same is true for NJ. We don't even have Mike Ricci playing a regular PK shift, and he easily could!

Of course, those 3 guys you have are awesome PKers (NJ only has 1 PK forward of that calibre in Tony Leswick), but you do not have any advantage in PK depth.


I think it's a major strength that NJ ends an unsuccessful PP with our top pairing on the ice. I could have used Pervukhin on the 2nd wave of the PP, but I really like the fact that Stanley-Seibert can settle things down if my PP is unsuccessful.


2 of 7 minutes on the PP is "top minutes" now? They are doing mop up duty on the PP.

You wish our top pairings were a wash...

• Westfall literally led the playoffs in SH goals 4 times. He's far more likely to score a G on the ST than any of your PK forwards outside maybe Krutov.

• Hollet will be shaking in his boots being the only man up top against Westfall and company IMO.

• Hollet's offensive value from the blue line is partially unknown in the overall scheme, yes, he absolutely was a stronger playoff performer, but his peak came during one of the most watered down eras of NHL hockey. Ever.

• One of the reasons why he always gets overrated in the ATD, IMO.

• You think Abel is a better chance to score on the PK? Based on what? History? Nope.

• You think Abel wasn't on a killing unit with a Red Kelly or other premium players that could have enhanced his own abilities?

• Abel has 1 SH playoff goal all time (2 overall).

• And yes, I get chances were less in the 40's/50's but that doesn't mean we just project arbitrary numbers because Abel is a scoring line F. He is badly out pointed as a PK player vs at least 3 of the Pittsburgh F's and I'd throw Harris up there as well.

• Trying to equate is VsX into superiority on the kill is not going to work. Abel isn't anything special unless I'm missing something, didn't produce points on the kill and you think he's more like to score?

• Starshinov (Mayorov) played in a primitive era. No different than trying to supress the value of Bowie-Russell. 1960's Soviet accomplishments aren't worth the same as Westfall's, Gainey, Jarvis, or Krutov's (credit to one of your guys).

• It's why Perv is a better player on the 3rd pairing for example over Ivanov (I'm reasonable haha). Similar profiles but one guy played in a much more competitive era, domestically and internationally.

• Duncan Keith can absolutely take shifts on the 2nd Unit (see his usage below).

• I simply want my best players on the ice as much as possible at ES. That is where the overwhelming majority of hockey is played this deep in the postseason.

• I explained that in the post you replied to.

• Ivanov is an offensive first Dmen playing #5 minutes, coming off a series where he would have gotten a lighter workload (Orpik) and 2 extra days rest. Short trip to NJ erases travel concerns.

• Asking him to play 1:30ish on what is likely going to be a few PP's (the deeper playoffs go generally fewer penalties are called) is nothing outrageous IMO given what we know about him.

• His profile is littered with references to being a strong offensive mind. Hell, Firsov talked about how easy it was to play with him and he would have been used to playing heavy minutes in that era.

That's PP TOI since 2009-10 (minimum of 50 games)

Keith has played over 3 minutes per game for the Hawks (12th overall) in 109 games which is more than anyone above him.

Fred Lake's offensive abilities are plenty:

• He was a strong offensive F before he became a Dman with Ottawa as seen below.

• Significantly, Fred Lake had twice been a 1st team all-star in the IHL, in 1906 and 1907, the first pro league with all-time greats Lalonde, Taylor, Hall, Pitre, Stuart, and Tommy Smith (from Van's bio in 2013)

• During his time in Ottawa (1908-09 through 1912-13) Lake scored 31 goals in 72 games, from the blue line (not counting any lost assists as he did plenty of rushing with Shore).

• Compare that with Moose Johnson a very well known HOF Dmen and strong offensive player (was so early in his career) who scored 39 goals in 66 games.

• Not a drastic gap by any imagination considering we're talking about a top flight early era HOF'er and Lake

• I'm pretty sure Johnson played D for all the seasons from 1908-09 through 1912-13. Would have been Wanderers from 08-09 through 1910-11 and I'm 98% sure he was in 1912 and 1913 with New Westminster in the PCHA

• Lake scored 3 goals in 6 SCF finals games as a Dman in 1910 and 1911

• I'm not saying Lake is a dynamite PP guy but on a 2nd unit, given what is above this and below I think he's perfectly fine holding down a 2nd unit spot for 40-45 seconds.

• Obviously I leave that to the voters to ultimately determine!

Pulled a few clips from the seasons Shore and Lake would have played together:


15 Dec 1909, Page 2 - The Ottawa Journal at Newspapers.com

Fred Lake is a modern Dman (1909). I take this to mean a 2 way player which Lake's bio clearly shows him to be.

Strong defensively, yes, but not without a lot of speed and plenty of offensive skill.

Wicked shot noted.

Ottawa Citizen - Google News Archive Search

Jan 27 1910:

Lake showing offensive flair with multiple goals on brilliant work.

Scored on an end to end rush through entire Canadian D.

Lake/Shore noted to be more infinitely more superior to Pitre and Laviolette.

Lake scoring 2 goals and breaking up "scores" of Les Canadiens attacks in the "easiest manner imaginable."

From same game

Lake with a retro assist

"The next goal fell to Captain Bruce Stuart. Lake, Stuart and Walsh rushed in turn and finally Lake found an opening drove it at the flags. Laviolette stopped, but Stuart as on the spot with a timely poke that put Ottawa ahead again. This seem to take the heart out of Laviolette's men, for they quickly faded, Lalonde going off for throwing his stick at Stuart and Roberts making it 5 to 3 on Ridpaths's pass."

Ottawa Citizen - Jan 31st 1910 (game played on 29th)
Ottawa Citizen - Google News Archive Search

"OTTAWA DEFENSE BEST."

"At the other end of the rink Lesueur, Lake and shore were in magnificent form. Lesueur stopped in miraculous fashion time and time again, while Lake never dashed down the ice without leaving Walsh and Stuart to look after the position. Stuart and Shore acted in a like manner, and when either of the Ottawa wings left his side of the rink, either Walsh, Stuart, Lake or Shore dashed up to fill the breach and take the pass. Such is the modern exemplification of team work, the secret of the Ottawa club's success.

Art Throop knocked out with massive hit by Shore:

Art Throop collided with Hamby Shore and injured his side, having to drop off after lying on the ice unnoticed for about two minutes.

Lake accidentally scores one into his own net and then redeems himself right away with great work and another retro assist:

Ronan nursed the puck down the rink celverly shooting form a sharp angle. The puck landed at Lake's feet and in trying to clear Fred accidently batted it into the Ottawa goal. Ronan of course getting the credit. Lake immediately redeemed himself by carrying the rubber up the ice and snapping it across to Roberts for Ottawa's third goal."

Other snippets:

"Petie Green believes Ottawas will go through the seasons without a defeat."

"Hamby Shore's superb work is almost enough to make one forget the phenomenal Taylor (Cyclone)."

7 Feb 1910, Page 4 - The Ottawa Journal at Newspapers.com

Lake scores game winning goal on brilliant solo rush.

Noted to have broken up many rushes on the defensive end.

Drew a tripping penalty which led to a PP goal.

Ottawa Citizen - Jan 30th, 1911 (game played on 28th)
Ottawa Citizen - Google News Archive Search

Another retro assist for Lake.

Another monster game for both. Shore very physical. Lake took a licking and kept ticking and apparently his nickname was Cupid. Shore played goalie for a spell.

"Ottawa defense outstanding feature:

"The oustanding feature of the first period was the stellar work of the Ottawa defence, Shore in particular. Lesueur and Lake blocked several dangerous attacks and the Ottawa forwards, through offside passing lost four or five beautiful opportunities.

"The Ottawa defence was absolutely invulnerable"

"Wanderers had evidently found the Ottawa defence far too strong, for they were laying around their own goal, evidently prepared to adopt "safe" tactics.

"The greatest finish I ever saw commented referee Bowie. "That Ottawa team cannot be beaten"

SHORE WAS BRILLIANT:

"Next to Kerr, Hamby Shore was the most conspicuous player on the Ottawa team. He blocked and rushed in an electrifying manner and would had three or four goals, but for Hern's heady work. Shore did as much rushing as the forwards and repeatedly slammed the big Wanderer men into the boards, depriving them of the puck.

Fred Lake was superb from beginning to end. Marty Walsh, afterwards remarking that "Cupid" (Lake) was the "gamest man he had ever seen". Lake took a heap of punishment but refused to be suppressed. His forehead was painfully gashed and covered with plaster and though he was forced on several occasions to take the count he stayed right with it until the bell rang. Lake was responsible for the 4th goal. Riddy scoring after Fred had carried it down.

Hamby Shore played goal for a spell:

One of the features of the game was Hamby Shore's attempt to score in the third period when he, while playing goal, stopped Marshall's shot and went from end to end."

1 Feb 1911, 8 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com

Captain Percy Lesueur says the defensive pairing of Lake and Shore is the best combination he's every played behind. In the spring of 1911 he would have already had both Harvey Pulford and Cyclone Taylor in front of him as teammates in prior seasons. Speaks volumes as to the impact that pairing had on the Silver Seven dominance.

Despite being smaller, they use their bodies more effectively than Cyclone Taylor, Moose Johnson, and others. Noted as clever blockers.

PERHAPS THEIR GREATEST ASSET, AS LESUEUR POINTS OUT, HOWEVER, IS THEIR ABILITY TO CARRY THE PUCK.

MANAGER GREEN SAYS THAT "EVERY GOOD TEAM IN MODERN HOCKEY SHOULD HAVE SIX FORWARDS (MEANING PLAYERS CAPABLE OF MOVING THE PUCK)"

Ottawa Citizen - Feb 6th, 1911 (game played on 4th)
Ottawa Citizen - Google News Archive Search

Lake another elite game.

Brilliant work saved Ottawa when dangerous attacks imminent.

Most dangerous in the OT

"Lake came down like a wolf on the fold in the second period and batted in past Moran (Paddy)

These rushes of Lake were VERY effective all through the game

Noted as having the speed of Cyclone Taylor.

"Fred Lake was there with the goods, as usual and his brilliant work often saved the team where a dangerous attack was imminent. At no time during the game was Lake more dangerous than the overtime play, when the tired Quebec men battered themselves against his stonewall defence in vain, only to see his barred sweater vanishing in a cloud of blue and white forms in the direction of the Quebec nets.

Hamby Shore came back for Ottawa three minutes later and hung up a goal after a quick dart from center ice. The first period ended one to one. Lake came down like a wolf on the fold in the second period and batted in past Moran, who was slumbering at the switch. These rushes of Lake's were very effective all through the game.

He has the speed of Fred Taylor and does not lose his head he gets near the opponents goal with the puck."

Ottawa Citizen - Mar 17th, 1911 (game played on 16th)
Ottawa Citizen - Google News Archive Search

Shore and Lake brilliant.

Both rushed many times

Entire Ottawa system praised.

"They (Port Arthur) passed slower than the Ottawas and as the result, Lake and Shore were able to break up rush after rush surprising ease.

The defence of the champions was its best throughout, the hard ice finding both Lake and Shore in their element.

Lake rushed with great speed, and Shore did likewise, the latter often carving his way from end to end on a serpentine attack that left the Port Arthur players dodging their own shadows. Barring a little selfishness, the work of the Ottawa defense as beyond criticism. Their checking was vastly superior to that of the Westerners and although lighter than McDonough and Carpenter, used their weight to a better advantage.

More incredible teamwork and strategy for Pete Green's bunch from same game:

The shooting of the entire Ottawa's line was brilliant throughout. They never forgot the necessity of checking back when either Lake or Shore went up with the attack. Darragh or Walsh was back to protect Lesueur. Better team play, in fact, has seldom been seen."

Ottawa Citizen - Mar 21st, 1911: (game played on 20th)
Ottawa Citizen - Google News Archive Search

Both men play well.

"The Ottawas on the other hand were exceptionally brilliant. Nothing to excel Percy Lesuer's work in the flags has even been seen in New York.

Lake and Shore, especially Shore, were in great fettle (condition) on the defense, the rushes of both repeatedly captivating the crowd. Lake was very reliable."

Ottawa Citizen - Dec 30th, 1912 (game played on 28th)
Ottawa Citizen - Google News Archive Search

Lake has a massive game.

Breaks up attack (great D) and then promptly goes end to end for the goal (offense)

"Made frequent onslaughts on the Quebec nets.

The defence on both sides was more or less even, but if anything Lesueur in Ottawa nets outshone Moran at the start, stopping everything that came his way and turning shot after shot aisde that with another goal tend might have counted in Quebec's scoring.

The game was only two minutes old and both sides were striving hard when Lake broke up a Quebec rush and dashed down the entire length of the ice, drawing first blood for Ottawa.

Lake played a wonderful game and was effective both in defense and attack. Lesueur dropped off in a the last few minutes, owing to an injured knee. Lake blocked up the Quebec forwards, broke up their rushes and made frequent onslaughts on the Quebec nets.

Shore was slower than usual.

Ottawa Citizen - Jan 23rd, 1913 (game played on 22nd)
Ottawa Citizen - Google News Archive Search

Ottawa loses 4-3 in OT but Shore and especially Lake were mentioned playing better hockey.

Shore was a focal point of Tech's game plan to stop Ottawa.

Lake started Ottawa rally with "grand piece of individual play in second period"

Also mentions that Ottawas struggles have to do with lack of ability/size/grit at F. T

his seems to be a running theme at the end of Pete Green's first run as Ottawa's coach.

You'll see more evidence of ownership being blamed for not paying to keep their star forwards.

"Both Lake and Shore played better hockey than in the Canadien game and Lake was perhaps the hardest worker on the Ottawa team.

"LAKE WORKED HARD"

He started the Ottawa rally with a grand piece of individual play it he second period and was at all times dangerous.

Throop, Gaul and Smith appeared to pay particular attention to Shore and he only had two or three shots at the flags of the red and white.

"NEED MORE PLAYERS"

What Ottawa needs is two more big rugged forwards, who can go in and take and give punishment. Until they land a couple of strong men they will continue to slump."

• Beliveau doesn't need to take a whole shift on the point. This isn't a game of absolutes. Maybe 2-3 times over the course of the series Larry Robinson will get him up top to take advantage of his huge shot from the point.

• Gives NJ an unexpected look and Robinson was selected, in large part because I knew I would be trailing as far as PP point men go. Robinson has a nice track record in this area and I expect him to maximize the unit.

• Obviously the overwhelming majority of the time Beliveau be at the net front/slot.

• Pittsburgh has numerous big, physical players that can get down low and impact Hainsworth.

• You can send Olmstead down low, Harris, Wilson who all possess big time physicality and the first 2 are big humans.

• Russell Bowie wasn't a big guy but was extremely scrappy and he scored a ton of goals from very close in, with players all around him. He's not adverse at all to going low in the zone or producing in those areas.

• And as I pointed out, Keith is literally shown to have played more on the kill than Stanley and Keith's teams were above the league average at preventing PP goals.

• I'd wager the usage would be even if you accounted for the 1950's but Stanley's peak years came 1960 and beyond anyway.

• Coulter, is the most air tight defender in this series IMO. He was noted as stronger than Seibert specifically in 1936 in the Lank Leonard scouting report when the trade happened.

• Coulter has the size, physicality and defensive reputation to be called the most reliable PK Dman in this series, IMO.

• So yes, on the top PK unit, I think Keith-Coulter is every bit as good as Stanley-Seibert, coupled with Pittsburgh huge advantage at F and that's why I think Pitt has a big advantage on the kill, especially when you account for the G which is an important piece when down a man.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Lake Game by game breakdown

1909

Jan 6 1909 vs Wanderers (very strong team)

Ottawa looses 7-6 in OT

• Lake scores 2 of the 6 goals in OT loss

From Ottawa Citizen describing how good Lake was:

• Fred Lake at point made the hit of the night.

• Scored one goal on an end to end rush (individual brilliance)

• Scored other off pass by Taylor (combination)

• Scored as result of "clever head work"

• "The blocking, relieving and combination of Taylor and Lake was hard to beat."

Vs Quebec Jan 9th, 1909 (3rd place team out of 4)

Ottawa wins 13-5

11 Jan 1909, Page 2 - The Ottawa Journal at Newspapers.com

• Lake scores 2 goal

• Had retro assist but called back for offsides

• Also have this incredible overview:

• Lake and Taylor both assisted very materially in the greater part of the scoring.

• Both men have great speed and the way they went by the Quebec players was pretty to watch.

• The speed enabled them always to get back on the defence to assist in breaking up a rush or combination

From Citizen same game:

• Lake one of most effective ever seen in the position (cover point)

• Lake used his body with great effect, but in a "fair, legitimate manner, showing head work when such was most need" (smart player)

• Lake showed marvelous speed dashing by Quebec forwards time and time again

• Plays UNSELFISH game, passing the puck whenever a pass was called for.

Vs Shamrocks Jan 13th, 1909 (last place team)

Ottawa wins 11-3

14 Jan 1909, Page 2 - The Ottawa Journal at Newspapers.com

• Looks like Lake had 1 assist in first half to make score 5-3

From Citizen (same game)

• Lake "strong, brainy, and reliable at point"

Vs Shamrocks Jan 16th, 1909 (last place team)

Ottawa wins 9-7

No points noted.


Vs Quebec, Jan 23rd, 1909 (3rd place team out of 4)

25 Jan 1909, 8 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com

Ottawa wins 18-4

• No goal by goal reporting but Lake did score 1 goal

• Lake noted to rush with forwards whenever occasion required

• Lake played one of the grandest all around games ever seen here.

• Quebec could do nothing against him offensively, was amusing

• Due to great offensive work by Taylor/Lake, Lesueur didn't have as much work

Vs Wanderers, Jan 30th, 1909 (very strong team, 2nd in league)

1 Feb 1909, 8 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com

Ottawa wins 5-4:

• Lake no points but this was said

• Lake/Stuart always on hand to cover up for Cyclone Taylor.

• Lake didn't rush much this game

• Seldom left his position and had effective body checking at all times

• Lake showed his class when the crisis came

Vs Wanderers Feb 6, 1909 (strong 2nd place team)

8 Feb 1909, 8 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com

Ottawa wins 9-8

Lake with Retro assist to Bruce Stuart

Lake snapped rubber back to Stuart who scored go ahead goal (made it 4-3 Ottawa)

Found another Pete Green coaching gem

Vs Quebec Feb 13th, 1909 (3rd place team)

15 Feb 1909, 8 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com

Ottawa wins 14-6

• Lake scores 2 goals

• Lakes head work was again in evidence

• Often carried puck out of danger zone when scores for the men in blue and white seemed inevitable.

• Lake is VERY RELIABLE in close quarters

• Visiting forwards found him a great stumbling block

• Lake noted in Game Notes to have "better scoring average than many ECHA forwards"

Vs Shamrocks Feb 20th, 1909 (last place team)

22 Feb 1909, 4 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com

Ottawa wins 7-3

No points that i can but Lake and Taylor noted to make beautiful attacks

Vs Shamrocks Feb 27th, 1909 (last place team)

1 Mar 1909, 8 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com

Ottawa wins 11-2

• Nothing noted except this gem:

• Taylor was injured in this game and forced to hospital

• Taylor noted to feed forwards perhaps more than any other defennce man in the game

• WITH THE EXCEPTION OF LAKE

Vs Wanderers Feb 4th, 1909 (2nd place team out of 4)

Ottawa wins 8-3

• No game report that I can find in either Ottawa paper or Gazette:

• Did find this in the Ottawa Journal

• Looks like game report was in Montreal Star which is not in the newspapers.com archives

• Lake played great game

• Did bulk of the defense work to cover up for hobbled Taylor

Vs Quebec Mar 7th, 1909 (3rd place team)

Ottawa looses 11-6 (final game of season)

Nothing noted in either paper

8 Mar 1909, 8 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com

8 Mar 1909, Page 2 - The Ottawa Journal at Newspapers.com

 

[Namba 17]

It's a pity that we should choose one team in this final.
Both teams are very good and both GMs deserved a victory.
Interesting discussion.

 

[Dreakmur]

Westfall literally led the playoffs in SH goals 4 times. He's far more likely to score a G on the ST than any of your PK forwards outside maybe Krutov.

I suppose that's true, but very misleading. 3 of those 4 play-offs, he scored 1 goal, and was co-leader with 5 to 10 other guys.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Shore/Lake in 1910

• You can clearly see how good Shore is early on as a Dman, esepcially at both ends. Already has multiple multi goal games.

• Lake continues to produce offensively while both men simply play a strong 2 way game often being cited for stellar blocking and heavy body work.

• Shore outplayed Cyclone Taylor and in his first season as a Dman is already being talked about among the best in the game

• Fred Lake equaled performance of Frank Patrick in same game

• Lake Scores GW SH goal in another game with 30 seconds left in final period

Jan 15th, 1910

Vs Shamrocks (6th out of 7 teams, did have Joe Hall and Dunderdale)

Ottawa wins 15-3

• Shore's first game with Lake/Sens

• Shore's brilliance a feature

• Shore played one of the brainest games on the ice

• Splendid speed and stickhandling carrying the rubber down ice for "two of the prettiest goals imaginable"

• The great FRED TAYLOR COULD NOT HAVE PLAYED THE POSITION MORE PERFECTLY THAN SHORE.

• Shore's work bringing down the house, time after time.

• Checking very effective

• Deserves to be in class with the greatest defensemen

• Fred Lake AS USUAL was a tower of strength

• Lake also did some magnificent rushing scoring 1 goal

From Journal (same game)

• Shore was bright star of the match, scoring 2 goals from coverpoint

• His defense could not have been excelled

• Lake/Lesueur practically unbeatable

Jan 22nd, 1910

24 Jan 1910, 8 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com

Vs Canadiens (7th out of 7, had Lalonde, Pitre, Laviolette, so not a typical bottom feeder)

Ottawa wins 6-4

• Shore and Lake both went off ice for penalties during game and Montreal scored a pair of PP goals.

• Slow ice and fact Ottawa was coming off SC challenge against Edmonton noted as having them tired.

Jan 26th, 1910

27 Jan 1910, 8 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com

Vs Canadiens (7th out of 7 again with Lalonde, Pitre, Laviolette)

Ottawa wins 8-4

• Lake scores 2 goals

• Scores 1st goal carrying puck through entire Montreal D making it 1-0

• 2nd goal comes after he took a trailing pass and drove a low shot pass goalie

• Fast ice delights Ottawa

• Lake and Shore played excellent from start to finish

• Left few openings

• Lake and Shore repeatedly carried puck down to goal mouth

• Work infinitely superior to Laviolette and Pitre (not shabby names to best head to head)

Jan 29th, 1910

Vs Haileybury (5th out of 7 but had Art Ross, Paddy Moran)

Ottawa wins 11-4

• Green's teamwork/system again noted

• Shore scores 2+1, Lake gets 1+1

• Shore knocks Throop out of game with big hit

• Shore with retro assist making score 2-1 Ottawa

• Lake accidentally knocks one into his own net, score 2-2

• Lake immediately redeems himself with retro assist making it 3-2

Feb 5th, 1910

7 Feb 1910, 8 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com

Vs Cobalt (4th out of 7)

Ottawa wins 5-4

Fred Lake scores GW SHORT HANDED goal with 30 seconds left after stealing puck and going on great solo run

Feb 9th, 1910

10 Feb 1910, 8 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com

Vs Haileybury (5th out of 7 had Art Ross, Moran, Ronan, Throop)

Ottawa wins 8-4

• Shore bags 2 goals

• Lake and Shore not only defended their nets with great success

• Both kept tearing down the ice in a manner that kept the Haileybury players on pins and needles

February 12th, 1910

14 Feb 1910, 8 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com

Ottawa wins 8-5

Vs Renfrew (3rd out of 7, had Cyclone Taylor, Lester Patrick, Frank Patrick,)

• Fred Lake said to have equaled Frank Patrick and they are considered the two best point men in the NHA

• Shore (1 goal) outplays Cyclone Taylor who doesn't find the net but did get 1 assist.

• Shore gives greatest exhibition of his young career as a Dman.

• Hamby's blocking superb

• Scored 1st goal of game on beautiful piece of work

• Lake steals puck from Lester Patrick goes down ice and passes to Ridpath who scores.

• Retro assist for Lake

• Lake crushes Cyclone Taylor laying him out on the ice

• Shore checks Taylor keeping him from scoring on a rush

From Journal (same game)

February 19th, 1910

21 Feb 1910, Page 4 - The Ottawa Journal at Newspapers.com

Vs Wanderers (1st out of 7, with Moose Johnson, Hern, Ernie Russell, Glass, Hyland)

Ottawa lost 7-5

• Lake scores late game tying SH goal

• Missed a 2nd goal by a fraction of a 2nd at buzzer

• Nothing noted on Shore either way

• Lake and Walsh did take a late penalty each which cost Ottawa

Feb 23rd, 1910

24 Feb 1910, Page 4 - The Ottawa Journal at Newspapers.com

Vs Shamrocks (6th out of 7)

• Lake with retro assist

• Nothing in particular noted other than Lake/Shore played nicely.

Feb 27th, 1910

28 Feb 1910, 8 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com

Vs Cobat (4th out of 7 teams)

Ottawa wins 11-5

No points

Mar 5,

7 Mar 1910, Page 4 - The Ottawa Journal at Newspapers.com

Vs Wanderers

Ottawa loses 3-1

No points


Mar 8th,

Vs Renfrew

Ottawa Citizen - Google News Archive Search

Ottawa crushed 17-2 by Fred Taylor and Renfrew (no Fred Lake though).

This was the game where Taylor scored skating backwards!

Just one of those games where everything goes wrong. Brutal in an otherwise mainly dominant era.

 

[ImporterExporter]

I suppose that's true, but very misleading. 3 of those 4 play-offs, he scored 1 goal, and was co-leader with 5 to 10 other guys.

Yes of course sir.

Those 1 SH instances are not illustrious or anything. I was just pulling from Hockey Reference where you see the bolded figures that indicate the most for a given season.

The overall point is Westfall scored 8 SH goals in 95 playoffs games and had 66 SH points in the regular season. I think he's certainly more likely to pot a SH goal given history and the fact that Hollet is all by his lonesome on that 1st unit.

Against some teams that might be a smart play but against 3 elite PK'ers like Westfall, Jarvis, Gainey? Throw in Harris or Russell who are very strong defensively and were capable of producing secondary offense, Harris especially. Plus all those guys can skate at a very high level. It was another factor in why I wanted to get such peak/depth on the kill. I knew I'd be trailing on the points most likely, in probably every series. That's going to happen when you take Keith/Coulter to start your D.

But having the elite PK forwards and depth to rotate and keep guys fresh, I think NJ's own point men are going to have a lot more trouble than any series they've had so far, IMHO.

 

[ImporterExporter]

It's a pity that we should choose one team in this final.
Both teams are very good and both GMs deserved a victory.
Interesting discussion.

It really has been a blast. I've learned such a crazy amount on numerous people. Written and read some really great discussions. Everything has been relaxed, free flowing. Great convo. It's honestly been a great 5 months with this ATD and all of you guys. Not sure where I'd be sanity wise without this particular draft haha.

And thank you for continuing to stick around, plus the numerous additions throughout the playoffs. Always enjoy the European additions.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I suppose that's true, but very misleading. 3 of those 4 play-offs, he scored 1 goal, and was co-leader with 5 to 10 other guys.

Yikes.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Summary of positional comparisons

1st line = advantage NJ. NJ has the best player in 2 of 3 positions (the "glue guy" and the "Soviet scoring star"), while Pittsburgh has the advantage in 1 position "the superstar 1st round ATD pick"). Additionally, the largest gap is between glue guys - Abel is a much better offensive player than Bert Olmstead in the regular season and especially the playoffs.

2nd line = advantage NJ. Bowie is probably a little better than Starshinov, but he doesn't have much help from the wings. In particular, Blair Russell's offense is so bad, it drags down Pittsburgh's secondary scoring. Blair Russell was a fantastic defensive player, but he's a worse scorer than any of NJ's starting 12 forwards.

3rd line = advantage NJ in 2 of 3 zones. Pittsburgh's 3rd line is constructed to be only useful in the defensive zone, but they are obviously great at that one thing. But hockey is a three-zone game - the most effective checking lines are also at least a little dangerous in the counterattack - without much danger of a counter-attack, it lets NJ cheat offensively at least a little bit. From a talent perspective, one could make an argument for Pittsburgh's wingers (though NJ's are at least a little better at the counterattack), but look at the centers. Jarvis can't hold Cooney Weiland's jock outside the defensive zone.

Edit: I would perhaps be more forgiving towards Pittsburgh's 3rd line being defense-only, if their 2nd line was stronger offensively.

1st pairing = small advantage NJ. Seibert > Keith by more than Coulter > Stanley (if Coulter is better at all). And #1 D is more important.

2nd pairing = advantage NJ. Lutchenko is a really good 2nd pairing anchor, who probably should be a low-end #2 in a 40 team draft. Lake and Shore were non-HHOFers playing in an era when just about every notable player made the HHOF. But IE did a good job of raising their value here - they look to be solid "Hockey Hall of Very Good" calibre players. I still I can't see them as any better than Flash Hollett, who has an "adjusted awards record" of 3 2nd Team All-Stars, and is a HHVG calibre player himself.

3rd pairing = likely small advantage NJ. Hard to compare the Soviets, but they are probably close. Doug Young is better than Girardi though, especially at even strength.

Goaltending = advantage Pittsburgh. Vezina is my #10 all-time, above average in a 40 team draft. Hainsworth is probably #21 or #22 all-time, about average in a 40 team draft. Hainsworth's playoff record is at least as good as Vezina's though.

Coaching = advantage Pittsburgh. I guess Pete Green should be how be considered somewhere in the neighborhood of 10th all-time among coaches, give or take a few spots in each directions. I have Ken Hitchcock as the 2nd most notable recent* coach after Joel Quenneville and somewhere around 15th overall. *By "recent," I basically mean "more recent than Scottie Bowman." Others will likely have him a little lower, around 20th overall. Hitchcock sure has longevity as a successful coach to his credit, ranking 3rd all-time in regular season wins and 10th all-time in playoff wins. And while his teams often had good rosters, he never coached a super-stacked roster. His systems have also been widely copied throughout the hockey world, another sign of a great modern coach.

Minor point = having home ice advantage in this series makes things slightly easier for Hitchcock.

FWIW, Bob Johnson has a more impressive overall coaching resume than Larry Robinson, but he's not head coach, so it doesn't really matter. Johnson is there to run NJ's power play. I would assume Robinson is there to run Pittsburgh's defensemen.

Powerplay = advantage NJ.

Penalty kill = advantage Pittsburgh

Overall special teams = I think this is a small advantage NJ. NJ's PK isn't as good as Pittsburgh's, but it doesn't have any major weaknesses either, like Pittsburgh does with their lack PP1-calibre pointmen. Again, for what it's worth, NJ's PP coach Bob Johnson is one of the greatest PP coaches and innovators of all-time.

 

[Dreakmur]

Summary of positional comparisons

1st line = advantage NJ. NJ has the best player in 2 of 3 positions (the "glue guy" and the "Soviet scoring star"), while Pittsburgh has the advantage in 1 position "the superstar 1st round ATD pick"). Additionally, the largest gap is between glue guys - Abel is a much better offensive player than Bert Olmstead in the regular season and especially the playoffs.

I think Balderis is probably a little better offensively than Krutov, but less well-rounded. I'd say they are probably equal.

For comparison, Beliveau and Olmstead have ES scores of 96.0 and 72.0 respectively. I don't see a huge gap in play-off ability between the two lines.

Close to a tie.... maybe a very slim edge for New Jersey.

2nd line = advantage NJ. Bowie is probably a little better than Starshinov, but he doesn't have much help from the wings. In particular, Blair Russell's offense is so bad, it drags down Pittsburgh's secondary scoring. Blair Russell was a fantastic defensive player, but he's a worse scorer than any of NJ's starting 12 forwards.

I see this line as one of Pittsburgh's two glairing weaknesses. Bowie is a good offensive center, but he totally lacks anything outside of regular season offense. Smokey Harris is a good glue guy - he'd be excellent if he was the 3rd best player. I don't know about Blair Russell at all. His offensive game is undeniably weak. He lacks any physical game. He lacks play-off success. His defensive ability is being portrayed as elite, but I see him a lot closer to "above average" than he is to "elite".

Not a huge fan of New Jerseys line either, but it's significantly better than Pittsburgh's IMO.

3rd line = advantage NJ in 2 of 3 zones. Pittsburgh's 3rd line is constructed to be only useful in the defensive zone, but they are obviously great at that one thing. But hockey is a three-zone game - the most effective checking lines are also at least a little dangerous in the counterattack - without much danger of a counter-attack, it lets NJ cheat offensively at least a little bit. From a talent perspective, one could make an argument for Pittsburgh's wingers (though NJ's are at least a little better at the counterattack), but look at the centers. Jarvis can't hold Cooney Weiland's jock outside the defensive zone.

I'm actually going to look at Gainey's and Westfall's ES scoring. I have a feeling it's a lot better than their overall scoring rates.

I'll come back to this one.....

1st pairing = small advantage NJ. Seibert > Keith by more than Coulter > Stanley (if Coulter is better at all). And #1 D is more important.

Keith is a beast at even strength. I think Doughty has passed Keith now, but in a straight ES comparison, Keith's really close to Seibert.

This might be a tie for me.

2nd pairing = advantage NJ. Lutchenko is a really good 2nd pairing anchor, who probably should be a low-end #2 in a 40 team draft. Lake and Shore were non-HHOFers playing in an era when just about every notable player made the HHOF. But IE did a good job of raising their value here - they look to be solid "Hockey Hall of Very Good" calibre players. I still I can't see them as any better than Flash Hollett, who has an "adjusted awards record" of 3 2nd Team All-Stars, and is a HHVG calibre player himself.

This is Pitts' other glaring weakness. I don't like Lutchenko, but he's easily the best player on either of these pairs. Lake-Shore is more of a 3rd pair to me, and I'm not sure they'd stand out as good in that role.

3rd pairing = likely small advantage NJ. Hard to compare the Soviets, but they are probably close. Doug Young is better than Girardi though, especially at even strength.

Yeah, Girardi is a specialist for sure. Good PKer, but useless at ES.

Coaching = advantage Pittsburgh. I guess Pete Green should be how be considered somewhere in the neighborhood of 10th all-time among coaches, give or take a few spots in each directions. I have Ken Hitchcock as the 2nd most notable recent* coach after Joel Quenneville and somewhere around 15th overall. *By "recent," I basically mean "more recent than Scottie Bowman." Others will likely have him a little lower, around 20th overall. Hitchcock sure has longevity as a successful coach to his credit, ranking 3rd all-time in regular season wins and 10th all-time in playoff wins. And while his teams often had good rosters, he never coached a super-stacked roster. His systems have also been widely copied throughout the hockey world, another sign of a great modern coach.

Minor point = having home ice advantage in this series makes things slightly easier for Hitchcock.

FWIW, Bob Johnson has a much more impressive overall coaching resume than Larry Robinson, but he's not head coach, so it doesn't really matter. Johnson is there to run NJ's power play. I would assume Robinson is there to run Pittsburgh's defensemen.

Remember when we had Pete Green and Ken Hitchcock? Good times lol

Even back then, we kind of had an inkling that there was more to Green. Kuddos to EI for digging into it. This it probably the most significant piece of research in the last few ATDs.

Coaches are a bit odd. I have 4 elite coaches - Blake, Bowman, Patrick, and Tarasov. After that, there's probably a dozen guys who I would say are very good, but limited by a specific style. After those few elites, I think fit is a lot more important than a numerical ranking.

Green is absolutely in that next group. He won't be out-coached by anyone outside the top-4, but he needs a certain roster construction to maximize his effectiveness.

I think Hitchcock is in that group too, though he is a little more restricted in the type of roster needed to maximize his effectiveness.

Which roster suits their coach better? I think Pittsburgh's does, so for me that means they'll have a coaching edge.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Rat Westwick's offense is so hard for me to place. His bio makes his offense look even worse than Blair Russell in the regular season, which is really really bad. But I asked seventieslord to send me The Trail of the Stanley Cup's list of "playoff goal scoring" for the early era, and he actually does look like he scored a fair amount compared to his peers in Cup challenges.

Anyway, to be fair, I removed the line in my above summary about the Smoky Harris-Rat Westwick duo being a major weakness on the 2nd PP for Pittsburgh. I still think NJ's PP2 forwards are clearly better, but I'm not sure if Pittsburgh's PP2 forwards are a major weakness anymore.