ATD 2011 Draft Thread VII

[seventieslord]

I'd like to know why. Even if he gets skipped in that downtime, the next people can't post their picks either. If he doesn't come back by the time the site is back, he wasn't going to be posting his pick anyways. If he's back, he lets people know and posts his pick afterwards. Simple.

What you're saying is fine, except for the fact that it means a person who is encountering a network outage should have to sit there refreshing over and over again until the site is back up. Who wants to do that?

 

[seventieslord]

All good value for legitimate 2nd liners. They were backup plans in case I decided to wait to complete a second line.

I agree Irvin is a passable 2nd liner.

Bain, I still can't get over that he played just 24 games of hockey that anyone knows about.

Kamensky - what's the highest he ever placed in scoring in the NHL? I mean, I know that some of his value comes from his Soviet league time and international play, but he was in the NHL for a decade and had one season with 70+ points. He was twice 25th in the league in points and once 39th. That's not even Verbeek territory, and he didn't bring the grit and agitation that Verbeek brought.

vecens, Smyth must've been who you were talking about who you preferred over Morrow.

Smyth's offense 9 out of ten days > Morrow's offense
Morrow's defense and grit 10 out of 10 days > Smyth's defense and grit

Leadership is about equal.

I'd give Morrow a good leadership edge. Other than that, I agree.

Smith was top-20 in goals 5 times, I bet not many people know that.

 

[jarek]

What you're saying is fine, except for the fact that it means a person who is encountering a network outage should have to sit there refreshing over and over again until the site is back up. Who wants to do that?

The site will generally tell you how long the downtime will last, no?

 

[nik jr]

Meh, for me, coaches don't matter all that much when it comes time to comparing teams - more of a tiebreaker if two teams are really close. It explains why I never take one too early.

imo, coaches are about as important as elite players. coaches make a team instead of just 20 players and give them a style of play. NJD this season is an extreme example.

a team with hitchcock as coach is very different than the same roster with sather.

 

[seventieslord]

The site will generally tell you how long the downtime will last, no?

In my experience, it says "a few minutes" or something like that, but you never really know how long it will be.

What's the BFD? Ease up. Are we in some kind of a hurry?

 

[jarek]

Reading more and more on Firsov (a lot of Vikulov hit end up talking about Firsov, since they played a lot together), I would strongly suggest to put Anatoli Firsov, LW/C on the draft page instead of only Anatoli Firsov, LW. Firsov played a lot of centre in the late 1960's, alongside Vikulov and an undrafted, far enough that he could be as valuable at that position. You could also go as far as putting Anatoli Firsov, F, as he even won a first All-Star spot at the right wing position in 1964. Since it seems people rely a lot on the first page to put players in certain position, I believe we should correct those mistakes for future drafts. (I see Sloan was corrected, nice to see)

If Marcotte can get the F after his name, although we have no clue just how many games or how good he was as a centre or a right winger, Anatoli Firsov most definitely should be ranked as a F

Firsov was moved to center by Tarasov because Tarasov felt he was too banged up and useless to continue playing wing.

 

[EagleBelfour]

Firsov was moved to center by Tarasov because Tarasov felt he was too banged up and useless to continue playing wing.

My god Jarek, you really change since last draft. You're so aggressive in your response since the start of this draft, you're not as fun

I will reformulate how you present your response, because in reality you're not totally wrong, you just present it in a blatant way.

Indeed, Anatoli Tarasov partly decided to change Firsov to the centre position around the end of his career to extent the longevity of his star player. The other part of this equation is that Vikulov and Firsov (who played together) lost their centre, an undrafted player. At this point, Tarasov decided to remove Valeri Kharlamov from the Petrov-Mikhailov line, and put him beside Vikulov and Firsov, who now was the centre.

As Firsov himself told, the trio immediately, clicked, and they form the strongest offensive unit during the 1971-72 season, while being the best trio of the 1972 Olympics.

I also read various report where Firsov played centre in the 1960's. My feel is that Firsov would of been just as effective as a centre than a left winger if he had played that position during the 1960's, and he has played enough at that position to get dual recognition. If a player like Don Marcotte can get recognition as good enough to play all three forward position, while we have at this point few clues as to how many games or how effectively he played centre or right wing (and coming from a unique source as far as I know), then Firsov should be listed as a primary LW, secondary C. However, I would be surprise if anyone would use Firsov other than on the left side, due to the position scarcity.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Reading more and more on Firsov (a lot of Vikulov hit end up talking about Firsov, since they played a lot together), I would strongly suggest to put Anatoli Firsov, LW/C on the draft page instead of only Anatoli Firsov, LW. Firsov played a lot of centre in the late 1960's, alongside Vikulov and an undrafted, far enough that he could be as valuable at that position. You could also go as far as putting Anatoli Firsov, F, as he even won a first All-Star spot at the right wing position in 1964. Since it seems people rely a lot on the first page to put players in certain position, I believe we should correct those mistakes for future drafts. (I see Sloan was corrected, nice to see)

If Marcotte can get the F after his name, although we have no clue just how many games or how good he was as a centre or a right winger, Anatoli Firsov most definitely should be ranked as a F

On that note, have we ever decided the right way to list Cyclone Taylor?

 

[VMBM]

- Speed: He was not as fast as Firsov or Kharlamov, but Vikulov had good speed. You can see this in the video I linked at the bottom of my biography.

Hmmm, I would say he was one of the slowest Russian star players of his time; speed was not one of his strong points IMO. I would also doubt that he was better defensively than Petrov, but...

Edit: I think Kharlamov was talking about the situation in 1971-72 and before.

Later in his life, Vladimir Vikulov became a serious alcoholic and died of a mysterious death

???

Apparently, his death is so mysterious that no one seems to know about it; I wonder if he knows it himself! i.e. when has he died exactly?

 

[jkrx]

Hmmm, I would say he was one of the slowest Russian star players of his time; speed was not one of his strong points IMO. I would also doubt that he was better defensively than Petrov, but...



???

Apparently, his death is so mysterious that no one seems to know about it; I wonder if he knows it himself! i.e. when has he died exactly?

I think he is talking about Khatulev.

Edit: Yes, an undrafted player but I doubt anyone will ever consider to draft him.

 

[EagleBelfour]

Hmmm, I would say he was one of the slowest Russian star players of his time; speed was not one of his strong points IMO. I would also doubt that he was better defensively than Petrov, but...

???

Apparently, his death is so mysterious that no one seems to know about it; I wonder if he knows it himself! i.e. when has he died exactly?

- I'll be honest by saying that I based my opinion on the clip I saw, which show him having good wheel. I didn't came across anything that talked about his speed, good or bad, but if you say he was a slow skater, I'll take your word for it.

- I'm not saying he was better than Petrov defensively, I'm saying that Kharlamov viewed Vikulov and Firsov as players who viewed the defensive side of the game as an more important aspect of the game than Mikhailov and Petrov. The exact quote is:

'' In virtually every match Vikulov and Firsov didn't merely demonstrate their creativity, improvise, and confound the opponent with one riddle after another - they were also doing a great deal of work, and very eagerly so, pulling back whenever they would lose the puck. So if I had played more offensively with my former partners, caring little about defence, now that I was on ice alongside such eminent players, it would be embarrassing to carry on playing instead of going back and helping them. To play any different from how they played or to work any less on the rink would be tantamount to disrespecting them.''

Again, it dosn't say textually that Firsov and Vikulov were better defensive player (although maybe they were). Perhaps Petrov was an effortless good defensive player, but what this quote shows is that Vikulov and Firsov took care of the defensive aspect game, which tells us a lot more than the absolute unknown we had on them before. That's why I stated that Vikulov probably was a decent defensive player.

- Yea ... about that! I looked over all my links to see where I've made that mistake, and I confuse Vikulov with another undrafted Russian. I don't look good on this, but I'm rectifying it as I write this down! Perhaps I should send my european player biography to you to correct them before sending them to the public!

---

Beside those points, what's your view on Vikulov? I'm basing my opinion solely on quotes and statistics, but you had the chance to see him play. How far worst was he compare to the All-Time best and who would you compare him too?

 

[Triffy]

Regarding Vikulov...

I once studied if the international performance had any effect on Soviet MVP voting. It did (see the thread). I think it's possible that the same effect can be seen in Soviet all-star team selections.

EagleBelfour asked if it's possible that Vikulov was nearly as good as Mikhailov from 1967 until 1972. Even if I've spent quite a few hours analyzing the Soviet stats from that time period, I thought that sounded absurd and took a quick look at the players' statistics. It turned out it's actually not absurd at all. That's partly because Mikhailov wasn't in his prime until 1969, but it's not the only reason as Vikulov outscored him several times (1972, 1973, 1974) after that, as well.

Vikulov had a better domestic season in 1966-1967. They were even in 1968. Then in 1969, 1970 and 1971 Mikhailov had clearly better domestic statistics. Then in 1972 Vikulov had a very good offensive season, leading the league with 34 goals in 31 games.

Vikulov was two years younger than Mikhailov but was actually a part of the Soviet national team already in 1966 whereas it took Mikhailov until 1969 to make it to the world championships.

From 1969 to 1972 Vikulov's international resume is actually better than Mikhailov's (Vikulov vs. Mikhailov). Reasons for his absence from the national team after the splendid performance in 1972 should be studied.

 

[EagleBelfour]

Regarding Vikulov...

I once studied if the international performance had any effect on Soviet MVP voting. It did (see the thread). I think it's possible that the same effect can be seen in Soviet all-star team selections.

EagleBelfour asked if it's possible that Vikulov was nearly as good as Mikhailov from 1967 until 1972. Even if I've spent quite a few hours analyzing the Soviet stats from that time period, I thought that sounded absurd and took a quick look at the players' statistics. It turned out it's actually not absurd at all. That's partly because Mikhailov wasn't in his prime until 1969, but it's not the only reason as Vikulov outscored him several times (1972, 1973, 1974) after that, as well.

Vikulov had a better domestic season in 1966-1967. They were even in 1968. Then in 1969, 1970 and 1971 Mikhailov had clearly better domestic statistics. Then in 1972 Vikulov had a very good offensive season, leading the league with 34 goals in 31 games.

Vikulov was two years younger than Mikhailov but was actually a part of the Soviet national team already in 1966 whereas it took Mikhailov until 1969 to make it to the world championships.

From 1969 to 1972 Vikulov's international resume is actually better than Mikhailov's (Vikulov vs. Mikhailov). Reasons for his absence from the national team after the splendid performance in 1972 should be studied.

Thanks for the response, I really appreciate it.

Also, wonderful thread about the direct results between MVP voting and international performances. Looking more closely at the MVP wins of Anatoli Firsov (I own him also in this draft, I've made quite a big biography on him) I came to the same conclusion as yours.

Why I am still confuse about the Vikulov vs. Mikhailov comparision, is that Vikulov receive the First All-Star team in 1970 and 1971, while Mikhailov clearly beat him in the goalscoring department (+13 goals in 1970, + 15 goals in 1971). However, Vikulin assist record were not recorded from 1965 to 1972, and he was recognize as one of the greatest playmaker of his generation. Perhaps he was generating so much offense from his playmaking that the voters took notice?

You also point out that the international competition may have affect the AS voting. Let's look at Vikulov and Mikhailov results from 1970 to 1972:

1970: While Mikhailov score 13 more goals during the regular season, Vikulov scored two more goals and four points over Mikhailov at the WC. He finished 5th in scoring.

1971: Mikhailov outscored Vikulov by 15 goals, but Vikulov scored one more point in one more game at the WC

1972: Vikulov outscore Mikhailov and has a terrific Olympic and WC.

In 1970, does scoring 4 more points at the WC enough to swing the vote in favour of Vikulov, who was outscore by 14 goals by Mikhailov?

In 1971, Mikhailov outscored Vikulin by 15 goals and both have pretty much equal results at the WC. Statistically wise, it's kind of puzzling.

1972 is really no contest. Vikulin was better in the Soviet league, Olympics and WC.

I would tend to believe that just like the MVP voting, the AS are also influence by the international competition. Considering that Mikhailov was clearly the better goalscorer in two of those three season, is it possible that the voters taught that Vikulov was a more rounded player? Also, they both played on the same team and Mikhailov probably received more ice time with better linemates. The voters might also caught that and vote accordingly. At last, Vikulov was recognize as one of the greatest playmaker of his generation, so as I said before, he might have created so much offense from his playmaking ability that voters took notice. Although we don't have the assist results of Vikulov from 1965 to 1972, I would imagine that the voters had the results in their hand during those season. Considering that Vikulov was the better playmaker of the two, he might have closed enough the difference between goals (or maybe surpass it). This could explain 1970 and 1971 FAST as well. Considering that Vikulov was four-time Top-5 in assists past his prime shows that this is a very distinctive possibility that Vikulov was the top-assist getter during his prime and I think what would make the most sense.

Anyway, the fact still remain that Vikulin was able to steal three FAST in a row over a prime Boris Mikhailov, which is no small feat. Considering that there's 400 spots of difference between both selection (and that I'm absolutely certain that Mikhailov is not overrated), I have to think that Vikulov might be underrated around here (and it's not like Vikulin is a three-year wonder, far from it)

 

[VMBM]

- I'll be honest by saying that I based my opinion on the clip I saw, which show him having good wheel. I didn't came across anything that talked about his speed, good or bad, but if you say he was a slow skater, I'll take your word for it.

- I'm not saying he was better than Petrov defensively, I'm saying that Kharlamov viewed Vikulov and Firsov as players who viewed the defensive side of the game as an more important aspect of the game than Mikhailov and Petrov. The exact quote is:

'' In virtually every match Vikulov and Firsov didn't merely demonstrate their creativity, improvise, and confound the opponent with one riddle after another - they were also doing a great deal of work, and very eagerly so, pulling back whenever they would lose the puck. So if I had played more offensively with my former partners, caring little about defence, now that I was on ice alongside such eminent players, it would be embarrassing to carry on playing instead of going back and helping them. To play any different from how they played or to work any less on the rink would be tantamount to disrespecting them.''

Again, it dosn't say textually that Firsov and Vikulov were better defensive player (although maybe they were). Perhaps Petrov was an effortless good defensive player, but what this quote shows is that Vikulov and Firsov took care of the defensive aspect game, which tells us a lot more than the absolute unknown we had on them before. That's why I stated that Vikulov probably was a decent defensive player.

- Yea ... about that! I looked over all my links to see where I've made that mistake, and I confuse Vikulov with another undrafted Russian. I don't look good on this, but I'm rectifying it as I write this down! Perhaps I should send my european player biography to you to correct them before sending them to the public!

---

Beside those points, what's your view on Vikulov? I'm basing my opinion solely on quotes and statistics, but you had the chance to see him play. How far worst was he compare to the All-Time best and who would you compare him too?

I don't have much time now, but just to say something:

I think Kharlamov is talking about the situation in 1971-72 and comparing it to what is was like before that; Petrov has said himself that he was an offensive-minded player prior to the 1972 Summit series, right? But the only thing I can say without any hesitation is that Petrov was used as a penalty killer far more often in those games I've seen them play (1972-76). And Petrov had a clear edge in physicality/strength (not maybe necessary for a good defensive player, but anyway).

My view on Vikulov? Outside that he wasn't fast at all IMO and that he isn't dead (hey, even I had to google/check it to be sure!), I think your bio/posts are pretty accurate. His technical skills and passing/playmaking skills have made the biggest impression on me. He was probably not at his best vs. Canada (i.e. 'physical' play). For example, he played 6(/8) games in 1972 and only 4(/8) games in the 1974 WHA Series.

His prime (1967/8-1972) is very impressive, and that alone should put him pretty high. Slightly below Milan Novy? (heck, I don't think we have made our mind up about him either). I'll try to come up with something better later.

 

[Triffy]

Vikulov was named a tournament all-star in 1971 as well as 1972. It's possible that the 1971 Soviet league all-star team spot (and MVP result) can be explained because of this. Maybe he scored some important goals in world championships? I don't know, but that could actually be checked from the chidlovski page...

I've noticed that the Soviet league assists are quite well tracked since the 1973-74 season. But before that, I don't know how to value them because there's so much data missing.

 

[DoMakc]

Hmmm, I would say he was one of the slowest Russian star players of his time; speed was not one of his strong points IMO. I would also doubt that he was better defensively than Petrov, but...

I'm not sure you're right about his speed, i found a source where he was called "speedy", another one (http://www.peoples.ru/sport/hockey/vikulov/) says he was called "slalom racer".

Apparently, his death is so mysterious that no one seems to know about it; I wonder if he knows it himself! i.e. when has he died exactly?

i'm not sure he's dead, at least i found nothing that says that.

 

[jkrx]

I'm not sure you're right about his speed, i found where he was called "speedy", another one (http://www.peoples.ru/sport/hockey/vikulov/) says he was called "slalom racer".





i'm not sure he's dead, at least i found nothing that says that.

He isn't like I stated longer up in the thread. Hes thinking of another soviet player.

 

[EagleBelfour]

I don't have much time now, but just to say something:

I think Kharlamov is talking about the situation in 1971-72 and comparing it to what is was like before that; Petrov has said himself that he was an offensive-minded player prior to the 1972 Summit series, right? But the only thing I can say without any hesitation is that Petrov was used as a penalty killer far more often in those games I've seen them play (1972-76). And Petrov had a clear edge in physicality/strength (not maybe necessary for a good defensive player, but anyway).

My view on Vikulov? Outside that he wasn't fast at all IMO and that he isn't dead (hey, even I had to google/check it to be sure!), I think your bio/posts are pretty accurate. His technical skills and passing/playmaking skills have made the biggest impression on me. He was probably not at his best vs. Canada (i.e. 'physical' play). For example, he played 6(/8) games in 1972 and only 4(/8) games in the 1974 WHA Series.

His prime (1967/8-1972) is very impressive, and that alone should put him pretty high. Slightly below Milan Novy? (heck, I don't think we have made our mind up about him either). I'll try to come up with something better later.

I don't know why I don't PM you and VMBM when I have question about european players, you guys are gold mine of information for person like me who never had the chance to see those players!

- Definitely, Kharlamov was talking about his first stint with Petrov-Mikhailov, so before the 1971-72 season. I should of been more clear on that. Petrov is the better defensive player, and I don't want to argue (mainly because I believe it is true). The quote provided was not to bring down Mikhailov and Petrov defensive play, but more to promote Firsov and Vikulin's one. Most, if not all, GM's participating in these drafts never had a chance to saw those guy play regularly. I'm finding that looking for quotes on the European player defensive play is the most difficult, and I thought (and still think) that those quotes from Kharlamov paint a good picture of Firsov and Vikulin defensive play. They were not black hole in the defensive zone like Bodrov, and they very most probably wouldn't steal Selke's from Bob Gainey. It closes the gap as to where they stand defensively. When describing Vikulov defensive play, I used the word decent, which I think his conservative enough while probably true. I'm not trying to sell Vikulov better than he is, because I own him in this draft, but trying to paint the best picture I can of him. Feel free to add your tidbits on Vikulin or Firsov defensive play if you have any memory of them.

- You're the second one that says that Vikulov was not a fast skater, so I definitely takes those words for the truth. I made a quick judgment using a 30 second footage, which I shouldn't of done. Mea Culpa. (Was he faster than Starshinov, which was renown as a slow skater and definitely the slowest player on the ice on the eight minute footage I've found in a game between Russia and Sweden?)

- I don't know enough about Milan Novy to judge where Vikulov stand in regard of that comparison. In here, the view on Novy his very different from a knowledgeable GM to another, but most think he's underrated compare to his placement (#416). Vikulov three years peak is also previewed by three season of excellent hockey, which got him 3 SAST in a row, and he was a decent, though not spectacular by any means, from 1972 to 1978. He place 9th, 10th, 11th, 11th and 15th in MVP voting in five season after 1972. Vikulov is definitely no three years wonder (Although Novy didn't had a short career either, I'm not sure where I was going with those last few sentences!)

And to be sure: Vikulov isn't dead! Foolish mistake by myself.

'' To that period it in essence was formed as player and manifested its best qualities, demonstrating excellent pass at any speed, sudden, precise thrust, the very high skill of encircling, after that even in the youthful command Volodya obtained nickname “slalom skierâ€.''

He repeatedly became the [lushim] attacking and best sniper of the championships of the USSR and largest international tournaments.

http://fr.babelfish.yahoo.com/trans...rt/hockey/vikulov/&lp=ru_en&btnTrUrl=Traduire

... We really need a resident Russian GM in this draft! The article provided seems extremely interesting, but can I really use that in my biography?

(Thanks DoMack)

 

[DoMakc]

... We really need a resident Russian GM in this draft! The article provided seems extremely interesting, but can I really use that in my biography?

(Thanks DoMack)

actually I am russian.

 

[EagleBelfour]

actually I am russian.

Really? Holy mackerel! Good news!

Could you please translate in proper term the passage I copied down on Vikulov? It would be appreciate!

 

[VMBM]

I'm not sure you're right about his speed, i found where he was called "speedy", another one (http://www.peoples.ru/sport/hockey/vikulov/) says he was called "slalom racer".

If we're talking about straight-ahead speed, I'm sticking with my claim (i.e. one of the slowest STAR players).

Had probably a better skating technique than guys like Starshinov and Petrov, though.

I can certainly remember a quote, where his lack of speed was mentioned. I'll see if I can find it.

But none of you should take my word for anything if it contradicts to what you've seen or have read, of course.

BTW, could it be that Vikulov's success in 1967-72 can be somewhat contributed to the fact that he was playing with great players then, like Firsov... Kharlamov, Maltsev? So he was more of a great 'complimentary player' rather than huge star in his own right? I don't know.

 

[DoMakc]

I'm really not good at translating, but:

"...[Vikulov] demonstrated the ability to be an excellent passer at any speed, had a very precise shot with quick release and a great dangling ability (it's hard to translate "obvodka" - it means not only stickhandling ability, but ability to skate by his opponent, also a combination of stickhandling and skating ability), because of which was known as "slalom racer" since his juniors days".

 

[EagleBelfour]

If we're talking about straight-ahead speed, I'm sticking with my claim (i.e. one of the slowest STAR players).

Had probably a better skating technique than guys like Starshinov and Petrov, though.

I can certainly remember a quote, where his lack of speed was mentioned. I'll see if I can find it.

But none of you should take my word for anything if it contradicts to what you've seen or have read, of course.

BTW, could it be that Vikulov's success in 1967-72 can be somewhat contributed to the fact that he was playing with great players then, like Firsov... Kharlamov, Maltsev? So he was more of a great 'complimentary player' rather than huge star in his own right? I don't know.

- About his speed, this would make sense. I'm still coming back to my little 30 second footage, but I was very impress by his skating ability. It was a one-on-one battle against a Sweden defender, and he dumbfounded him. I didn't saw real straight-ahead speed from him. If you find this quote on Vikulov, even long after the discussion on him is done, send it my way.

- I never taught of Vikulov should be talked in the same breath as Mikhailov, Maltsev, Kharlamov, Maltsev etc ... In that regard, I don't view him as a huge star. However, in the late 1960's - 1970's, it's was tough not to play with a huge star when you were playing for the CSKA Moscow. The national team was pretty much them + 2-3 skaters. Mikhailov was also playing with huge star, Maltsev, Firsov, Kharlamov etc ... So in a sense we cannot discredit Vikulov for playing with big stars when those team were pretty much the best player in the country, and that include Vikulov.

I'm really not good at translating, but:

"...[Vikulov] demonstrated the ability to be an excellent passer at any speed, had a very precise shot with quick release and a great dangling ability (it's hard to translate "obvodka" - it means not only stickhandling ability, but ability to skate by his opponent, also a combination of stickhandling and skating ability), because of which was known as "slalom racer" since his juniors days".

I'm stealing that translation and I'm putting him in my Vikulov biography, thank you

 

[DoMakc]

BTW, could it be that Vikulov's success in 1967-72 can be somewhat contributed to the fact that he was playing with great players then, like Firsov... Kharlamov, Maltsev? So he was more of a great 'complimentary player' rather than huge star in his own right? I don't know.

You might be right. i think he was used as "designated scorer" on his line by Tarasov, who called Firsov a halfback or a midfielder (soccer terminology).

I'm stealing that translation and I'm putting him in my Vikulov biography, thank you

There are another 2 senteces worth of quoting:

"During his time with CSKA he was known as most cunning (tricky, shrewd)" soviet forward. His moves were always a surprise for his opponents".

 

[EagleBelfour]

You might be right. i think he was used as "designated scorer" on his line by Tarasov, who called Firsov a halfback or a midfielder (soccer terminology).

Actually, from what I've read, Vikulov and Firsov were the goalscorer, while xxx and Ivanov were the halfback. Ragulin was the pure defensive defenceman.

There are another 2 senteces worth of quoting:

"During his time with CSKA he was known as most cunning (tricky, shrewd)" soviet forward. His moves were always a surprise for his opponents".

Oink! Stolen!