ATD 2020 Finals - (1) NJ Swamp Devils vs (3) Pittsburgh AC

[Dreakmur]

I'll pretend that Art Duncan is a reasonable standard for 1924, despite the fact that the PCHA was clearly the 3rd best league by 1924 - the WCHL and PCHA played an interlocking schedule for a few years, and in the PCHA's final season, the WCHL dominated. This is actually relevant because 1924 was Harris's 5th "best" season.

Art Duncan landed 6th on my consolidation project. Another defenseman was 2nd - George Boucher - who was behind Bill Cook. I have Smokey Harris with a score of 56 for that season.

 

[Dreakmur]

I will say my biggest question of this series is the pairing of Fred Lake and Hamby Shore. Even with all the new research, I’m not sure where to place them. As with Harris, it’s important to me that I am able to place guys within their own peer group. With Shore and Lake, I’m not sure they’ve come up high enough to be considered anything more than a glaring weakness.

Did either one of them jump ahead of any of their peers? None of the notable ones in my opinion. Gleghorn, Cameron, gerard, Boucher all ahead. Stuart and pulford ahead. Johnson, Patrick, Patrick ahead. Did they join guys like Duncan, cook, and Simpson? Maybe.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I have a question too: What do we know on the Stanley vs. Béliveau match-up?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I will say my biggest question of this series is the pairing of Fred Lake and Hamby Shore. Even with all the new research, I’m not sure where to place them. As with Harris, it’s important to me that I am able to place guys within their own peer group. With Shore and Lake, I’m not sure they’ve come up high enough to be considered anything more than a glaring weakness.

Did either one of them jump ahead of any of their peers? None of the notable ones in my opinion. Gleghorn, Cameron, gerard, Boucher all ahead. Stuart and pulford ahead. Johnson, Patrick, Patrick ahead. Did they join guys like Duncan, cook, and Simpson? Maybe.

I was actually thinking of this last night, in preparation for a blueline comparison.

Another data point - Joe Hall. Hall overlapped the careers of Fred Lake and Hamby Shore, but Hall had significantly more star power, and unlike them, he is in the HHOF. So I'm pretty sure that Joe Hall is at least one step above those guys.

I think contemporary HHOFers Si Griffis and Art Ross were more celebrated than them, as well.

Are Duncan and Cook good comparables for Lake and Shore, in terms of their placement all-time? High end non-HHOFers (aka HOVG)? I don't know. Maybe. It's easier to tell with Duncan and Cook because the PCHA had yearly all-star teams, which the NHA did not.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I have a question too: What do we know on the Stanley vs. Béliveau match-up?

Stanley played with Toronto from 1958-59 to 1967-68, almost always paired with Tim Horton.

Beliveau vs Toronto 1958-59 to 1967-68: 120 GP, 43 goals, 70 assists, 113 points, +7. 0.36 GPG, 0.94 PPG
NHL.com Stats

Beliveau vs the other 5 teams 1958-59-1967-68: 490 GP, 224 goals, 330 assists, 554 points, +70. 0.48 GPG, 1.13 PPG

It makes sense. Beliveau was a big strong man who did much of his damage in front of the net, and who would you want to go against such a man more than the big and strong Stanley-Horton pairing? And as I said in my last series, I think that the burly right-hander Earl Seibert is very similar to Tim Horton from both a skillset and talent perspective.

Interestingly enough, Bobby Hull looks like one star forward from the O6 who did not see his production drop against Toronto, though his plus/minus did drop against them. Montreal was the team that had Hull's number.

______

By the way, the NHL's newish stats database is very easy to use once you get the hang of it. Thank you @overpass for showing me how.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Stanley played with Toronto from 1958-59 to 1967-68, almost always paired with Tim Horton.

Beliveau vs Toronto 1958-59 to 1967-68: 120 GP, 43 goals, 70 assists, 113 points, +7. 0.36 GPG, 0.94 PPG
NHL.com Stats

Beliveau vs the other 5 teams 1958-59-1967-68: 490 GP, 224 goals, 330 assists, 554 points, +70. 0.48 GPG, 1.13 PPG

It makes sense. Beliveau was a big strong man who did much of his damage in front of the net, and who would you want to go against such a man more than the big and strong Stanley-Horton pairing? And as I said in my last series, I think that the burly right-hander Earl Seibert is very similar to Tim Horton from both a skillset and talent perspective.

Interestingly enough, Bobby Hull looks like one star forward from the O6 who did not see his production drop against Toronto, though his plus/minus did drop against them. Montreal was the team that had Hull's number.

______

By the way, the NHL's newish stats database is very easy to use once you get the hang of it. Thank you @overpass for showing me how.

The contributions of Dave Keon and Red Kelly (along with the other Toronto forwards) shouldn't be ignored though. Especially Red Kelly.

That said it seems clear that Stanley-Horton went against Beliveau, as in that timeframe Brewer's +/- against Montreal is +17, whereas Stanley is -4 and Horton -17 in that interval. The pattern is the same in the playoffs, with Baun and Brewer being slightly better than Stanley and Horton.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I was actually thinking of this last night, in preparation for a blueline comparison.

Another data point - Joe Hall. Hall overlapped the careers of Fred Lake and Hamby Shore, but Hall had significantly more star power, and unlike them, he is in the HHOF. So I'm pretty sure that Joe Hall is at least one step above those guys.

I think contemporary HHOFers Si Griffis and Art Ross were more celebrated than them, as well.

Are Duncan and Cook good comparables for Lake and Shore, in terms of their placement all-time? High end non-HHOFers (aka HOVG)? I don't know. Maybe. It's easier to tell with Duncan and Cook because the PCHA had yearly all-star teams, which the NHA did not.

I'm still unsure who is better between Joe Hall, Art Duncan and Joe Simpson. This is a comparison I'd like to see in-depth one day. All three of them peaked very high and I came away impressed reading their game reports. Duncan gave me peak Clancy-level vibes reading his performances, but it was at his absolute peak. Did Hamby Shore and Fred Lake really peaked that high? I'm too unfamiliar with them.

Gut feeling I wouldn't see either of them at the level of the Hall-Duncan-Simpson trio, but that's based on almost nothing and am very opened to be persuaded otherwise.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Have to say I'm more of a fan of the Gainey-Jarvis-Westfall line than TDMM seems to be. To handle Gainey on Lafleur is something that NJ will have to address.

That said, NJ's 1st pairing is better equipped to handle Beliveau than Pittsburgh's is to handle Lafleur IMO.

 

[BenchBrawl]

A few thoughts:

Pittsburgh's third line of Gainey-Jarvis-Westfall is easily their 2nd in importance in that series. Pittsburgh can send Olmstead-Beliveau-Balderis and Gainey-Jarvis-Westfall against Krutov-Abel-Lafleur, with a preference for Gainey on Lafleur. NJ's third line with Leswick-Weiland-March is not as useful as they were against Orillia who had Gordie Howe.

However, NJ thankfully have a perfect 1st pairing to go against Jean Beliveau with two big defensemen. I think Allan Stanley is underrated, as Canadiens1958 made the case for his contributions in the shadow of Horton. Is there much, if anything, separating him from Art Coulter?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

The contributions of Dave Keon and Red Kelly (along with the other Toronto forwards) shouldn't be ignored though. Especially Red Kelly.

That said it seems clear that Stanley-Horton went against Beliveau, as in that timeframe Brewer's +/- against Montreal is +17, whereas Stanley is -4 and Horton -17 in that interval. The pattern is the same in the playoffs, with Baun and Brewer being slightly better than Stanley and Horton.

Yes, NJ doesn't have a Red Kelly.

What we do have is 4 centers who are strong both-ways, which is nice to have, given that Pittsburgh generates their offense from center.

FWIW, one reason I drafted Ricci was because I wanted more size in the middle.

I'm still unsure who is better between Joe Hall, Art Duncan and Joe Simpson. This is a comparison I'd like to see in-depth one day. All three of them peaked very high and I came away impressed reading their game reports. Duncan gave me peak Clancy-level vibes reading his performances, but it was at his absolute peak. Did Hamby Shore and Fred Lake really peaked that high? I'm too unfamiliar with them.

Gut feeling I wouldn't see either of them at the level of the Hall-Duncan-Simpson trio, but that's based on almost nothing and am very opened to be persuaded otherwise.

If you think Duncan is in Joe Hall's class, then no, those two aren't either, because Joe Hall played in the same league as Shore and Lake and I think the information we have on him shows him to be clearly better. Maybe Duncan-Cook is an attractive comparison to Shore-Lake, because they were a real pairing, but maybe Bobby Rowe is a better comparable to them?

Have to say I'm more of a fan of the Gainey-Jarvis-Westfall line than TDMM seems to be. To handle Gainey on Lafleur is something that NJ will have to address.

I think there is obviously a place for guys like Gainey and Westfall on third lines in this thing. I personally would rather not see 2 guys that weak offensively on the same line, but either one could play on my third line any day. And maybe in certain situations (is this one?), they both could play there together.

But I would never use a guy like Doug Jarvis as a top 3 center in this - I just don't think it's a great idea to have a center who generates next to zero offense on the ice for 15-20 minutes a game. Maybe if he was Carbonneau-level dominant defensively, but he wasn't.

This made me want to check, and Carbonneau was actually a significantly better even strength scorer than Jarvis - 32 adjusted even strength points per 82 games for Carbs, 24 adjusted even strength points per 82 games for Jarvis... and Carbs maintained it over hundreds of more games. (Source = overpass's excel sheet)

Basically, Jarvis was less than 3/4 of the scorer Carbonneau was...

That said, NJ's 1st pairing is better equipped to handle Beliveau than Pittsburgh's is to handle Lafleur IMO.

Yes, NJ has the perfect defensive pair to handle Beliveau, while the centers are so-so.

Pittsburgh has the perfect LW to handle Lafleur, while the defenders are so-so.

_______

A few points though.

• Is Westfall a good enough skater to cover Krutov? In the 1987 Canada Cup, Canada famously played Mike Gartner and Glenn Anderson against Krutov and Makarov, not because they were the best checkers on the team, but because they were the only wingers on the team with the speed not to be blown away by Krutov and Makarov.
• Is the Jarvis line really going to see 20 minutes of ice-time? That's 1/3 of the game when Pittsburgh is almost guaranteed not to score.
• Most importantly, if the first lines even stay close, NJ wins because NJ's secondary scoring is much better.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Re: Bob Gainey shadowing Lafleur - one typical way to deal with this would be to double-shift Lafleur. Ken Hitchcock rode his top players hard, so this wouldn't be out of the question for him to do.

If you look at NJ's ice-time charts, the team is already set up to double-shift Lafleur on the various other lines. It's the way to get him the most ice-time from our forwards, despite the fact that Krutov-Abel will take some penalty killing shifts. And I definitely don't want PP specialist Tim Kerr to see much ice time at even strength anyway.

It's not just the 4th line that Lafleur could play on - am I wrong to see Bobby Bauer as a poor man's version of Lafleur? Bauer was a flashy scorer who could shoot and pass, and was known as the primary puck handler on the Kraut Line . Maybe Hitchock could swap Bauer and Lafleur for a few shifts to mix things up?

There are a few options here. Even Weiland might see some shifts with Lafleur - the benefit of a two-way third line is that it makes shuffling the lineup more effective than if Lafleur was playing with someone like Jarvis.

Not saying that NJ necessarily has to shuffle the lineup; just saying that it's an option.

 

[ImporterExporter]

A "ceiling" that lasted 1 season - the only season of his career when he scored more than 3/4 of the points of the PCHA leader.



Yes, Harris seems to be quite close to Baldy Northcott offensively, but I wouldn't want Northcott as the 2nd best scorer on an ATD scoring line either.

I don't buy that Smokey Harris was "elite" physically, nor do I buy that he was as good defensively as Northcott, who was given a lot of credit for shutting down Charlie Conacher in 1935 in both the regular season and playoffs.

Your bio does a good job of fleshing out Harris's defense - but one of the best of his era? He's nowhere near on the same level as Frank Nighbor or Jack Walker. Not as celebrated as Rusty Walker. What about Jack Marks, Louis Berlinquette, or Punch Broadbent? Note that I'm only mentioning players for whom Ultimate Hockey felt the need to award a "Retro Selke," but all of them have at least as much info as Harris backing up their defensive play.

That's not saying your bio didn't change things - from now on, I'll always think of Harris as good enough defensively to be the defensive conscience of a scoring line in the ATD (kind of like Sid Abel...) Which is probably what he should be with his so-so offense. But I still don't see anything there to indicate that he was one of the best of his era; words like that should be reserved for guys like Blair Russell, who was excellent defensively (albeit against shaky competition).



For example, I don't buy that Smokey Harris was better defensively than Starshinov, the top defensive center for the USSR national team for a number of years.

Has was elite physically as well as defensively. I stand by that assesment given the volume of information relative to other players in the time period. There are specific instances of him locking down Cyclone Taylor.

The fact that the information available dwarfs almost everyone from that era. That's the benefit of doing deep dives as far as research goes. The more instance you have somebody being cited the stronger the rep goes. I've advocated this for years. I'm not putting out 2-3 clips. These, in some cases, are largely career reconstructions.

I've said many times, I think a lot of players get far too much leeway around here because there are 2, 3, 4 pieces of information that say a player was good or great at something. Or that they had some token AS votes in a small league. Things along those lines.

• Harris is called at multiple points in his career without equal as a back checker.

• His hook check was noted to rival MacKay and is "famous".

• He shut down Cyclone Taylor head to head. Shut down Bernie Morris. Shut down Foyston.

• Eddie Oatman, one of the toughest players of the day literally said Harris was the roughest/toughest guy in league.

• He laid out huge players during this era. Fought numerous players, had numerous seasons with higher PIM totals due to his playing style which he himself said was of the roughest variety.

• And the information is across his entire career which stretched over a decade.

This isn't even everything from his bio:

4 Dec 1912, 17 - Edmonton Journal at Newspapers.com

Scouting report in 1912

Strenuous back checking made up for his not scoring goals

Hard as nuts, looks for fray

Harris failed to shine in the scoring columns last season, but his strenuous back checking spoiled many a roseate dream of a goal in the mind of hte opposition.

Fred is hard as nuts, always eager for the fray, and couldn't be kept out of the game if he had to pay for the privileged of playing.

18 Dec 1912, 10 - The Province at Newspapers.com

Already called "husky checker" at 22 years old

Laid Goldie Prodgers out, who was a big dude, several times.

Harris as usual, was the husky checker and several times he stretched even big Prodgers on the ice by hard bodies

18 Dec 1912, Page 12 - Vancouver Daily World at Newspapers.com

Same game as above quote.

Busy checker who broke up numerous attacks

Fred Harris scored 2 goals as many as he scored all last season. He is still the busy checker and his hard work broke up more than one promising attack last night. He played a hard-working game every minute play was in progress.

30 Dec 1912, 11 - The Province at Newspapers.com

Harris called toughest player in league

Big strides as a scorer

Fred Harris the roughest and toughest boy in the league, according to Victoria fans, is showing himself to be a clever goal getter this year.

18 Jan 1913, Page 18 - Vancouver Daily World at Newspapers.com

Most effective player on ice. 2+1.

Checking again most effective.

Fred Harris appeared the most effective Vancouver player on the ice, getting two goals and assisting with a timely pass in another.

The Kenora boy's checking was again most effective and he was tireless in his efforts to aid in securing a victory.

17 Feb 1913, 10 - The Province at Newspapers.com

Harris puts McDonald out of the game

Ran McDonald was knocked out temporarily in a collision with Harris but was able to continue after a brief rest.

1 Mar 1913, 8 - The Victoria Daily Times at Newspapers.com

Harris makes the 1913 AS team

Goes from 4 goals as rookie to 14 in 2nd season

22 years old already called best back checker in the entire PCHA

Harris developed into a sensation this year, being a grand scorer, while there is not an equal in the league when it comes to back checking

26 Mar 1913, Page 14 - Vancouver Daily World at Newspapers.com

Harris broke up many attacks

He and Oatman showed up while the rest of Vancouver apparently didn't.

Eddie Oatman and Fred Harris were the hard working lads of the west. They were tireless in their efforts, both on the aggressive and in their back checking.

Harris in particular broke up many a promising piece of combination by the east by his work in everlastingly skating back.

The rest of the team were very evidently tired from their hard work of the past two weeks and did not show up in the form which has marked their season.

17 Jan 1914, Page 14 - Vancouver Daily World at Newspapers.com

Harris playing hurt and starring

2 goals and locking Throop down

Fred Harris was also under the doctor's care, and should not have been in the game, but he could not be induced to stay his hand on his old Westminster rivals. He found the net on two occasions and played a hard game, his defensive work preventing Throop from showing as well as usual.

28 Jan 1914, 10 - The Province at Newspapers.com

Nighbor and Harris doing useful checking

Harris singled out as being a tireless worker habitually.

Harris and Nighbor did some very useful checking, the former being a tireless worker, as is his habit.

18 Feb 1914, 10 - The Province at Newspapers.com

Harris all over ice, breaking up dangerous rushes

Took on anyone

Fred Harris did some magnificent checking last night and he broke up some dangerous rushes of the Victoria forwards by his efforts. He was all over the ice and no opposing player was too big for him to take a chance with.

10 Dec 1914, 4 - The Province at Newspapers.com

Harris and Portland playing rough

Knocks out 2 of Lloyd Cook's teeth.

The Portland players were guilty of considerable rough work, hooking and slashing being a specialty, and it was the result of one of Fred Harris' famous hooks that Cook lost two teeth.

6 Jan 1915, Page 11 - The Oregon Daily Journal at Newspapers.com

Harris scores 2+1 in OT loss.

Breaks up numerous rushes and holds Cyclone Taylor to 1 goal. Harris specifically cited for breaking up Taylor's rushes.

Fred Harris aided wonderfully by breaking up numerous rushes of the Vancouver players, especially those by Cyclone Taylor.

1 Feb 1915, Page 7 - The Oregon Daily Journal at Newspapers.com

Harris is so fast they call him Smokey

Fred Harris, who's work has been of high order in the Pacific Coast Hockey league this season.

He is such a fast skater they call him "Smokey" Harris.

19 Feb 1916, 10 - The Province at Newspapers.com

Amazing review as to why Harris was picked for 1916 PCHA 1st team AS. Over Dubbie Kerr and Lloyd Cook.

Harris always relentless checker

Goes at top speed from start to finish of every game

Solid offense

Willingness to work combinations with his line mates

For the left wing position Leiut. Hewitt declares he has to desert the scoring records, the following of which would mean the selection of “Dubbie” Kerr of Victoria, who leads all the wingers, but Tobin in the matter of points.

Kerr’s lack of stamina and his inability to go the full route bars him from the team.

Lloyd Cook of Vancouver has been a most useful performer in this position, but even though he is high in the scoring records he has been inconsistent in his work in the last four games.

Fred Harris of Portland has been the same old Fred in every game this season, always a persistent and relentless check and a pretty handy man to have round on the attack, too, as the figures will show.

Fred goes at top speed from start to finish and for that reason, as well as his willingness to work into combination with the other men on the forward line, gives him the call.

18 Mar 1916, 15 - Edmonton Journal at Newspapers.com

Great scouting report on Harris in 1916

Called on of the best left wings in major league hockey

Reputation for being one roughest players in hockey

Aggressive, hard checker and plays game for all he's worth

Disregards personal injury

Fred “Smokey” Harris is looked on as one of the best left wings in major league hockey.

He broke in with the Kenora Thistles, who played and won the Stanley Cup before it was put up for competition between east and west.

In 1912 Harris came to Vancouver and remained here until last year, when he was traded to Portland for Mallen. Portland had the choice of Neighbor or Harris and chose the latter.

Harris has the reputation of being one of the roughest players in the league. He is aggressive, a hard checker, and is always in the game to win. At least part of this reputation is unjustified, as he plays the game for all he is worth, entirely disregarding the risk of personal injury.

21 Mar 1916, 6 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com

Game report from game 1 of the SCF against Montreal

Harrist fastest, most valuable man on ice

Harris ragged puck on penalty kill, cited as effective hockey

Noted to be in perfect physical condition

2 and 3 Montreal players were forced to chase after him

George Kennedy calls Harris the best all around hockey player in the game

Scores goal after deking Corbeau out

Harris the fastest and most valuable man on the ice.

Portland also played superb hockey. They uncorked tow or three beautiful two man rushes and on one of these Tobin and Harris collaborated for their final goal.

Invariably one of the westerners would shoot down the wing or center and whip it out. Incidentally they aroused the ire of the Canadien supporters by carrying the puck around their net time after time.

Repeatedly they would seize the puck at center and shoot one of the their players around the goal, while the other stood still and waited an opportunity to break like a flash.

Fred Taylor’s celebrated stunts were repeatedly recalled as Harris, Oatman, or Tobin semi-circled and then dashed straight down center.

In the third Harris whirled around his own net three times in succession while the crowd roared its disapproval. It was effective hockey at the time, however, as Oatman was then with the timers and they were playing for time.


He was obviously in perfect shape as he stayed in the game practically from start to finish and was a tower of strength.

At times there were two or three Canadiens charging wildly after Harris in an effort to stop him up.


He looks one of the grandest puck chasers in the game.

George Kennedy said after the match that Harris impressed him as the best all around hockeyist he had seen this winter.

He would be a wonder with any of the NHA teams, but it is likely that the two leagues will sign a peace pact shortly and that the hockey war will end.

Both teams had several penalties, Lalonde and Tobin having been off, but they were at full strength when Tobin suddenly shot down the right wing and whipped it across to Harris, who fooled Corbeau and scored on the open net.

27 Oct 1916, 9 - The Victoria Daily Times at Newspapers.com

Harris in peak physical condition before season. Speed noted.

Mentioned as real star in season prior

Played very well in SCF season prior

With his muscles as hard as nails, and apparently in pink condition, Smoke Harris, the speed merchant of the Portland Rosebuds, and a former Vancouver player, blew into town this week and is resting up before going to the Rose City where he expects to put in the best season of his career.

Fred has taken first class care of himself this summer, having spent some time camping in the south. Open air life has done much for his general health and if condition counts for anything he should make good his promise that he will play the best hockey of his career this winter.

Harris was one of the real stars of the PCHA last season and from the reports received here was a bright and shining light on the Portland lineup in the World Series with the Canadians.

19 Nov 1916, Page 19 - The Oregon Daily Journal at Newspapers.com

More mentions of his elite speed.

Fred "Smokey" Harris, the speed demon, has been spending the summer with relatives in Vancouver BC and has recently returned with his sardonic smile and is ready to line up with the bunch at the blow of the whistle for the first practice

.



4 Jan 1917, Page 9 - The Ottawa Journal at Newspapers.com

Harris elite speed noted once again

Fred Harris registers extreme speed and skates gracefully to the rhythm of the band. It is quite some scene.

12 Feb 1917, 6 - The Vancouver Sun at Newspapers.com

1916-17 PCHA All Stars

Harris UNANIMOUS choice at RW.

He was very versatile on top of the rest of his game

Here you are:

The three officials of the PCHA have given out their choice of all-star teams for the season of 1916-17.
One noticeable feature is that all three have chosen Lehman as the best goal keeper and everyone of them has included Johnson of Portland on the defense and Harris at right wing.

Mickey Ion’s Pick

Goal – Lehman of Vancouver
Point – Lester Patrick of Spokane
Coverpoint – Johnson of Portland
Rover – Irvin of Portland
Centre – Morris of Seattle
Right Wing – Harris of Portland
Left Wing – Roberts of Vancouver
Spare Forward – Kerr of Spokane
Spare Defense – Walker of Seattle

George Irvine’s

Goal – Lehman of Vancouver
Point – Frank Patrick of Vancouver
Coverpoint – Johnson of Portland
Rover – Taylor of Vancouver
Centre – MacKay of Vancouver
Right Wing – Harris of Portland
Left Wing – Kerr of Spokane
Spare Forward – Roberts of Vancouver
Spare Defense – Lester Patrick of Spokane


Seaborn’s Selection

Goal – Lehman of Vancouver
Point – Johnson of Portland
Coverpoint – Lester Patrick of Spokane
Rover – MacKay of Vancouver
Centre – Irvin of Portland
Right Wing – Harris of Portland
Left Wing – Roberts of Vancouver
Spare Forward – Dunderdale of Portland
Spare Defense – Frank Patrick of Vancouver

31 Dec 1918, 12 - Calgary Herald at Newspapers.com

Harris called one of the most aggressive and effective players (not just winger) in the league by Eddie Oatman

Hailed by eastern writers as one of the best wingers who played in East over entire year. This was from the 1916 SCF where Portland took Montreal to the full 5 games before losing.

Fred “Smokey” Harris for the past three seasons a member of the Portland club, comes back to Vancouver in this season’s shuffle.

Harris broke in major league hockey as a member of the first Vancouver team in 1912, and although an awkward youth at that time, he has come along rapidly, and in Eddie Oatman’s opinion he is one of the most aggressive and effective players in the league.

Harris’ playing in the world series against the Canadiens in Montreal in 1916 was one of the big surprises that season, and he was hailed by eastern writers as one of the best wing men who had shown in the east that season.

1 Mar 1919, 18 - The Province at Newspapers.com

1919 PCHA AS Team

Harris make first team over Frank Foyston

Mickey Ion Gives Lehman, Mackay and Harris Places

First Team:

Hugh Lehman, Vancouver - Goal
Ernie Johnson, Victoria - Defence
Bobby Rowe, Seattle - Defence
Mickey Mackay, Vancouver - Rover
Bernie Morris, Seattle - Centre
Cully Wilson, Seattle – Right Wing
Fred Harris, Vancouver – Left Wing

15 Dec 1919, 8 - The Vancouver Sun at Newspapers.com

Harris has hook check that rivals Mickey Mackay

Speed noted

Fred Harris will have an opportunity to display his real speed at rover this winter. Last year “Smokey” developed a hook check that rivaled that of Mickey Mackay. This season, when he will be able to lie back on the defense, he should be able to use it to good advantage.

30 Dec 1919, 8 - The Vancouver Sun at Newspapers.com

Spectacular all evening w/ famous hook check

No “tank” had anything on Fred Harris when he rushed his way through the Aristocrat defence in the second period breaking Eddie Oatman’s bludgeon and knocking Wilf Loughlin’s out of his hands in the attempt.

Harris who had been playing spectacular all evening with his famous hook check, jumped into even more prominence in this period.

In an outstanding rush down the ice the Smokey one hopped, jumped and pounded his way through the Capitals defense, but a beautiful save by Fower robbed him of the crowning glory.

8 Feb 1921, 4 - The Vancouver Sun at Newspapers.com

Harris' world class speed again noted.

Harris pulls off insanely talented move and pass

Later Harris steals puck from Oatman Johnson

Shows incredible awareness and scores most sensational goal of game

Smokey Harris could easily have qualified for any international speed carnival; at times he whizzed down the ice with the footing of a phantom.

In this period Smokey Harris pulled one of the most spectacular plays that has been seen this season. Tearing in on the Victoria defense and suddenly confronted with two opposing players, he hurdled his own stick and simultaneously flicked a perfect backhand pass to Skinner; only the fact that Fowler was unusually good last night prevented the pair from scoring.

Oatman and Johnson were making Victoria's umpteenth attempt to run the tide when Smokey Harris rushed in, outwitted the pair of them and like a flash was on his way.

Smokey first made sure that his teammates were covering for the pass and when the opposing defense were about to spring into the play, he shot, and Umpire Murphy’s mitt rang up another tally.

It was the most sensational goal of the entire game.

9 Nov 1923, 8 - The Vancouver Sun at Newspapers.com

Nice overview on 1923/24

Harris injects "real kick" into his playing

Robust rushes. Loves the rough play.

Proved worthy successor to Doc Robert's.

That section of Vancouver’s hockey rooting fraternity which so often yodeled “Come on Smokey,” in the past will be forced to adopt a new yell this season, or at least to change that portion of it dealing with the stick handling genius officially known as Mr. Frederick Harris of Portland and points south.

Harris has this season attached his name to Seattle's contract and will be here on Monday night next to show Vancouver what a real star of the ice game they lost when he vanished from their immediate ken.

Smokey probably injects as much real kick into his playing as any athlete who ever wore the skates and leg pads.

His rushes are robust at times, not to say rough. When Harris gets the puck in front of him the more who gather round to dispute the matter the better he likes it.


“The rougher the going the better” is Smokey’s motto and with it all he is not deliberately unmindful of the ethics of hockey. It is just his style.

Harris has been with the Maroons since the days of the Portland team. Always he has played the left wing and he proved a worthy successor to Doc Roberts, although he lacked the medico’s uncanny precision in shooting from the left on a rising mark for the goal.

Last year he injured a thumb on the prairies and hardly go back into his stride during the season.
He has been playing on the coast since 1912 and Muldoon was well please to get him when Bernie Morris migrated to the prairies.

4 Feb 1919, 8 - The Vancouver Sun at Newspapers.com

Harris called hard checking wing

Bottled up Foyston and Cully Wilson

Off night shooting (still had 3 points) but otherwise dominant

21 Dec 1920, 24 - The Province at Newspapers.com

Harris holding down Bernie Morris who didn't register a point.

18 Jan 1921, 19 - The Province at Newspapers.com

Harris and co. singled out for checking Seattle to standstill

Harris had 4 assists

Harris shows WORLD CLASS speed

His performance called best in league history to that point?

15 Mar 1921, 20 - The Province at Newspapers.com

Harris had the skill/ability to go megatron offensively.

Harris star of Vancouver.

Harris getting some dirty jabs in.

Bernie Morris checked to standstill by Harris.

22 Mar 1921, 25 - The Province at Newspapers.com

Harris AS USUAL, best man on the ice

Back checked other team to standstill

Iron Man

25 Mar 1921, 23 - The Province at Newspapers.com

Harris scores a goal+assist early in game

Took a 3 min penalty (not clipped)

Harris and co. speed noted

Harris not being intimidated by Eddie Gerrard and bouncing some Sens players of his own

Harris gives best displays of back checking seen this winter

29 Mar 1921, 4 - The Vancouver Sun at Newspapers.com

Harris levels Frank Nighbor (sky high) with good clean body check

Harris literally said to have played both wings at once due to the RW playing subpar

1 Apr 1921, 28 - The Province at Newspapers.com

Harris drawing Ottawa into targeting him rather than the team.

Harris keeps getting pounded and keeps coming back and going right through Ottawa

Clashed with Gerard multiple times.

23 Dec 1921, 17 - The Seattle Star at Newspapers.com

Harris rated as fastest skater in entire PCHA.

12 Dec 1922, 8 - The Vancouver Sun at Newspapers.com

Harris dropped back to blue line in 3rd period with success

Harris giving strenuous body checks to keep Cougars honest

2 Jan 1924, 10 - The Vancouver Sun at Newspapers.com

Harris checking Alf Skinner

3 Nov 1924, 10 - The Vancouver Sun at Newspapers.com

Scouting report in 1924 (13th season)

Harris revels in tough going and heavy body checking

Feared player

Can play LW or D and shone well there in previous season

24 Dec 1924, 12 - The Vancouver Sun at Newspapers.com

Even in 1924, this late in his career, Harris is said to have few, if any peers in back checking

 

[Dreakmur]

Harris is called at multiple points in his career without equal as a back checker.

Were those quotes referring to his peers in the PCHA? Were they referring to the whole west coast? Were they referring to all of Canada? The world?

Each of those has a significantly different implication.

His hook check was noted to rival MacKay and is "famous".

Based on what you've presented, I don't think there's any doubt that Harris was one of the best defensive players of the PCHA. I'm still struggling to place him in world-wide context.

Eddie Oatman, one of the toughest players of the day literally said Harris was the roughest/toughest guy in league.

Was Oatman one of the toughest players of his time? That's news to me, and I've owned him multiple times.


I don't think a comparison to Baldy Northcott is unreasonable.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Sid Abel

Since this was brought up, I just want to point out that the original Production Line was only together for 4 years, and Abel was widely considered the best member of the line for the first 2 years it was together. Gordie Howe didn't explode until the 3rd year the Production Line was together, and Abel still kept pace with Lindsay then. It wasn't until their 4th and final year together that Abel finished way behind Lindsay too.

This is a little bit of a cut-and-paste job of a post I made during the HOH Top Centers project:

In 1948-49, Sid Abel won the Hart Trophy. He was named "Hockey's Man of the Year" by Sports Magazine. Ted Lindsay won the Art Ross this season, but the well-rounded Abel got all the credit.

In 1949-50, Sid Abel was 4th in Hart voting, 1st on the Red Wings. Dink Carroll reported in 1-20-1951 Montreal Gazette that Sport Magazine's board of experts voted, by a wide margin, Maurice Richard as top player of 1950, with Chuck Rayner (the Hart winner) and Abel also mentioned.

Abel was a 1st Team All Star both these years.

Abel's leadership is widely credited with helping hold Detroit together after Howe's life-threatening injury in the 1950 playoffs as they won Abel's 2nd Cup.

1950-51 is when Howe emerged to shatter NHL records. Abel still kept pace with Lindsay as a scorer though and was a 2nd Team All Star.

1951-52 is when IMO, Abel really started falling off a cliff. 7th in NHL scoring, but way behind Howe and Lindsay and not an All-Star. At this point, they were probably carrying him. He was traded to Chicago the following year to make room for the younger Delvecchio and did very little there.
______

And of course, Howe and Lindsay were 13 and 17 years old in the minor leagues, when Abel was a 2nd Team All-Star in 1942, which he followed with a Smythe-worthy playoffs in 1943.

I don't disagree with any of this.

But again, Abel peaked with 2 ELITE HOF'ers who played a very, very heavy game. They played a 200 foot game. Lafleur doesn't play that type of game. At all. I mean it's Lafleur so you're talking a top 30 player of all time but his style is not like the players Abel played his best hockey with.

It's not significant but little details like this add up IMO.

This is why I put a huge focus on chemistry and trying to limit any questions in that regard. My top 3 lines have literal real life connections. Balderis fits Olmstead-Beliveau quite well. Harris fits Bowie-Russell about as perfectly as anyone will in this or any draft. Westfall upgrades an already lethal and proven shut down combination in Gainey-Jarvis. The real life combinations I have either got as good (Balderis) or better (Harris and Westfall) line mates than they were used to skating with in real life.

Shore and Lake anchored the back end of a dynasty and did it for the coach they have here in this series. Throw in Larry Robinson giving all the defensemen a bit of a boost. The intuitiveness favors Pittsburgh very much in this series, like all series IMO. The little nuances and unconscious connections that you can't deny when looking at players who played a long, long time together and peaked/dominated together.

Olmstead and Beliveau played their best hockey together. It's backed up by the numbers. Bowie and Russell dominated the first decade of hockey together, offensively. Gainey-Jarvis anchored one of the greatest shut down units of all time, being key pieces to a dynasty.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Were those quotes referring to his peers in the PCHA? Were they referring to the whole west coast? Were they referring to all of Canada? The world?

Each of those has a significantly different implication.



Based on what you've presented, I don't think there's any doubt that Harris was one of the best defensive players of the PCHA. I'm still struggling to place him in world-wide context.



Was Oatman one of the toughest players of his time? That's news to me, and I've owned him multiple times.


I don't think a comparison to Baldy Northcott is unreasonable.

I'm assuming the PCHA but can't be 100% sure. It's tough because there were multiple leagues, different rules, etc. But at the very least, he was in the conversation for best defensive player out west, over a decade + long stretch of time. That's very significant IMO.

Obviously he's not Frank Nighbor, or Jack Walker or Tommy Phillips. I think those guys, Nighbor at least is a legendary defensive player. They are about the only players, pre consolidation that I'd put clearly above a Harris, without hesitation. And I absolutely think Harris provides more offense than Walker and Phillips.

There are very few players in the master bio thread, east or west, that have the sheer volume or peak comments about defensive ability. And again, stretched out over an entire career. He didn't develop down the line into a preeminent defensive force. It was noted very early in his career. Heck, the 1912 AS nod as a reserve player was specifically due to his fantastic checking abilities. By 1913 he was already being called "without equal" and in 1924 (the last season) he was still called without equal as a back checker.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Re: Bob Gainey shadowing Lafleur - one typical way to deal with this would be to double-shift Lafleur. Ken Hitchcock rode his top players hard, so this wouldn't be out of the question for him to do.

If you look at NJ's ice-time charts, the team is already set up to double-shift Lafleur on the various other lines. It's the way to get him the most ice-time from our forwards, despite the fact that Krutov-Abel will take some penalty killing shifts. And I definitely don't want PP specialist Tim Kerr to see much ice time at even strength anyway.

It's not just the 4th line that Lafleur could play on - am I wrong to see Bobby Bauer as a poor man's version of Lafleur? Bauer was a flashy scorer who could shoot and pass, and was known as the primary puck handler on the Kraut Line . Maybe Hitchock could swap Bauer and Lafleur for a few shifts to mix things up?

There are a few options here. Even Weiland might see some shifts with Lafleur - the benefit of a two-way third line is that it makes shuffling the lineup more effective than if Lafleur was playing with someone like Jarvis.

Not saying that NJ necessarily has to shuffle the lineup; just saying that it's an option.

And double shifting doesn't really help Lafleur IMO. In fact it probably hurts.

One, NJ is coming off a grueling 7 game series against Howe and Orillia. Pittsburgh is already more rested by a few days.

Even if you get away from Gainey, you are still almost always going to see Harris or Olmstead and double shifting an already tired Lafleur who's going to be leaned on very hard by Gainey, is playing right into the hands of a team that has so much defensive ability on the flanks.

Even swapping him with Bauer or moving him across the ice doesn't get him away from Westfall, Russell or Wilson.

Like I said in my F overview, trying to keep pace with a team like you on the wings, in terms of offensive output, was a fool's errand. But I could make life very, very difficult for the Lafleur's Krutov's and Bauer's of the world.

NJ's best offensive players are simply up against a lot more resistance IMO, not just peak, but depth.

Is Cooney Weiland and his very small, not physical self going to really put the clamps down on Beliveau, who Ted Lindsay said was the toughest player in the 1950's NHL to check? A man that was huge, had a huge reach, expert stick handling, was physical, good in the dot, above average defensively and possesses elite offense.

And speaking of Weiland, again, this is important to note. One, he's not getting PP time with NJ which eats into that 78.9 VsX that gets thrown around. And the players he is playing with more than not, Leswick and March provide far less offense than a Dit Clapper or the other Boston F's that Weiland would have skated with in the 1930's, again, eating into his offensive cap.

 

[BenchBrawl]

If you think Duncan is in Joe Hall's class, then no, those two aren't either, because Joe Hall played in the same league as Shore and Lake and I think the information we have on him shows him to be clearly better. Maybe Duncan-Cook is an attractive comparison to Shore-Lake, because they were a real pairing, but maybe Bobby Rowe is a better comparable to them?

I think Duncan is in Hall's class, but I'm not sure. I haven't done a systematic review of their career, and am basing this strictly on impression from reading random game reports. I suspect I crossed path with Duncan's descriptions when he was at his absolute peak, by accident, so that would skew my perception.

I feel Duncan-Cook is truly one of the greatest pairings of all-time if we include longevity (like Top 10), but again that could be a skewed perception for the same reason as above, not to mention I might just not know enough of Shore-Lake to have them where they deserve.

 

[ImporterExporter]

I have a question too: What do we know on the Stanley vs. Béliveau match-up?

This this line of thinking bugs me. This isn't the first series somebody has used a past Toronto player (singularly) to try and argue against Beliveau and I see that as an issue.

Stanley wasn't even the best defensemen on his own team most years. He's not Tim Horton physically or defensively. Toronto has a very specific system, very specific C's that were on the more physical side, elite defensively. Keon, Kelly, Pulford, Armstrong, Duff, etc, etc. Lafleur provides little defensively and basically nothing checking wise. Is Bauer anything special there? I don't think so. Krutov? On the fore check and in front of the net, sure. But defensively? He's way behind numerous Pittsburgh wingers/players.

Weiland is a great defensive C but his lack of physicality, his very small stature is a major mismatch against a huge player like Beliveau, who could skate, push anyone around with his size and physical nature in the offensive zone. Ricci was a tough customer but he's got 3 seasons that are anything to write home about defensively (3, 4, 4, Selke finishes). Abel is a solid defensive presence but again, nothing special if we're talking 1st line vs 1st line.

I'll get to the defensemen tonight but Earl Seibert's rushing led to him being out of position more than a few times and Flash Hollett is quite the liability as a top 4 Dman in this match up IMO. Pittsburgh just came through a 6 game series win against a team with the top 4 D of Stevens/Blake/Day/Suter w/ Clarke and Kasper down the middle defensively.

Ted Lindsay said Beliveau was the toughest man to check i the league.

Murph Chamberlain and Wilfie Cude talk about how dominant Beliveau is.

Don Simmons says Beliveau has hardest shot in league and is 2nd hardest player to stop behind only Howe.

 

[BenchBrawl]

This this line of thinking bugs me. This isn't the first series somebody has used a past Toronto player (singularly) to try and argue against Beliveau and I see that as an issue.

Stanley wasn't even the best defensemen on his own team most years. He's not Tim Horton physically or defensively.

This is true, however I recall Canadiens1958 making a strong push that Allan Stanley was very underrated, especially in containing Gordie Howe in the playoffs. But the search function doesn't work for me so I can't find his posts.

 

[ImporterExporter]

This is true, however I recall Canadiens1958 making a strong push that Allan Stanley was very underrated, especially in containing Gordie Howe in the playoffs. But the search function doesn't work for me so I can't find his posts.

Oh I think Stanley is underrated. But one has to look at the overall picture and team around him (or any player).

That's why I built the team the way I did. Most of the best rosters saw really strong wingers. That's not an accident as we've all went round and round on the meta charts and mathematical undressing of the ATD.

Moving Lafleur up, down, left, right, doesn't get him away from really, really good shutdown wingers. Most of whom are great/elite skaters which wasn't an accident either when you look back at the division I came out of.

Jarvis peaked as the best defensive C in the world in the 70's/80's era and was in the conversation for years beyond that. He's an iron man, you know he's going to show up every night. He was a great skater himself, scrappy, besting some very tough customers in the 70's (Clarke and Esposito come to mind immediately). He gives Pittsburgh an advantage any time he jumps in the dot. This is a guy who waxed Clarke head to head in a SCF on faceoffs. Bowman specifically talks about (posted in last series thread) how much better Jarvis made Montreal defensively and in the dot and on the kill.

He was a rookie who quickly found his footing in the NHL and was a key secondary piece on 4 straight title teams. Our old friend Killion (again posted in last series thread) talked about how dominant Gainey-Jarvis were at getting top stars/lines off their game having watched their entire careers, and he wasn't even a Habs fan. And now you add in Westfall? A top 5 defensive winger of all time easily. IMO the best PK F ever when you factor in usage, how dominant the teams he played on were at killing penalties and his scoring averages while on the kill are elite).

And that's just the 3rd line. We're not even touching on Harris and Russell who are among the best defensive F's in their era. Olmstead was well above average, was used on the kill by Irvin, just a physical beast on the boards. Beliveau can be counted on to be solid defensively. Westwick has a strong defensive rep during his career, looking at his bio. I'd certainly label him above average here. Both 4th line wingers are responsible and bring so much physicality and checking to the mix. There is next to nothing written about Bowie back checking one way or the other. He's just an average guy. Balderis being the only legit below average defensive player.

Not forgetting the elite shut down line of Pitt don't take penalties either. That's a key piece of information.

I've been vocal for quite some time about defense getting less and less appreciated as the ATD moved towards a more mathematical based game. It's harder to quantify defensive impact so therefor it's "easier" to argue against in terms of value.

I'm trying to put money where my mouth is on that matter with Pittsburgh.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Defensemen: Slight Advantage New Jersey


I'm a big fan of Seibert. I think he's underrated a bit all time. He's slightly above Keith here, largely based on AS recognition/longevity.

Seibert had the big run to the title with Chicago in 38.

Just a really strong 2 way defensemen, though he was noted to take himself out of position with some of his rushing (pictures below). Big, tough as nails, great checker. Great fighter, though Coulter did whip him in one instance.

Originally had him 12 spots above Keith and I'd still have them separated by about that much today.

A few things to consider regarding Seibert.

Scouting report from 1936.

One, Seibert is noted to be out of position too often due to his rushing whereas Coulter is rarely
caught out of position. Now to be clear. I'm not saying Coulter is as good or close to Seibert in an all time light. Just interesting to see such a detailed overview of 2 players that happen to be on both rosters here. At least in 1936 it seems Seibert was someone who might be prone to counters.

10 Feb 1936, 19 - The Herald-News at Newspapers.com

Coulter noted to have many similarities to Earl Seibert

Both hard body checkers

Both excel as puck carries, though Seibert is better overall scorer

Seibert noted, "is a better scorer, but in attempting to score he often has left openings for the opposition to break through"

"Coulter, while not as dangerous a shot, rarely is caught out of position"

Two, Seibert's offensive production drop in the postseason and Keith's BIG jump.

• Seibert scored at a 0.42 clip during the regular season (276 in 657).

• That number drops to 0.29 during the postseason (19 in 66).

• That's not a good thing coming from the #1 and primary puck mover.

• Taking a look at Duncan Keith, we can see he scored at a 0.54 clip in the regular season (610 in 1138)

• Now in the postseason he climbs considerably to 0.64 in the postseason (81 in 126)

• That's a 23% swing in favor of Pittsburgh in terms of offensive production out of our respective #1.

• Going further if you remove Seibert's 7 points in 10 games in 1938 he is now at a 0.21 clip

• Taking out Keith's 2015 drops him to 0.59 which is still well above his regular season clip

And I know scoring dropped in 1930's playoff hockey. But the flip side to that coin is most defensemen aren't seeing huge increases in postseason offensive production like Keith has over the last 10+ years. He simply raises his game across all areas of the ice in the playoffs.

Chara's offense drops slightly. Letang drops slightly. Carlson drops slightly. Hedman drops slightly. Piets drops slightly. Josi bombs. Hard to tell w/ Burns due to the F/D thing.

Doughtly (+9) is the only other top flight guy that has seen a big uptick in offensive production from the blue line.

• I've already outlined how many minutes Keith can log in the playoffs.

• He's coming off a longer rest than Seibert.

• Pittsburgh used 7 D in the last series (3 games) meaning Keith would have already been taxed slightly less than normal.

• As I said before, I am not getting overzealous and calling this is a wash but it's close. Seibert still gets the overall edge w/AS nods and longevity.

• I think when you factor in those things above, 7 game series, historical evidence of Keith raising the bar considerably in those environments, he's only slightly behind Seibert here.

I have Coulter SLIGHTY ahead of Stanley.


Think Art Coulter wasn't a major impact player in his own end?

• 1933: First full year in Chicago, the Hawks are 3rd (out of 9) in GA.

• 1934: Chicago is #1 in league in GA (Won SC teaming with Lionel Conacher)

• 1935: Chicago is #1 in league in GA (3rd in Hart Voting, 2nd team AS)

• 1936: Chicago is #2 in the league in GA (Coulter traded midseason to NY who finished 3rd in league in GA)

• 1937: NYR are 2nd out of 8

• 1938: NYR are 2nd out of 8 (Takes over Captain, 2nd team AS)

• 1939: NYR are 2nd out of 8 (2nd team AS)

• 1940: NYR are 1st out of 7 (Won SC, 2nd team AS)

• 1941: NYR are 4th out of 7

• 1942: NYR are 3rd out of 7

• Coulter's teams were almost all elite/great in preventing goals and he had a big hand in that.

• 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd 4th is a pretty convincing picture I'd say.

• Coulter is a 4 time 2nd team AS vs 3 for Stanley and never played on a dynasty surrounded by numerous better players.

• Coulter was the man in Chicago when he finished 3rd in the Hart voting. He was the ace defender for the Rangers over players like Pratt and Ott Heller.

• Both played in in talent rich environments as far as blue liners go.

• Coulter was a Hart finalist in 1936 (3rd) and was voted 1st team AS my managers (writers picked Seibert). Given he finished above Seibert in Hart voting and was 1st team picked by managers I think he can be credited with a 1st team nod this year or certainly more valuable than Seibert.

• Coulter took over the captaincy from Bill Cook, not a small order and won a title in 1940 wearing the C.

Some highlights of what I have stashed

1933

Already one of the best young Dmen in game.

Tall, husky, speedy

1934

Lester Patrick calls Coulter ideal defensemen

1935

Conny Smythe calls Coulter best Dman in league

1936

Coulter famed for expert body checking and brainy defensive play

1936

Coulter "near perfect blackline blocker"

"One of brainiest defencemen on the circuit"

1937

Coulter's value noted to Rangers

1937

Coulter sets up game winning goal in postseason vs Toronto with steal and then sparkling dash and pass to Pratt.

1938

Coulter and Babe Seibert hard bumpers.

Have become vital parts of the clubs highly systematic attacks.

1939

Coulter knocks Flash Hollet out of the game. Keep your head up sir!

1940:

Coulter noted to have very few off nights

As he goes so do the Rangers (and they won a title this year)

1942

Old man Coulter plays 40 minutes

Held defense together with outstanding performance (win)

Overall, I think the top pairings are razor thin.

• If someone wants to give NJ a very slight nod here, no worries, but I think when you factor in Keith being the best playoff performer here by a pretty large margin, him (and Coulter) being far more rested than Seibert/Stanley, and the big uptick in offensive production for Keith vs the big drop for Seibert and I feel good about Pittsburgh chances going head to head.

• You can clearly see the impact Coulter had on the many sterling defensive squads he was on.

• Almost every team Coulter back stopped was great/elite in goals against.

• Coulter was a more vital part of his teams than Stanley was to the dynasty Leafs.

• He's got a better AS record, was a Hart finalist, in a league that had Shore, Clancy, Seibert, Clapper, Conacher, Goodfellow so not weak by any stretch.

• And lastly, consider the forechecking of Pittsburgh.

• Gainey, Westfall were legendary at this.

• Harris clearly can check and skate at an elite level.

• Olmstead will rattle your bones.

• Kunitz and Wilson are built to make opposing D remember them.

• Even Beliveau in the 50's was a heavy fore checker and given his sheer size won't be forgotten.

I think NJ is a notch above Pitt on the 2nd pairing but it's not the gap we faced against Baltimore

• Lutchenko could pass for a low end #2 here i think. Slanted towards the defensive end of the spectrum but I'm not sure how good/great he was in the grand scheme. The bio's aren't exactly deep with info a few general overviews stating he played very well defensively.

• Next to Flash Hollet, is there enough D on the 2nd pairing for NJ? I'm not sure but I know Pittsburgh has a stronger top 4 in terms of defensive acumen.

• Speaking of Flash, I think he's being overrated.

• A good bit of his offensive value came at F and his biggest/most notable season came in a war depleted 1944-45.

• You had players like Joe Carveth, Ab DeMarco, and Clint Smith in the top 10 scoring. Gus Bodnar finished 4th in assists. This is one of the most skeptical seasons (and periods of hockey) for me, and many others, in hockey history.

• Hollet played a big chunk of his career at F.

• He's not exactly noted as an air tight defensive player.

• Even found an instance where he got caught with his head down and was knocked out of the game by Pittsburgh's very own Art Coulter (saw that above).

Hamby Shore is quite underrated with what I unearthed IMO. I think him a pretty strong #3.

• His reputation in Ottawa was that of a borderline superstar.

• Was well known across Canada.

• Cyclone Taylor level wheels and that's noted across the overwhelming portion of his career.

• His longevity as a top cover point in some very competitive leagues is fantastic.

• At numerous points he was said to have been playing like the leagues best defensemen (over Sprague Cleghorn in one instance) or MVP of the NHL (1918, his final season).

• He was an elite stickhandler, very strong puck rusher, and offensive producer, again noted many times in bio

• So good in the SC challenges, locking down players like Cyclone Taylor.

• And Pittsburgh has put him in a position that should see his maximum peak w/Lake to his right and Green behind the bench.

Speaking of Fred Lake, I wanted to highlight him a bit as I've been trying to focus on a few different players each series. Skating was a big, big part of Pittsburgh's plan, along with defensive ability.


7 Mar 1908, Page 2 - The Ottawa Journal at Newspapers.com

Fred Lake compared to Tom Phillips.

Maravel at checking back, great stickhandler and heavy check.

Noted to be fastest winger in the IHL.

Can stop and turn as fast as any man in hockey.

27 Nov 1908, 4 - The Gazette at Newspapers.com

Fred Lake and Cyclone kicked out of International League for being too physical.

9 Dec 1908, 5 - The Gazette at Newspapers.com

Lake scouting report. short but well built, fast as lightning.

Noted star F from the International league which wasn't void of talent at the time.

5 Jan 1909, Page 12 - The Ottawa Journal at Newspapers.com

Renfrew trying to steal Lake away

Montreal Gazette - Jan 7th, 1909 (game played on 6th)
The Montreal Gazette - Google News Archive Search

Lake said to be big improvement over Pulford and team improves drastically to back it up.

Stars with Cylone Taylor.

Dominant defensively, and offensively.

Puts major league hit on Moose Johnston.Which in turn goads Johnston into taking a dumb penalty and Ottawa scores.

Lake takes dumb penalty as well but fortunately doesn't hurt the Sens.

"The summing up of the merits of the team as compared with last year's appears to be that, while Lake is a big improvement over Pulford, and the defence consequently much stronger, the (forward) line is not as good.

Taylor and Lake were the stars of the team, and it was their continual rushing that gave the forwards a chance to keep up with Wanderers in scoring. Taylor did tremendous amount of work, but as usual, showed poor judgement when he was close in, shooting wildly as a rule. However, his work in carrying the disc counted for a lot.

Ross broke away and got through all except Lake at point, where he was stopped. Lake showed with a burst of speed that carried him the length of the rink until he passed out to Gilmour, who missed the puck in front of the Wanderer goal. Smail followed with a dash up the side of the rink and looked dangerous until he was tripped heavily by Taylor who was sent off for five minutes.

With the teams playing even strength, Lake made a brilliant run up the ice and scored after evading every Wanderer who tried to stop him. When Lake was almost on top of the Wanderer nets, Hern jumped out to check him, but the Ottawa point man was too alert, and fired the puck past him into the cage, Time 3:29.

Lake shook up Johnston with a hard check against the boards, but the big wing player was able to resume after a short rest.

Then Johnston received a five minute penalty for tripping Lake, and with the teams playing six a side, Gilmour scored on a pass from Walsh.

Shortly after play was resumed Lake was given three minutes for tripping Smail.

With a brilliant rush, Lake dodged the whole Wanderer team, and when close to Hern cut in a fast shot, which was cleverly stopped by the Wanderer goal-tend.

Following a face (off), near the Wanderer goal, Smith had and end to end run and shot on Lesueur. Then Taylor, with a great burst of speed went up the ice and passed to Lake, who scored.

Taylor was unable to rise without assistance after he had crashed into the fence at the southwest corner of the rink. When he resumed he was apparently badly used up and dropped back to the point position.

Lake who was seemingly the freshest man on the Ottawa team outside of the goalkeeper, relieved him."

25 Jan 1909, 8 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com

Lake with huge game.

Rushed with forwards whenever the occasion required his presence.

Lake played "one of grandest games ever seen here"

Efforts of Quebec men were at times "amusing" as Lake would deftly poke the puck to one side or check it right out of their sticks.

1 Feb 1909, 8 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com

Lake at point steady, reliable, seldom leaving position.

Body checking effective at all times.

He and Stuart were always on hand to save situation after Taylor over skated.

Lake showed class when crisis came

15 Dec 1909, Page 2 - The Ottawa Journal at Newspapers.com

Fred Lake is a modern Dman (1909). Wicked shot. Few men care to get in his way.

Ottawa Citizen - Jan 14th, 1910 (game played on Jan 13th)
Ottawa Citizen - Google News Archive Search

Lake and Ottawa dominate Art Ross' All Montreal 7 in a CHA vs NHA match up.

More than half the goals Ottawa scored were started by Lake's rushes (versatility)

Big hit by Lake breaks the nose of Jack Marks.

"Lake scored the remaining goal in the fifteen for Ottawa, but his usefulness to the team on the defence was a good deal greater than that would indicate for in the second half more than half of the Ottawa goals were scored on rushes started by him."

"Only one player was hurt seriously enough to necessitate his withdrawl from the ice. That was Jack Marks, of the All Montreal, who had his nose broken when he went down in a collision with Lake after the fourth goal had been scored."

Ottawa Citizen - Jan 31st 1910 (game played on 29th)
Ottawa Citizen - Google News Archive Search

Lake/Shore in magnificent form.

Green's "modern" teamwork noted

"At the other end of the rink Lesueur, Lake and Shore were in magnificent form. Lesueur stopped in miraculous fashion time and time again, while Lake never dashed down the ice without leaving Walsh and Stuart to look after the position. Stuart and Shore acted in a like manner, and when either of the Ottawa wings left his side of the rink, either Walsh, Stuart, Lake or Shore dashed up to fill the breach and take the pass. Such is the modern exemplification of team work, the secret of the Ottawa club's success.

Art Throop knocked out with massive hit by Shore:

Art Throop collided with Hamby Shore and injured his side, having to drop off after lying on the ice unnoticed for about two minutes.

Lake accidentally scores one into his own net and then redeems himself right away with great work and another retro assist:

Ronan nursed the puck down the rink celverly shooting form a sharp angle. The puck landed at Lake's feet and in trying to clear Fred accidently batted it into the Ottawa goal. Ronan of course getting the credit. Lake immediately redeemed himself by carrying the rubber up the ice and snapping it across to Roberts for Ottawa's third goal."

Other snippets:

"Petie Green believes Ottawas will go through the seasons without a defeat."

"Hamby Shore's superb work is almost enough to make one forget the phenomenal Taylor (Cyclone)."

7 Feb 1910, Page 4 - The Ottawa Journal at Newspapers.com

Lake scores game winning goal on brilliant solo rush.

Noted to have broken up many rushes on the defensive end.

Drew a tripping penalty which led to a PP goal.

Ottawa Citizen - Feb 14th 1910 (game played on 12th) - Ottawa wins in one of the greatest hockey games ever played in history to date.
Ottawa Citizen - Google News Archive Search

Fred Lake bested Frank Patrick head to head, namely defensively speaking

Both named best point men in the entire league being very aggressive

Shore played a stronger defensive game than Cyclone Taylor

Already in 1910 Shore noted to have turned into a "sterling point man"

Idol of Ottawa fans

"Between the work of Fred Lake and Frank Patrick, the rival point players there was little difference. Both rushed repeatedly and while Patrick was more successful as far as scoring went and while he got within shooting distance oftener than the Ottawa point man, Lake was perhaps better on the defensive, Patrick erring when he rambled away from his position in the second overtime period.

Lake and Patrick are the two best point men in the National association, both being very aggressive.

Shore also had magnificent game.

The two cover points, Fred Taylor and Hamby Shore were totally different in their play, Shore giving the greatest exhibition that he has yet put up in the position. Hamby's blocking was superb and while not as spectacular as Taylor, he appeared more effective this being due to perhaps to the fact that he did not receive the attention devoted upon the Cyclone.

Shore has developed into a sterling point man, his scoring of the first goal a beautiful piece of work. Shore has become the idol of Ottawan fans, his every move being cheered as enthusiastically as the other Ottawa rooters hooted those of Taylor.

On the whole the defenses were about equal, Ottawa however, as previously explained showing the better staying qualities."

Ottawa Citizen - Jan 23rd, 1911 (game played on 21st)
Ottawa Citizen - Google News Archive Search

Lake blocks Lalonde and forces Newsy to take a dumb penalty. Noted for his physical play. Shore gets concussed and comes right back in.

"Lalonde went off for throwing the rubber with his hand after a rush which Lake had blocked with a clever body check, and with one man to the good Ottawa proceeded to out-general the visitors."

Lake with great defensive work and his physical game stuck out:

"Fred Lake was reliable at point and while he did not get down the ice so often as in the game against Wanderers or Renfrew he did a great deal of effective blocking and used his body in such a way as to fill the visiting forwards with respect.

Shore played well but got hurt in the 2nd period, concussion, but like all those lunatics, came back in almost right away.

"Hamby Shore was in great fettle (condition) until the second period when he fell head foremost on the ice (concussion). It was the first time that he had even been injured in a game and Shore was no sooner off than he resumed. Afterwards Hamby was not quite himself although he worked like a little horse."

Ottawa Citizen - Jan 30th, 1911 (game played on 28th)
Ottawa Citizen - Google News Archive Search

Another monster game for both. Shore very physical. Lake took a licking and kept ticking and apparently his nickname was Cupid. Shore played goalie for a spell.

"Ottawa defense outstanding feature:

"The oustanding feature of the first period was the stellar work of the Ottawa defence, Shore in particular. Lesueur and Lake blocked several dangerous attacks and the Ottawa forwards, through offside passing lost four or five beautiful opportunities.

"The Ottawa defence was absolutely invulnerable"

"Wanderers had evidently found the Ottawa defence far too strong, for they were laying around their own goal, evidently prepared to adopt "safe" tactics.

"The greatest finish I ever saw commented referee Bowie. "That Ottawa team cannot be beaten"

SHORE WAS BRILLIANT:

"Next to Kerr, Hamby Shore was the most conspicuous player on the Ottawa team. He blocked and rushed in an electrifying manner and would had three or four goals, but for Hern's heady work. Shore did as much rushing as the forwards and repeatedly slammed the big Wanderer men into the boards, depriving them of the puck.

Fred Lake was superb from beginning to end. Marty Walsh, afterwards remarking that "Cupid" (Lake) was the "gamest man he had ever seen". Lake took a heap of punishment but refused to be suppressed. His forehead was painfully gashed and covered with plaster and though he was forced on several occasions to take the count he stayed right with it until the bell rang. Lake was responsible for the 4th goal. Riddy scoring after Fred had carried it down.

Hamby Shore played goal for a spell:

One of the features of the game was Hamby Shore's attempt to score in the third period when he, while playing goal, stopped Marshall's shot and went from end to end."

1 Feb 1911, 8 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com

Captain Percy Lesueur says the defensive pairing of Lake and Shore is the best combination he's every played behind. In the spring of 1911 he would have already had both Harvey Pulford and Cyclone Taylor in front of him as teammates in prior seasons. Speaks volumes as to the impact that pairing had on the Silver Seven dominance.

Despite being smaller, they use their bodies more effectively than Cyclone Taylor, Moose Johnson, and others. Noted as clever blockers.

Pete Green mentions that modern hockey players must have 6 capable forwards (people who can carry the puck). This is noted to be perhaps their greatest strength.

Ottawa Citizen - Feb 6th, 1911 (game played on 4th)
Ottawa Citizen - Google News Archive Search

Lake another elite game.

Note as having the speed of Cyclone Taylor.

Does NOT lose his head when he gets near opponents net with puck

"Fred Lake was there with the goods, as usual and his brilliant work often saved the team where a dangerous attack was imminent. At no time during the game was Lake more dangerous than the overtime play, when the tired Quebec men battered themselves against his stonewall defence in vain, only to see his barred sweater vanishing in a cloud of blue and white forms in the direction of the Quebec nets.

Hamby Shore came back for Ottawa three minutes later and hung up a goal after a quick dart from center ice. The first period ended one to one. Lake came down like a wolf on the fold in the second period and batted in past Moran, who was slumbering at the switch. These rushes of Lake's were very effective all through the game.

He has the speed of Fred Taylor and does not lose his head he gets near the opponents goal with the puck."

Ottawa Citizen - Feb 20th, 1911 (game played on 18th)
Ottawa Citizen - Google News Archive Search

Lake stone wall and Quebec learned early to respect his checking and to keep away from the boards.

Shore star of the night.

"Fred Lake was a stone wall at point and Quebec players learned early in the game to respect his ability to block a man and also to keep away from the boards.

Hamby Shore at cover was probably the star of the night. Shore's block, intercepting, rushing, stick handling and shooting indeed formed a treat for the crowd. The game little cover point never played more effectively.

It was feared that the Ottawas would not have Fred Lake for Saturday's game. However they managed to arrange it, Lake playing beautiful hockey."

Like I said earlier, I think NJ sees a win on the 2nd pairing but the gap is not near as bad as the one Pittsburgh faced last series vs Baltimore.

• I think chemistry is very important especially on the blue line. You're the last line of defense. Knowing your partner like the back of your own hand is going to give Pittsburgh an edge in communication, knowing where each player will be on the ice, tendencies, etc.

• Both were star forwards before the became strong defensemen, Shore especially.

• Either can rush or pass based on what is in the bio.

• Versatility, both players being what I'd call two way defensemen.

• Lake played a very heavy, aggressive game. He was very fast, big, and a lot of folks stayed out of his way.

• Shore had elite wheels, and stick handling for the time perios and was well above average in the other offensive areas.

• Shore and Lake spent 4 years skating together with 1910 and 11 being very dominant runs for Ottawa.

As for the bottom paring I think it's a straight wash.

• After reading up on Pervukhin I'd give him a nod as he and Ivanov seem to have roughly the same type of peaks. Ivanov seems to have been a more explosive player but Perv steadier.

• The difference being Pervukhin did it in the 70's/80's. Now obviously he would have been surrounded by superior talent especially internationally but the era is what gives Vasili the edge here.

• I'll go to bat all day for Girardi. His AS record is better than Young's who played in an 8/9 team league.

• Those 3 AS finishes of 7, 9, 10th aren't very good and Girardi peaked with a 6th place finish.

• Girardi also brings multiple high end abilities to the ATD.

• Shot blocking is absolutely elite as you can argue him the best in that category over the last decade plus. Shot blocking is another key factor for Pittsburgh. Keith was good at that, Ivanov noted to be strong in this area. Orpik if he plays is also very strong here.

• PK ability is certainly great given his usage/impact over the last decade plus.

• He's just a rock steady, stay at home warrior. He fills a role perfectly next to the more mobile and adventurous Ivanov

Final Thoughts:

• NJ's slight advantage comes from their win on the 2nd pairing

• Pittsburgh's D is more rested due to shorter Conference finals and Orpik playing in 3 of the games

• Keith is only a shade behind Seibert IMO

• DK is the best playoff performer on either blue line by a wide margin and has a history of coming up aces in the biggest spots

• Keith's offensive spike in the postseason is a big, big bullet point here especially seeing NJ's #1 D drop pretty significantly.

• Seibert's rushing may leave a few holes going the other way in this series.

• Flash Hollet is the weakest defensive player in either top 4

• Pittsburgh has the speed on the wings to counter and D that can and will absolutely join the rush when applicable.

• Top pairs are razor tight but in crunch time I would go with the duo who has the Conn Smythe and postseason warrior in Keith, running with a very strong fit in Coulter who was noted to be extremely brainy, and rarely caught out of position. Elite physicality and defensive awareness. This is a strong, strong 2 way pair that is pretty much air tight in either direction IMHO.

• I think chemistry favors Pittsburgh

• Pittsburgh has fewer holes in their own end

• Pittsburgh has a better group of skaters top to bottom

• Pittsburgh has a group of wingers that is going to make life very very difficult for Dmen who want to venture down into the offensive zone.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I don't disagree with any of this.

But again, Abel peaked with 2 ELITE HOF'ers who played a very, very heavy game. They played a 200 foot game. Lafleur doesn't play that type of game. At all. I mean it's Lafleur so you're talking a top 30 player of all time but his style is not like the players Abel played his best hockey with.

You're acting like these superstar players can only play with exactly one set of linemates.

Who were Abel's linemates in 1942 when he finished 5th in NHL scoring and was 2nd Team All-Star LW?

What about 1943, when he had a Smythe-worthy performance?

Howe and Lindsay were still in juniors in the early 40s.

I think he'll be fine here.

This is why I put a huge focus on chemistry and trying to limit any questions in that regard. My top 3 lines have literal real life connections. Balderis fits Olmstead-Beliveau quite well. Harris fits Bowie-Russell about as perfectly as anyone will in this or any draft. Westfall upgrades an already lethal and proven shut down combination in Gainey-Jarvis. The real life combinations I have either got as good (Balderis) or better (Harris and Westfall) line mates than they were used to skating with in real life.

Yes, you obviously put a huge emphasis on chemistry. But it has a down side - Blair Russell is a worse scorer than all 12 forwards in NJ's starting lineup,* and he's on your second line...

*with the possible exception of Mike Ricci. I would need to examine that one more closely, but I suspect Ricci is better as a scorer...

_____

Also, as I said before, I think chemistry is a real strength of this particular NJ team.

I could have had a Shutt-Lemaire-Lafleur line I guess... but why, when I can draft players with very similar skillsets. Krutov/Shutt. Abel/Lemaire, who are just flat out better?

Mayorov and Starshinov were real life linemates, and their RW was a lesser player. Bobby Bauer? He was speedy skilled puck handling winger on the Dumart-Schmidt line, and while Starshinov is obviously not as good as Milt Schmidt, I see Mayorov/Starshinov playing a tough, grinding style much like Dumart and Schmidt.

And are their any two top 100 all-time players who look more similar from both a talent and skillset perspective than Earl Seibert and Tim Horton (Stanley's actual linemate)

 

[ImporterExporter]

Goalies: Moderate Advantage Pittsburgh

Hainwsorth is a poor man's version of Vezina. He had elite longevity and durability like Vezina.

Beyond that though, Hainsworth is simply behind Vezina is every area possible, to varying degrees. He's 10-15 spots below Vezina all time IMO.

Georges Vezina Resume:

Awards and Accomplishments: (this part from @Dreakmur)

• Inaugural Member of the Hockey Hall of Fame

• 2 x Stanley Cup Champion (1916, 1924)

• 5 x Stanley Cup Finalist (1916, 1917, 1919, 1924, 1925)

• 5 x NHA Champion (1916, 1917, 1919, 1924, 1925)

• 6 x Retro Vezina Winner (1911, 1912, 1914, 1918, 1924, 1925)

• Ultimate Hockey's "Best Goaltender" of the 1910s.

Statistical Accomplishments:
Goals Against Average - 1st(1911), 1st(1912), 1st(1914), 1st(1918), 1st(1924), 1st(1925), 2nd(1913), 2nd(1915), 2nd(1916), 2nd(1917), 2nd(1919), 2nd(1922), 2nd(1923)

Consolidated GAA - 1st(1911), 1st(1912), 1st(1914), 1st(1924), 1st(1925), 2nd(1918), 3rd(1916), 3rd(1917), 3rd(1922), 3rd(1923)

Play-off Results:
1914 - lost playoff series to Toronto and Hap Holmes
1916 - won cup challenge over Portland and Tom Murray
1917 - won play-off series over Ottawa and Clint Benedict
1917 - lost cup challenge to Vancouver and Hugh Lehman
1918 - lost play-off series to Toronto and Hap Holmes
1919 - cup challenge cancelled after 2-2-1 due to flu epidemic vs Seattle and Hap Holmes
1923 - lost play-off series to Ottawa and Clint Benedict
1924 - won play-off series over Ottawa and Clint Benedict
1924 - won cup challenge over Calgary and Charlie Reid
1925 - won play-off series over Toronto and John Ross Roach
1925 - lost cup challenge to Victoria and Hap Holmes


Earned nickname by being poised and collected in crucial games

The Hockey News: Top 50 Players of All Time by Franchise said:

24. Georges Vezina: 'The Chicoutimi Cucumber' earned his nickname by being poised and collected in net in crucial games.

Vezina has a calmness "not of this world"

NHL: 100 Greatest Players said:

He played 328 consecutive regular-season games and 39 straight postseason games for the Canadiens, a stoic presence who performed in an almost nonchalant manner. As one hockey writer of the day put it, "He has a calmness not of this world."

Author Andy O'Brien, who watched the Canadiens for over seven decades, recalled in his book "Fire-Wagon Hockey" seeing Vezina play against the Toronto St. Pats and their star winger, Walter "Babe" Dye, a frequent 30-goal man who would lead the NHL in that 1924-25 season with 38. "Babe Dye, owner of a shot, the violence of which wasn't duplicated until Bobby Hull came on the scene 33 years later, got a breakaway down the centre alley," O'Brien wrote. "Vezina remained upright as a statue. At about 30 feet out, Dye leaned on one; only Vezina's left arm moved as he picked off the puck with almost disdainful ease."

Skilled at deflecting pucks into the crowd to slow the opposition's momentum, he had an upright style of playing shooters that was a holdover from the game's original rules, which prohibited goalies from deliberately dropping to the ice to stop shots. Some goalies became adept at "accidentally" falling while making saves to avoid punishment, but not Vezina, the enthusiast for rules and fair play. He insisted on playing his position with integrity. The rule changed when the NHL began, but Vezina never changed his style, and his average dropped along with the rest.

Ultimate Hockey said:

Vezina's modesty was just one of the marks of his greatness. He was a superb sportsman, neither boastful in victory nor complaining in defeat. Although his spoken English was poor and conversational skills were modest, his presence commanded respect. He was the spiritual leader of the original Flying Frenchmen.

Vezina's coolness on the ice earned him the handle "The Chicoutimi Cucumber." He stood erect in the cage and was blessed with lightning-quick reflexes and a knack for stickhandling uncommon among the keepers of his day. When the pressure around Vezina's net intensified, he would often deflect the puck over the glass. And because he played on offensively oriented clubs, it was not uncommon to see him playing keep-away with an enemy checker until a teammate came to his aid.

Georges Vezina turned in some great performances behind teams not known for their defensive abilities.

The Stanley Cup Story said:

Much of the Canadiens' first Stanley Cup victory could be attributed to goalkeeper George Vezina. The 29-year-old goalie surrendered 13 goals for a 2.60 average, well below a typical number of the time.

• Frank Boucher noted Vezina as the coolest man he'd ever seen.

• Imperturbable which is something I value highly in goalies, especially in a playoff environments

• Vezina never missed a game or allowed substitute in 15 seasons.

• 367 games straight.

• From the Top 100 project last year:

• Vezina came in at 66 overall

• Was 10th goalie overall

• Hainsworth ended up 129th on the aggregate list

• Below Worters and Lundqvist and just above Luongo

As you'll see from the SC games below, Vezina was often brilliant, even in losses he is rarely cited as playing poorly.

He had some legendary performances in the playoffs and when you couple in the defensive acumen of the Pittsburgh squad, something Vezina wasn't used to seeing much of throughout his career, we believe Vezina is in a great spot to help carry Pittsburgh to the title here.


10 Mar 1923, 22 - The Gazette at Newspapers.com

• 
  
  
  • Gutted Montreal team beats dynasty (1923) Senators 2-1 in game 2 of their 2 game NHL playoff round. This is an Ottawa team with Nighbor, Denneny, Clancy, Gerard, Darragh, Broadbent, Boucher,

• 
  
  
  • Ottawa had won game 1, 2-0 so they advanced on goal differential (3-2). Whoever decided that was a good way to advance a winner should have been jailed

• 
  
  
  • Vezina gives greatest display seen in net all year.

• 
  
  
  • Stopped 64 of 65 shots in a 2-1 win. Non stop barrage of shots from everywhere. Now obviously we have no way of knowing how many shots were counted that were going wide and Vezina pushed them to a corner. Or something a scramble around the net was recorded as a shot. Even if you cut the # in half it's still amazing. That's the Montreal paper above btw.

• 
  
  
  • Against an utterly dominant Senators team, given this was at twilight of Vezina's career, it's a mighty impressive feat. Plus it's just cool to see there was clearly stats being recorded beyond just goals/assists/penalties in the early 20's.

From the Ottawa Citizen: (same date/game from the Montreal Gazette above)

10 Mar 1923, 11 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com

81 of 82 turned aside according to Ottawa.

Notice the "Vezina stopped 3 times as many shots as Benedict (another reason why Benedict really is a full notch below Vezina but that's another argument all together) and then the total number for Benedict being tailed at 31 shots. So 3 x that amount, roughly would be 90.

Again, we should assume that some of these shots are likely pucks that weren't going on net. Conversely even if you went overboard and cut the overall number in half it's still a massive performance given the situation/era.

9 Mar 1914, 14 - The Gazette at Newspapers.com

Vezina game 1 of the 1914 NHA playoff

Posts shutout of Toronto.

Also shown to pass the puck!

Gets an assist on the 2nd goal

12 Mar 1914, 12 - The Gazette at Newspapers.com

Even in a game 2 blowout, Vezina noted as only reason scored wasn't worse.

Time and time again he turned aside shots from in close due to the Habs D getting shredded

21 Mar 1916, 12 - The Gazette at Newspapers.com

Game 1 of SCF's Montreal loses 2-0

Hard to read but you can see that the nets were the only area Montreal had an advantage in and Vezina held the score down "through his brilliant work"

Murray noted as having little to do

Montreal forwards couldn't do a thing

23 Mar 1916, 10 - The Gazette at Newspapers.com

Vezina gets lions share of credit for 2-1 SC victory over Portland in 1916

Vezina beat Portland lone handed.

Turns aside shots that looked to be sure counters

This was same series that Smoke Harris blew up at in a losing cause

• 
  

Same game (different paper)

23 Mar 1916, Page 14 - The Oregon Daily Journal at Newspapers.com

Vezina is also cited playing behind weak defenses at different times over the course of his career.

• 
  

27 Mar 1916, 17 - The Gazette at Newspapers.com

Game 3 Vezina was a star

His work more brilliant than any match played this season

29 Mar 1916, 14 - The Gazette at Newspapers.com

Game 4 Portland wins 6-5 and nothing is noted regarding Vezina good/bad.

Only mention is Smoke Harris beat him with a good side shot.


31 Mar 1916, 14 - The Gazette at Newspapers.com

Deciding game 5 win Vezina gives up 1 goal in an era that saw roughly 4 goals per game scored.

His stop and clear of a shot by Harris led to the game winner

19 Mar 1917, 16 - The Gazette at Newspapers.com

Vezina dominated game 1 of the 1917 Finals w/Montreal winning 8-4

One of the best games of net guarding American fans have ever seen.

Time after time stopped hard, close in shots with ease

21 Mar 1917, 14 - The Gazette at Newspapers.com

Vezina has his first off night in game 2 loss 6-1

Canadiens D noted to be shredded though.

24 Mar 1917, 20 - The Gazette at Newspapers.com

Veinza gives wonderful exhibition in goal tending in 4-1 loss in game 3 of the SCF.

Time and time again Seattle banged hot ones at Vezina but he was equal to the task

Once again, skaters of Montreal weakened and were cited as being the main reason for the loss

27 Mar 1917, Page 9 - The Seattle Star at Newspapers.com

Montreal gets blown out 9-1 in game 4 as Seattle wins Cup

Seattle noted to have the puck basically the entire game

Nothing regarding Vezina

27 Mar 1917, 2 - The Gazette at Newspapers.com

Game not in Montreal Gazette. Only 10 pages so I think it's MIA


20 Mar 1919, 14 - The Gazette at Newspapers.com

Game 1 of 1919 SCF

Montreal blown out 7-0 by Seattle

Nothing noted in particular about Vezina


24 Mar 1919, 16 - The Gazette at Newspapers.com

Montreal gets a 4-2 win in game 2

Nothing particular noted about Vezina other than he stopped a flock of hard shots

25 Mar 1919, 14 - The Gazette at Newspapers.com

Montreal gets blown out 7-2 in game 3.

Again, nothing really noted about Vezina


25 Mar 1919, 14 - The Gazette at Newspapers.com

Montreal and Seattle play to 0-0 draw in game 4.

2 OT periods played with no winner before game called

Vezina and Holmes noted to have both played well

31 Mar 1919, 16 - The Gazette at Newspapers.com

Montreal wins game 5 by the score of 4-3 in OT

Nothing noted on Vezina

Lalonde had a huge game

Finals would be called after this due to Spanish Flu outbreak sickening/killing players.


26 Mar 1924, 22 - Edmonton Journal at Newspapers.com

• 
  
  
  • Vezina is literally quoted as being the reason the Habs won the title in 1924. Both sides of the rooting sections recognized this.

• 
  
  
  • He was 37 years old at the time and would pass away roughly 2 years later due to severe health issues.

• 
  
  
  • Vezina cited as turning aside, "no less than 23 shots in the second period alone", working in "dazzling fashion"

• 
  
  
  • Again, Montreal's D ripped apart leaving Vezina to fend off heavy barrages, which he does.

Same paper, next page:

Montreal loses game 1 of the SCF to Victoria 5-2

Vezina noted as cool, dependable.

Not his fault that early scores were registered

Montreal loses 3-1 in game 2

Nothing noted regarding Vezina other than Victoria registered 35 direct shots on net

Morenz was easily best player on Montreal in this game

28 Mar 1925, 18 - The Gazette at Newspapers.com

Montreal wins 2-1 in game 3.

Vezina stopped 35 out of 36

Final Thoughts:

• As I outlined in the beginning I think Vezina is ahead by a moderate amount here

• His regular season brilliance stretches across a time period greater than a decade against stiff competition

• He often played on teams with porous defenses and more than not faced heavy barrages of shots
• Vezina had the ability to actually move the puck which was uncommon in his day. Even found a retro assist from a playoff game above.

• He routinely played way above the bar in the playoffs/SCF's to include some legendary performances

• His postseason numbers are generally sterling, with GAA coming in well below the league averages in most cases

• Even in losses he's usually noted to have been great or not noted in one direction or the other

• I'd certainly give him the Smythe for his performance in 1924 against Calgary as the evidence is pretty overwhelming and would pick him for the 1916 Smythe when Montreal beat Portland based on the game reports from that series

• Vezina's legendary calmness will be a key factor in the Finals here.

 

[ImporterExporter]

You're acting like these superstar players can only play with exactly one set of linemates.

Who were Abel's linemates in 1942 when he finished 5th in NHL scoring and was 2nd Team All-Star LW?

What about 1943, when he had a Smythe-worthy performance?

Howe and Lindsay were still in juniors in the early 40s.

I think he'll be fine here.



Yes, you obviously put a huge emphasis on chemistry. But it has a down side - Blair Russell is a worse scorer than all 12 forwards in NJ's starting lineup,* and he's on your second line...

*with the possible exception of Mike Ricci. I would need to examine that one more closely, but I suspect Ricci is better as a scorer...

_____

Also, as I said before, I think chemistry is a real strength of this particular NJ team.

I could have had a Shutt-Lemaire-Lafleur line I guess... but why, when I can draft players with very similar skillsets. Krutov/Shutt. Abel/Lemaire, who are just flat out better?

Mayorov and Starshinov were real life linemates, and their RW was a lesser player. Bobby Bauer? He was speedy skilled puck handling winger on the Dumart-Schmidt line, and while Starshinov is obviously not as good as Milt Schmidt, I see Mayorov/Starshinov playing a tough, grinding style much like Dumart and Schmidt.

And are their any two top 100 all-time players who look more similar from both a talent and skillset perspective than Earl Seibert and Tim Horton (Stanley's actual linemate)

Not at all. I'm not insinuating that or suggesting people view line ups in such a manner.

Just pointing out that if both teams have chemistry, I'd probably give the edge to the team that has 3 real life duo's in the F group and a 2nd pairing that played for Green and won a lot of games together including a SC challenge in 1910 and then the title outright in 1911.

If you look at hockey as having 7 "units" (4 F/3D) then Pittsburgh can point to 4 of those 7 units and say "there are 4 separate real life connections that all dominated for long stretches of time together"

Don Grosso outscored Abel on the Wings in 1942. Abel did have a fanatastic 1943 final but even then was outscored by Carl Linscomb in the playoffs.

Like I said, I think your top line and team for the most part is built very well. I wouldn't expect anything less from one of your squads.

But Abel peaked with Lindsay/Howe. That doesn't mean he's downgraded here much. But Krutov and Lalfeur are well below those 2 collectively as far as offense goes and Lafleur simply doesn't play a game like Lindsay/Howe.

I put a premium on being defensively strong on the wings to counter teams like NJ. Pittsburgh doesn't need to blow the doors down with 4 and 5 goals a game to win IMO. We have a near air tight roster as far as defensive stature goes. Less holes defensively on the blue line IMO and a clear advantage in net. Pittsburgh is built specifically to stifle winger dominant rosters.

Russell sacrifices offense for having top flight defensive ability. Yes Bauer is obviously much better offensively but flipping to defensive ability and the opposite is true. Both are HOF'ers. I took the proven chemistry and defensive status when picking Russell. If I had a 75 level offensive player at C I wouldn't have taken Russell. I probably would have ended up with a one dimensional but better scorer like Kessel or something.

I think Bowie is a better offensive presence than your top line C (Abel). Harris will get a lot of chances to hit his peak offensive capabilities given Russell brings strong defensive awareness and back checking meaning Harris doesn't have to shoulder the defensive burden he did in real life. He's a lot like Northcott and his playmaking and checking abilities match up well with Bowie. His speed is a major plus.

Harris' VsX (or whatever you want to call it) suffers for 2 reasons. One, he played a very strong defensive/physically minded game. Two, Taylor is like Gretzky of the 80's. His peak totals artificially drive down the rest of the league's offensive "scores". Harris outscored Taylor once btw and in Portland proved he could score at a premium rate without Cyclone. I'm not saying Harris is now worth an 80 but next to a dominant 2nd line, goal scoring C, with a RW who will be explicitly trusted to cover up high and protect against odd man rushes and I think Harris is in position to have a good series. I certainly think the top side of his offensive value is in play here.

Earl Seibert isn't the defensive presence that Horton was. I already outlined in 1936 how Seibert wasn't even thought as good in his own end as Art Coulter. Too many holes left by Seibert making rushes.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Good discussion thus far. A couple questions/comments for @ImporterExporter ...


1. It appears that when you're comparing regular season production to playoff production you are including non-playoff regular season years, which is not a fair comparison.

Using Duncan Keith as an example (a player I'm very familiar with), the seasons the Hawks did not make the playoffs during his career (05-06 to 07-08 and 17-18 to 19-20) his regular season production was much lower than the seasons the Hawks did make the playoffs, which isn't surprising because those playoff seasons coincide nearly perfectly with his prime years.

I would like to see Keith's regular season production during playoff years only compared to his playoff production, this would give a much more accurate picture of how much his play changes in the playoffs.


2. I like that you are showing how Art Coulter's teams did when he joined them, but you should also be providing the context of how those teams were doing before he joined them. There's a big difference if the team goes from 3rd without him to 2nd with him compared to 6th without him to 2nd with him (these are not actual stats, just illustrating my point).