(Assumptions aside) Grzelcyk Vs. Clifton might surprise you.

[BRUINS since 1995]

Depends on how they use the group.

Look at TB. They don't roll out some double-threat rock solid top pair as their top pairing all game long. Jan Ruuta who is often out there with Hedman, is averaging just 14 mins in this year's playoffs.

Their 3 LD (Hedman, McDonagh, Sergachev) average more ice-time in the playoffs than their 3 RD (Cernak, Ruuta, and Savard). They coughed up a 1st round pick so David Savard could play under 15 mins. per game.

In 2020 they often rolled 7 D and everyone played with Hedman at times.

Do I want Gryz out there with C-Mac in the final minutes defending a lead? No, but with a well-rounded group they don't need to.

Can you do what some teams did and lean heavily on two pairs while ignoring your 3rd pair with Gryz as part of the top 4? Probably not because of Gryz's limitations in some situations.

But if you insulate your current D-men by adding better and more complimentary players, they can use Gryz fairly similar to last year (although him on PP 1 needs to stop, that's spot is C-Mac's now or at least it should be). That's what TB has done.

Meanwhile, that Big 4 in Montreal looks just about toast. Getting through 4 rounds leaning that heavily on 4 guys is challenging. The wear and tear takes it's toll whether it be small or large D-men. Fatigue is fatigue, doesn't matter the height or weight. Where the difference lies is the amount of energy the smaller D-man has to exert to win those net-front battles and battles in the corner. You would be amazed at how much energy and exertion even a quick corner battle takes out of you.

This comes down to Sweeney's ability to add to the group to support the current groups weaknesses. And the coaching staffs ability to think outside the box a bit and be creative with their utilization.

MG is a better Marc-André Bergeron type of player. IMO hm playing top 4 in the PO won't be sustainable for him. Let alone this year, I think his performance speaks very well in the last games. . As for fatigue, being big, strong sure help to resist PO games. Bruins D core was fatigue, overwhelm and physically abuse after one round. That said, front net battle and D zone battle especially without the puck is a challenge I did not see him respond well. MG was sheltered but when exposed by D injuries, we saw what happen. No problem with a 5'9'' D, but MG is a 3 rd pairing and PP specialist. I like MG, but if I'm a GM, I don't want him on my top 4 going in the PO.

 

[BRUINS since 1995]

To me most defensive groups are more about the sum of their parts than the quality of the individual players. I think you'll find the vast majority of Cup teams have had one outright star on D - most recently Hedman, Pietrangelo and Carlson. But beyond that it's more about getting the right mix. And there is absolutely room for a Gryz in a Cup-winning 6, and it could be on the 2nd pair, as long as there's enough capable bigger bodies around him. If you look at Tampa, they're different types of players, but surely Gryz offers you more overall than Jan Rutta, who's been getting time with Hedman. Putting aside the fact that Rutta and Matt play different sides, if you put Gryz in that team in Jan's place, Tampa's still winning Cups.

Gryz's problem on the Bruins is he's simply being asked to do too much. You need a high quality puck mover on your team, and Gryz is definitely that. He's capable enough in his own end, but he needs some sheltering the way Krug used to be, and he needs a strong partner who knows when and how to bail him out, can play that solid shutdown role, and doesn't mind occasionally being the lone guy sitting back in the neutral zone. That's not McAvoy, who's too good to be a complimentary, shutdown player, and doesn't play in that fashion. It should have been Carlo, and that was the original plan this year. Carlo and Krug worked pretty well. Not perfect, but if you look at their run in the 2019 playoffs it was more than solid for the most part. But for whatever reason Gryz and Carlo just haven't gelled. I think that's partly due to one or the other being injured for long stretches, but even so it always seemed like Brandon struggled to read and adapt to the way Matt played. And then of course we lost Carlo in the end again anyway.

So with Lauzon not doing well enough to trust him with top pair minutes, as was always likely to be the case, and Reilly and Zboril not being good enough, 1LD fell mostly to Gryz almost by default. And that was just too much for him. Adding Reilly helped to a point in giving the Bs another handy transition player, but it doesn't change the fact that Sweeney tried to cheat on D and didn't get away with it. Once he failed to add a genuine top 4 LD before the deadline, I knew the Bruins were doomed, no matter what they did up front. Our D group simply wasn't strong enough, both in diversity and quality of talent and in its literal strength and size, and that's no more Gryz's fault than any of the other players.

Matt Grzelcyk is a good hockey player. His regular season numbers are elite, but his playoffs are not, and that's what makes him good rather than great, because he simply lacks the ability to consistently cut through with the reduced time and space that you get in the postseason, and he gets pushed around and worn down a little too often. To me he's still worth his salary. Of course Clifton is a lot cheaper and he offers great value for his cap hit. He's more reliable and durable in his own end than Gryz in playoff games, but he's more prone to making poor decisions than Gryz. And most importantly he doesn't have Matt's ability in skating with and moving the puck. Not even close. And much as I like Cliffy, that's the reason why for me it's a no brainer that you protect Gryz over Clifton - the Bruins have enough trouble moving the puck in transition as it is. Removing Gryz, who's talent in that regard is well above average, would be hugely detrimental. They can't replace it internally, nor get anyone on free agency who offers comparable ability for under $4 mil p.a. So IMO they have to retain Matt, over both Cliffy and Lauzon.

Good post. I agree on most especially bold part. The ¨but he's more prone to making poor decision that Gryz¨is not that true PO time imo. One of the problem with transition is when your stuck in D zone being physically abuse in the PO, tough to think transition and Offence. Maybe puck and positioning battle lost and physically being abuse has to do with it! MG in top 4 in the PO if not sheltered by a really good D partner is not going to work imo. Best of 7, 4 times to SC, without the ice advantage will expose him . Cassidy won't have the last change on at least 4 games (and going against Trotz, might be outcoached - which means might be expose 7 games) and what happened will happen again! MG is a good player for sure but not good enough PO time for him to be a top 4 by himself.

 

[BRUINS since 1995]

Ahcan(incredibly unproven) and then who?

I feel the complete opposite. We have a plethora of defenders that can play bottom pair minutes like Clifton. Clifton, Zboril, Lauzon, Vaak, Moore, along with anyone they pick up for depth like Kampfer and Tinordi for example, but no one who can play up in the top 4 like Gryz has proven.

None of the D group indicated in your post can bring the physicality of Lauzon and Clifton. I think if you want to move those guys you need to bring what you will get rid off.

 

[member 96824]

None of the D group indicated in your post can bring the physicality of Lauzon and Clifton. I think if you want to move those guys you need to bring what you will get rid off.

Physical bottom pair D are a dime a dozen though. Easily addressable in FA or even on waivers as we saw this year.

But I’m not talking the ins and outs of each player’s scouting report, I’m talking role. None of those guys have shown they can sustainably play up in the lineup for a stretch of time. Gryz is a top 4 defender. We aren’t loaded with top 4 left handed defenders as the original poster implied. It’s so much so the opposite that the GM identified it as the #1 need this offseason publicly.

 

[BRUINS since 1995]

Physical bottom pair D are a dime a dozen though. Easily addressable in FA or even on waivers as we saw this year.

But I’m not talking the ins and outs of each player’s scouting report, I’m talking role. None of those guys have shown they can sustainably play up in the lineup for a stretch of time. Gryz is a top 4 defender. We aren’t loaded with top 4 left handed defenders as the original poster implied. It’s so much so the opposite that the GM identified it as the #1 need this offseason publicly.

fair on the bold part. MG imo is nowhere close to a top 4 it in PO. But on that we can certainly disagree.

 

[mjhfb]

Did I miss the point somewhere that they should not even be in competition?
Grz is a puck moving left shot LD and Clifton is a physical right shot RD?

 

[UncleRico]

Never ceases to amaze me that an adult could read a legit argument then have to dumb it down to their own level so that they can mock it.

Yes, Gryz is more valuable than Clifton in a 1-1 vacuum.

I'm arguing that Gryz is less valuable than Clifton + 2,800,000 in cap space to go towards another player/roster hole.

Obviously this is all dependant on Sweeney spending the gained cap space intelligently and advantageously....

gryz at his contract is still much more valuable than clifton at his contract and it’s not even close. If it weren’t for injuring clifton wouldn’t even have been playing. He’s not even a top 6 defender on a contending team.

Gryz is a #4 defender on a team and he’s getting paid a #4 defender type money unfortunately he was forced into a top pairing role for the majority of the season.

You honestly believe that in a straight up trade that clifton is worth more than gryz? Gryz actually has a market around the league. No one in the league would be seeking out clifton. You can find 50 different cliftons around the league

 

[DarrenBanks56]

gryz at his contract is still much more valuable than clifton at his contract and it’s not even close. If it weren’t for injuring clifton wouldn’t even have been playing. He’s not even a top 6 defender on a contending team.

Gryz is a #4 defender on a team and he’s getting paid a #4 defender type money unfortunately he was forced into a top pairing role for the majority of the season.

You honestly believe that in a straight up trade that clifton is worth more than gryz? Gryz actually has a market around the league. No one in the league would be seeking out clifton. You can find 50 different cliftons around the league

honestly in the playoffs gryz should be getting #6 dman minutes. He is just too small for big monutes in the playoffs. we have seen it 3 years in a row now.
He reminds me of that small dman tampa had when we beat them in 2011. Forgot his name. think he was number 47?

 

[CLIFFY HOCKEY]

Lets not forget Gryz had a bad back this year as well, could be chronic? Who knows, but I would keep Cliffy either way.

 

[UncleRico]

honestly in the playoffs gryz should be getting #6 dman minutes. He is just too small for big monutes in the playoffs. we have seen it 3 years in a row now.
He reminds me of that small dman tampa had when we beat them in 2011. Forgot his name. think he was number 47?

I literally don’t care if gryz is on the team next year or not. I’m just saying to imply that clifton has more value than gryz is insane. If the bruins went to trade either player Gryz would get you a much better return than clifton.

 

[LSCII]

The only assumption I can draw from this thread is that the OP has a bias against Gryz. Not a big deal either, as I get he's got flaws and isn't perfect. I do think he has value and has played in more high leverage situations than Cliffy, whom I really like. I'm just not sure Clifton is ready to have such a big jump in minutes and situationally at this point.

 

[BruinsFanSince94]

honestly in the playoffs gryz should be getting #6 dman minutes. He is just too small for big monutes in the playoffs. we have seen it 3 years in a row now.
He reminds me of that small dman tampa had when we beat them in 2011. Forgot his name. think he was number 47?

Marc-Andre Bergeron. They’re nothing alike besides being similar in height.

So lazy to say players are alike because of size.

 

[Tonysil]

Did I miss the point somewhere that they should not even be in competition?
Grz is a puck moving left shot LD and Clifton is a physical right shot RD?

Listen, we don't need this kind of logic in here.

 

[RussellmaniaKW]

The only assumption I can draw from this thread is that the OP has a bias against Gryz. Not a big deal either, as I get he's got flaws and isn't perfect. I do think he has value and has played in more high leverage situations than Cliffy, whom I really like. I'm just not sure Clifton is ready to have such a big jump in minutes and situationally at this point.

I think part of the argument is that you wouldn't necessarily give Clifton those extra minutes, but rather use the cap savings to replace Gryz with someone more suited to the role and let Clifton keep being effective as a 3rd pair guy.

I basically agree with that premise, but don't necessarily agree with letting Gryz get taken by Seattle to get there. I'd much prefer to get something in return for Gryz.

Now, with Leach being over there now I would definitely be in talks with Seattle to see which player they really want from us and I'd be optimistic that they want one of our D. If they really wanted Gryz, maybe you can get them to send us a pick in exchange for leaving him exposed. That way we get the cap savings AND an asset in return.

 

[Colt.45Orr]

gryz at his contract is still much more valuable than clifton at his contract and it’s not even close. If it weren’t for injuring clifton wouldn’t even have been playing. He’s not even a top 6 defender on a contending team.

Gryz is a #4 defender on a team and he’s getting paid a #4 defender type money unfortunately he was forced into a top pairing role for the majority of the season.

You honestly believe that in a straight up trade that clifton is worth more than gryz? Gryz actually has a market around the league. No one in the league would be seeking out clifton. You can find 50 different cliftons around the league

Clifton was top 6 mins for a game 7 SCF team, so to say he isn't top 6 on a contender is silly.

You always avoid my point though: isn't the 2.8m cap hit difference more than the difference in value between the two players o. The 2.8m as the main chunk to get you Ryan Suter for 2 years?

Again, from a playoff production standpoint, Clifton is as effective as Gryzin the playoffs. C GRYZ'S number one attribute is putting up points as he is weak Link in other areas of the game

 

[Colt.45Orr]

Sorry, phone is glitching out and screen is mainly black.

 

[UncleRico]

Clifton was top 6 mins for a game 7 SCF team, so to say he isn't top 6 on a contender is silly.

You always avoid my point though: isn't the 2.8m cap hit difference more than the difference in value between the two players o. The 2.8m as the main chunk to get you Ryan Suter for 2 years?

Again, from a playoff production standpoint, Clifton is as effective as Gryzin the playoffs. C GRYZ'S number one attribute is putting up points as he is weak Link in other areas of the game

He was only playing because other people were injured. If he was healthy he wouldn’t even have been in the lineup. Same as this year. And no clifton playing third pairing minutes and being sent out against opposing teams third and fourth lines isn’t comparable to Gryz play top pairing minutes being deployed against opposing teams top two lines for the the vast majority of games.

Also Ryan Suter is 36 and washed. No way should they give Suter a multiyear deal to play his age 37 and 38 season at $2.8+ per season.

 

[LouJersey]

This board never ceases to amaze me sometimes. People really have the sentiment that clifton should be protected over gryz and Frederic should be protected over Ritchie and debrusk lol

Gryz gets paid a lot for a guy who shouldn't play top four in the play-offs. I love him as a 3rd pair, and rotate in with McAvoy during the regular season and when you're behind.

Seattle may not be interested in taking on three year contracts.

As for Ritchie and DeBrusk, meh. Guessing they will overpay Ritchie and deal Jake for whatever.

 

[LouJersey]

Did I miss the point somewhere that they should not even be in competition?
Grz is a puck moving left shot LD and Clifton is a physical right shot RD?

I think ideally both are 3rd pairing guys, but they could not be paired together so you would prob have to make a choice. I would protect Gryz.

 

[UncleRico]

Gryz gets paid a lot for a guy who shouldn't play top four in the play-offs. I love him as a 3rd pair, and rotate in with McAvoy during the regular season and when you're behind.

Seattle may not be interested in taking on three year contracts.

As for Ritchie and DeBrusk, meh. Guessing they will overpay Ritchie and deal Jake for whatever.

Going into this season he was the 102nd top paid defensive player which aligns with a 4th defender on a team. Unfortunately for him he was put in a top pairing role. However is is paid accordingly for what he is. Not sure what he will be next year after everyone is signed in free agency, but he was appropriately paid this year.

 

[bb_fan]

Gryz should go.