Around the League 35-The Finals (and other talk) edition

[Daeavorn]

Wow so not even Kane could set him up for more than 10 goals and he couldn't feed massive numbers of assists from the cat?

Not very promising...

It's not like Kokomiami's numbers were inflated by spending tons of time /w Svech & TT.

Kk actually had a very high pts/60 for a 4th line center, and i believe he had the highest pts/60 of any 4th line center.

he should be able to get 40 pts easily with 18 min a game.

 

[Chrispy]

Because we’d be flooded with responses that Dach has way more potential as an offensive center and he’s cheaper than KK. As a Habs fan I would think the swap was worth it.

I have hope for Koko but see him likely as a third line center and with some luck a second line guy if you put him with really good line mates like we can. On their team he’s a third line guy probably.

Dach’s skill level makes him more of a second line guy or maybe a 1b if he pans out. If he doesn’t pan out he can be a third line guy same as Koko would’ve been for them and he’s cheaper.

Cheaper, but also only under team control through 2027 (RFA for one more year at expiration of the contract.) Carolina bought out multiple UFA years of Kotkaniemi and signed him for 4 more years. I think those extra years are worth an extra $1.5M in cap space on the front end.

More potential? Kotkaniemi had more points last year in 469 fewer minutes while playing most often with Stepan, Martinook, and Lorentz. By frozenpool estimate, I see about 42% of Kotkaniemi's time on a 4th line (I defined as with Martinook, Stepan, or Lorentz.)

Dach played 36% of his minutes with Kane, DeBrincat, or both. Dach played 469 more minutes overall. Kotkaniemi outscored Dach.

The age difference is 6 months, so it's not like Dach is some brand new prospect in comparison either.

 

[WreckingCrew]

On another note - has no one identified the irony of the Habs trading literally a 1st and 3rd round pick (1st being 13th overall) for an underperforming 3rd overall pick? Then signing him to an “undeserved” long-term deal at a way higher AAV than his past production justifies? Why are we not flooding the main boards with shitposting about this every day???

It is kind of funny that after shitting on us for giving them a 1st (#26) & 3rd (#92) for underperforming 3rd overall pick KK, they turn around and give up a 1st & 2nd for Dvorak (who only slightly outperformed KK), AND gave up a BETTER 1st (#13) & 3rd (#66) for an underperforming 3rd overall pick...and bragging about it. Cognitive Dissonance in a nutshell my friends

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

It is kind of funny that after shitting on us for giving them a 1st (#26) & 3rd (#92) for underperforming 3rd overall pick KK, they turn around and give up a 1st & 2nd for Dvorak (who only slightly outperformed KK), AND gave up a BETTER 1st (#13) & 3rd (#66) for an underperforming 3rd overall pick...and bragging about it. Cognitive Dissonance in a nutshell my friends

Yep! And at the end of the day, in a vacuum I think this is a perfectly good gamble for the Habs. Just like I thought KK was a perfectly good gamble. I just love the dissonance that you mentioned.

 

[AhosDatsyukian]

It is kind of funny that after shitting on us for giving them a 1st (#26) & 3rd (#92) for underperforming 3rd overall pick KK, they turn around and give up a 1st & 2nd for Dvorak (who only slightly outperformed KK), AND gave up a BETTER 1st (#13) & 3rd (#66) for an underperforming 3rd overall pick...and bragging about it. Cognitive Dissonance in a nutshell my friends

this should be a main board thread

 

[Joe McGrath]

I’ve never understood the hype for Dach. Much like Koko. Big centers with questionable skating and not an overwhelming amount of production at any high level.

 

[bleedgreen]

I’m not a Habs fan just because I used the most obvious arguments that they would use.

I do see Dach as a better offensive prospect because I’ve watched them both play. I see Koko as the more well rounded player. I think using the meager stats both have put up and using it to decide who’s better long term at this point is pretty pointless.

Like Joe said I see no big deal about either of them. There’s no point trying to rub it into Habs fans faces the irony of the Dach/Koko situation. As I did they can easily come up with reasons to be fine with it. Just like you guys come up with your reasons for thinking Koko is better and about to be something more.

 

[Chrispy]

I’m not a Habs fan just because I used the most obvious arguments that they would use.

I do see Dach as a better offensive prospect because I’ve watched them both play. I see Koko as the more well rounded player. I think using the meager stats both have put up and using it to decide who’s better long term at this point is pretty pointless.

Like Joe said I see no big deal about either of them. There’s no point trying to rub it into Habs fans faces the irony of the Dach/Koko situation. As I did they can easily come up with reasons to be fine with it. Just like you guys come up with your reasons for thinking Koko is better and about to be something more.

I don't think it's an argument of who is guaranteed to be better long-term.

But I think Dach is a at a similar point in development with similar success to Kotkaniemi at best. Montreal deciding Kotkaniemi was not worth a 1st+3rd, but Dach is worth a better 1st+ better 3rd for inferior to similar production despite playing with better linemates, is an interesting gambit on their part.

I also understand this is a new GM team. Maybe this regime would have held onto Kotkaniemi. They probably wouldn't have gone for the offer sheet to Aho, so maybe that makes all of this moot. But it's an interesting trade and extension after letting Kotkaniemi walk one year ago.

 

[Discipline Daddy]

Back when I said Ottawa was going to get into cap issues come 23-24, well now we are seeing it.

Stutz extension is slightly lower than I expected but they have 22 million for next season with 11 players on contract. That doesnt include recently acquired Debrincat, Zub, Pinto, and Formenton. Those 4 alone would eat up a good chunk of that and they would still need 3 defenders, 2 forwards and a goalie.

I'm with you. Most importantly, it's good to see Ottawa is spending to the cap. That makes for a much more fun league to see teams going for it rather than a "haves and haves not" situation of a lot basement dwellers competing for Jack Eichel and taking on boat anchor contracts.

On the other hand, their D is pretty suspect and there is now basically zero flexibility to fix it. I'll assume Alex Formenton gets $3M per year for two years. I definitely could be +/- by $1M, but let's assume 3 for now. That would give the Sens 13F signed this year, and their team will be set for 22-23.

For 23-24, the cap space is $19.6M (with $3M for Formenton). They'd have 8F, 3D, and 1G signed. Let's assume they'll need 5F, 3D, and 1G to be at a 21 man roster. With $19.6M, they have to sign 9 guys. $2.2M per player, totally doable.

But if they want to keep DeBrincat, his QO is $9M. If they sign Cat at $9M, they'd have only $1.3M per remaining roster player. At defense, they probably really want to sign Zub, and I'd imagine he'll cost at least $5M. If you sign Cat and Zub, that could take $14M total, giving you a league minimum $0.8M for each remaining roster player.

It's likely that the Sens will part ways with Zub, as losing Cat feels like a big sunk cost. If I were Pierre Dorion's daughters, I'd shop Cat personally as it opens up the most cap flexibility and the defense is certainly the biggest question mark moving forwards. It's possible Formenton takes less than $3M and gives a bit more breathing space. It looks tight regardless.

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

I'm with you. Most importantly, it's good to see Ottawa is spending to the cap. That makes for a much more fun league to see teams going for it rather than a "haves and haves not" situation of a lot basement dwellers competing for Jack Eichel and taking on boat anchor contracts.

On the other hand, their D is pretty suspect and there is now basically zero flexibility to fix it. I'll assume Alex Formenton gets $3M per year for two years. I definitely could be +/- by $1M, but let's assume 3 for now. That would give the Sens 13F signed this year, and their team will be set for 22-23.

For 23-24, the cap space is $19.6M (with $3M for Formenton). They'd have 8F, 3D, and 1G signed. Let's assume they'll need 5F, 3D, and 1G to be at a 21 man roster. With $19.6M, they have to sign 9 guys. $2.2M per player, totally doable.

But if they want to keep DeBrincat, his QO is $9M. If they sign Cat at $9M, they'd have only $1.3M per remaining roster player. At defense, they probably really want to sign Zub, and I'd imagine he'll cost at least $5M. If you sign Cat and Zub, that could take $14M total, giving you a league minimum $0.8M for each remaining roster player.

It's likely that the Sens will part ways with Zub, as losing Cat feels like a big sunk cost. If I were Pierre Dorion's daughters, I'd shop Cat personally as it opens up the most cap flexibility and the defense is certainly the biggest question mark moving forwards. It's possible Formenton takes less than $3M and gives a bit more breathing space. It looks tight regardless.

Either the Sens still stink and unload Zub at the deadline for a 1st or they will keep him for the playoff push and let him get a big contract in UFA. The Senators have drafted a ton of RHD depth in the first round of the draft (Thomson and Bernard-Docker), and will likely start playing them by the time the big extensions kick in for Norris and Stutzle.

BTW, if the Canes decide to trade Pesce one season early, Zub would be an excellent add for Carolina in the next free agency period. I think of Scott Morrow as the Burns successor more than the Pesce successor, and a medium-term defensive-D add between Pesce and a more defensively-minded righty like Heimosalmi would be smart, I think.

 

[bleedgreen]

I don't think it's an argument of who is guaranteed to be better long-term.

But I think Dach is a at a similar point in development with similar success to Kotkaniemi at best. Montreal deciding Kotkaniemi was not worth a 1st+3rd, but Dach is worth a better 1st+ better 3rd for inferior to similar production despite playing with better linemates, is an interesting gambit on their part.

I also understand this is a new GM team. Maybe this regime would have held onto Kotkaniemi. They probably wouldn't have gone for the offer sheet to Aho, so maybe that makes all of this moot. But it's an interesting trade and extension after letting Kotkaniemi walk one year ago.

I just think the whole production/linemate/usage argument is bunk in either direction. Montreal obviously didn’t know they were going to make this deal back then either. They just had choose between accepting the offer sheet or not which for obvious reasons was a no for them. I didn’t blame them and we still don’t know what we have now. They spent that money in a way that actually lines up more with how we do business. Find a cheaper asset we think could turn out just as well and roll with that and let go of the past. Obviously their fans don’t but that’s not really the conversation.

 

[Stickpucker]

I’m not a Habs fan just because I used the most obvious arguments that they would use.

I do see Dach as a better offensive prospect because I’ve watched them both play. I see Koko as the more well rounded player. I think using the meager stats both have put up and using it to decide who’s better long term at this point is pretty pointless.

Like Joe said I see no big deal about either of them. There’s no point trying to rub it into Habs fans faces the irony of the Dach/Koko situation. As I did they can easily come up with reasons to be fine with it. Just like you guys come up with your reasons for thinking Koko is better and about to be something more.

In watching Dach what do you see that gives you hope for his offensive game? Who is a comparable? How many points do you think he scores this year?

 

[bleedgreen]

He has good hands and skates well with the puck. Pretty good speed and can use it to attack the blue line. Good vision in the offensive zone, finds wide open teammates with ease. He doesn’t have a bomb of a shot but he knows when he needs to get it off quick and gets it on net. I don’t see a current great comparable, Shane Wright reminds me of him a bit. If he gets good wingers and a regular pp shift I’d think 40 is a fair step forward but he wouldn’t shock me to be in the 50-60 range. The Habs have young talent but they could implode and he could end up in the 30 range but that’s a disappointment obviously.

If he doesn’t get on his horse and skate hard he gets caught watching the game and behind the play. He a big guy so he can be slow if he doesn’t keep the feet moving, but when he is he moves very well for a big guy and back the d off.

In watching Dach what do you see that gives you hope for his offensive game? Who is a comparable? How many points do you think he scores this year?

 

[MinJaBen]

Who are the redneck race car fans now?

 

[WreckingCrew]

Ryan Suzuki for Nils Lundkvist...do it

 

[tarheelhockey]

Who are the redneck race car fans now?

View attachment 583990

That looks way worse than I imagined.

 

[Svechhammer]

Who are the redneck race car fans now?

View attachment 583990

Habs are so desperate to be us they put our stadium sponsor from when we won the Cup on their jerseys

That looks way worse than I imagined.

As bad as you think it looks, it looks so much worse in actual use....

Thats right, its slightly larger than the C and A patches

 

[tarheelhockey]

Habs are so desperate to be us they put our stadium sponsor from when we won the Cup on their jerseys



As bad as you think it looks, it looks so much worse in actual use....

Thats right, its slightly larger than the C and A patches

I recognize the reality that this is inevitable in modern sports etc, but something about this is just disgraceful. The Habs jersey means something on a different level. It’s like putting a sponsor on your provincial flag, just really gross.

 

[Svechhammer]

I recognize the reality that this is inevitable in modern sports etc, but something about this is just disgraceful. The Habs jersey means something on a different level. It’s like putting a sponsor on your provincial flag, just really gross.

I genuinely don't think I would hate this nearly as much if they put the patches on the shoulders rather than the front. Seeing the sponsor basically promoted the an equal stance as the team leaders with (in this case) a patch larger than that of the captaincy patches is just gross.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I genuinely don't think I would hate this nearly as much if they put the patches on the shoulders rather than the front. Seeing the sponsor basically promoted the an equal stance as the team leaders with (in this case) a patch larger than that of the captaincy patches is just gross.

I was thinking the exact same thing.

 

[LakeLivin]

A compromise I could live with: put the patches on the pant leg instead of anywhere on the jersey. One might argue that it wouldn't show up in closeups on the pants, but a viewer's eye wouldn't be drawn to whatever else is on the jersey, either. The patch would have the spotlight all to itself, so to speak.

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

In light of Kyrou getting an identical 8 year extension to what Thomas just received, it should be noted that this is what a best-case scenario for the Canes' current draft strategy would look like. Getting Kyrou and Thomas in two straight drafts in the late first round potentially has extended the Blues already-long contention window by another decade.

 

[DaveG]

That looks way worse than I imagined.

I'm already dreading the inevitable Lenovo patch that completely clashes with our color scheme. You know it's coming.

 

[Chrispy]

I'm already dreading the inevitable Lenovo patch that completely clashes with our color scheme. You know it's coming.

If there's one bit of good news, it's that the Lenovo patch can't really clash with the Canes color scheme. It will be black square with white letters on the road jersey and probably white square with black letters on the black jersey.

 

[Svechhammer]

If there's one bit of good news, it's that the Lenovo patch can't really clash with the Canes color scheme. It will be black square with white letters on the road jersey and probably white square with black letters on the black jersey.

Honestly, as long as its something like this I don't think I would care too much. Black and white Lenovo patch right under the shoulder hem would work on either the home blacks or away whites.