Around the NHL — Episode XLXVI

[Tragedy]

the irony of what you posted is the bolded is what you actually need to win. Anyone with money to spend and a destination that players will go to can sign a Perron, a Petry, a Ghost, a Compher.

i don't have a dog in the fight, it really doesn't matter to me but the actual truth of it is this:

• gifted two young Hall of famers and an attractive destination and he thrived
• minus two young Hall of famers and he's failed to make the playoffs in 5 years

and all I will say it's hard to f*** up the first situation and hard to dig your way out of the second one
So what has he really done that is special?

And if you point either of the 2 out, or happen to mention he didn't win jack in Tampa and the moves that pushed Tampa over the hump to win their cups were made by Julien BriseBois you catch quite a lot of flak

 

[Hale The Villain]

Well, 5 years into his tenure what does he have?

Apart from Seider, he's got a group of on the downside veteran D, probably 3 or 4 of whom are out of the league in two years. and Edvinson who everyone says is gonna be great but he's D+3 now and still played most of his year in the A.

And then upfront, you've got a run of the mill Ufa guy in Compfer and you've got over the hill guys in Kane and Perron amongst your top scorers.

Literally 40% of the roster is free agent opportunism. Aging players, on the downside, looking for a cheque, looking to keep the glory alive.

What he's assembled hasn't made the playoffs and if he strips it down and goes with youth, he's in SJ territory

He started with Larkin, Rasmussen, Hronek, Athanasiou, Mantha and Bertuzzi, with an aging roster of players close to the end of their careers and very little in the pipeline after contending for a long time. They were basically in a similar position to the Penguins/Capitals now.

If you look at his moves, they have proven to be very impressive:

Sold high on Athanasiou and turned him into two 2nds
Sold high on Mantha and turned him into Vrana, 1st, 2nd
Sold high on Bertuzzi and turned him into into a 1st
Turned Hronek into a 1st + 2nd, then replaced him with Gostisbehere in FA
Also added Walman and Fabbri at no cost to the team

Then used the resulting cap space to sign all the guys you mentioned, plus some underrated signings like Sprong, Walman, Maatta.

In 5 years they have added Seider, Raymond, Edvinsson, ASP, Danielson, Kasper, Wallinder, Cossa, Wallinder, Mazur, Buium, Buchelnikov, Augustine, Gibson and more.

There's not a ton of elite talent there besides Seider and Raymond, but to be fair the Wings didn't have any lottery luck over the 5 years and only ever moved down.

No GM is perfect, but he's done a great job overall.

 

[bicboi64]

the irony of what you posted is the bolded is what you actually need to win. Anyone with money to spend and a destination that players will go to can sign a Perron, a Petry, a Ghost, a Compher.

i don't have a dog in the fight, it really doesn't matter to me but the actual truth of it is this:

• gifted two young Hall of famers and an attractive destination and he thrived
• minus two young Hall of famers and he's failed to make the playoffs in 5 years

and all I will say it's hard to f*** up the first situation and hard to dig your way out of the second one
So what has he really done that is special?

Yzerman had to completely rebuild the Wings because aside from Larkin he didn't have much to work with.

Yes he had Stamkos and Hedman, but you have to build around them. He was proactive enough to make short term moves to acquire pieces that led to an ECF and their 1st finals run (acquired Roloson, McElhinny, Brewer in 2011), and then acquired Bishop who's Vezina calibre season helped them get to the finals (plus Yzerman's draft picks like Kucherov started to breakout).

Yzerman drafted and developed the following players that he could move as capital or helped them in the postseason:
-Kucherov, Palat, Vasilevsky, Point, Cirelli,
-Connolly, Gudas, Paquette, Drouin, Erne, Joseph, Raddysh, Ross, Foote, Perbix,

Look at the core guys that were drafted by Yzerman that have lead to their success and all the other talent that ended up playing in the NHL. I didn't even mention guys like Howden who TBL drafted but were able to move.
Look at how he handled trades:
-Conacher and a 4th for Bishop
-Disgruntled St.Louis and a 2nd for Callahan, and two 1sts
-Expiring RFA Connolly for 2nds
-Tony D for a 2nd
-Bishop for Cernak
-Pending UFA Boyle into a 2nd
-Drouin for Sergachev + 2nd
-Namestnikov, Howden, Hájek and a 1st for McDonagh and JT Miller

Yzerman built a foundation that is built to be competitive for years. Brisebois had to come in and finish it off, but given what we've had with Dorion, I'd love to have a GM that can build a foundation via draft, wins more trades than loses, and knows how to make good signings.

 

[JungleBeat]

Bring Yzerman to Ottawa. That Detroit team was bare bones when we took over.

 

[GCK]

Bill Armstrong should take his new found money and send a 6 year 7M AAV offer sheet to Byfield.
A 1st, 2nd, 3rd in 2025. LA might match but it would hurt a team you are going to be competing with for a playoff spot next year.

 

[Loach]

He started with Larkin, Rasmussen, Hronek, Athanasiou, Mantha and Bertuzzi, with an aging roster of players close to the end of their careers and very little in the pipeline after contending for a long time. They were basically in a similar position to the Penguins/Capitals now.

If you look at his moves, they have proven to be very impressive:

Sold high on Athanasiou and turned him into two 2nds
Sold high on Mantha and turned him into Vrana, 1st, 2nd
Sold high on Bertuzzi and turned him into into a 1st
Turned Hronek into a 1st + 2nd, then replaced him with Gostisbehere in FA
Also added Walman and Fabbri at no cost to the team

Then used the resulting cap space to sign all the guys you mentioned, plus some underrated signings like Sprong, Walman, Maatta.

In 5 years they have added Seider, Raymond, Edvinsson, ASP, Danielson, Kasper, Wallinder, Cossa, Wallinder, Mazur, Buium, Buchelnikov, Augustine, Gibson and more.

There's not a ton of elite talent there besides Seider and Raymond, but to be fair the Wings didn't have any lottery luck over the 5 years and only ever moved down.

No GM is perfect, but he's done a great job overall.

You forgot Wallinder

 

[Hale The Villain]

Yes he had Stamkos and Hedman, but you have to build around them. He was proactive enough to make short term moves to acquire pieces that led to an ECF and their 1st finals run (acquired Roloson, McElhinny, Brewer in 2011), and then acquired Bishop who's Vezina calibre season helped them get to the finals (plus Yzerman's draft picks like Kucherov started to breakout).

Yzerman drafted and developed the following players that he could move as capital or helped them in the postseason:
-Kucherov, Palat, Vasilevsky, Point, Cirelli,
-Connolly, Gudas, Paquette, Drouin, Erne, Joseph, Raddysh, Ross, Foote, Perbix,

Look at the core guys that were drafted by Yzerman that have lead to their success and all the other talent that ended up playing in the NHL. I didn't even mention guys like Howden who TBL drafted but were able to move.
Look at how he handled trades:
-Conacher and a 4th for Bishop
-Disgruntled St.Louis and a 2nd for Callahan, and two 1sts
-Expiring RFA Connolly for 2nds
-Tony D for a 2nd
-Bishop for Cernak
-Pending UFA Boyle into a 2nd
-Drouin for Sergachev + 2nd
-Namestnikov, Howden, Hájek and a 1st for McDonagh and JT Miller

Yzerman built a foundation that is built to be competitive for years. Brisebois had to come in and finish it off, but given what we've had with Dorion, I'd love to have a GM that can build a foundation via draft, wins more trades than loses, and knows how to make good signings.

Well done. This is the proper method for evaluating GMs.

People tend to place way too much emphasis on things that a GM can't control or isn't responsible for, such as the position the team is in when he takes over and the quality of a team's draft picks (particularly on day 2).

Yzerman has a reputation as an elite GM in this league for a reason. It's fully deserved.

 

[bicboi64]

Well done. This is the proper method for evaluating GMs.

People tend to place way too much emphasis on things that a GM can't control or isn't responsible for, such as the position the team is in when he takes over and the quality of a team's draft picks (particularly on day 2).

Yzerman has a reputation as an elite GM in this league for a reason. It's fully deserved.

Absolutely.

I do think Yzerman has some flaws. His drafting in the first round is pretty mid. He gives out too much trade protection on long-term contracts which can backfire (full credit to Brisebois for being able to move some of the deals he did).

But in the larger picture, Yzerman is a pretty damn good GM and I hate that Detroit has someone like him that can set up a division rival for a long time, even if he gets fired smh.

Bill Armstrong should take his new found money and send a 6 year 7M AAV offer sheet to Byfield.
A 1st, 2nd, 3rd in 2025. LA might match but it would hurt a team you are going to be competing with for a playoff spot next year.

I would love to see that. Offer Sheets provide some much missed drama in the league and I'd love to see LA in cap troubles. If Utah helps put LA in cap troubles, maybe we can poach a guy like Danault or

 

[JD1]

You guys talking about great GMs. Go back to the start of the salary cap in 05. What do you have? Pretty much what you've got are hall of fame level players drafted in the top 5 of their years driving cup winning teams. There isn't a team since that lockout except Boston that doesn't fit that mould. And Boston's aberration is getting their hall of Famers in the 2nd round and via free agency stemming from the cap.

If you don't have those players, you CAN'T win. And to get them, you HAVE to suck first. And be LUCKY to suck in the right years.

Luckily for us as Sens fans, Toronto had that but can't win for trying.

 

[bicboi64]

You guys talking about great GMs. Go back to the start of the salary cap in 05. What do you have? Pretty much what you've got are hall of fame level players drafted in the top 5 of their years driving cup winning teams. There isn't a team since that lockout except Boston that doesn't fit that mould. And Boston's aberration is getting their hall of Famers in the 2nd round and via free agency stemming from the cap.

If you don't have those players, you CAN'T win. And to get them, you HAVE to suck first. And be LUCKY to suck in the right years.

Luckily for us as Sens fans, Toronto had that but can't win for trying.

But you need a GM to hit homeruns in the draft, trade and FA signings. It's not enough to have just Hall of Fame-level players.

Look at Edmonton, McDrai are both going to end up in the HoF, but they haven't had a GM be able to put a solid roster around them until maybe this year. Look at St. Louis's cup, not sure if I consider Pietrangelo or O'Rielly HoF calibre, but Doug Armstrong was a smart GM who put them in a position to win.

Even Colorado. Yes Makar, Mackinnon and Landesog were top picks, but until Sakic made the moves to get them in a position to go deep, they'd be another 'what if'.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

But you need a GM to hit homeruns in the draft, trade and FA signings. It's not enough to have just Hall of Fame-level players.

Look at Edmonton, McDrai are both going to end up in the HoF, but they haven't had a GM be able to put a solid roster around them until maybe this year. Look at St. Louis's cup, not sure if I consider Pietrangelo or O'Rielly HoF calibre, but Doug Armstrong was a smart GM who put them in a position to win.

Even Colorado. Yes Makar, Mackinnon and Landesog were top picks, but until Sakic made the moves to get them in a position to go deep, they'd be another 'what if'.

And continue to make those moves. Contenders are always having to shuffle things around to stay competitive and be cap compliant, but the good ones do it with little disruption year after year.

 

[JD1]

But you need a GM to hit homeruns in the draft, trade and FA signings. It's not enough to have just Hall of Fame-level players.

Look at Edmonton, McDrai are both going to end up in the HoF, but they haven't had a GM be able to put a solid roster around them until maybe this year. Look at St. Louis's cup, not sure if I consider Pietrangelo or O'Rielly HoF calibre, but Doug Armstrong was a smart GM who put them in a position to win.

Even Colorado. Yes Makar, Mackinnon and Landesog were top picks, but until Sakic made the moves to get them in a position to go deep, they'd be another 'what if'.

You can find examples of teams that had top 5 picks and didn't get it done. Toronto and Edmonton being the most obvious. Toronto having handcuffed themselves imo.

What you can't find is a team that doesn't fit what I said.

St. Louis is the only team with only the one top 5 and Pietrangelo is definitely going to the Hall. Two time Cup winner. Captain of a cup winner. 3 time all star selection. World Junior gold.

Listen to what you're saying. Until moves were made. Well of course. But your original point was Detroit needs elite talent and good goaltending. They don't have elite talent and not bottoming out and winning lottery prevents them from getting it. 5 years. Can't get to the dance.

 

[Micklebot]

You can find examples of teams that had top 5 picks and didn't get it done. Toronto and Edmonton being the most obvious. Toronto having handcuffed themselves imo.

What you can't find is a team that doesn't fit what I said.

St. Louis is the only team with only the one top 5 and Pietrangelo is definitely going to the Hall. Two time Cup winner. Captain of a cup winner. 3 time all star selection. World Junior gold.

Listen to what you're saying. Until moves were made. Well of course. But your original point was Detroit needs elite talent and good goaltending. They don't have elite talent and not bottoming out and winning lottery prevents them from getting it. 5 years. Can't get to the dance.

Maybe Vegas? Eichel wasn't really driving their success though he had a very good playoffs, nor would I say he is hall of fame level (edit, thinking about it, ya he probably is, being burried on a bad buffalo team for so long probably jaded me on him ). Even if you do include Eichel and Pietrangelo, both were traded for, which at the very least makes VGK more of a unique case.

But generally speaking I do agree, you pretty much need the elite top end that's hard to come by

 

[JD1]

Maybe Vegas? Eichel wasn't really driving their success though he had a very good playoffs, nor would I say he is hall of fame level (edit, thinking about it, ya he probably is, being burried on a bad buffalo team for so long probably jaded me on him ). Even if you do include Eichel and Pietrangelo, both were traded for, which at the very least makes VGK more of a unique case.

But generally speaking I do agree, you pretty much need the elite top end that's hard to come by

About a week ago I had a post about Vegas playing by a different set of rules. Elite talent can become Ufa in their mid 20s. Vegas is a no tax state and the premier destination for NHL talent. They're in on every player. Their model literally doesn't apply to anyone else

 

[bicboi64]

You can find examples of teams that had top 5 picks and didn't get it done. Toronto and Edmonton being the most obvious. Toronto having handcuffed themselves imo.

What you can't find is a team that doesn't fit what I said.

St. Louis is the only team with only the one top 5 and Pietrangelo is definitely going to the Hall. Two time Cup winner. Captain of a cup winner. 3 time all star selection. World Junior gold.

Listen to what you're saying. Until moves were made. Well of course. But your original point was Detroit needs elite talent and good goaltending. They don't have elite talent and not bottoming out and winning lottery prevents them from getting it. 5 years. Can't get to the dance.

I think you're looking at all non-playoff teams as the same in terms of quality. There's a significant difference between a team that finished 9th and was playing meaningful hockey all season long and whatever we are.

My whole point isn't that Detroit needs elite talent. It's hat Detroit's GM has positioned them so that whenever any of their top prospects break out, they are set. Without elite talent and goaltending, they were super close.

They tried bottoming out but had bad lotto luck, but still had gems like Seider (their version of Sandy). They already have enough talent throughout the roster that offsets having super elite players but they still have enough prospects that can be their version of what we have in Stu.

My whole point is teams like Detroit having management that isn't utter shite because they don't rely on one aspect of managing a roster to win.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Guys islanders made the playoffs???

Bill Armstrong should take his new found money and send a 6 year 7M AAV offer sheet to Byfield.
A 1st, 2nd, 3rd in 2025. LA might match but it would hurt a team you are going to be competing with for a playoff spot next year.

Damn Montreal may do that

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Bill Armstrong should take his new found money and send a 6 year 7M AAV offer sheet to Byfield.
A 1st, 2nd, 3rd in 2025. LA might match but it would hurt a team you are going to be competing with for a playoff spot next year.

What “ new found money”?

 

[JD1]

I think you're looking at all non-playoff teams as the same in terms of quality. There's a significant difference between a team that finished 9th and was playing meaningful hockey all season long and whatever we are.

My whole point isn't that Detroit needs elite talent. It's hat Detroit's GM has positioned them so that whenever any of their top prospects break out, they are set. Without elite talent and goaltending, they were super close.

They tried bottoming out but had bad lotto luck, but still had gems like Seider (their version of Sandy). They already have enough talent throughout the roster that offsets having super elite players but they still have enough prospects that can be their version of what we have in Stu.

My whole point is teams like Detroit having management that isn't utter shite because they don't rely on one aspect of managing a roster to win.

I thought we were talking about Yzerman, not "teams like Detroit"

Look guys, Detroit has been out of the playoffs longer than us. They haven't had the horribad ownership situation. They didn't manage for years giving away picks for cash. They were always able to assemble a team near the cap. And they probably we're not on as many NTCs as we were

What's not debatable here is they've missed the playoffs longer than we have
They've spent more money on salary than we have over the last number of years too

If you want to try to work around those facts to suggest their management has been fantastic and ours has been terrible, enjoy yourself but I'm not buying it.

 

[Icelevel]

Oh pageau is out?

1-1 1st period

 

[Senscore]

Isles aren't going to be an easy out.

 

[Wallet Inspector]

Vegas "Ottawa needs to lose a 1st round pick because our inability to trade Dadonov and replace him with Stone in our lineup cost us a playoff spot"

Also Vegas: Hold Stone out of the regular season two years in a row.

Like, I'm not even saying for sure that they're lying about Stone's injury, but it's bullshit they cried about Stone missing costing them a playoff spot one year when they've clearly shown they are comfortable leaving him out in other year.

 

[SensHulk]

Vegas "Ottawa needs to lose a 1st round pick because our inability to trade Dadonov and replace him with Stone in our lineup cost us a playoff spot"

Also Vegas: Hold Stone out of the regular season two years in a row.

Like, I'm not even saying for sure that they're lying about Stone's injury, but it's bullshit they cried about Stone missing costing them a playoff spot one year when they've clearly shown they are comfortable leaving him out in other year.

Don’t be fooled. If they didn’t outright lie they stretched the truth. They are 100% circumventing the rules.

What I don’t get is how Devils got dinged for circumventing the cap and not operating under the ‘spirit’ of the rules yet nothing is being done here, or bare minimum being investigated

The old adage ‘if you ain’t cheating, you ain’t trying’ really rings true. Just wait till they start filming practices and banging garbage cans

 

[GCK]

Vegas "Ottawa needs to lose a 1st round pick because our inability to trade Dadonov and replace him with Stone in our lineup cost us a playoff spot"

Also Vegas: Hold Stone out of the regular season two years in a row.

Like, I'm not even saying for sure that they're lying about Stone's injury, but it's bullshit they cried about Stone missing costing them a playoff spot one year when they've clearly shown they are comfortable leaving him out in other year.

I posted a simple CBA fix that solves the Kucherov, Stone, Kane, Stone, etc… issues along either the 17 skaters issue.

 

[mysens]

Another property of the Ottawa Senators scores a big goal for Carolina. Stefan Noesen.