Confirmed with Link: "As The Flyers Turn" - Front Office Deck Chairs Discussion Thread (Camillo Out/Sharp In/LeClair In)

[renberg]

Culture does come with a club when management has a plan for the type of play that it wants to see on the ice. The “Flyers Way” of the past was built on team concept. They played for the win not the personal stats. The goal scored was great but so was the assist leading to the goal. Clarke passed up shots when Barber, Leach or whoever was in a better place to score. Lindros scored his share but also set up Leclair, Renberg and others. What mattered was the goal for the Flyers. This attitude has been absent here for a while; particularly since Giroux was dealt. There’s been too much egotism on the ice. The play of Hayes, Provorov and TDA are symptomatic of this.
Tortorella was hired to sort some of this out. After a season of him we can see the obvious as to who is not a fit as a team player. One of them is already gone. Others are soon to follow. Any club can lose but losing with players that are dogs on and off of the ice is difficult to tolerate. It’s time to rebuild- with players who work together as teammate. Ones who check their egos at the door and play for the team to win. Guys who figure that a good night is a W and a bad night in an L no matter what the stats sheet says.

 

[Starat327]

This is a good point.

Louisiana is probably the drunkest state I've ever been to fwiw.

I don't blame em. You can't fall asleep with swampass, so you just have to blackout.

 

[TheGreenTBer]

I don't blame em. You can't fall asleep with swampass, so you just have to blackout.

This is an excellent point.

 

[Kelmitchell2]

They really think that's the problem. Pay no mind to the fact that they have absolutely no idea how to build a team.

I loved John LeClair, probably my 2nd favorite all time flyer, but what exactly did the culture win them? Besides beating up Ottawa

 

[Rebels57]

On the "culture" topic, though:

It's something that forms organically. You don't go looking to draft CULTURE or hire some hackneyed old Masshole coach under the impression that he's the CULTURE GURU who is going to build it for you. Hell, the whole Vigneault/Kevin Hayes/Kevin's friends experiment was an effort to instill a culture and all it did was alienate the existing leadership and wreck the team. Fun!

Leaders emerge in unexpected ways. Friendships and bonds are born from proximity and adversity and success. There's no playbook for that, and anyone trying to sell you one is a huckster.

If anything, culture is something you can curate, not construct or install. You draft the best hockey players you can. You keep some solid people in place to guide the atmosphere. If someone is clashing with the rest of the room, you stamp it down or pluck them out.

Using some nebulous concept of "culture" as a guiding force for hockey ops is stupid. You don't create a "winning culture" without winning. You don't win without talent. You can control the influx of talent. You can't predict how personalities will change and co-exist over time.

They're at square 0. Obsessing over culture right now is like rattling on about feng shui before you've even sourced the timber from which you'll build the house.

Please Tweet this at all of the usual idiots on that cursed platform.

 

[Rich Nixon]

Please Tweet this at all of the usual idiots on that cursed platform.

Again, I need to wait 4 days and 18 more hours to do that, on account of my suspension.

 

[PDX Flyer]

This is a good point.

Louisiana is probably the drunkest state I've ever been to fwiw.

Come to Portland. The meth head driving a stolen car creates the ultimate driving experience

 

[1865]

There was an element of us joking about "former Flyer front office" attitudes but this is getting a little silly. Who else? Scotty Hartnell for skating coach? Forsberg for fitness coach? Chuck Fletcher for GM?

Fletcher on the Flyers failure:

"I saw it coming a little bit at the end, Elliotte. Obviously, we hadn't had a lot of success the last two season. There was a lot of noise, and dissatisfaction in the marketplace. I had a lot of conversations with my boss, so I was certainly aware that, you know, things could happen. So you're aware of it."

You only saw it coming at the end Chuck? No wonder you're the worst negotiator in the world, everyone runs rings around you before you know they're in the room.

 

[BernieParent]

You can't spell culture without 'cult'.

But seriously, as @Magua said, asking the FO to explain what they mean by culture is akin to the blind men describing an elephant. Yes, good teams should have each other's backs, stick up for each other, play as hard in their own zone as in the offensive zone, but the Flyers neither created nor defined this. We can't even say that the hallowed BSBs played an honest game; they played dirty hockey, they cheapshotted opponents, and they dove, just like other clubs. And I say this as someone who became a fan of this organization.

I like some of the core elements of Tortorella's approach. Did we not appreciate him taking Hayes to task for lacklustre play? But Tortorella is a cartoon-character type for hockey culture. A line-up can't be the Borg; i.e., a homogeneous entity of 200-foot shot-blockers grinding out 2-1 wins 82 games a season. And these head games, like sitting a player in his home town, have a short shelf life.

Yes, give me a line-up of players who keep being pushed 12 months a year to be at top shape and to be constantly improving their skills, who are focused on wins instead of personal stats (nodding to you, @deadhead), who are responsible defensively in all 3 zones, who don't take stupid penalties because they can't control themselves but will stick up for each other when the other team is cheapshotting them, and who are relentless in getting and keeping the puck. But let me also watch offensive creativity and a smattering of highlight-reel individual efforts as part of a well-rounded modern NHL lineup.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Culture does come with a club when management has a plan for the type of play that it wants to see on the ice. The “Flyers Way” of the past was built on team concept. They played for the win not the personal stats. The goal scored was great but so was the assist leading to the goal. Clarke passed up shots when Barber, Leach or whoever was in a better place to score. Lindros scored his share but also set up Leclair, Renberg and others. What mattered was the goal for the Flyers. This attitude has been absent here for a while; particularly since Giroux was dealt. There’s been too much egotism on the ice. The play of Hayes, Provorov and TDA are symptomatic of this.
Tortorella was hired to sort some of this out. After a season of him we can see the obvious as to who is not a fit as a team player. One of them is already gone. Others are soon to follow. Any club can lose but losing with players that are dogs on and off of the ice is difficult to tolerate. It’s time to rebuild- with players who work together as teammate. Ones who check their egos at the door and play for the team to win. Guys who figure that a good night is a W and a bad night in an L no matter what the stats sheet says.

Flyers management despises playmakers and creativity and has been chasing mindless turrets, so this is the "culture" they've wanted.

 

[BernieParent]

Flyers management despises playmakers and creativity and has been chasing mindless turrets, so this is the "culture" they've wanted.

Which is ironic because I thought unselfish play would be a strong component of the desired culture.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Yeah, sure. The market is huge for 33 year old face punchers.

Nicolas Deslauriers Buyout Results - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

Nicolas Deslauriers buyout results and details including cost calculations, savings and final cap hit

www.capfriendly.com

SEASON	INITIAL BASE SALARY	INITIAL CAP HIT	SIGNING BONUS	BUYOUT COST	POST-BUYOUT EARNINGS	SAVINGS	CAP HIT ( PHI)
2024-25	$1,500,000	$1,750,000	$0	$500,000	$500,000	$1,000,000	$750,000
2025-26	$1,500,000	$1,750,000	$0	$500,000	$500,000	$1,000,000	$750,000
2026-27	$0	$0	$0	$500,000	$500,000	-$500,000	$500,000
2027-28	$0	$0	$0	$500,000	$500,000	-$500,000	$500,000
TOTAL	$3,000,000	$3,500,000	$0	$2,000,000	$2,000,000	$1,000,000	$2,500,000

better off waiving him

 

[deadhead]

You can't spell culture without 'cult'.

But seriously, as @Magua said, asking the FO to explain what they mean by culture is akin to the blind men describing an elephant. Yes, good teams should have each other's backs, stick up for each other, play as hard in their own zone as in the offensive zone, but the Flyers neither created nor defined this. We can't even say that the hallowed BSBs played an honest game; they played dirty hockey, they cheapshotted opponents, and they dove, just like other clubs. And I say this as someone who became a fan of this organization.

I like some of the core elements of Tortorella's approach. Did we not appreciate him taking Hayes to task for lacklustre play? But Tortorella is a cartoon-character type for hockey culture. A line-up can't be the Borg; i.e., a homogeneous entity of 200-foot shot-blockers grinding out 2-1 wins 82 games a season. And these head games, like sitting a player in his home town, have a short shelf life.

Yes, give me a line-up of players who keep being pushed 12 months a year to be at top shape and to be constantly improving their skills, who are focused on wins instead of personal stats (nodding to you, @deadhead), who are responsible defensively in all 3 zones, who don't take stupid penalties because they can't control themselves but will stick up for each other when the other team is cheapshotting them, and who are relentless in getting and keeping the puck. But let me also watch offensive creativity and a smattering of highlight-reel individual efforts as part of a well-rounded modern NHL lineup.

I think this "smothering creativity is a myth."
First you have to have offensively talented players.
Come back in two years when the Flyers add some talent and the kids they are currently playing grow up.

If they trade TK, Laughton and Hayes, with JVR gone, they're going to struggle to score goals unless Couts and Atkinson are 100%, and Foerster and Brink are the real thing, because there aren't going to be many other sources of offense other than Frost, Farabee and Tippett. And that will have nothing to do with the scheme.

Vegas was 14th in GF, Carolina 15th. Why aren't people whining about Brind"Amour and Cassidy stifling offense?
Because they score enough to win games.

CBJ
2016-17: 6th in GF
2017-18: 16th in GF (after adding Panarin)
2018-19: 12th in GF
2019-20: 28th (after Panarin, Duchene, Duclair, Dzingel left, Atkinson missed half the season)
Funny how scoring falls off when you don't have a 1st line. Like the Flyers last season!

A Torts team is never going to lead the league in scoring, but with the right talent can be a top ten goal scoring team.
The mistake in CBJ was rushing the process, I think that's something Torts and Briere discussed, to keep building the "right way," bringing in young talent and develop it and don't try to rush things with high priced free agents and asset bleeding trades.

 

[Audible Velvet]

You can't spell culture without 'cult'.

But seriously, as @Magua said, asking the FO to explain what they mean by culture is akin to the blind men describing an elephant. Yes, good teams should have each other's backs, stick up for each other, play as hard in their own zone as in the offensive zone, but the Flyers neither created nor defined this. We can't even say that the hallowed BSBs played an honest game; they played dirty hockey, they cheapshotted opponents, and they dove, just like other clubs. And I say this as someone who became a fan of this organization.

I like some of the core elements of Tortorella's approach. Did we not appreciate him taking Hayes to task for lacklustre play? But Tortorella is a cartoon-character type for hockey culture. A line-up can't be the Borg; i.e., a homogeneous entity of 200-foot shot-blockers grinding out 2-1 wins 82 games a season. And these head games, like sitting a player in his home town, have a short shelf life.

Yes, give me a line-up of players who keep being pushed 12 months a year to be at top shape and to be constantly improving their skills, who are focused on wins instead of personal stats (nodding to you, @deadhead), who are responsible defensively in all 3 zones, who don't take stupid penalties because they can't control themselves but will stick up for each other when the other team is cheapshotting them, and who are relentless in getting and keeping the puck. But let me also watch offensive creativity and a smattering of highlight-reel individual efforts as part of a well-rounded modern NHL lineup.

Right on, Bern!

 

[blackjackmulligan]

I think this "smothering creativity is a myth."
First you have to have offensively talented players.
Come back in two years when the Flyers add some talent and the kids they are currently playing grow up.

If they trade TK, Laughton and Hayes, with JVR gone, they're going to struggle to score goals unless Couts and Atkinson are 100%, and Foerster and Brink are the real thing, because there aren't going to be many other sources of offense other than Frost, Farabee and Tippett. And that will have nothing to do with the scheme.

Vegas was 14th in GF, Carolina 15th. Why aren't people whining about Brind"Amour and Cassidy stifling offense?
Because they score enough to win games.

CBJ
2016-17: 6th in GF
2017-18: 16th in GF (after adding Panarin)
2018-19: 12th in GF
2019-20: 28th (after Panarin, Duchene, Duclair, Dzingel left, Atkinson missed half the season)
Funny how scoring falls off when you don't have a 1st line. Like the Flyers last season!

A Torts team is never going to lead the league in scoring, but with the right talent can be a top ten goal scoring team.
The mistake in CBJ was rushing the process, I think that's something Torts and Briere discussed, to keep building the "right way," bringing in young talent and develop it and don't try to rush things with high priced free agents and asset bleeding trades.

will torts still be here in in the 2025/2026 season?

they didnt rush anything.

 

[Chinatown88]

You can't spell culture without 'cult'.

But seriously, as @Magua said, asking the FO to explain what they mean by culture is akin to the blind men describing an elephant. Yes, good teams should have each other's backs, stick up for each other, play as hard in their own zone as in the offensive zone, but the Flyers neither created nor defined this. We can't even say that the hallowed BSBs played an honest game; they played dirty hockey, they cheapshotted opponents, and they dove, just like other clubs. And I say this as someone who became a fan of this organization.

I like some of the core elements of Tortorella's approach. Did we not appreciate him taking Hayes to task for lacklustre play? But Tortorella is a cartoon-character type for hockey culture. A line-up can't be the Borg; i.e., a homogeneous entity of 200-foot shot-blockers grinding out 2-1 wins 82 games a season. And these head games, like sitting a player in his home town, have a short shelf life.

Yes, give me a line-up of players who keep being pushed 12 months a year to be at top shape and to be constantly improving their skills, who are focused on wins instead of personal stats (nodding to you, @deadhead), who are responsible defensively in all 3 zones, who don't take stupid penalties because they can't control themselves but will stick up for each other when the other team is cheapshotting them, and who are relentless in getting and keeping the puck. But let me also watch offensive creativity and a smattering of highlight-reel individual efforts as part of a well-rounded modern NHL lineup.

"He's on fire!" - NBA Jam

 

[deadhead]

will torts still be here in in the 2025/2026 season?

they didnt rush anything.

I think Torts will play out his contract, whether he'll want to coach past then will be a mutual decision, at that point he may well want to retire to his farm, rescue dogs and be a senior advisor.

I've never got the feeling that Torts was "forced" on Briere, the two seem to have had come to the same conclusion last fall, that the team needed to be rebuilt "the right way." Torts is on board with a patient rebuild, with the focus on teaching and development, not winning now. Winning will be the byproduct of "trusting the process."

 

[blackjackmulligan]

I think Torts will play out his contract, whether he'll want to coach past then will be a mutual decision, at that point he may well want to retire to his farm, rescue dogs and be a senior advisor.

I've never got the feeling that Torts was "forced" on Briere, the two seem to have had come to the same conclusion last fall, that the team needed to be rebuilt "the right way." Torts is on board with a patient rebuild, with the focus on teaching and development, not winning now. Winning will be the byproduct of "trusting the process."

it is never a mutual decision. He is a coach. That is all he knows.

I would bet my left nut if Danny was allowed to bring in his own coach he would have.

Torts actions will show what he is on board with. Is he who you really want teaching and development, the on ice skills that is? Still baffles me they refuse to hire a PP coach.

 

[trostol]

AINTNOWAY ROTHFUSS FINALLY DID IT?

Kingkiller Chronicles have been on my TBR pile for ages.

Also waiting for the next book by Scott Lynch in the Gentleman Bastard series.

like the Flyers..5 years away from being 5 years away

 

[Beef Invictus]

I think this "smothering creativity is a myth."
First you have to have offensively talented players.
Come back in two years when the Flyers add some talent and the kids they are currently playing grow up.

If they trade TK, Laughton and Hayes, with JVR gone, they're going to struggle to score goals unless Couts and Atkinson are 100%, and Foerster and Brink are the real thing, because there aren't going to be many other sources of offense other than Frost, Farabee and Tippett. And that will have nothing to do with the scheme.

Vegas was 14th in GF, Carolina 15th. Why aren't people whining about Brind"Amour and Cassidy stifling offense?
Because they score enough to win games.

CBJ
2016-17: 6th in GF
2017-18: 16th in GF (after adding Panarin)
2018-19: 12th in GF
2019-20: 28th (after Panarin, Duchene, Duclair, Dzingel left, Atkinson missed half the season)
Funny how scoring falls off when you don't have a 1st line. Like the Flyers last season!

A Torts team is never going to lead the league in scoring, but with the right talent can be a top ten goal scoring team.
The mistake in CBJ was rushing the process, I think that's something Torts and Briere discussed, to keep building the "right way," bringing in young talent and develop it and don't try to rush things with high priced free agents and asset bleeding trades.

It's not a myth. That reality has been proven to you repeatedly.

They're going to struggle to score goals either way because Tortorella has them playing a style that restricts offensive opportunities. Tortorella has stated that he thinks this team needs 10-12 goal PK specialists, not offensive talent. That's where his head is at.

 

[swami24]

I would bet my left nut if Danny was allowed to bring in his own coach he would have.

Is team really worth betting a biscuit in? What would you win, a third?

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

AINTNOWAY ROTHFUSS FINALLY DID IT?

Kingkiller Chronicles have been on my TBR pile for ages.

Have you not started that series? It is legit terrible. Not just "not as good as people say," but actively bad. It's not quite Dan Brown, but it's Dan Brown adjacent. I'm not exaggerating.

 

[Chinatown88]

Have you not started that series? It is legit terrible. Not just "not as good as people say," but actively bad. It's not quite Dan Brown, but it's Dan Brown adjacent. I'm not exaggerating.

Cause you said it was terrible it's been on the TBR pile forever. Might never touch it at this point.

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

Cause you said it was terrible it's been on the TBR pile forever. Might never touch it at this point.

I'm about halfway through "The Shadow of What Was Lost."

 

[Chinatown88]

I'm about halfway through "The Shadow of What Was Lost."

I just started The Will of the Many but things. Looking to get back into it though.

Licanius is good.