Around the League 2020-21 Part 3, Trade Deadline Edition

[Little Psycho]

That JT collision was scary as f*** but Foligno defending the bro code by fighting Perry was stupid. That was as accidental as it gets. Destroy on the scoreboard instead.

 

[unicornpig]

if the leafs lose again i can see them moving nylander or marner.

 

[bland]

I would prefer if Blake were fired tomorrow and replaced by someone who has never spent a single second in this organization.

But the reality is, that isn't going to happen with his buddy Luc having complete control of the organization. So yes I would prefer if Blake made a move for the 24 year old superstar, since its extremely unlikely this chance will present itself again in the near future, either for Blake or for his potential replacement.

But I'm sure he'll once again add another future 2nd line center in the draft, and stick with his coach and his stupid defensive system that hasn't been relevant in this league for a decade.

Everybody plays the 1-3-1 at times, Vegas literally just deployed it as I read this. Any system can work if you have the right personnel and they buy in. Its not my favorite, and it is far more suited to a veteran roster, but the Kings are so poor and heartless that they can't even respond to the most passive of systems.

Eichel ain't changing that mentality. He will flounder too, changing the tide is more than any one player can do.

Since they won't be dealing Kopitar or Doughty, and won't buy out Brown or Quick, the most likely scenario to offer real change and usher in a new, positive enviornment is the sheer number of high end prospects who have the opportunity to take ownership of a rudderless team.

Losing four for one is bad business at this point. You have referenced a post I made several times over the past couple of days in a tone I didn't appreciate. I had a couple of aggressive, lengthy posts that I ended up canceling before submitting, and in the end its for the best. You simply don't get it. The prospects themselves are irrelevant. Its not about the names, its about the suffering and the golden opportunity to change a losing culture that it earned. Nobody is going to succeed here, it has to change. I listed a bunch of prospects who shouldn't be moved yet. You assumed something that was never said. Its got nothing to do with their likliehood of "hitting" or "busting", its more nuanced than that.

The Kings have a real chance at building something new here. That is what needs to be maximized, and spending four assets for one player that won't make a tick of difference until the other kids are ready anyway will only deepen the hole.

 

[Herby]

If I were Perry I would have told him to F off.

I'm all for defending a teammate when he is cheap shotted but come on that was nonsense, Perry did nothing wrong.

 

[Mats26]

Aquire the talent, develop the chemistry, add the grit. It's the blueprint used for contenders. It just takes some time to go through the process.

 

[bland]

This is as far as I can get with my thinking.

Lombardi built a culture of compete, and brought in a coach (Sutter) who will win by attrition. Unfortunately, it has a short shelf life, and the solution was to try to bring in staff to make the players happy.

I don't know what "identity" they were going for. They want pace and skill. They have some skilled prospects to rebuild that, but what vets did Blake bring in?

I fully expect Blake at least to be let go if he misses the playoffs next season.

It's very possible the Kings won't get better until they clean house. I don't like calling for that, as many jobs get affected by this. All I do know is what they currently have is not working. Whether it's new staff, new approach, new execution, or new training regiment, players will continue to have decreased value from offense.

Bland touched on a key point where offense is not generated from the blueline. Shots not getting through, breakout passes, net attacking, etc.

Makar is an elite talent on Colorado, and he's among the best at it. But the entire team executes, which makes the team successful.

My line of thinking is that not only is keeping the kids best for the longterm, its best side effect will be that management will ultimately be changed sooner.

Same reason I don't want a new coach or a star player yet, it will just end buying more "hope" time for this losing culture.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Minnesota thought they won the game after 20 minutes.

 

[Lt Dan]

Kaprisov needs to go Pavel Bure here

 

[Herby]

Everybody plays the 1-3-1 at times, Vegas literally just deployed it as I read this. Any system can work if you have the right personnel and they buy in. Its not my favorite, and it is far more suited to a veteran roster, but the Kings are so poor and heartless that they can't even respond to the most passive of systems.

Eichel ain't changing that mentality. He will flounder too, changing the tide is more than any one player can do.

Since they won't be dealing Kopitar or Doughty, and won't buy out Brown or Quick, the most likely scenario to offer real change and usher in a new, positive enviornment is the sheer number of high end prospects who have the opportunity to take ownership of a rudderless team.

Losing four for one is bad business at this point. You have referenced a post I made several times over the past couple of days in a tone I didn't appreciate. I had a couple of aggressive, lengthy posts that I ended up canceling before submitting, and in the end its for the best. You simply don't get it. The prospects themselves are irrelevant. Its not about the names, its about the suffering and the golden opportunity to change a losing culture that it earned. Nobody is going to succeed here, it has to change. I listed a bunch of prospects who shouldn't be moved yet. You assumed something that was never said. Its got nothing to do with their likliehood of "hitting" or "busting", its more nuanced than that.

The Kings have a real chance at building something new here. That is what needs to be maximized, and spending four assets for one player that won't make a tick of difference until the other kids are ready anyway will only deepen the hole.

Sorry if the tone was poor, but 7 untradeable assets just seems way beyond a level of reality in a league where a lot of players change teams. I mean I love Brock Faber probably more than anyone on this board but he is not someone who is untouchable, he's just not that good a player. I mean by untouchable I presume that you mean if any potential superstar were offered to the Kings those 7 would be listed as unavailable. Just seems a bit ridiculous that if (insert superstar) were offered to LA you'd say "Nope, sorry Mikey Anderson, Alex Turcotte and Brock Faber are unavailable, goodluck"

Who of those 7 assets you listed are going to be the superstars or game changers needed to win in the modern NHL? If you want to tell me that Kaliyev is going to be Kucherov, Turcotte is going to be Toews, Faber is going to be Keith etc fine, you are entitled to your opinion. But these guys with the exception of Byfield all look like they are going to be complimentary players like Richards, Williams, Mitchell etc were on the Kings cup teams. And yes you certainly need players like that, but they are complimentary for a reason, they compliment superstars who are the backbone of almost any championship team in this sport.

Who is the other superstar or truly elite player besides Byfield?

We all assume Byfield will be one, and its fair to assume for a variety of historical reasons. But what if Byfield is say, Ryan Johanssen? That is certainly a possibility too. But either way, it's quite a lot of pressure when you have 1 potential star bullet in the chamber when all the teams seriously contending right now have multiple stars on their squads.

I am a history guy, it's what I majored in, I place a lot of value in it. I trust historical evidence that a #2 pick is almost always a star, so that, coupled with QB's play this year causes me to believe that. The historical evidence of prospect development also says that no one else is going to be at that level with the possible exception of Kaliyev, but thats a long shot, he probably slides in as a very good complimentary guy. I already listed the teams that have dominated the sport the last 15 years and their roster construction, the historical evidence says you need multiple superstars at multiple positions and usually taken within the top 1-5 picks to have success in this league. Why should anyone have faith the Kings rebuild which seems to focus on accumulating as many 2nd line centers as possible is going to work as well as those other teams who were all built around multiple superstars?

Why are the Kings going to be different from any of the other teams the last 20 years who tried and failed to rebuild this way, including the Kings themselves at the beginning of the century. The Kings had a bunch of potential secondary guys under DT, some turned out to be good secondary guys and some didn't (the success rate on secondary prospects is ok, not great). The Kings had Frolov, Cammalleri, Aulin, Lehoux, Grebeshkov, Boyle, Tambellini, Tukonen. No game breakers.

The Kings won SC's because between 2005 and 2008 they drafted 3 Hall of Fame players and then added to those Hall of Famers with great complimentary players. The complimentary players are useless in the grand scheme of things (winning SC's) if there are no superstars.

 

[bland]

Sorry if the tone was poor, but 7 untradeable assets just seems way beyond a level of reality in a league where a lot of players change teams. I mean I love Brock Faber probably more than anyone on this board but he is not someone who is untouchable, he's just not that good a player.

Who of those 7 assets you listed are going to be the superstars or game changers needed to win in the modern NHL? If you want to tell me that Kaliyev is going to be Kucherov, Turcotte is going to be Toews, Faber is going to be Keith etc fine, you are entitled to your opinion. But these guys with the exception of Byfield all look like they are going to be complimentary players like Richards, Williams, Mitchell etc were on the Kings cup teams. And yes you certainly need players like that, but they are complimentary for a reason, they compliment superstars who are the backbone of almost any championship team in this sport.

Who is the other superstar or truly elite player besides Byfield?

We all assume Byfield will be one, and its fair to assume for a variety of historical reasons. But what if Byfield is say, Ryan Johanssen? That is certainly a possibility too. But either way, it's quite a lot of pressure when you have 1 potential star bullet in the chamber when all the teams seriously contending right now have multiple stars on their squads.

I am a history guy, it's what I majored in, I place a lot of value in it. I trust historical evidence that a #2 pick is almost always a star, so that, coupled with QB's play this year causes me to believe that. I already listed the teams that have dominated the sport the last 15 years and their roster construction, the historical evidence says you need multiple superstars at multiple positions and usually taken within the top 1-5 picks to have success in this league. Why should anyone have faith the Kings rebuild which seems to focus on accumulating as many 2nd line centers as possible is going to work as well as those other teams who were all built around multiple superstars?

Just take a look around the league. Its littered with teams with a star or two who never amount to much. There are just as many contenders who feature three second lines as there are star fueled rosters. For heavens sake, the Kings won two Cups with just one star in Doughty and a boat load of B+ forwards.

I would be completely on board with a mega deal if the Kings were on the upswing, but they aren't they are still bottoming out and will continue to do so next year. No new additions are going to suddenly make the vets leaders, or get these wingers to win board battles. Nobody here is ready to care enough yet. Its the beach club Lombardi warned about, managed by the guys who defined that term.

Kill this era dead, give up that hope for a rebound, identify which kids are the ones that need to be kept, then make that mega deal when it is going to have a bumper affect on an already positive period of growth.

They don't know which of these kids are the ones to keep yet. Its at least a year too early for them to be fairly judged.

 

[Herby]

My line of thinking is that not only is keeping the kids best for the longterm, its best side effect will be that management will ultimately be changed sooner.

Same reason I don't want a new coach or a star player yet, it will just end buying more "hope" time for this losing culture.

It's easy to say "yet"

But there is no guarantee that a star player, much less a 24 year old one will be available in the next 5 years. These guys just don't hit the trade market quite often. The Kings are in a fortunate spot because they have the prospect depth and cap space to make the play.

The Kings add a superstar to pair with their likely one in QB for the next decade and also get the benefit of adding him to the tail end of the 11 & 8 era to maybe have a shot in the short term too, all while still having an insane amount secondary talent under 23. Buffalo adds some quality secondary pieces that they can add to Dahlin and whatever superstars in the next 3-4 years with their likely multiple top 3 picks as they are in blow up mode. That is why almost everyone is talking about Eichel to LA, it makes sense for everyone.

 

[Herby]

Just take a look around the league. Its littered with teams with a star or two who never amount to much. There are just as many contenders who feature three second lines as there are star fueled rosters. For heavens sake, the Kings won two Cups with just one star in Doughty and a boat load of B+ forwards.

I would be completely on board with a mega deal if the Kings were on the upswing, but they aren't they are still bottoming out and will continue to do so next year. No new additions are going to suddenly make the vets leaders, or get these wingers to win board battles. Nobody here is ready to care enough yet. Its the beach club Lombardi warned about, managed by the guys who defined that term.

Kill this era dead, give up that hope for a rebound, identify which kids are the ones that need to be kept, then make that mega deal when it is going to have a bumper affect on an already positive period of growth.

They don't know which of these kids are the ones to keep yet. Its at least a year too early for them to be fairly judged.

Ofcourse not every star wins the SC, there is only 1 SC winner every year. But the vast majority of teams who have won the SC have had multiple Hall of Fame players, so who are the Kings multiple Hall of Fame players as of now?

And I'm fine with bottoming out too. I've said it a million times, one or the other. Trade for the superstar or bottom out and hopefully draft the superstars. Either way the evidence clearly says you have to get more elite high end talent than what the Kings have now. So staying the course and picking 8th-15th next season would be the absolute worst thing.

As for the bolded part, Anze Kopitar will be in the Hall of Fame, he was one of the best if not the best two-way player in the league from basically the second he came in as a teenager up until about now where he maybe is showing signs of slowing down. Calling Anze Kopitar and Jonathan Quick B+ players is quite frankly a laughable take and I can't believe any Kings fan would say it.

 

[kingsholygrail]

lol 4 unanswered. Wild thought they already won.

 

[tomd]

Just take a look around the league. Its littered with teams with a star or two who never amount to much. There are just as many contenders who feature three second lines as there are star fueled rosters. For heavens sake, the Kings won two Cups with just one star in Doughty and a boat load of B+ forwards.

I would be completely on board with a mega deal if the Kings were on the upswing, but they aren't they are still bottoming out and will continue to do so next year. No new additions are going to suddenly make the vets leaders, or get these wingers to win board battles. Nobody here is ready to care enough yet. Its the beach club Lombardi warned about, managed by the guys who defined that term.

Kill this era dead, give up that hope for a rebound, identify which kids are the ones that need to be kept, then make that mega deal when it is going to have a bumper affect on an already positive period of growth.

They don't know which of these kids are the ones to keep yet. Its at least a year too early for them to be fairly judged.

I'll throw in my $0.02.

What is happening to the organization right now was totally predictable 2.5 years ago. Did anyone really think that 11/8/23/32 were going to accept a rebuild and play "mentor" for the balance of their contracts? It was unrealistic from day one!

The ONLY way it would have worked is if the 17-19 draft choices had exceeded expectations and been contributing to the NHL roster this past year. Vilardi needed to be a solid 2c. Kupari needed to be a top 6 winger. Turcotte needed to be in the top 6 this year somewhere. Had those 3 players been "home run" picks the Kings could have considered the rebuild ahead of schedule and they would have been a much more competitive team. It would have even been a added bonus if the 2020 #2 pick had contributed at the NHL level like Stutzle or Drysdale did. As it stands, however, Vilardi showed talent but his skating is a real issue at the NHL level. Kupari isn't even close to being a top 6 forward. Turcotte...who knows? Byfield is still too young and even counting on him to contribute next year is risky.

It's too late to trade 11 or 8. It's just not going to happen this year or next if ever. So by necessity the team needs to take an accelerated approach. It is what it is.

 

[Reclamation Project]

Oh my god what a save by Pietrangelo! GOOD LORD!!!

 

[kingsfan28]

Minnesota thought they won the game after 20 minutes.

Folino had the chance to make it 3-0 and literally whiffed on a breakaway. vegas scored 4 straight.

 

[ScoreZeGoals]

Umm, that should be a goal. His entire glove is in the net

 

[kingsholygrail]

Kaprizov has been held to 1pt this series.

 

[KINGS17]

I would prefer if Blake were fired tomorrow and replaced by someone who has never spent a single second in this organization.

But the reality is, that isn't going to happen with his buddy Luc having complete control of the organization. So yes I would prefer if Blake made a move for the 24 year old superstar, since its extremely unlikely this chance will present itself again in the near future, either for Blake or for his potential replacement.

But I'm sure he'll once again add another future 2nd line center in the draft, and stick with his coach and his stupid defensive system that hasn't been relevant in this league for a decade.

There's an easy fix for this. Fire Robitaille first.

 

[Herby]

I'll throw in my $0.02.

What is happening to the organization right now was totally predictable 2.5 years ago. Did anyone really think that 11/8/23/32 were going to accept a rebuild and play "mentor" for the balance of their contracts? It was unrealistic from day one!

The ONLY way it would have worked is if the 17-19 draft choices had exceeded expectations and been contributing to the NHL roster this past year. Vilardi needed to be a solid 2c. Kupari needed to be a top 6 winger. Turcotte needed to be in the top 6 this year somewhere. Had those 3 players been "home run" picks the Kings could have considered the rebuild ahead of schedule and they would have been a much more competitive team. It would have even been a added bonus if the 2020 #2 pick had contributed at the NHL level like Stutzle or Drysdale did. As it stands, however, Vilardi showed talent but his skating is a real issue at the NHL level. Kupari isn't even close to being a top 6 forward. Turcotte...who knows? Byfield is still too young and even counting on him to contribute next year is risky.

It's too late to trade 11 or 8. It's just not going to happen this year or next if ever. So by necessity the team needs to take an accelerated approach. It is what it is.

For the most part, guys who are playing well in the NHL as teenagers are elite high end players and many of them continue on to be stars in the league. You can't hold it against our guys who aren't at that level for not being in the NHL as teenagers. It's very unlikely that any of Vilardi, Turcotte and Kupari are going to be homerun star picks, as you said we'd have seen more by now. How do we know this, because there are decent amount of guys their age who are kind of showing it already.

Look at the list I posted in the other thread with stars from Pittsburgh, LA, Chicago, Tampa, Washington. You can add the Avs right now to that list.

What are the 2 things that stand out about the vast majority of the players on that list?

Most of them were top 5 picks and most of them were good to great players in the NHL as teenagers. That is where you find these types of players and that is the age that they begin to make their marks in the league. The Kings rebuild, for all its amazing depth has 1 player with a realistic chance to be of the caliber of the guys on that list.

 

[Schmooley]

Could see the Leafs going after Doughty if they get bounced from the playoffs early again.

 

[KINGS17]

If I were Perry I would have told him to F off.

I'm all for defending a teammate when he is cheap shotted but come on that was nonsense, Perry did nothing wrong.

Yeah, that was ridiculous.

 

[KINGS17]

Could see the Leafs going after Doughty if they get bounced from the playoffs early again.

They would be doing the Kings a favor if they did go after Doughty. The Leafs still have some good young assets in Robertson, Sandin, Liljegren, and Amirov which could benefit the Kings and fit right into Byfield's age group. Having a core of good players approximately the same age was key for the Kings in 2012. That 2012 team had three first round picks from the 2003 draft in Brown, Carter, and Richards.

 

[tomd]

For the most part, guys who are playing well in the NHL as teenagers are elite high end players and many of them continue on to be stars in the league. You can't hold it against our guys who aren't at that level for not being in the NHL as teenagers. It's very unlikely that any of Vilardi, Turcotte and Kupari are going to be homerun star picks, as you said we'd have seen more by now. How do we know this, because there are decent amount of guys their age who are kind of showing it already.

Look at the list I posted in the other thread with stars from Pittsburgh, LA, Chicago, Tampa, Washington. You can add the Avs right now to that list.

What are the 2 things that stand out about the vast majority of the players on that list?

Most of them were top 5 picks and most of them were good to great players in the NHL as teenagers. That is where you find these types of players and that is the age that they begin to make their marks in the league. The Kings rebuild, for all its amazing depth has 1 player with a realistic chance to be of the caliber of the guys on that list.

Agree 100% with you. I certainly didn't intend to blame or criticize the players I mentioned although this is a cautionary tale about overrating prospects. There were posters on this board putting Kupari on the top line at the beginning of the 19-20 season! The point was (and I think you got it) that all these guys would have needed to be home run picks for this "rebuild" to have any chance of success in the 3 year timeframe Blake allowed for it. That didn't happen and it should never have been expected to.

 

[KopitarFAN]

A deal sending Dewey to Toronto would almost certainly bring back Nylander, they aren't in a position to absorb $11M, unless they make some huge 3-team deal where the draft picks & young players come to LA, Dewey goes to Toronto and Nylander to Team X.