ATD #10 Rene Lecavalier Final - Montreal Canadiens (1) vs. Le Rocket de Montreal (3)

God Bless Canada

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Jul 11, 2004
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Bentley reunion
Montreal Canadiens
GM: Hockey Outsider
Coach: Hap Day

Sid Smith - Bryan Trottier (C) - Pavel Bure
Esa Tikkanen - Doug Gilmour (A) - Bill Mosienko
George Hay - Dick Irvin, Sr. - B-A Gustafsson
Don Marcotte - Derek Sanderson - Ed Westfall (A)
extras: Don Lever - Tomas Sandstrom

Valeri Vasiliev - Vitali Davydov
Mark Howe - Zdeno Chara
Bill Hajt - Bobby Rowe
extra: Sandis Ozolinsh

Dominik Hasek
Gerry McNeil

Power play units:
PP1: Sid Smith - Bryan Trottier - Pavel Bure - Mark Howe - Zdeno Chara
PP2: Dick Irvin - Doug Gilmour - Bill Mosienko - Valeri Vasiliev - Sandis Ozolinsh

Penalty killing units:
PK1: Marcotte - Sanderson - Mark Howe - Zdeno Chara
PK2: Westfall - Gilmour - Valeri Vasiliev - Vitali Davydov

Le Rocket de Montreal
Co-GMs: God Bless Canada & raleh
Coach: Al Arbour

Alexander Ovechkin - Howie Morenz (A) - Bernie Geoffrion (C)
Busher Jackson - Joe Primeau - Tod Sloan (A)
Dick Duff - Rick MacLeish - Jerry Toppazzini
Keith Tkachuk - Red Sullivan - John McKenzie
extras: Art Chapman, Peter McNab

Serge Savard (A) - Jimmy Thomson
Wally Stanowski - Moose Vasko
Jimmy Watson - Behn Wilson
extra: Joe Watson

Gump Worsley
Hugh Lehman

Power play units:
PP1: Ovechkin - Morenz - Sloan - Geoffrion - Thomson
PP2: Jackson - Primeau - MacLeish - Savard - Vasko

Penalty killing units:
PK1: Duff - MacLeish - Watson - Vasko
PK2: Toppazzini - Primeau - Savard - Stanowski
PK3: McKenzie-Morenz-Thomson-Wilson
PK4: Sloan-Sullivan-Watson-Savard​
 
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God Bless Canada

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Jul 11, 2004
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Bentley reunion
I want to begin by wishing my friend, colleague, and occasional rival Hockey Outsider the best of luck. It seems like we meet in a final of some sort every couple of drafts. A win for Le Rocket would probably establish this as the best rivalry in the ATD.

Let's keep it clean and positive. While HO and Murphy are both friends of mine, a series with HO will take a far different tone than a series with Murphy. Murphy and I would be embroiled in an ATD smack-off. With HO, it'll probably be positive and respectful. Unless HO wants to go in the smack-off direction. raleh and I would be happy to oblige if he does.

More extensive thoughts will be coming later.
 

Hockey Outsider

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Jan 16, 2005
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Looking forward to another good series with GBC & raleh. Congrats for making it this far; I'll try to post some comments tomorrow.

How are the boys feeling after seven games with those Maroons?

It wasn't an easy series, but I'd give to the edge to the team that has played seven games in town, versus the team that played thirteen games in New Jersey and Sweden. :)
 

God Bless Canada

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Bentley reunion
We're going to try to get the Savard/Thomson tandem out there against Trottier's line as much as possible, and the Vasko/Stanowski tandem out there against Mosienko as much as possible. We want the combination of physical play and hockey sense from Savard's pairing out there against Bure and Trottier. And we want the mobility, toughness and all-round game of the Vasko duo out there against Gilmour and Mosienko as much as possible.

I think one of the things that really hurt the Maroons in the last series is they didn't have that mobile, defensive sound second pairing to play against the Mosienko line. That won't be an issue for us.

When HO got Mosienko, the first thing that went through my mind was "typical." HO always seems to get a player or two like that in the draft. Mosienko's a fleet-footed, highly skilled player. The other thing that went through my mind was "I'm glad we have Savard and Vasko to anchor our top two pairings," because those are the kind of guys you need to play against Bure and Mosienko.

Even though Watson's our No. 4 and Stanowski's our No. 5, we couldn't pass up the chance to team up Stanowski and Vasko's mobility. It paid off against a fleet-footed Stockholm team. It'll really pay off here.

Line matching isn't as important. With the defensive ability of Morenz, Primeau, MacLeish and Sullivan, we can roll four lines. We'd like to have Duff out there against Bure as much as possible, but we're more concerned with getting Savard - the best defenceman and the best defensive defenceman in this series - out there against Bure as much as we can.

I think we have an advantage in speed. Hard to say it against a team with Bure and Mosienko. But with guys like Jackson, Morenz, Geoffrion and Ovechkin up front, and then the mobility on the back end, I think we have a faster team. This could be a tough match-up for Chara. I think the world of Chara, he's a defining player in his generation, but I think he could have some troubles against some of the speedsters that the appropriately named Le Rocket can trot out there. He's also had some struggles in the post-season.

And I think we have an edge in secondary scoring. We have two thirds of the Kid Line, and we have a gritty goal scorer to open up room and finish off their chances. We have two outstanding clutch scorers on our third line. And we have a fourth line capable of getting a few goals in a seven-game series. And I don't think anyone doubts this will be a seven-game series.

We give the edge to the Habs in net. Hasek's playoff portfolio is a roller coaster. A lot of good. Some bad. And some really bad. Sometimes a guy doesn't play well. But he bailed on his team a couple times (97 and 06), and he became a distraction both years. That's his biggest playoff black eye, not his paltry performance in 1995. Worsley was awesome for the Habs in the mid to late 60s. That's what cemented his legacy. No goalie could have ever won a Stanley Cup with those Ranger teams of the late 50s and early 60s. Worsley showed just how good he was once he reached Montreal. Those post-season performances from 65 to 69 were tremendous. As I've said before, though, there isn't a big difference between the No. 1 goalie (Plante) and the No. 28 goalie (Lumley).

We have the edge behind the bench. I don't think it's a big one - there isn't much separating the top seven or eight coaches. Arbour's No. 3 on our list. Day would be in the 5-7 range. (Along with Irvin and Patrick). We just beat the team that had No. 4 on our list (Ivan).

As I said in our last series, I was pretty choked when we took Arbour in 12, and watched Ivan and Day get scooped up by our top rivals (New Jersey and the Habs, respectively). We still do it (especially since we still got MacLeish in 13). But I was hoping Arbour would start a run of coaches, and NJ and the Habs would have to dip into second-tier guys like Pete Green and Tommy Gorman. We have the edge behind the bench. It's just not as big as I wanted.

But I still think we have enough smarts, enough speed, enough depth throughout the line-up to do what only one other team has done, and that's beat an HO-assembled team.
 

Hockey Outsider

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The Canadiens’ advantages & strategy

Strategy. Given that I have home ice advantage, I will play may top line against the Rockets’ bottom line four times this series. I find it unlikely that Red Sullivan would be able to maintain his scoring pace (two years as a top-ten scorer) facing off against Bryan Trottier, which means the Rockets will have to sacrifice some of their depth scoring (unless they want a wide-open Trottier/Sullivan match-up, which I would welcome). Trottier was also an excellent face-off winner (source) which means my team’s scoring line will usually have an advantage in number of possessions. Furthermore, Tkachuk was at best an indifferent defensive player and he would be unable to match Bure’s great speed. This should allow my best goal-scorer a lot of room to maneuver against a much slower power forward. Vasiliev will use his excellent playmaking ability to set up Bure on rushes down the right wing.

I will match our second lines – as I argue later, my second line forwards have a big advantage in playoff scoring and Gilmour/Tikkanen will provide aggressive forechecking, big hits and solid two-way play. I will play the Howe/Chara pair with Gilmour’s line. This way Chara’s average speed is not a liability (as it would have been against the speedy Morenz/Ovechkin duo) and Howe & Mosienko can use their speed together to create an aggressive transitional offense.

I will match my fourth line against the Rockets’ top line. Although nobody can completely shut down a Morenz/Geoffrion duo, my Westfall-Sanderson-Marcotte line has a combination of speed, toughness and disciplined positional play that should contain them. Westfall “quickly established himself as a top defensive forward, combining intellect and speed to shut down the opposition's top gunners” (source) while Sanderson “was as tough as nails, a tremendous forechecker and faceoff specialist and, with Ed Westfall, the top penalty killer of his era” (source). Marcotte was a “great two-way player and penalty killer who could dish out bone-jarring hits” (source). Sanderson’s advantage on face-offs will reduce the amount of time the Morenz line has the puck; the line’s physical play should wear out Morenz and Geoffrion, who have already played two tough rounds.

Offensive depth. I think a comparison of our second and third lines shows that the Canadiens have an advantage in secondary scoring. Yes, the Rockets have two-thirds of the Kid Line. However, they replaced the line’s best player, five-time goal-scoring leader Charlie Conacher, with Tod Sloan, a solid player but not a dominant scorer by any means. In the playoffs, nobody on the Rockets’ second line can match Gilmour’s consistently excellent performances (1st in ’86, 2nd in ’93, 4th in ’94, 5th in ’89). In the regular season Tikkanen was a very marginal scoring talent but he transformed into an offensive leader (3rd, 4th,, 5th and 6th place finishes in goal-scoring) in the playoff. Even if we ignore the fact that Gilmour and Tikkanen also spent time killing penalties and were aggressive hitters & forecheckers, I believe I have the two best playoff performers on either second line.

The players on the Rockets’ third line spent a combined two years in the top ten in scoring. Yes, Duff was a good playoff performer but he was never a consistent, elite offensive talent. If the Rockets want him to take chances offensively, then it will open up a lot of room for Bure, and I’d be very happy with that trade-off. Toppazzinni was a good PKer and a solid checker but his career high of 50 pts (20th in the league) is nothing special. MacLeish, to his credit, does have two years as a top-ten scorer. In contrast, my third line features Dick Irvin (a four-time WCHL all-star who finished in the top five in goals & top ten in scoring four times). As soon as he switched to the NHL (1927) he led the league in assists and was second only to Bill Cook in scoring. Irvin is re-united with his LW George Hay, the four-time WCHL all-star, who finished in the top five in goals & points five times in the WCHL & NHL. When GBC discussed the Rocket’s strategy, he mentioned that they would line-match against the Trottier and Gilmour lines. Will the Rockets fatigue their top defensemen by making them double-shift against my dangerous third line? Or will they allow my fast, high-scoring WCHL stars to match up against their third defense pair?

Defensive depth. Although the Rockets likely have the best defenseman in the series, the Canadiens have three of the top four blueliners. I think few would disagree that Savard, Vasiliev and Howe are the three best defensemen in this series (though the order is debatable). However I want to establish that Chara is #4 in this series. Chara has consistently been an excellent penalty killer – since the NHL started tracking PK ice time in 1998, only Lidstrom, Chelios and Pronger have spent more time killing penalties (source). Adjusted for era or not, Chara is clearly larger and stronger than Thomson and Vasko (and is more disciplined too). Chara isn’t a conventional offensive threat but he won the fastest slapshot competition at the all-star game in 2007 & 2008 (source) and has scored more goals than every defenseman except one since 2003 (which establishes he’s clearly better offensively than Vasko and is likely comparable to Thomson). Chara has ranked 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 7th in Norris voting (source) and his three all-star berths match Thomson & Vasko combined. Plus/minus is a limited statistic, obviously, but Chara has placed 1st, 3rd, 4th and 9th in plus/minus on the Senators in the playoffs – which suggests that it’s unfair to blame their PO failures on their best defensive defenseman. I think Chara is consistently underrated in the ATD forum and has already accomplished more than Thomson and Vasko.

Having three of the top four defensemen in this series means that Savard will be overworked while my Habs can enjoy a less strenuous, more even distribution of ice time. I feel confident limiting Howe and Vasiliev to 25-27 minutes per game (since they can each share the toughest assignments with another top-100 all-time plyer) – Savard does not have that luxury. This is an especially large advantage given that my team is well-rested, having only played one series so far (admittedly it was against a tough team, though the fact that it was in the same city reduces some of the stress/fatigue). The Rockets have already been through two difficult series and have had to deal with a long intercontinental travel schedule, which can take its toll as they enter their third round.

Countering le Rockets’ advantages & strategy
Goaltending. I disagree that Hasek was a “roller coaster” in the playoffs. To quote myself from the last matchup: “Since he became a starter in 1994, only twice (in ten years) did Hasek have a save percentage below 91.5% in the playoffs (once in 1995, and once at age 43 last year). Only three times did he have a GAA above 2.10”. But I know you were mostly concerned with Hasek’s attitude. I’ll concede he acted foolishly in 1997 (earning a three-game suspension for attacking a reporter) but I think that the Hasek “distraction” in 2006 was overhyped; he “bailed” on his teammates because he didn’t play while injured; had he played through injury and performed poorly (see Thornton in ’04) he would have been criticized anyway. Expecting a 41 year old goalie to miraculously save a franchise that had a history of underperforming in the playoffs was unrealistic; I feel Hasek was used as a scapegoat by the underperforming Sens.

Actually, I think that there’s an interesting contrast between Hasek and Worsley. When Worsley was the starter on a poor team (1953-1963), he earned no personal accolades and was eliminated in the first round of the playoffs all four years he qualified (never having a GAA below 3.28). When Hasek was the starter on a poor team (1994-2001), he won two Harts, six Vezinas and dragged a team led by Alexei Zhitnik, Mike Peca and Miro Satan to the Stanley Cup finals. (Just to be clear, Worsley’s Rangers were likely better than Hasek’s Sabres. Worsley had seven full years of prime Bill Gadsby, a Norris year from Doug Harvey, and almost the full prime from Andy Bathgate). This highlights the goaltending advantage in this series – Worsley accomplished nothing of note on a weak NYR team (where he played until age 33) while Hasek proved to be an all-time great playing on an even weaker franchise.

Speed. It would be difficult to argue that either team has a major advantage in speed. Hay (source), Mosienko (source), (source), Westfall (source), Vasiliev (source), Bure and Ozolinsh (no sources necessary) were all excellent skaters.

Coaching. I concede that the Rockets have a slight advantage in coaching. Arbour is the #2 coach of all-time on my list, and Day is in the 4-7 range. As GBC himself wrote, “there isn't much separating the top seven or eight coaches” so this shouldn’t have a major impact on the series.

Overall. GBC and raleh have, like always, built a tough and talented team. I think my advantages in goal, secondary scoring, and high-end defensemen will allow me to prevail in a seven-game series.
 

God Bless Canada

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Where did I say we would match lines? I said we would match defensive pairings - Savard's duo against Bure, and Vasko's duo against Mosienko. I said it would be nice to get Duff out there against Bure, but it's not a pre-requisite. If we get the Morenz line or the Primeau line out there against Trotts and Bure, we're cool with that. We can play any of our lines against any of Montreal's lines.

I think a lot of people have forgotten how good Tkachuk was early in his career. I watched him play every minute of every game in the 92 and 93 playoffs. I thought he was Winnipeg's most consistent forward in 92 (one of the few guys who didn't melt down in the final three games) and I thought he was their best forward in the 93 series. He was actually really good defensively at that point, and up to about 98, when his all-round game deteriorated and he started to fizzle in the post-season. Worth noting is that in 92 and 93, he was often matched up against Bure, and it wasn't a good match-up for Bure. Tkachuk drove Pavel nuts, to the point where Pavel slew-footed Tkachuk. Don Cherry infamously called Bure "a weasel" after the slew foot.

You cite playoff scoring, but you're making an apples and oranges argument. Gilmour and Tik are tremendous playoff performers. You won't hear me question their playoff performance. But Primeau's pace of .61 PPG is actually pretty impressive when you look at a lot of the top players from the 30s, and Busher Jackson had 23 points in 40 games in his peak years from 31 to 37. Again, that's impressive considering the typical game in the 30s was 2-1 or 3-1. (Except in 1932, when Jackson and Primeau helped light up the Rangers for 18 goals in three games).

If you want to match up Chara against the tremendous speed of Busher Jackson, be my guest. Jackson's speed, skill, stick-handling and aggressiveness will cause a lot of problems for Big Z. I would agree that on the surface Chara is the fourth-best defenceman in this series (I think he's damn close to being an HHOFer). But in this series, his lack of mobility could be an issue, especially if you want him out there against Jackson. He might have accomplished more than Thomson or Vasko, but Thomson and Vasko will be better in this specific series, with these specific match-ups, than Chara.

The Vasko and Stanowski duo might actually be the most effective pairing in this series because of their physical play, their aggressiveness, their smarts and their top-notch mobility. It's a pairing that works. I don't know if I would say the same about Howe and Chara in this specific match-up.

If you play that Marcotte fourth line against the Morenz line, your fourth line will lead your forwards in ice time. That's not a good idea at all.

Jimmy Watson was a damn good defensive defneceman. He's probably one of the best third-pairing defencemen left in the draft. So we're confident in having him out there against the Dick Irvin line.

This is Duff and MacLeish's time of year. I'm not that concerned about finishes in top 10 scoring. MacLeish led two Cup champs in scoring. How many players in this series can say that? (And MacLeish had one of the top 25 players of all-time on his team to boot). Duff was second on the Leafs in scoring in 62, and second on the Habs in scoring in 69. He also set the Stanley Cup final record for fastest two goals in a game. Regular season accomplishments are nice, but we selected Duff and MacLeish for their two-way abilities and their playoff excellence.

Are you even trying to compare the teams that Hasek and Worsley were playing behind? Hasek was not on poor teams in Buffalo. Those were good teams who played a strong team game, and they were very well coached. When they got to the Cup final in 99, yeah, Hasek was their MVP. But they also had a magnificent performance from Mike Peca, who shut down Yashin, Allison and Sundin. Buffalo missed the playoffs once during Hasek's eight-year run from 94 to 01. When Hasek went down for most of the season in 99-2000, they still made the playoffs. When Hasek quit on his team early in the 97 playoffs, they still made it to the second round. And Hasek wouldn’t have changed that second round result against Philly.

Worsley was mired on hapless Ranger teams for more than a decade. The Rangers made the playoffs four times from 53 to 64. Twice they were matched up against the Habs dynasty. Once they played the Leafs dynasty. And then they played the Rangers once, which, I will admit, was not a good performance by Worsley. It was the only time in those 12 years that the Rangers had a remote shot of winning a playoff series. No goalie, ever, was going to win a playoff series in New York from that time, except for in 58.

Once Gump got to Montreal, he showed what he was capable of. Four Cups in five years. Two absolutely sensational performances in 66 and 68. It’s too bad he was saddles with horrible Ranger teams in front of him for most of his career. He could have done some absolutely incredible things if he was on a good team.

Hasek’s in my top four for goalies. (Plante, Roy and Sawchuk are the top three). But we just beat the guy who is No. 5 on my list for goalies (Hall) and we beat No. 6 (Brodeur), too. So goaltending hasn’t been an issue yet. And Hasek isn’t that much better than Hall or Brodeur that it will become an issue.

And Hasek quit on his team in the playoffs. Twice. And he allowed himself to become a distraction to his team three times, hindering his team's chances for success.
 

raleh

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Well my first point was going to be a comparrison of Gump's Ranger teams and Hasek's Buffalo teams, but GBC already made it. Although the one thing I want to add is that HO, you talked about some oft he players in front of Gump and made a pretty good point. Yes they had Gadsby, yes they had Bathgate, yes they had a good Harvey year. And yes, head to head they would likely beat Hasek's Sabres. But we're talking about a six team league. The talent obviously wasn't as spread out as it was in the late '90's so of course every team is going to have some big names. But comparitavely, those Rangers were far worse than the Sabres. The gap between them and the top two or three teams in the league was FAR greater than that of Buffalo. Compare what they had to the Habs, then compare what the Sabres had to the Stars. Then tell me the Sabres were better. No way.

As for secondary scoring in this series: Jackson and Primeau were the second and third best scorers on a stanley cup winning team in the same year they were first and second in league scoring (another guy on our team was third that year). The next year, Busher again outscored Conacher and everyone else in the league except for Bill Cook while Primeau was third in team scoring. The next year, while the team laid an egg in the playoffs, Joe Primeau lead the leafs in playoff assists and points and was just about the only bright spot with 6 points in 5 games. The third member of this line, Todd Sloan, tied for his team lead in playoff points with 8 points in 6 games against the greatest team of all time in '59. One of the very few teams ever to have a goalie better than the one Le Rocket are facing. He also tied with Ted Kennedy for third in team playoff scoring on a cup winning team in '51 with the Leafs and put up more goals than everyone but Sid Smith.

That's just the second line. Rick MacLeish, on the third line as GBC has already mentioned was the leading playoff scorer on back to back cup champions. But what he hasn't mentioned was the way in which he did it. In '74, he outscored Bobby Clarke, the second highest scorer by 6 points over a 17 game period. His 13 goals were more than twice as many as anyone else on those Flyers teams. He scored more goals than Clarke, Barber, and Lonsberry combined and they were the next highest scorers on that team. He out pointed Bobby Orr and Phil Esposito and had four more goals than Espo, one of the greatest goal scorers of all time. The next year he did it again, scoring just one less goal than the two next best on his team (Clarke and Leach) combined. He outscored Buffalo's French Connection line en route to leading a second post season in points, although Lafleur scored one less than him in 6 less games. So MacLeish wasn't just leading cup champions in points, he was absolutely dominating point wise. Come playoff time, he was by far his team's best offensive weapon.

So I'm having a tough time seeing how offensive depth is one of the edges for the Habs. Not only do I disagree with this, I think it's a significant edge for Le Rocket, as is scoring in general.

In fact, not that trophies mean everything, and there are a lot of factors, but without looking too deeply into it, I'm only seeing one Art Ross trophy among all of HO's forwards. And, arguably, only two/three players who were consistently the go to offensive guy on their teams.

And, having just re-read your post HO, feel free to play the Westfall-Sanderson-Marcotte line against our top line for 25 minutes a game. I'll really enjoy seeing Trotts and Dougie on the bench.
 
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Hockey Outsider

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These discussions are the best part of the ATDs. I wish I had more time to dedicate to this, but here's a starter:

Very little has been said abouth Valeri Vasiliev and I feel it’s important to emphasize that he can be a difference-maker in this series. Personally I never realize how tough and physical Vasiliev was until I re-watched the ’72 Summit Series a few weeks ago. Vasliev was a great mix between tenacity and disciplne; he “loved to play physical game with effective and seemingly effortless bodychecking” but also “looked like one of the cleanest hitters” (source). He was “considered by many to be the toughest and most physical defenseman in Russian hockey history” and was described as a "born leader" and compared to Tim Horton. (source).

Vasiliev earned a spot on eight Soviet all-star teams from 1973-1981 (source); to anticipate any “quality of competition” arguments I’ll note Fetisov’s prime lasted from 1978-1988, which indicates that Vasiliev spent his prime against tough competition (unless Soviet hockey suddenly matured between '73 and '78). Vasiliev was named the best defenseman in three international tournaments (1973, 1977, 1979).

Described as a "slick skater and passer" (source), Vasiliev was a dominant rusher at times, finished 3rd behind only Fetisov and Kasatnov in Soviet defensemen in scoring (source). He was described as being better defensively than Fetisov and even Kasatanov and “had a big part in neutralizing Wayne Gretzky, Guy Lafleur, Marcel Dionne and the other Canadian superstars in the 1981 Canada Cup final” (source). I view Savard and Vasiliev as equals; this means that Howe, the three-time Norris runer-up, two-time Hart finalist and very likely the best skater and best offensive defenseman in this series, gives my team a decisive 1-2 punch on the blueline, while there's a big drop-off from Savard to Thomson or Vasko.

The Vasko and Stanowski duo might actually be the most effective pairing in this series because of their physical play, their aggressiveness, their smarts and their top-notch mobility. It's a pairing that works. I don't know if I would say the same about Howe and Chara in this specific match-up.

Chara and Howe are perfect complements as Chara provides the goal-scoring (2nd in defenseman goals since 2003), size, toughness, and a powerful slaptshot while Howe provides excellent speed, playmaking ability, and subtle positional play. Both players strengths offset the other’s weaknesses, making this a complete and balanced pair. Vasko and Stanowski might be equals in the defensive zone, but they simply did not produce as much offense as Chara or Howe. I realize that all-star selections are limited, but my pair has a 6-3 edge in year-end all-star appearances (including a 4-1 first-team advantage) and, as I argued, perfectly offset each other's weaknesses.

If you want to match up Chara against the tremendous speed of Busher Jackson, be my guest. Jackson's speed, skill, stick-handling and aggressiveness will cause a lot of problems for Big Z...

I realize that era and nutrition account for some of the difference, but I find it unlikely that a 6’9”, 255 lb Chara would be intimidated by a 5’11”, 195 lb Jackson. He was large for his era, but Chara was the largest and one of the strongest players in NHL history. It’s one thing to say that Chara has average speed; it’s another to talk about his “lack of mobility”. Chara doesn’t look graceful, but he’s rarely caught out of position. Since he became an elite defender five years ago, Chara has faced all of the league’s best forwards and holds his own against the league’s fastest players – what he lacks in high-end speed he makes up for in positioning and physical play.

You cite playoff scoring, but you're making an apples and oranges argument. Gilmour and Tik are tremendous playoff performers. You won't hear me question their playoff performance. But Primeau's pace of .61 PPG is actually pretty impressive when you look at a lot of the top players from the 30s, and Busher Jackson had 23 points in 40 games in his peak years from 31 to 37. Again, that's impressive considering the typical game in the 30s was 2-1 or 3-1. (Except in 1932, when Jackson and Primeau helped light up the Rangers for 18 goals in three games).

Gilmour was 1st (1986), 2nd (1993), 4th (1994), 5th (1989) in playoff scoring (not to mention some shorter runs like 17 pts in 10 games) while Jackson was 1st (1935), 4th (1932), 6th (1933) 7th (1936) playing in a much smaller league. It’s close but statistically Gilmour was the better playoff scorer and we all know Gilmour was a great checker and defensive forward; I haven’t read anything that indicates that Jackson was particularly good defensively.

This is Duff and MacLeish's time of year. I'm not that concerned about finishes in top 10 scoring. MacLeish led two Cup champs in scoring. How many players in this series can say that? (And MacLeish had one of the top 25 players of all-time on his team to boot). Duff was second on the Leafs in scoring in 62, and second on the Habs in scoring in 69. He also set the Stanley Cup final record for fastest two goals in a game. Regular season accomplishments are nice, but we selected Duff and MacLeish for their two-way abilities and their playoff excellence.

All of my top six forwards deliver in the playoffs. Trottier was the leading PO scorer twice (1980, 1982) and was runner-up in 1981. Gilmour led the PO in scoring in 1986 and placed in the top five four more times (1986, 1989, 1993, 1994). Tikkanen peaked at 3rd (1990), 4th (1991), 5th (1997) and 6th (1988) in goals. Bure led the playoffs in goals (1994) and also placed 7th (1995), while Smith was 2nd twice (1949, 1951) and 10th once (1955). I’ll concede that Bill Mosienko never had a defining PO run. Even my depth forwards scored well – Sanderson led the playoffs in goal-scoring in 1969 (tying Esposito) and placed 7th the next year, while Westfall placed 7th and 8th in PO scoring while playing a defensive role. Even Marcotte, as pure a defensive player as one can find, managed to contribute a top ten in PO goals performance was (1977).

If you play that Marcotte fourth line against the Morenz line, your fourth line will lead your forwards in ice time. That's not a good idea at all.

I won’t play my fourth line against the Morenz line every minute, a cap of 12-14 minutes per game should be sufficient to greatly reduce the time & space le Rockets’ top line has to operate.

Worth noting is that in 92 and 93, he was often matched up against Bure, and it wasn't a good match-up for Bure. Tkachuk drove Pavel nuts, to the point where Pavel slew-footed Tkachuk. Don Cherry infamously called Bure "a weasel" after the slew foot.

I remember the ’92 and ’93 fairly well. Yes, Tkachuk seemed to frustrate Bure at times, but the bottom line is he couldn’t contain him. Bure scored 11 goals in 23 games (a 39-goal pace), with Ronning as his centre. I’d imagine Bure would do a bit better receiving passes from Trottier. Another point is that early Tkachuk (from 92/93) wasn’t anywhere close to the elite goal-scorer he’d later become (31 goals in 100 games through two seasons). Early Tkachuk played defense but was a marginal scorer; I’m happy with that trade-off.

Are you even trying to compare the teams that Hasek and Worsley were playing behind? Hasek was not on poor teams in Buffalo. Those were good teams who played a strong team game, and they were very well coached.

It’s almost impossible to overstate how important Hasek was to the Sabres. History shows that the Sabres were an expansion-calibre team when Hasek was out of the line-up, regardless of their coaching or team’s philosophy. When Hasek played, Sabres won 55.3% of their games (on pace for 91 pts in the standings). When Hasek’s backups played the Sabres won 38.3% of their games (on pace for 63 pts in the standings) (source). Playing behind identical defenses Hasek posted a 2.17 GAA while his backups posted a 3.02 GAA. The fact that Hasek won back-to-back Hart trophies playing behind Alexei Zhitnik and Jason Wolley is staggering.

Let’s do the same analysis for Worsley. The Rangers, without Worsley, won 38.2% of their games and Worlsey won 45.2% of his games (source). This shows that the Sabres (without Hasek) and the Rangers (without Worsley) both won 38% of their games. Yet Worsley won 45% of his games and Hasek won 55%.

I’ll modify my original position – the stats show that both netminders were on equally bad teams, but it’s clear how much of a difference Hasek made to his lineup (relative to Worsley).

Defense wins in the playoffs, and I feel my advantages in goal and at the #2 defenseman spot will result in a seven-game win.
 
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Sturminator

Love is a duel
Feb 27, 2002
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West Egg, New York
GBC said:
This is Duff and MacLeish's time of year. I'm not that concerned about finishes in top 10 scoring.

This is one of the arguments I disagree most with in the ATD. Regular season achievements cannot be simply disregarded as irrelevant as soon as the postseason starts. The ATD playoff are not an exact replay of history, and a player's regular and postseason accomplishments are only an indication of how he may perform, not a guarantee. A lot depends on strategy, matchups and luck.

The way I see it is this:

- regular season accomplishments are by far the better measure of a player's overall talent level.

- postseason accomplishments are the best measure of how a player performs in the clutch (though there are clutch regular season games and situations, as well).

I weigh both factors when assessing how I think a player will do in the playoffs. The idea that guys like Marcel Dionne and Claude Lemieux magically morph, He-Man style, into other people as soon as the playoffs start, I find laughable. Dionne has problems as a team leader and facing high-end checking pressure, but in the right situation, he can still excel. Lemieux's intensity level in pressure situations was off the charts and he was good at being in the right place at the right time, but he doesn't start dipsy-doodling Max Bentley style in the postseason. He's still just a clutch roleplayer. It is for this reason that I don't knock Howie Morenz too much for his fairly pedestrial postseason record. He wasn't amazing, but didn't prove himself to be a choker, either, and in terms of talent, well...he's still Howie Morenz.

It is also for this reason that I find even the suggestion that Esa Tikkanen is a better postseason scorer than Busher Jackson silly. By the way, Charlie Conacher was easily the biggest disappointment of the Kid Line players in the postseason; Jackson and Primeau don't have tremendous playoff records, but they weren't leeching, either. Of all the great "postseason roleplayers", I probably have the most problems with Esa Tikkanen in this series, because he is being asked to play a scoringline role, for which I simply don't believe he has the talent. Tikk had a number of years among the league leaders in playoff goal-scoring, but also had highly disproportionate opportunities (as in, a lot of seasons in the finals) and spent most of his time in Edmonton skating on Gretzky's wing. I think Tikk is a fantastic ATD 3rd liner, but I have my doubts about him as a scorer. Gilmour is an excellent 2nd line center who has the talent and clutch reputation to lead the line, but I'm not in love with his wings here.

Overall, this series is very much offense vs. defense, which makes it rather hard to judge. The Habs have a very big advantage in goal (Hasek has the one blemish on his record, but I refuse to blame him for what happened in Ottawa when he was 100 years old) and a clear advantage at the important 2-3 defensemen slots (my opinion on Chara is a matter of record, though the matchup could be easier than Jackson - Primeau), though I like Le Rocket's 3rd pairing a lot and I'm still not sold on Davydov as a 1st unit defenseman. The Canadiens also have the superior checking forwards, as a unit.

Le Rocket simply have better scoring potential - on all four lines, I would say - though not on defense, where I still think puck movement on the 2nd pairing in support (mostly) of the Primeau line could be an issue.
 

God Bless Canada

Registered User
Jul 11, 2004
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To respond to a few things...

*Haven't had a reason to talk about Vasiliev. He's a tremendous player. Just like we haven't had much of a reason to talk about Serge Savard. People know what he brings to the table. We can go on and on about how great Savard was - he's one of the greatest defensive defencemen of all-time. But I think we all know how great he was. So we focus on other things. But if I could have anyone out there against a line that has Trotts and Bure, it would probably be Savard.

*HO, I watched Chara in the 2006 playoffs against Buffalo. He looked really bad out there. You could tell that he was having problems with Buffalo's team speed. A lot of problems with Buffalo's team speed. He did not hold his own. Now he's matched up with Busher Jackson - one of the top 10 LWs of all-time, a fabulous skater and an offensive force? Chara will get exposed. Jackson won't be steam-rolling Chara, but Jackson's tough and aggressive, and he won't be intimidated by Chara.

*Defence isn't just about personel. It's about finding guys that fit. Do we have an edge in personel? No. But I believe our pairings work better. Savard and Thomson work extremely well together - Thomson the tough, skilled, all-round defenceman (he was a No. 1 defenceman on a dynasty) and Savard the big, sturdy two-way defenceman. Puck-moving isn't an issue with our second pairing. They aren't Coffey and Orr, but they skate well, they see the ice well and they move the puck well, whether it's skating the puck up ice or making the first pass. That's what it comes down to. You don't have to rush like Orr, Coffey or Leetch. You just need to make the good first pass out of the zone. That's not an issue for Vasko and Stanowski.

*I believe we do have the edge for clutch scoring. Geoffrion's eight straight seasons with double-digit point totals is incredible. And I remember something in the HOH Top 100 project that he was miles ahead of anyone else for playoff points in the 50s. Duff and MacLeish are tremendous clutch scorers for our third line. We have Pie McKenzie on the fourth line.

*sturm, if you take a deeper look at post-season scoring in the 20s and 30s, you'll see how impressive Howie Morenz's numbers were. Among the top guys who played in both the late 20s and in the 30s, I believe Frank Boucher's .65 PPG is the best. Guys like Nels Stewart, Bill Cook and Aurel Joliat failed to reach .50 PPG, while Dit Clapper was barely over .50 PPG while he was a forward.

*Bure wasn't as effective as the numbers might show in the two playoffs against Winnipeg. I think five or six of those 11 goals came in the final three games in 1992, when the Jets completely melted down and the Canucks rattled off 21 goals in three games. Outside of that, you have five or six goals in 20 games. I watched those series, and Bure wasn't all that effective beyond those three games in 92. Tkachuk was one of the few players who was trying in Games 5, 6 and 7 in 92.

*Tkachuk played well in his own zone from 94 to about 98. It was after 98 that his all-round game really tailed off.

*If the Sabres were so bad without Hasek, why did they win a playoff series without him (and with his distraction) in 1997? Why did they make the playoffs when he missed over half the season in 1999-2000? I'm not diminishing Hasek, but you aren't giving Hasek enough credit. I watched them play. I watched them play in 1999. That was a very good team. Yeah, they benefitted from weaker opposition. (The top four teams in the league in 1998 and 1999 were in the west). But the Sabres from 1996-97 to 1999-2000 were good enough to make the playoffs with a good No. 1. (They weren't going to make the playoffs with Grant Fuhr circa 1993-94, Andrei Trefilov or Robb Staubber in net). Buffalo was a good team with strong coaching that played a strong team game. Did they have stars around Hasek? No. Peca was the only other top 50 player in the league at that time. (Anyone who questions that should watch Peca in the 99 playoffs). But winning in hockey is more about playing the strong team game - having the guys on the ice playing as one - than on-ice talent.
*Also remember that those back-ups usually only played in the second half of back-to-back games, when Hasek needed a breather. So you're not going to get a fair evaluation of how good the team was when Hasek was gone. I think the better look comes from the 1997 playoffs, and the 1999-2000 season.

*I don't blame Hasek for losing in 2006 with Ottawa. A lot of players laid eggs in that series against Buffalo. (The Pizza Line was not effective after Game 1. Take it from the guy who had Heatley and Spezza in his playoff pool). But Hasek absolutely should be blamed for the way in which he handled his "groin injury," which became a distraction to the club and earned Hasek league-wide criticism.
 

Sturminator

Love is a duel
Feb 27, 2002
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West Egg, New York
sturm, if you take a deeper look at post-season scoring in the 20s and 30s, you'll see how impressive Howie Morenz's numbers were. Among the top guys who played in both the late 20s and in the 30s, I believe Frank Boucher's .65 PPG is the best. Guys like Nels Stewart, Bill Cook and Aurel Joliat failed to reach .50 PPG, while Dit Clapper was barely over .50 PPG while he was a forward.

I find your consistent use of point-per-game playoff stats frustrating. Point-per-game numbers are one of the best ways to lie with stats available to us.

At any rate, the "deeper look" business doesn't fly with me. I've looked deeply into scoring from this era, trust me. The problem you have here is that Howie Morenz has exactly two truly impressive playoff years, 1924 and 1925, which according to your own opinions regarding the pre-26 era, means about jack squat. After 1926, Morenz's playoff record is thoroughly unimpressive. In the Habs' two Cup years he was 4th in team scoring on both occasions, put up two goose eggs in his prime and only led the Habs in scoring in two seasons in which they were knocked out in the 1st round.

No, it is not impressive. It's not terrible, either, but you're selling a jar of snake oil trying to pimp Howie Morenz as a playoff hero post-26, because he simply was not.
 

pitseleh

Registered User
Jul 30, 2005
19,164
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The way I see it is this:

- regular season accomplishments are by far the better measure of a player's overall talent level.

- postseason accomplishments are the best measure of how a player performs in the clutch (though there are clutch regular season games and situations, as well).

That's pretty close to how I see it too. I use regular season performance as a measure of the base rate of performance, then try to adjust that level of performance based on playoff success/failures.
 

Hockey Outsider

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Jan 16, 2005
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Sturminator, thanks for the insights.

It is also for this reason that I find even the suggestion that Esa Tikkanen is a better postseason scorer than Busher Jackson silly... Of all the great "postseason roleplayers", I probably have the most problems with Esa Tikkanen in this series, because he is being asked to play a scoringline role, for which I simply don't believe he has the talent. Tikk had a number of years among the league leaders in playoff goal-scoring, but also had highly disproportionate opportunities (as in, a lot of seasons in the finals) and spent most of his time in Edmonton skating on Gretzky's wing. I think Tikk is a fantastic ATD 3rd liner, but I have my doubts about him as a scorer. Gilmour is an excellent 2nd line center who has the talent and clutch reputation to lead the line, but I'm not in love with his wings here.

To clarify, I was comparing Gilmour's scoring ability to Jackson's. I agree that a Tikkanen vs Jackson comparison is laughable. I can understand the concern about having Tik on a scoring line (though I'll address that soon), but Mosienko is a very good second-line scorer. From 1944-1955 (the span of his career), he scored more goals than every player except Howe, Richard & Lindsay; and more points than every player except those three plus Lach and Kennedy. That's an incredible level of production, in an era that featured tough competition. Tikkanen is clearly a complementary player, by design. Gilmour and Mosienko provide elite playmaking & goal-scoring, respectively, while Gilmour and (especially) Tikkanen will use their toughness and forechecking ability to cause turnovers and open up space for the speedy Mosienko.

Overall, this series is very much offense vs. defense, which makes it rather hard to judge. The Habs have a very big advantage in goal (Hasek has the one blemish on his record, but I refuse to blame him for what happened in Ottawa when he was 100 years old) and a clear advantage at the important 2-3 defensemen slots (my opinion on Chara is a matter of record, though the matchup could be easier than Jackson - Primeau), though I like Le Rocket's 3rd pairing a lot and I'm still not sold on Davydov as a 1st unit defenseman. The Canadiens also have the superior checking forwards, as a unit.

My top two defense pairs will receive similar amounts of ice time, so I consider them 1A and 1B pairs (though Davydov, as the weakest of my top four, will receive fewer minutes than the others). There are a fair number of quotes all indicating that Davydov was a rock-solid shutdown defenseman (though he was admittedly limited offensively) but I think his greatest claim to fame is his six all-star berths in the USSR, during the same era as Alexander Ragulin. Clearly Ragulin was the better player but he's not 217 spots better than Davydov. It's also worth mentioning that in the earliest year I could find data for (1970), Davydov was 6th in Soviet MVP voting, sandwiched between Kharlamov and Firsov (source). This shows that he was, at times, a dominant defensive blueliner and I'd be comfortable giving him up to 20 minutes per game.

Le Rocket simply have better scoring potential - on all four lines, I would say - though not on defense, where I still think puck movement on the 2nd pairing in support (mostly) of the Primeau line could be an issue.

I concede that le Rocket have better scoring on their 1st and 4th lines, but I think I hold a decisive advantage on the third line. Le Rockets' third line have a combined two seasons in the top ten in scoring; Dick Irvin alone has an Art Ross runner-up (to Bill Cook) in the NHL plus three top-five scoring finishes in the WCHL. His linemate, George Hay, does even better with two top-ten years in the NHL and three top-five years in the WCHL. As I mentioned in the last series, these were more than just one-way snipers; Irvin was “lauded for his exceptional stickhandling ability, a hard, accurate shot and a cool temperament that kept him out of the penalty box” (source) while Hay posses “speed and poise, aggressiveness and finesse” (source) and was "always willing to play any position” (source). This combination of scoring ability with speed, positional verstality and aggressiveness makes them a dangerous duo.
 

God Bless Canada

Registered User
Jul 11, 2004
11,793
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Bentley reunion
I find your consistent use of point-per-game playoff stats frustrating. Point-per-game numbers are one of the best ways to lie with stats available to us.

At any rate, the "deeper look" business doesn't fly with me. I've looked deeply into scoring from this era, trust me. The problem you have here is that Howie Morenz has exactly two truly impressive playoff years, 1924 and 1925, which according to your own opinions regarding the pre-26 era, means about jack squat. After 1926, Morenz's playoff record is thoroughly unimpressive. In the Habs' two Cup years he was 4th in team scoring on both occasions, put up two goose eggs in his prime and only led the Habs in scoring in two seasons in which they were knocked out in the 1st round.

No, it is not impressive. It's not terrible, either, but you're selling a jar of snake oil trying to pimp Howie Morenz as a playoff hero post-26, because he simply was not.
Where did I say he was a playoff hero? I didn't. I merely noted that his pace isn't as bad as you make it out to be when you consider that several other prominent players who were below half a point-per-game. (All of those players are gimmies for the top 100, and one, Cook, is considered by many to be a top 50).

I've always said that I won't punish a pre-expansion guy whose numbers aren't great, but when I see someone with great post-season numbers (Geoffrion, Kennedy, Max Bentley) it speaks volumes about him.
 

God Bless Canada

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Jul 11, 2004
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Bentley reunion
I don't think Tikkanen is a credible second line player, and I'm a big Tik fan. (I had him in three of four drafts). He's a fine two-way player, a solid agitator, but he had two point-per-game seasons in the 80s. I don't diminish the 80s like some posters, but I would expect more than two point-per-game seasons in the 80s from a second line LW. A bad knee contributed to his rapid decline offensively (he scored at a .75 ppg clip only twice after 1991) but I don't think we were ever going to see more than 70-80 points out of the guy, and I'd want more from a second line LW who played when Tik played.

His playoff record is excellent, with five rings and four impressive post-season performances. I thought he was Edmonton's MVF (Most Valuable Forward) in 1990. His post-season production was hit or miss (nine points in 21 games following his breakthrough in 86-87, four in seven following his career offensive year in 88-89, four points in seven games in his impressive 95 comeback year), but he had some exceptional playoffs.

But is he better than Dick Duff? No. Is he a better clutch scorer than Duff? No. We have Duff on our two-way line. You have Tik on your second line.

Incidentally, HO, how many players played the full stretch from 44 to 55 like Mosienko? Sixth place looks good (and I will agree that Mosienko is a very credible second line scorer) but is it sixth of 30 players? Or is it sixth among 10 players?
 

Hockey Outsider

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Jan 16, 2005
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This will likely be my last post before the majority of the votes are in. Thanks for all the discussion. Once again I believe my team has enough of an advantage in net and on the blueline to win in seven games -- but there would be no shame in losing to the very tough, skilled Rockets.

Puck-moving isn't an issue with our second pairing. They aren't Coffey and Orr, but they skate well, they see the ice well and they move the puck well, whether it's skating the puck up ice or making the first pass. That's what it comes down to. You don't have to rush like Orr, Coffey or Leetch. You just need to make the good first pass out of the zone. That's not an issue for Vasko and Stanowski.

Agreed, but they aren't Howe or Chara either. Howe was one of the fastest defensemen of the 1980s (probably third to Coffey and Ruotsalainen) and is almost certainly the best offensive defenseman in this series. During the 1980s, Howe was third (behind only Coffey and Bourque) in both assists and points. He could clear the puck out of the zone when necessary but was a very good rusher as well -- I've never seen any evidence to indicate that Vasko or Stanowski approach Howe's offensive ability. Although (as I've said before) Chara isn't an exceptional rusher, he still finds a way to generate offense (2nd in defenseman goal-scoring since 2003). Overall I agree your second defense pair provides solid offense, but it still provides far less than my second pair.

But is he better than Dick Duff? No. Is he a better clutch scorer than Duff? No. We have Duff on our two-way line. You have Tik on your second line.

To (partially) quote what I said before: Tikkanen is clearly a complementary player, by design. Gilmour and Mosienko provide elite playmaking & goal-scoring, respectively, while Gilmour and (especially) Tikkanen will use their toughness and forechecking ability to cause turnovers and open up space for the speedy Mosienko. A strong second line doesn't necessarily have three elite scorers -- I wanted my line to have two great scorers and a tough, aggressive, two-way winger to clear space for them.

Incidentally, HO, how many players played the full stretch from 44 to 55 like Mosienko? Sixth place looks good (and I will agree that Mosienko is a very credible second line scorer) but is it sixth of 30 players? Or is it sixth among 10 players?

Mosienko is 9th in goals per game and 11th in points per game from 1944-1955.

*If the Sabres were so bad without Hasek, why did they win a playoff series without him (and with his distraction) in 1997? Why did they make the playoffs when he missed over half the season in 1999-2000? I'm not diminishing Hasek, but you aren't giving Hasek enough credit.

The Sabres never won a full series without Hasek. They went 3-2 against Ottawa in 1997 after Hasek was injured, then lost in five games to the Flyers. The best we can say is that Sabres went 4-6 without Hasek in the playoffs (winning 40% of their games, pretty consistent with the 38% of games their backups won during the regular season).

2000 was likely Hasek's worst season in Buffalo (in reference to his level of play while healthy). Still, the Sabres barely qualified for the playoffs (earning 85 points, while 9th-place Caroline earned 84 points). The fact that they still made the playoffs was due to his ridiculous April stretch drive (source) where he went 3-1-1 and posted a 0.98 GAA and a 95.9% save percentage.

*Bure wasn't as effective as the numbers might show in the two playoffs against Winnipeg. I think five or six of those 11 goals came in the final three games in 1992, when the Jets completely melted down and the Canucks rattled off 21 goals in three games. Outside of that, you have five or six goals in 20 games. I watched those series, and Bure wasn't all that effective beyond those three games in 92. Tkachuk was one of the few players who was trying in Games 5, 6 and 7 in 92.

I concede that Bure offers very little aside from goal-scoring, but you could make a reasonable argument that he's the best goal-scorer in this series (Geoffrion and Morenz obviously give him competition for that claim). I also remember that Bure scored five goals in the three deciding games -- Bure may go dormant for a few games, but when he's on, he can be a game-breaker. Five goals in the three deciding games is series-changing performance and I'd gladly trade it for four games of inactivity.

*HO, I watched Chara in the 2006 playoffs against Buffalo. He looked really bad out there. You could tell that he was having problems with Buffalo's team speed. A lot of problems with Buffalo's team speed. He did not hold his own. Now he's matched up with Busher Jackson - one of the top 10 LWs of all-time, a fabulous skater and an offensive force? Chara will get exposed. Jackson won't be steam-rolling Chara, but Jackson's tough and aggressive, and he won't be intimidated by Chara.

I saw those same games and I disagree. Outside of the first game (I believe Buffalo won 8-6), the Senators simply couldn't score goals. Blaming the series loss on a (primarily) defensive defenseman is incorrect. To be clear, Jackson is certainly a much better player than Chara; but he's proven to be a good enough positional defender over the past five years, that a faster forward doesn't necessarily have the edge.
 
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God Bless Canada

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Jul 11, 2004
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Bentley reunion
This will likely be my last post before the majority of the votes are in. Thanks for all the discussion. Once again I believe my team has enough of an advantage in net and on the blueline to win in seven games -- but there would be no shame in losing to the very tough, skilled Rockets.



Agreed, but they aren't Howe or Chara either. Howe was one of the fastest defensemen of the 1980s (probably third to Coffey and Ruotsalainen) and is almost certainly the best offensive defenseman in this series. During the 1980s, Howe was third (behind only Coffey and Bourque) in both assists and points. He could clear the puck out of the zone when necessary but was a very good rusher as well -- I've never seen any evidence to indicate that Vasko or Stanowski approach Howe's offensive ability. Although (as I've said before) Chara isn't an exceptional rusher, he still finds a way to generate offense (2nd in defenseman goal-scoring since 2003). Overall I agree your second defense pair provides solid offense, but it still provides far less than my second pair.



To (partially) quote what I said before: Tikkanen is clearly a complementary player, by design. Gilmour and Mosienko provide elite playmaking & goal-scoring, respectively, while Gilmour and (especially) Tikkanen will use their toughness and forechecking ability to cause turnovers and open up space for the speedy Mosienko. A strong second line doesn't necessarily have three elite scorers -- I wanted my line to have two great scorers and a tough, aggressive, two-way winger to clear space for them.



Mosienko is 9th in goals per game and 11th in points per game from 1944-1955.



The Sabres never won a full series without Hasek. They went 3-2 against Ottawa in 1997 after Hasek was injured, then lost in five games to the Flyers. The best we can say is that Sabres went 4-6 without Hasek in the playoffs (winning 40% of their games, pretty consistent with the 38% of games their backups won during the regular season).

2000 was likely Hasek's worst season in Buffalo (in reference to his level of play while healthy). Still, the Sabres barely qualified for the playoffs (earning 85 points, while 9th-place Caroline earned 84 points). The fact that they still made the playoffs was due to his ridiculous April stretch drive (source) where he went 3-1-1 and posted a 0.98 GAA and a 95.9% save percentage.

Probably be my last post, too, before the deadline. Winter vacation starts tomorrow.

I believe our advantage in team offfence and secondary scoring, coupled with a minor edge in coaching, will be enough. HO's edge in net is not that pronounced. Not when you look at how good Gump was for five years.

We don't need our defencemen to be dominant offensively. Not with four Art Ross winners, a three-time assists leader, and two outstanding clutch scorers on our third line. We just need our defencemen to effectively and efficiently advance the puck. They need to be able pass the puck out of our own zone, or skate it up the ice, or quickly move it on the transition game. They will absolutely do that. In fact, outside of Jimmy Watson, they're all capable of doing that.

I'll concede that Mark Howe's the best offensive defenceman in this series. But we didn't need a Mark Howe on our team. We needed solid, effective defencemen. I think I just established that we have that. I've been establishing it throughout the draft. If we had a defence corps of guys like Moose Dupont, Keith Magnusson and Dallas Smith, I would be worried about our ability to move the puck. But we don't. Our defencemen are very capable at moving the puck.

The Canadiens needed that top-notch offensive defenceman. And even with Howe, they lag behind Le Rocket in terms of offensive ability.

Chara's skating is an issue. I watched what Buffalo's outstanding speed did to him in 2006. He was really exposed. And in this series, he's going to spend a lot of time matched up against Ovechkin and Jackson. Not a favourable situation for Chara.

HO, you still haven't asked my question of how many guys played the full stretch from 44 to 55. You said where he ranked in GPG and PPG (which is a drop from overall totals, but it shouldn't impact anyone's view that he's a strong second line RW), but you didn't mention how many players played from 44-55.

Almost every GM in this thing watched Buffalo play from 1994-2001. I would hope most GMs would remember the reality of that team. They were a plucky, hard-working team that had excellent coaching and opportunistic scoring. As I said before, Buffalo would usually play their back-up only in situations where they played games on back-to-back nights. So that's going to skewer the numbers. They didn't get much game action. That will affect their numbers. (Goalies thrive with heavy workloads). And Buffalo's back-ups, with the exception of one round from Steve Shields, were far from impressive until Marty Biron arrived in 1999-2000. (Grant Fuhr was terrible in 1993-94, Robb Stauber was terrible, Andrei Trefilov and John Blue were Andrei Trefilov and John Blue, and Dwayne Roloson had yet to find his Minnesota/Edmonton form). When you look at those back-ups, should we be surprised that they won 38 per cent of their games? It's not they actually had Chris Osgood of 1997 vintage, or Roman Turek of 1998 and 1999 vintage, to help Hasek out.

I don't think Hasek changes anything in 1997. I think they beat Ottawa in seven with him. I think they lose to Philly, handily, with him. They still made the playoffs in 2000 with Hasek out for half the season.
 

Jungosi

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Jan 14, 2007
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Rendsburg / Germany
Hockey night in Montreal

After the Canadiens vs. Maroons series the city of Montreal thought it couldn't become worse (or better , it is a matter of perspective). Oh they were wrong. As soon as the series was announced there were civil war-like scenes all over the city. Every newspaper or TV-Show had it's own opinion and every single day let the feelings ran higher. When the games finally started you could basicly see the tension in the air.

No one was suprised when both teams started the series with the same hate their fans felt torwards each other. Bodies were flying around and there were very little scoring chances in the first period. The most notable was a rebound Hasek gave up on a Morenz wrister. When Ovechkin crashed the crease to get the puck , he had first had some words with Hasek until Chara came in to the Russian a little face-wash. The referees immidietly went in to prevent a fight. They were sucessful but everyone knew that there was no peace between this teams.
Besides the high tempers the game got way better in period two. Hasek made several strong saves as well as his counterpart Worsley. Doug Gilmour broke the ice with a tip-in on a shot by Howe. Morenz tied the game minutes later the second period found and an end with the score tied . Le Canadiens came out flying in the third and scored two quick goals. The Rockets down by 2 started throwing pucks at Hasek's net from every possible angle but with very limited sucess. With Worsley out Pavel Bure scored the empty-net but his celebration considered offending by Rick MacLeish. He gave the Russian Rocket a friendly push into the boards. After the cheap shot (or rightfull action for Rocket fans) Marcotte and Sanderson came in to pummel MacLeish. Neither coach let their players off the bench so the situation was "under control". MacLeish was helped into the locker room with his face bloodied up while Marcotte left the Forum under huge applaus.

Canadiens win game 1 with 4-1 and lead the series 1-0

Boxscore
1st period
scoreless
2nd period
11:35 - Doug Gilmour 1 (Howe)
14:24 - Howie Morenz 1 (Geoffrion,Thompson)
3rd period
3:44 - Bryan Trottier 1 (Howe,Chara) - PP
5:17 - Don Marcotte 1 (Westfall)
19:02 - Pavel Bure 1 (unassisted) - EN
 
Last edited:

Jungosi

Registered User
Jan 14, 2007
881
4
Rendsburg / Germany
The National Hockey League will not .....
... tolerate such behaviour as it was shown by the players Donald Michel Marcotte and Rick George MacLeish in first game of the playoff-series between the Canadiens and le Rocket. Both players will be suspended for the second game of the series and fined 5000$. - NHL Commissioner John Ziegler.

With both aggressors out the NHL hoped to cool down the series a bit but they were wrong again. The second game began the same way the first one ended. Violent. Thomson and suprisingly Vasiliev sqaured off with just a few moment into the game. The Russian recieved a major beating by Thomson. The result of the fight was also a hindsight to the result on the scoresheet. Pushed up by the fight and angry about the way they lost game 1 , Le Rocket started an offensive onslaught. Hasek held his own but was unable to stop Morenz on breakaway. Later in the first , Thomson scored on a powerplay. Tikkanen was able to cut the lead in half but Ovechkin soon made it a two goal lead again. Fighting for a tie Mark Howe got a goal but Geoffrion awnsered back with two more.

Le Rocket wins game 2 with 5-2 and ties the series at 1

Boxscore
1st period
14:51 - Howie Morenz 2 (Savard)
18:47 - Jimmy Thomson 1 (Morenz,Geoffrion) - PP
2nd period
10:13 - Esa Tikkanen 1 (Gilmour,Mosienko)
11:49 - Alexander Ovechkin (Morenz,Savard)
3rd period
4:46 - Mark Howe 1 (Chara,Trottier) - PP
8:15 - Bernie Geoffrion 1 (Morenz)
14:13 - Bernie Geoffrion 2 (Sloan)
 

Jungosi

Registered User
Jan 14, 2007
881
4
Rendsburg / Germany
They shook us all night long

The fans knew that this series would take long but I doubt that they had expected a single game to be as long as the third game.

Things started suprisingly slow on Rocket territory and the first period registered a total of 9 shots on goal. The second period also wasn't exactly a scoring-fest. Hasek made a nice save on Jackson who was ready to shot in a rebound. The Dominater stoned Busher with his unique roll-save. This happened late in the second period. Using the momentum created by the save the Canadiens scored early in the third. Le Rocket were struggling for a tie and it was again Jackson to get quality chance. Joe Primeau made a great pass right through the legs of Chara. The pass found Jackson's stick and he scored on the one-timer. The game slowed down again. Moments before the final buzzer , Worsley showed his worth with a save on Bure after a give-away by Stanowski. With no more scoring in regulation the game went to overtime.

Le Rocket had a few good chances early in the first period of overtime but did not convert. The Dominator kept his door shut but recieved little help from his offense. The Canadiens looked harmless and their best chance in the second period would come on a harmless play by Mark Howe. Howe dumped in the puck and went off the ice for a change but the puck made very weird bounce off Vasko's skate. With the puck right in the slot , Smith had a good chance to end the game but Worsley kept his cage clear.

With very little action in the third period the game went to the fourth overtime. Both teams were exhausted and there were more and more mistakes. Pavel Bure finally ended the game exploiting on of the mistakes. Worsley went out to play the puck but paniced when Bure came flying at him. Bure turned the puck over and passed it to a completely free Sid Smith. Smith did not hesitate and ended a very , very long game.

The Canadiens win game 3 with 2-1(OT) and lead the series 2-1

Boxscore
1st period
scoreless
2nd period
scoreless
3rd period
4:45 - Dick Irvin Sr. 1 (Vasiliev)
14:54 - Busher Jackson 1 (Primeau,Vasko)
1st period of overtime
scoreless
2nd period of overtime
scoreless
3rd period of overtime
scoreless
4th period of overtime
10:51 - Sid Smith 1 (Bure)
 

Jungosi

Registered User
Jan 14, 2007
881
4
Rendsburg / Germany
Sabbath bloody Sabbath

I'm sure this game will go down in history on par with Good Friday massacre pared with the infamous Richards riots.

It was friday night in Montreal with an enourmous amount of tension in the air. You could've cut it with a knife , it was that thick. Just 20 seconds into the game MacLeish decided that it is time to teach Marcotte a lesson. More a wrestling match than a fight it was soon broken up. It did not take long to start the scoring either. Bryan Trottier converted a powerplay chance to give his team the lead. The next 30 minutes were rather unspectecular but then around 35 minutes two minor scrums ensued and Mosienko and Vasko went at it. Mosieko got the better of the fight end it looked like the last few minutes would go by in peace. There was no peace. When the buzzer sounded both teams went head-first into a full-scale brawl. No one was sure how it started but when the dust cleared Red Sullivan was lying motionless on the ice apparently sucker-punched by Derek Sanderson. The referees were seemingly overstrained by the situation because when the teams were leaving their locker rooms ready to start the third period , Vasko and Tkachuk immidietly went after Sanderson as soon as he went on the ice. Another full scale-brawl broke out , everyone against everyone. Sanderson turteld for his life. The other main event of the brawl was Chara and Ovechkin going toe-to-toe. The huge Chara won narrowly and soon after the heat went down and they continued with hockey. 2 minutes in Bure scored the 2-0 for his team. Tod Sloan awnsered with two goals for the Rocket. MacLeish, Duff and Jackson added 3 more goals so that Mosienko's goal didn't have much impact on the finals result.

After the game several unhappy Habs fans decided to burn some cars in their anger. There were several fights with the police around the city and a lot of people were arrested. The hostile mood had reached it's boiling point. The riots went on almost the whole night until the police got them under control.

Le Rocket wins the game 5-3 and ties the series at 2

Boxscore
1st period
5:12 - Bryan Trottier 2 (Howe,Smith)
2nd period
scoreless
3rd period
2:02 - Pavel Bure 3 (unassisted)
6:23 - Tod Sloan 1 (Primeau,Toppazzini)
9:11 - Tod Sloan 2 (Morenz)
12:14 - Rick MacLeish 1 (Primeau)
13:27 - Dick Duff 1 (MacLeish)
14:28 - Busher Jackson 2 (Primeau,Sloan)
16:51 - Mosienko 1 (Howe,Tikkanen)
 

raleh

Registered User
Oct 17, 2005
1,764
9
Dartmouth, NS
Sabbath bloody Sabbath

I'm sure this game will go down in history on par with Good Friday massacre pared with the infamous Richards riots.

It was friday night in Montreal with an enourmous amount of tension in the air. You could've cut it with a knife , it was that thick. Just 20 seconds into the game MacLeish decided that it is time to teach Marcotte a lesson. More a wrestling match than a fight it was soon broken up. It did not take long to start the scoring either. Bryan Trottier converted a powerplay chance to give his team the lead. The next 30 minutes were rather unspectecular but then around 35 minutes two minor scrums ensued and Mosienko and Vasko went at it. Mosieko got the better of the fight end it looked like the last few minutes would go by in peace. There was no peace. When the buzzer sounded both teams went head-first into a full-scale brawl. No one was sure how it started but when the dust cleared Red Sullivan was lying motionless on the ice apparently sucker-punched by Derek Sanderson. The referees were seemingly overstrained by the situation because when the teams were leaving their locker rooms ready to start the third period , Vasko and Tkachuk immidietly went after Sanderson as soon as he went on the ice. Another full scale-brawl broke out , everyone against everyone. Sanderson turteld for his life. The other main event of the brawl was Chara and Ovechkin going toe-to-toe. The huge Chara won narrowly and soon after the heat went down and they continued with hockey. 2 minutes in Bure scored the 2-0 for his team. Tod Sloan awnsered with two goals for the Rocket. MacLeish, Duff and Jackson added 3 more goals so that Mosienko's goal didn't have much impact on the finals result.

After the game several unhappy Habs fans decided to burn some cars in their anger. There were several fights with the police around the city and a lot of people were arrested. The hostile mood had reached it's boiling point. The riots went on almost the whole night until the police got them under control.

Le Rocket wins the game 5-3 and ties the series at 2

Boxscore
1st period
5:12 - Bryan Trottier 2 (Howe,Smith)
2nd period
scoreless
3rd period
2:02 - Pavel Bure 3 (unassisted)
6:23 - Tod Sloan 1 (Primeau,Toppazzini)
9:11 - Tod Sloan 2 (Morenz)
12:14 - Rick MacLeish 1 (Primeau)
13:27 - Dick Duff 1 (MacLeish)
14:28 - Busher Jackson 2 (Primeau,Sloan)
16:51 - Mosienko 1 (Howe,Tikkanen)

Those weren't Habs fans. That was Murphy and his Maroon cronies. That's just what they do on Friday nights.
 

Jungosi

Registered User
Jan 14, 2007
881
4
Rendsburg / Germany
There is still some hockey to be played

After the riots of game 4 , the NHL Board of Gouvenours discussed if the serious should be broken up or postponed. They decided that they won't bring a series to a premature end. The Canadiens were heavily fined and the security measures were massively improved. Derek Sanderson and Keith Tkachuk both recieved one-game suspensions for their actions in game 4.

The itself started very fast with Le Rocket getting into penalty trouble very early. With both Savard and Morenz in the box , Esa Tikkanen scored on the powerplay. Morenz awnsered the bell soon when he backhanded in a nice feed by Ovechkin. Both teams had several scoring chances but strong defense play and goaltending held the result tied. Nearing the end of the second period , Geoffrion and Morenz got a two-on-one after a takeaway. Morenz blew past the lone man back Chara and passed it Boom Boom. Hasek got some of the shot but not enough and the puck went in. The Canadiens pressed hard for a goal but were stopped by exellent team defense by the Rocket. Late in the third period Moose Vasko cleared the puck and Jackson got it around the red line. With no one infront of him , he skated onto Hasek and wristed the puck an inch below the crossbar and in.

Le Rocket wins the game 3-1 and leads the series 3-2

Boxscore
1st period
1:41 - Esa Tikkanen 2 (Gilmour,Chara) - PP
7:45 - Howie Morenz 4 (Ovechkin,Jackson)
2nd period
14:59 - Bernie Geoffrion 3 (Morenz)
3rd period
17:36 - Busher Jackson 3 (Vasko)
 

Jungosi

Registered User
Jan 14, 2007
881
4
Rendsburg / Germany
Chlapce ob Pardubice and a killer

You rarely see a more dominating performance by a goalie then the one The Dominator himself delivered when his team faced elimination in game 6.

Facing 15 shots in the first period alone the boy from Parduvice did not even show a sign of weakness. His most remarkable action was of save on Morenz who had wide-open net but was denied when Hasek somehow got his right hand there in time. Midway through the second period the Canadiens were finally able to get out of their zone and biuld up some pressure. Worsley who had very little to do until that moment appeared not ready for the and surrended two quick goals by Gilmour. With the buzzer sounding to end the second period a scrum ensued around the half boards in Canadiens territory. Gilmour grabbed Sloan and both decided to drop 'em. Sloan recieved a major beating and after the fight teammate Trottier rightfully said : "Doug is a killer!"
Unable to come back Le Rocket gave up on the game and the Canadiens scored two more goals to settle the final score of 4-0. The series would go back to the Forum.

The Canadiens win the game 4-0 and tie the series at 3

Boxscore
1st period
scoreless
2nd period
13:23 - Doug Gilmour 2 (Mosienko,Vasiliev)
14:57 - Doug Gilmour 3 (Howe)
3rd period
6:17 - Bryan Trottier 3 (Smith,Vasiliev)
8:45 - Zdeno Chara 1 (Trottier,Gilmour) - PP
 

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