Around the NHL — Episode XLXVI

[GCK]

Dorion consistently made a terrible mistake (I know captain obvious) when drafting. He would draft for his projected need 2-3 years out and always assumed his picks would hit.

Brown and White means we can move Z-Bad.

JBD and Thomson will replace Zub.

His decisions were made of blind optimism or massive ego but it’s terrible.

You draft BPA and that asset can either grow and push someone out or be used in a trade.

Idiot.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Dorion consistently made a terrible mistake (I know captain obvious) when drafting. He would draft for his projected need 2-3 years out and always assumed his picks would hit.

Brown and White means we can move Z-Bad.

JBD and Thomson will replace Zub.

His decisions were made of blind optimism or massive ego but it’s terrible.

You draft BPA and that asset can either grow and push someone out or be used in a trade.

Idiot.

Like Like Like Like

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Logan Brown and Collin White figured in.

In 2016, White was being heralded as Patrice Bergeron Junior and Brown was seen as that stud big man center.

So, it was a perfect storm. Zab wanted money, Eugene did not want to pay. Logan and Collin are in the hopper... It meant Mika is out.

Mika was due to have a 1 M jump in salary.. Up to 3.25 M in 2016-2017 ( a jump of 1.2 M).

It forced hands... Pierre D. was not the best at trading. Brassard was a Franco. In a market needing/wanting a Franco star. Guy Boucher was coming in. Probably influenced it. Boucher was a bit of a Svengali to Dorion in the first 1-2 years.

A perfect storm.

If the following list of transactions throughout his tenure weren't similarly bad, or if it still mattered, I might be willing to go down the rabbit hole a little more on this.

It doesn't require significant analyzation imo, especially at this point. The proof is in the pudding that neither the owner or the GM were up to the task.

They created their need to rebuild as much as they botched said rebuild imo.

 

[Beech]

Dorion consistently made a terrible mistake (I know captain obvious) when drafting. He would draft for his projected need 2-3 years out and always assumed his picks would hit.

Brown and White means we can move Z-Bad.

JBD and Thomson will replace Zub.

His decisions were made of blind optimism or massive ego but it’s terrible.

You draft BPA and that asset can either grow and push someone out or be used in a trade.

Idiot.

we are all susceptible to ego. Dorion was constantly being heralded as a great scout. As one who can identify talent and draft it.

So, he started believing his own press.

I remember vividly, he was on TGOR back in 2013/2014.. And Steve Warren was talking draft and suggesting "a hit and miss", "an element of luck".. and so on.

Dorion piped in " how they know what they are doing.".. he seemed indignant.

I soured on him then. Long before he was made GM... I went," OHH NO.. he and the Sens believe their own press!"

I have seen this before... You have as well. Think how many people run around thinking "I alone can fix it" (Thank you Trump and Erik M. for replaying this on your show).

So, yea Dorion's ego wrote cheques, his skill could not cash.

If the following list of transactions throughout his tenure weren't similarly bad, or if it still mattered, I might be willing to go down the rabbit hole a little more on this.

It doesn't require significant analyzation imo, especially at this point. The proof is in the pudding that neither the owner or the GM were up to the task.

They created their need to rebuild as much as they botched said rebuild imo.

I am agreeing with you

Dorion's ego wort cheques his skill could not cash
Melnyk was a 10 on 10 as a bad owner.

perfect storm.

 

[Wallet Inspector]

You know, IIRC, our scouts actually weren't thrilled about drafting Zibanejad in 2011, the 5 guys picked before him were all ranked quite a bit above him in our lists.

I wonder if Dorion traded him so carelessly due to not really being that high on him in the first place.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

You know, IIRC, our scouts actually weren't thrilled about drafting Zibanejad in 2011, the 5 guys picked before him were all ranked quite a bit above him in our lists.

I wonder if Dorion traded him so carelessly due to not really being that high on him in the first place.

There is also the fact that Zibanejad needed a new contract and we were dead broke.

I hate Dorion as much as anyone here but he was put in a very, very difficult position. Dorion obviously f***ed it up because he's an idiot but he also was set up to fail; everybody knew why we "had to" trade him: he had no money and no leverage.

The mix of Melnyk and Dorion was radioactive.

 

[Micklebot]

You know, IIRC, our scouts actually weren't thrilled about drafting Zibanejad in 2011, the 5 guys picked before him were all ranked quite a bit above him in our lists.

I wonder if Dorion traded him so carelessly due to not really being that high on him in the first place.

Odd, I remember there being talk leading up to the draft that we liked him, I'm sure we were disappointed we missed out on Landeskog who was another name we were linked to, and probably Huberdeau but I don't recall anything about us liking Strome at all.

 

[DrEasy]

There is also the fact that Zibanejad needed a new contract and we were dead broke.

I hate Dorion as much as anyone here but he was put in a very, very difficult position. Dorion obviously f***ed it up because he's an idiot but he also was set up to fail; everybody knew why we "had to" trade him: he had no money and no leverage.

The mix of Melnyk and Dorion was radioactive.

Fine, so say they can't pay Ziba, but that's not a reason to get such a pitiful return on the trade. At the time I didn't know what to expect of Brassard, and was willing to believe that Dorion had done due diligence on him, but even then I didn't understand why *we* were the ones giving up a 2nd rounder on top of Ziba to get him.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

There is also the fact that Zibanejad needed a new contract and we were dead broke.

I hate Dorion as much as anyone here but he was put in a very, very difficult position. Dorion obviously f***ed it up because he's an idiot but he also was set up to fail; everybody knew why we "had to" trade him: he had no money and no leverage.

The mix of Melnyk and Dorion was radioactive.

What's really silly about it all is his next contract wasn't even very big and would have been easily justified with the production he'd put up and had been trending towards. It was only a 5 year, basically 2nd line center contract. Melnyk had that rebuild earmarked way before it was even necessary, Dorion helped him get there quicker and made it seem necessary by then. The Two Stooges.

 

[L'Aveuglette]

Shots are 16 to 3 in Florida's favor 5 minutes into the second period. Woof.

 

[LiseL]

I want them to develop a system where the cap is based on after tax salaries.

Great minds think alike. I looked up all tax rates (federal - provincial/state) to see how pro-rating the cap based on tax rates would look like, here are my results:

Canada 33% federal
U.S. 37% federal

Because the U.S. federal rate is 4% higher than Canada, I factored that in for U.S. teams.

The amount under Difference is the percentage the cap should be lower for those teams. So under this scenario, only Montreal Canadiens would get the full cap amount, everyone else would be lowered based on the difference in tax rates.

Province/State Rate Difference Teams

Quebec 21.25% 0.0$ Montreal Canadiens

B.C. 20.5% .75% Vancouver Canucks

Manitoba 17.4% 3.85% Winnipeg Jets

California 13.3% 3.95% L.A. Kings, Anaheim Ducks, San Jose Sharks

Alberta 15.% 6.25% Calgary Flames, Edmonton Oilers

New York 10.9% 6.35% New York Islanders, New York Rangers, Buffalo Sabres

New Jersey 10.75% 6.5% New Jersey Devils

Washington D.C. 10.75% 6.5% Washington Capitals

Minnesota 9.85% 7.6% Minnesota Wild

Ontario 13.16% 8.09% Ottawa Senators, Toronto Maple Leafs

Massachusetts 9% 8.25% Boston Bruins

Illinois 4.95% 12.3% Chicago Black Hawks

Missouri 4.95% 12.3% St. Louis Blues

Utah 4.85% 12.2% Coyotes

North Carolina 4.75% 12.1% Carolina Hurricanes

Colorado 4.4% 12.85% Colorado Avalanche

Michigan 4.25% 13% Detroit Red Wings

Ohio 3.99% 13.26% Columbus Blue Jackets

Pennsylvania 3.07% 14.18% Philadelphia Flyers, Pittsburgh Penguins

NO TAX STATES 0.0% 17.25%

Florida Florida Panthers, Tampa Bay Lightening

Nevada Las Vegas Knights

Tennessee Nashville Predators

Texas Dallas Stars

Washington Seattle Kraken

So for the no tax states, if the cap were set to 100 million, they'd each only have 82,750,000 to spend. They'd still be a preferred destination, but players would have to take a discount in order for them to ice a competitive team. This will never happen, but it would be nice.

 

[Xspyrit]

Fine, so say they can't pay Ziba, but that's not a reason to get such a pitiful return on the trade. At the time I didn't know what to expect of Brassard, and was willing to believe that Dorion had done due diligence on him, but even then I didn't understand why *we* were the ones giving up a 2nd rounder on top of Ziba to get him.

Can't believe we couldn't find a way to pay Zibanejad... Sure Brassard made 10 M$ for the next 3 years, Zibanejad made 3.25 for 2016-17 then had a 5.35 cap hit on his next contract... so 13.95 vs 10.0... We couldn't find 4 M$ over a 3 years period? Is it why we gave up on the 23 y/o center?

Outside of Ryan's contract, Dorion also inherited a great cap situation... Lot of good contracts there :

2015-16 Ottawa Senators Cap Table

The Ottawa Senators 2015-16 salary cap table, including salary cap table, including team cap space, player cap hits, incentives, & bonus info.

www.spotrac.com

Karlsson at 6.5 AAV for 3 more years
Methot at 4.9 AAV for 3 more years
Anderson at 4.2 for 2 more years
Turris at 3.5 AAV for 2 more years
Stone at 3.5 AAV for 2 more years
Zack Smith at $1,89 AAV for 1 more year

Hoffman RFA, Pageau 1 year at 0.9 AAV then RFA, Ceci RFA, Paul 2 years at 0.89 AAV then RFA, Dzingel RFA, Chabot ELC, etc.


He still found a way to mess it up

 

[Ouroboros]

You know, IIRC, our scouts actually weren't thrilled about drafting Zibanejad in 2011, the 5 guys picked before him were all ranked quite a bit above him in our lists.

I wonder if Dorion traded him so carelessly due to not really being that high on him in the first place.

This is true - Ryan Strome was the guy they wanted in the 2011 draft. Tim Murray also gave a radio interview where he sort of suggested that the Sens passed up a defenseman [obviously Dougie Hamilton] they had ranked higher than Zibanejad because they already had Karlsson, Rundblad, Cowen, and Wiercioch in the fold.

The Sens also had Zibanejad traded out of town on at least two occasions before the Brassard deal. In the summer of 2014 Bryan Murray was in deep discussions with the Leafs about a Zibanejad/Kadri trade. Sens were willing to do it 1-for-1 but the Leafs eventually came back and said they wanted a draft pick added in and it fell apart. The next time was when Dorion took over and offered the Avs a package of Chabot and Zibanejad for Matt Duchene, which Patrick Roy agreed to. That deal was scuttled by Joe Sakic which is part of the reason why there was so much pressure on him to get a good return in that debacle.

The second aspect of moving Zibanejad was related to Erik Karlsson. The Senators only had him for 2 more years, and likely knew at that point that they weren't going to be able to keep him. Just the way that contracts were heading with massive money, signing bonuses, trade protection and whatnot. Melnyk wasn't willing or able to go there. So the team was trying to maximize that window while not locking themselves into any contracts that extended beyond Karlsson's term. I think a similar situation played out with Kyle Turris.

The mandate Dorion had at this time was to push the chips into the middle while they still had Erik Karlsson on a huge bargain contract. Win at all costs, but not literally because you aren't allowed to spend any money to do it. Under these circumstances it's easy to see how the Zibanejad/Brassard trade was appealing at the time.

Didn't end up working out, but that's kind of the story of Dorion's entire tenure as GM. Did lots of stuff that looked like it should have paid off a lot better than it actually did.

 

[Gil Gunderson]

I remember Zib for Rick Nash (Nash wouldn’t waive for Ottawa) and Zib for Duchene runours pretty vividly.

 

[Ouroboros]

I remember Zib for Rick Nash (Nash wouldn’t waive for Ottawa) and Zib for Duchene runours pretty vividly.

Forgot about that one!

As I recall, that was Zibanejad, Lehner, Foligno and a 1st for Nash and Methot? Something like that. Nash killed it with his NTC.

 

[PlayOn]

This is true - Ryan Strome was the guy they wanted in the 2011 draft. Tim Murray also gave a radio interview where he sort of suggested that the Sens passed up a defenseman [obviously Dougie Hamilton] they had ranked higher than Zibanejad because they already had Karlsson, Rundblad, Cowen, and Wiercioch in the fold.

The Sens also had Zibanejad traded out of town on at least two occasions before the Brassard deal. In the summer of 2014 Bryan Murray was in deep discussions with the Leafs about a Zibanejad/Kadri trade. Sens were willing to do it 1-for-1 but the Leafs eventually came back and said they wanted a draft pick added in and it fell apart. The next time was when Dorion took over and offered the Avs a package of Chabot and Zibanejad for Matt Duchene, which Patrick Roy agreed to. That deal was scuttled by Joe Sakic which is part of the reason why there was so much pressure on him to get a good return in that debacle.

The second aspect of moving Zibanejad was related to Erik Karlsson. The Senators only had him for 2 more years, and likely knew at that point that they weren't going to be able to keep him. Just the way that contracts were heading with massive money, signing bonuses, trade protection and whatnot. Melnyk wasn't willing or able to go there. So the team was trying to maximize that window while not locking themselves into any contracts that extended beyond Karlsson's term. I think a similar situation played out with Kyle Turris.

The mandate Dorion had at this time was to push the chips into the middle while they still had Erik Karlsson on a huge bargain contract. Win at all costs, but not literally because you aren't allowed to spend any money to do it. Under these circumstances it's easy to see how the Zibanejad/Brassard trade was appealing at the time.

Didn't end up working out, but that's kind of the story of Dorion's entire tenure as GM. Did lots of stuff that looked like it should have paid off a lot better than it actually did.

Zibby and Chabot for Duchene is insane… yeesh

 

[DylanSensFan]

This is the around the NHL thread still, right? What did people think of the Florida vs Boston game?

 

[PlayOn]

This is the around the NHL thread still, right? What did people think of the Florida vs Boston game?

Boston doesn’t have the firepower up front to match the elite teams imo. I’d be surprised if they won the series, but then again, I think only NYR ever had much of a chance against Florida in the East

Their consistent 2-3 shot first periods are also just brutal

 

[JungleBeat]

Draisaitl is such a good player. Edmonton working him to the bone and he’s always clutch in the playoffs.

 

[DylanSensFan]

He's injured and still putting up goals. He's definitely a talent.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

 

[Gil Gunderson]

Stuart Skinner might single-handedly cost the Oilers this series. Good God.

 

[Tuna99]

Toronto entering their ‘trading Hossa’ years. Good luck chasing your tail Brendan - get yourself a f***ing goalie and a legit defence before you goal is to keep your fans happy - goalies keep fans happy.

 

[dumbdick]

Stuart Skinner might single-handedly cost the Oilers this series. Good God.

Because of the simpson reference right before this post, I immediately read 'Skinner' in Super Nintendo Chalmers' voice.

Toronto entering their ‘trading Hossa’ years. Good luck chasing your tail Brendan - get yourself a f***ing goalie and a legit defence before you goal is to keep your fans happy - goalies keep fans happy.

Shhh. Dont listen to him Toronto. You're doing great.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Damn, this Vancouver Edmonton series is a treat to watch.

Mc David decided to have a night. Vancouver needs to have a few guys that can smother stars when the whistles go away in the playoffs….

I saw Petterson taking little punches like Sedin did after a whistle…. Shit, not sure that’s a team that gets it done.