Around The League 26: Gostisbe-stillhere

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TheReelChuckFletcher

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Thankfully Dolan is an idiot, so this should help to hobble the Rangers and keep them from being a threat to us for the next several years.

Yes, in a dog-eat-dog sense, Rangers chaos, or really, any chaos in the Metro division, is good for Carolina's ambitions at being perennial Cup contenders. Maybe Jamieson Rees is going to be our future key to taming Wilson.
 

Joe McGrath

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I mean, it's James Dolan. As much as the statement WAS badly needed (imo) the guy isn't exactly known to be the brightest analytical mind before he goes off and does something controversial. Just ask any Knicks fan. Team management not being in the loop and reacting to their disagreement with an ultimatum is beyond on brand for him.

I was under the impression that he doesn’t know anything about what actually goes on with the Rangers and doesn’t really care. Could just be NYC talk radio bullshit though.
 
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DaveG

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I was under the impression that he doesn’t know anything about what actually goes on with the Rangers and doesn’t really care. Could just be NYC talk radio bullshit though.
I mean that was my understanding as well. But something like last night is seriously something i can see setting Dolan off considering just how much he's paying Bread to play for his team. If anything him being generally clueless about hockey makes him shooting off more likely imo.
 

GoldiFox

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I am largely ignorant to Dolan as a sports owner but it seems like I'm seeing a lot of overreactions like he is personally wiping everybody out and taking control. He immediately put Chris Drury at the top, right? I doubt Drury is just a puppet. It seems more likely that Drury was the offseason plan anyway.

There are 100 reasons that NYR could have soured on Davidson and/or Gorton. Kreider and Trouba's contracts which were criticized. Panarin's absence during the year. The entire DeAngelo thing. A badly built defense. The team trading away their one tough-guy in Brendan Lemieux and then losing their best player to a thug.
 

Bunch of Jurcos

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I don’t believe anything that happened or was said was going to change the game, so I don’t know that I agree that they missed a window of opportunity.

I disagree. Because significant change usually happens in the offseason, for example hybrid icing. Getting the non-Washington NHL collective fanbase to agree on anything is significant. There's also been no shortage of public sentiment in opposition to the NHL's decision. And even with all that said, all I said was an opportunity. You're probably right that nothing will change. But this is the right set of circumstances for it to.

We really don’t know how their management felt or actually handled this. We don’t know who made the statement, or who decided the timing of it, we don’t know if everyone agreed, we’re really not sure which side the two guys fired were on and therefore have no idea of which side Dolan is even on. Or what he was trying to accomplish with the firings.

If this was a performance firing, fire them on black Monday. If this is a performance firing, why is Quinn still employed? And it doesn't make sense for Dolan not to support his 80 million dollar player. There is no way that statement is made without Dolan's approval because he's the one cutting the check when the fine is eventually levied
.
 
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GoldiFox

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I mean that was my understanding as well. But something like last night is seriously something i can see setting Dolan off considering just how much he's paying Bread to play for his team. If anything him being generally clueless about hockey makes him shooting off more likely imo.

1) Gorton ships off Lemieux at the deadline - NYRs one tough guy
2) Tom Wilson injures Dolan's superstar $10 million investment
3) Now his team has sit back and be abused for another game which the league could have avoided with the most simple, brainless decision one could make with a 1 game suspension

Yeah he could be mad
 

Chrispy

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Hey remember when everyone thought Dundon was the most meddling owner in the NHL?

Hell, you can't tell me that he wouldn't absolutely be on board with the Canes issuing the kind of statement that the Rangers did last night. He relishes the ability to go against the grain with the way things have always been done in this league.

The benefit of a Borg structure is that something like this is prevented. This can't happen without everyone's knowledge because input is taken from all parties.

The NHL old guard disliked the division of the GM job into multiple roles. Now the GM and president have been fired in New York because they either didn't communicate this message out to ownership or this message was released without communicating with them.
 

bleedgreen

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One factor to keep an eye on -- Panarin is officially out with a lower body injury, not a head injury. While the Rangers' statement didn't quiiiiiiite specify that he was injured by the Wilson slam, it made a very strong insinuation along those lines. Certainly it didn't suggest that the injury happened while he rolling around on the ground or something.

A misleading statement calling for the head of an NHL official is not the sort of thing that guys like Davidson and Gorton would take lightly. Davidson especially is a member of the Old Boys Club with a lot to lose by aligning against the establishment in such a drastic and public manner.

It's easy to imagine (speculate) that something of that nature would lead to a "either fire him or fire me" type of showdown internally.
Because it way more likely happened in the scrum portion of the event, which Panarin was actively taking part in, for better or worse. I’m not saying he deserved it in any way. Just that everyone is freaking out about the body slam, it’s highly unlikely it happened during that exciting part of the wwf event. If it did you’d assume the part of the team that put out that statement would be letting us know all about it.
 

CanesUltimate11

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I don't see calls to ban him from the league... In fact I see his name pop up quite a bit in Hart and Selke conversations these days....

Two reasons, he's that damn good that he deserves those mentions, and he seems to have cut out the BS that made him public enemy #1 for a time. Is he still a rat? Yes, but more of a "I'm going to piss you off" and make you do something stupid kind of rat and not a "I'm going to cripple you for life rat" like Wilson.
 

MinJaBen

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Yes, in a dog-eat-dog sense, Rangers chaos, or really, any chaos in the Metro division, is good for Carolina's ambitions at being perennial Cup contenders. Maybe Jamieson Rees is going to be our future key to taming Wilson.

You mean 5' 11", 172 pound Jamieson Rees? Or did I miss we drafted another Jamieson Rees that is closer to Wilson's 6' 4" 220 pounds?
 

AD Skinner

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My sources may not be sterling but according to Wikipedia (I cant seem to find a version of the nhl rulebook that my phone will tolerate) punching an unsuspecting player is a match penalty. At least if the player is injured because of it anyway. I'm not sure if he returned to the game after being punched but it was clearly an unsuspecting player that Wilson punched. If he's tossed from that game, it doesn't progress and none of this happens. I get that refs and probably the league itself doesn't want to get to a point where players are getting ejected on the regular but to me this whole thing stems from the same complaint we see all the time that no one knows when the officials are or aren't going to call infractions. Personally I'd much rather see 20 penalties per game per side with an ejection every other game than see people get hurt on malicious shit like this.
 

tarheelhockey

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Because it’s way more likely happened in the scrum portion of the event, which Panarin was actively taking part in, for better or worse. I’m not saying he deserved it in any way. Just that everyone is freaking out about the body slam, it’s highly unlikely it happened during that exciting part of the wwf event. If it did you’d assume the part of the team that put out that statement would be letting us know all about it.

Yeah, I think there's room for multiple bad guys in this scenario.

What Wilson did was ridiculous, that doesn't need to be re-hashed again.

But whether someone with the Rangers was misinformed about the cause of Panarin's injury, or whether they were deliberately being less than forthright about it... putting out that statement which draws a link between Wilson and the injury and the direct call to fire George Parros? An establishment guy like Davidson isn't going to take that lightly. I can absolutely imagine the fur flying behind the scenes overnight and into the morning, because that's a situation that absolutely demands everyone decide which side of the line they're going to stand on.

The whole thing is just insane and has a distinctly Old School NHL flavor to it. This is the kind of clown-car nonsense that brought us "have another donut" and replacement refs.
 

bleedgreen

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Yeah, I think there's room for multiple bad guys in this scenario.

What Wilson did was ridiculous, that doesn't need to be re-hashed again.

But whether someone with the Rangers was misinformed about the cause of Panarin's injury, or whether they were deliberately being less than forthright about it... putting out that statement which draws a link between Wilson and the injury and the direct call to fire George Parros? An establishment guy like Davidson isn't going to take that lightly. I can absolutely imagine the fur flying behind the scenes overnight and into the morning, because that's a situation that absolutely demands everyone decide which side of the line they're going to stand on.

The whole thing is just insane and has a distinctly Old School NHL flavor to it. This is the kind of clown-car nonsense that brought us "have another donut" and replacement refs.
There’s no way Davidson would be ok with it. I don’t care if Davidson is old school or an “old boys club” guy. He genuinely loves hockey and it’s growth, and is a good part of any team. His league ties run deep and of course he’s not going to be comfortable with the statement, and his discomfort with it shouldn’t be used against him like he’s part of a regime that needs to be executed. He likely wanted less of a “for show” protest and probably wanted to actually sit down and hear the real rationale behind the leagues decision instead of an “emotional” response that honestly panders to the mob and gets the team in trouble with the league. You can like the statement and also respect JD with his opinion, if that’s what his opinion was.
 
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3CanesInTheBox

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I was under the impression that he doesn’t know anything about what actually goes on with the Rangers and doesn’t really care. Could just be NYC talk radio bullshit though.

This is the general thought in the NY area and imo why the Rangers have generally done so much better than my wretched Knicks for the last decade or so (this year being the rare exception obviously). That being said--as others have alluded to-- this is kind of an egregious incident.

ETA: Maybe this means the Knicks will stay good and the Rangers will collapse into cursed dysfunction?! :)
 
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The Stranger

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The implicit rule, assumed by reasonable people everywhere, that when you punch someone in the back of the head after the whistle, and then you slam someone into the ice by their hair, that you get actual consequences, especially when you're a repeat offender.

A one game suspension was the obvious absolute minimum, and the reaction you're seeing is because the DOPS couldn't even be bothered to do that.

Has a player ever been suspended for hitting someone when they were prone or slamming someone down to the ice? Not being sassy, but I don't ever recall it happening.

DOPS has to be is consistent...so if there is precedent, then I could see a argument that they let Wilson off lightly. If there is a good example please post it.

DOPS has to also give a verdict consistent with the laws on the books too. If there's no explicit rule that could be cited, I suspect a suspension would be appealed and overturned.

Wilson got a match penalty and then a fine for what he did to Buch...if it ended there would the match penalty and fine have been sufficient?

If so, then are we just debating whether he deserved a suspension for slamming Panarin?
 

AhosDatsyukian

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Two reasons, he's that damn good that he deserves those mentions, and he seems to have cut out the BS that made him public enemy #1 for a time. Is he still a rat? Yes, but more of a "I'm going to piss you off" and make you do something stupid kind of rat and not a "I'm going to cripple you for life rat" like Wilson.

So butt end of the stick to the exposed neck has less of a chance to cripple someone for life than whatever Wilson does? That was pretty recent...
 
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tarheelhockey

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Has a player ever been suspended for hitting someone when they were prone or slamming someone down to the ice? Not being sassy, but I don't ever recall it happening.

For throwing someone to the ice, these jump to mind:





Of course those are just a couple of very recent cases. I'm sure there have been a bunch of others if we dig into the archives.

DOPS has to be is consistent...so if there is precedent, then I could see a argument that they let Wilson off lightly. If there is a good example please post it.

DOPS has to also give a verdict consistent with the laws on the books too. If there's no explicit rule that could be cited, I suspect a suspension would be appealed and overturned.

Precedent is not an issue and neither is finding an explicit rule.

The NHL's ability to issue supplemental discipline applies to any violation of the playing rules. Throwing a punch or getting in a fight is a violation of the playing rules, and the refs formalized that by giving him penalties on the play.

The NHL isn't required to use precedent to issue their rulings. The factors that go into their judgments are explicitly laid out in the CBA -- use of force/violence, resulting injury, repeat offender status, game context, and any other general miscellaneous factors that fit into the puzzle. Precedent is not one of those.

The NHLPA can only file an appeal to a neutral arbitrator if the suspension is for 6+ games (and they have done this successfully on Wilson's behalf in the past) but even then, his multi-repeat offender status makes that very, very, very hard to justify. It's hard to imagine a scenario where he could successfully argue precedent matters at all.

Wilson got a match penalty and then a fine for what he did to Buch...if it ended there would the match penalty and fine have been sufficient?

Wilson wasn't given a match penalty, but a 10-minute misconduct. If he had been given a match penalty this issue likely wouldn't have blown up to such a degree, because he'd have likely been suspended for that penalty alone. At a minimum it would have triggered a more thorough review of the incident.

Part of the reason this has become such a thing is that he was lightly penalized by the refs (allowed to return to the game and then score a key goal) and was barely penalized at all by the league.

If so, then are we just debating whether he deserved a suspension for slamming Panarin?

Basically, yes. I don't think anyone's issue is with the fine for punching Buchnevich. It's the non-action on the totality of the sequence and especially the Panarin slam that stirred up the hornet's nest.
 
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