Loved him as a player, but I think this is early for him. Had basically three years of elite play and other then that, he was just a good player.Has a great shot and excellent hockey sense. Vaulted into stardom once he became a grittier performer. Is a quiet leader and quality teammate.
he along with ********* and ********* became one of the best lines in hockey
MARKUS NASLUND
Loved him as a player, but I think this is early for him. Had basically three years of elite play and other then that, he was just a good player.
Loved him as a player, but I think this is early for him. Had basically three years of elite play and other then that, he was just a good player.
Does anyone here know the earliest confirmed recordings of Norris Trophy winners?
Did they have Cleghorn listed as a winner in a year that the newspaper/internet has recorded differently?
markrander is gonna have a field day with this.
Glad you're not in my division.
We're going to have like 10 draft threads..
135 goals in 45 games you have got to be kidding me...
If seventies jumped off a bridge, would you?
I would.
Of course, you are completely negating the value of Boucher's first four years, but do as you see fit.
Damn you for taking Bernie Federko He is one of the guys I have ahead of Mike Modano.
No offense, but this is among the silliest uses of statistics I've ever seen in the ATD. There's no doubt that McGee was dominant for his very short career, but using the raw numbers from those early Cup Challenge games is kind of crazy.
It doesn't "bother me so much." You said/implied something wrong so I described it as such and as you continued to say wrong/ignorant things I continued to describe them as such. If it looks like I'm overreacting it's because you insist on defending it.
Meh, whatever. I really did mean it as a knock on the Iginla of these days. I have nothing but respect for the legacy he's built up so far, just not the last few years.
I know some people are weary of him because of the Kurt Cobain effect. But from what I can gather, statistically, Vezina and Benedict were close enough that the gap there is, just shouldn't be there.
Do 7 time top 10 Norris trophy finishers qualify as pure PP specialists?
The offensive gap isn't nearly large enough to make up for the fact that Federko was an offense-only player.
If Gonchar is competent in his own zone in an all-time sense, the number of defensemen who are "bad" in their own zone can be counting on your fingers.
Francis was great two ways and didn't shy away from taking a hit to make a play for example, but, at least from what I remember of him, you're in trouble if you're expecting him to win a lot of physical battles for loose pucks.
He wasn't physically intimidating at all despite having pretty decent size.
When I went back and looked at last year's ATD draft I was shocked to see how late this guy was taken. We feel that this is a much more appropriate spot for him...
The Chicago Steelers are very pleased to select RW, Mark Recchi
Oh my god. Thank God.
Duke Keats, center. He's probably the perfect center for Denneny at this point. PM'ing BC.
His awesome longevity makes him worthy of being a top 250, you're right.
What sturm is saying would be fitting under;
Most guys in that era typically had short careers.
Why is he the perfect center for Denneny, and not just one of the best centers availble?
His career GAA (NHL & NHA) is almost a full goal per game more than Benedict; or about 40% higher. I think he's an appropriate pick right now (and better than Giacomin, Smith, Fuhr, Cheevers, Lumley, and in the same tier as Hainsworth and Worsley) but there should be a pretty big gap there from Benedit to Vezina, IMO.
This is true. Francis had great vision and anticipation and stood just outside the scrums waiting for the puck to pop out.
Nels Stewart is possibly believable as a puckwinner though, given his size and strength.
The things that you are talking about are physically impossible for a man of Krutov's physical stature to perform at a high level for long periods of time in a row, particularly the skating. If he was indeed doing all those things so well without any sign of tiring, I'm going to have to subscribe to Sturminator's steroids theory, unfortunately.
This is true. Francis had great vision and anticipation and stood just outside the scrums waiting for the puck to pop out.
Nels Stewart is possibly believable as a puckwinner though, given his size and strength.
I seem to remember a newspaper article coming up a draft or two ago that said Stewart was pretty allergic to corner work.
I did the math, and yes, there is a gap, but half what you think it is, starting from 1914-15, where Benedict first became Ottawa's lone goalie, until 1924-25, Vezina's last full season:
Benedict: 2.96
Vezina: 3.44
Using the outside years is statistical smoke as the earlier years were higher scoring and the latter years lowerr scoring, irregardless of goalie.
What I disagree though, is people who think he shouldn't even crack an ATD lineup.
Vezina played behind a very nasty D pairing that included Sprague Cleghorn and another guy. To say his team was bad is misleading.
....Vezina's case isn't helped by him playing 4 less seasons, but I would strongly disagree that his teams sucked.
Vezina played behind a very nasty D pairing that included Sprague Cleghorn and another guy. To say his team was bad is misleading.
Benedict got to play behind the strong Ottawa defensive system, though, for at least half his career. Actually, Benedict's team was very, very good in Ottawa. The Maroons team he went to wasn't that special, but it progressively got better, with the additions of Babe Siebert and Hooley Smith, for example.
Vezina's case isn't helped by him playing 4 less seasons, but I would strongly disagree that his teams sucked. On paper, his team's offense was better than anything Benedict ever played behind, and this applies to his whole career. On paper, I don't see a huge disconnect between Benedict's Maroons teams (which were probably worse than Vezina's teams), and Vezina's teams. The only time I'd say Benedict had the team advantage was in Ottawa, but again, only half his career.
I dunno.. as far as team strength, averaging their careers out, I'd say it's about even.
OK, good point, I never thought of that.
However, the years before and after shouldn't be ignored, either - it's important to know whether these two goalies were maintaining averages above or below the league average.
Benedict only had one year with the Maroons when Vezina was in the NHL. Over the 11 year period where they were peers, 10 were spent in Ottawa.
As for Cleghorn, there's two things:
One: He played a lot of LW in Montreal.
Two: Was he actually that good defensively? He modelled his game after Cyclone Taylor and had a viscous mean streak. Does any of that apply to actually playing good defence?
There are a lot of unimpeachable offensive players on Vezina's teams: Lalonde, Pitre, Cleghorn, Morenz, Hall and others. But, how much do we know about them defensively. You recently put forth the shadow of doubt on Lalonde. Pitre is known to have some attitude and commitment problems. Morenz was young when he played with Vezina and probably weaker than he was latter on. We look at the fact that these dynamite offensive teams were average overall. We have to take a serious look at the defensive ability of the players on them.
That's why I said "on paper".. I'm alluding to Vezina being part of the problem of why the team wasn't winning.
Agreed. As I've said, I make no attempt to say he's better than Benedict, just that he's only a tier or so down, rather than 3-4 tiers down like cannon says.
What this goes to show is that adding on weight has a very profound effect on a person's ability to move at all, nevermind skate. This is why I have such a hard time believing that Krutov was naturally fast, despite his stature. His overweight stature would dictate that he would be slow and tire very easily. There's a reason why NHL teams suspend players who do not show up in shape at training camp. It's not that they're not good, it's just that they are not able to physically maintain themselves in the grueling work of the game.