Around the League 2018-2019 Part 2- Everyone is having fun except us

[crassbonanza]

He;s not a first pairing Dman, he's a solid 3rd line pairing Dman, along the lines of Roman Polak, etc, as far as your eye test assesment, you are hyperfocusing on his mistakes. First of all, show me a defenseman that DOESNT struggle with a heavy forecheck? And chipping the puck to an empty area while being pressured? That's kinda what you are supposed to do. Part of that is the forwards don't recognize that, and go to the empty area, to help out, they stand there and watch.

Again, under pressure he typically reverts to a safe play.....ummm....yea, again, kinda what you are taught.

Just reinforcing my statement before as true.

Come on man. Forbort has to be the worst puck handling Kings defenseman I have seen in a decade. Potentially worse than Greene/Scuds. Go watch any game and count how many of his turnovers lead to prolonged time in the Dzone or ending any Ozone threat because he is incapable of making a tape to tape pass. Plenty of defensemen are able to do more than Forbort with a heavy forecheck, it is kind of critical in the modern game. As for the offensive zone, you don't want your point man dumping the puck to an empty area the moment someone skates at him, that is not at all what you are supposed to do. Forbort may be able to provide value as a sheltered 3rd pairing Dman, but the analytics, eye test and results all show that he is a sub par defenseman currently. He is 20th in league among defensemen with 58 giveaways, which is atrocious once you realize that he is not a puck moving defenseman so his opportunities for a giveaway are much lower. He honestly might be the worst puck handling dman in the entire league right now.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Come on man. Forbort has to be the worst puck handling Kings defenseman I have seen in a decade. Potentially worse than Greene/Scuds. Go watch any game and count how many of his turnovers lead to prolonged time in the Dzone or ending any Ozone threat because he is incapable of making a tape to tape pass. Plenty of defensemen are able to do more than Forbort with a heavy forecheck, it is kind of critical in the modern game. As for the offensive zone, you don't want your point man dumping the puck to an empty area the moment someone skates at him, that is not at all what you are supposed to do. Forbort may be able to provide value as a sheltered 3rd pairing Dman, but the analytics, eye test and results all show that he is a sub par defenseman currently. He is 20th in league among defensemen with 58 giveaways, which is atrocious once you realize that he is not a puck moving defenseman so his opportunities for a giveaway are much lower. He honestly might be the worst puck handling dman in the entire league right now.

Again, hyperfocusing on mistakes,

First, he's not a 1st pairing Dman,
Second, you literally complained about him doing things, that every D is taught to do, I don't know what to tell you on that, every D is taught to make the SAFE play on he point when pressured, and EVERY D has issues with a heavy forecheck...
Third, let's do this, show some clips, highlighting what you think is a Forbort error, giveway etc, and let's analyze it, I'm game for that...I don't put much stock in giveway or takeaway numbers as they are often scored incorrectly, very bias scoring ways, and typically it will take two for something bad to happen, case in point, MacDermid's pass that Carter should have had that led to a goal a few weeks ago, everyone is saying that is MacDermid's giveaway and that's not even close, he made the right play and Carter wasn't ready.

 

[BigKing]

With the puck on their stick, there is no difference between MacDermid and Forbort right now.

I've defended Forbort on here before in previous seasons but, seriously, he is beyond awful this season. He is playing well when you don't notice him: he is noticeable almost every shift this year.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Forbort is also awful when the puck isn't on his stick, like clearing out the front of the net. How often have we seen him get overpowered by a guy that he's supposed to cover? Attacking forecheckers easily go after him because he's an easy target. He's not very strong for his size and gets outmuscled and outhustled along the boards and in front of his own net. If he's not doing his job defensively, then he's useless. When he was 24, there was still hope and he showed some promise as a potential Scuderi type defenseman. Two years later, he's gotten far worse and looks as bad as the 37-year-old version of Scuderi who was a human pylon.

 

[crassbonanza]

Again, hyperfocusing on mistakes,

First, he's not a 1st pairing Dman,
Second, you literally complained about him doing things, that every D is taught to do, I don't know what to tell you on that, every D is taught to make the SAFE play on he point when pressured, and EVERY D has issues with a heavy forecheck...
Third, let's do this, show some clips, highlighting what you think is a Forbort error, giveway etc, and let's analyze it, I'm game for that...I don't put much stock in giveway or takeaway numbers as they are often scored incorrectly, very bias scoring ways, and typically it will take two for something bad to happen, case in point, MacDermid's pass that Carter should have had that led to a goal a few weeks ago, everyone is saying that is MacDermid's giveaway and that's not even close, he made the right play and Carter wasn't ready.

I agree he is not a first pairing defenseman.
This is the NHL, if he is incapable of moving the puck when pressured maybe he shouldn't be playing. Damn near every other defenseman in the league can make a pass to his partner or another teammate when they are slightly pressured, Forbort seems to panic and revert to the safe play way too early.
I get not liking turnover stat because they can be scored incorrectly, but where there is smoke there is fire. We can watch him turning the puck over constantly and the numbers back that up. The only counter argument you seem to be able to provide is that it is instead his teammates fault.

Let's recap:
Near the top of the league in giveaways despite obviously not being the puck handling dman on his pairing.
Worst possession numbers on the team among blue liners.
Atrocious goal ratio.
Eye test is pretty clear that he struggles moving the puck.

 

[lumbergh]

Again, hyperfocusing on mistakes,

First, he's not a 1st pairing Dman,
Second, you literally complained about him doing things, that every D is taught to do, I don't know what to tell you on that, every D is taught to make the SAFE play on he point when pressured, and EVERY D has issues with a heavy forecheck...
Third, let's do this, show some clips, highlighting what you think is a Forbort error, giveway etc, and let's analyze it, I'm game for that...I don't put much stock in giveway or takeaway numbers as they are often scored incorrectly, very bias scoring ways, and typically it will take two for something bad to happen, case in point, MacDermid's pass that Carter should have had that led to a goal a few weeks ago, everyone is saying that is MacDermid's giveaway and that's not even close, he made the right play and Carter wasn't ready.

You're still ignoring the analytics. It's clear. It's been clear for years. Don't make somebody find some random YouTube video to nitpick. This is not anecdotal. The low quality of his play is borne out in the numbers. We're talking thousands of minutes on the ice.

Year after year Forbort has brought down Doughty's performance. It's a downright shame that the best defenseman ever on the Kings is paired with a giant boat anchor. Who has Doughty played well with? Muzzin and McNabb. You should look up the numbers yourself. It's hard to ignore.

 

[lumbergh]

With the puck on their stick, there is no difference between MacDermid and Forbort right now.

I've defended Forbort on here before in previous seasons but, seriously, he is beyond awful this season. He is playing well when you don't notice him: he is noticeable almost every shift this year.

It's not just this season. It's just extra noticeable this year because Drew Doughty has also been terrible. In years past you haven't noticed as much because Doughty is capable of covering up a lot of deficiencies.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

I agree he is not a first pairing defenseman.
This is the NHL, if he is incapable of moving the puck when pressured maybe he shouldn't be playing. Damn near every other defenseman in the league can make a pass to his partner or another teammate when they are slightly pressured, Forbort seems to panic and revert to the safe play way too early.
I get not liking turnover stat because they can be scored incorrectly, but where there is smoke there is fire. We can watch him turning the puck over constantly and the numbers back that up. The only counter argument you seem to be able to provide is that it is instead his teammates fault.

Let's recap:
Near the top of the league in giveaways despite obviously not being the puck handling dman on his pairing.
Worst possession numbers on the team among blue liners.
Atrocious goal ratio.
Eye test is pretty clear that he struggles moving the puck.

Everyone on the team has atrocious goal ratio, cmonman, seriously?
Puck possession....seriously? That's how you are judging Dman?
Top of the league in giveaways means less than nothing when you can't get TWO scorers to agree on what is a giveaway and what is not a giveaway, again, be honest.

Eye test, Dunno what to tell you, adjust your eyes, adjust your expectations, quit hyperfocusing on the turnover that he made once in the period and focus on the 13 other passes that he completed, yes, I know, the argument to that is (BUT, he's in the NHL he should be able to make those passes) well duh, that's why..HE DOES make them....

Near the top of the league in givewaways? Really?

Forbort has 69 giveaways, let's see who has more?

Drew Doughty, 93, let me guess, Forbort is to blame?

Jake Muzzin, 97
Brent Burns, 108
Mike Matheson, 114

That is just among D men,

Again, stop being hyperfocused.....be honest in your evaluation, no, he's not a #1 dman, he's a solid 3rd pairing Dman, accept him for what he is, not what you expect him to be....

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

You're still ignoring the analytics. It's clear. It's been clear for years. Don't make somebody find some random YouTube video to nitpick. This is not anecdotal. The low quality of his play is borne out in the numbers. We're talking thousands of minutes on the ice.

Year after year Forbort has brought down Doughty's performance. It's a downright shame that the best defenseman ever on the Kings is paired with a giant boat anchor. Who has Doughty played well with? Muzzin and McNabb. You should look up the numbers yourself. It's hard to ignore.

LOL Analytics, don't put much stock in them, see how well they are working out for FLA and Arizona?

 

[lumbergh]

Let's just ignore this year and look at 2015-2018 (numbers are still bad this year, but every King's numbers suck this year). Drew Doughty has played with three defensemen over those three seasons, sharing over 1000 minutes at 5 vs. 5. Those three are, in order of time on ice together, Derek Forbort at 1988, Brayden McNabb at 1292, and Jake Muzzin at 1021.

Numbers for Doughty with and without:

Forbort: CF% down 4.1%, FF% down 3.2%, SF% down 3.0%, GF% down 2.7%
McNabb: CF% up 5.0%, FF% up 6.3%, SF% up 4.2%, GF% up 5.3%
Muzzin: CF% up 2.8%, FF% up 1.4%, SF% up 1.4%, GF% up 2.2%

There's no getting around the fact that Forbort has not been a good partner for Doughty. Crassbonanza and others are just giving you the reasons why, from an eye test point of view.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Let's just ignore this year and look at 2015-2018 (numbers are still bad this year, but every King's numbers suck this year). Drew Doughty has played with three defensemen over those three seasons, sharing over 1000 minutes at 5 vs. 5. Those three are, in order of time on ice together, Derek Forbort at 1988, Brayden McNabb at 1292, and Jake Muzzin at 1021.

Numbers for Doughty with and without:

Forbort: CF% down 4.1%, FF% down 3.2%, SF% down 3.0%, GF% down 2.7%
McNabb: CF% up 5.0%, FF% up 6.3%, SF% up 4.2%, GF% up 5.3%
Muzzin: CF% up 2.8%, FF% up 1.4%, SF% up 1.4%, GF% up 2.2%

There's no getting around the fact that Forbort has not been a good partner for Doughty. Crassbonanza and others are just giving you the reasons why, from an eye test point of view.

Wait, what is your argument that Forbort is not a #1 pairing D, and not good for Doughty?

Or that Forbort sucks and shouldn't in the NHL?

Because unless I am wrong, everyone else is arguing the 2nd.....

 

[fivehole32]

I say bring back McNabb and McBane so we can have the McClusterf*** twins again.

 

[Herby]

On Forbort, this is a rare time on a messageboard where 1 person has an opinion that is completely different than literally everyone else's.

I won't say he isn't an NHL caliber player since he isn't nearly as terrible as Phaneuf. But he is basically a guy who should be a below average bottom pairing defender, if he's anything more than that than you probably have serious issues. Which looking at the standings proves the Kings do.

 

[lumbergh]

Wait, what is your argument that Forbort is not a #1 pairing D, and not good for Doughty?

Or that Forbort sucks and shouldn't in the NHL?

Because unless I am wrong, everyone else is arguing the 2nd.....

My point is that Forbort is not a good defenseman. The numbers show it. When put up against two other defensemen, his performance pales in comparison. Because he has been Doughty's primary partner for the entire time he's been playing, those are the only data available.

We could pull up the same numbers for all defensemen on the Kings, but then I can make some argument that playing with Doughty inflates his stats. The WOWY numbers are easy to interpret.

A number of posters have been pointing out Forbort's deficiencies for years now. It's not a new thing, but three years in a row.

 

[kingsholygrail]

Kings D quickly became a garbage heap. Even before the Muzzin trade, it was Doughty, Muzzin, Martinez + dingleberries.
Have hopes for Wagner and Roy.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

On Forbort, this is a rare time on a messageboard where 1 person has an opinion that is completely different than literally everyone else's.

I won't say he isn't an NHL caliber player since he isn't nearly as terrible as Phaneuf. But he is basically a guy who should be a below average bottom pairing defender, if he's anything more than that than you probably have serious issues. Which looking at the standings proves the Kings do.

Are you new? LOL apparently that is all the time when it comes to be,

But yes, I have a completely different view, could be a lot of reasons, I have a completely different view on Toffoli as well,

I don't hyperfocus on one play or one mistake, I don't think nor try to compare him to other 1st or 2nd pairing D, he is what he is, and that's what he's gonna be. Yes, he will have giveaways that just wanna go oommphh....show me a dman that hasn't done that, hell Doughty is just as bad this year, if not worse.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

My point is that Forbort is not a good defenseman. The numbers show it. When put up against two other defensemen, his performance pales in comparison. Because he has been Doughty's primary partner for the entire time he's been playing, those are the only data available.

We could pull up the same numbers for all defensemen on the Kings, but then I can make some argument that playing with Doughty inflates his stats. The WOWY numbers are easy to interpret.

A number of posters have been pointing out Forbort's deficiencies for years now. It's not a new thing, but three years in a row.

It doesn't mean anything when the number of posters comparison is to Muzzin, Doughty, and not, Polak, Oleksiak, Benn, etc.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Kings D quickly became a garbage heap. Even before the Muzzin trade, it was Doughty, Muzzin, Martinez + dingleberries.
Have hopes for Wagner and Roy.

I like Wagner more than Roy, he's more mobile, better passing, I like Roy's poise, and his positioning, I think his compete needs to get up to par, but he's gonna be one of those D where if he plays well, you won't notice him at all.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

The numbers and a slew of eyeballs have been pointing out the flaws of a player all season long, and there is that one person who goes against the grain and thinks only one mistake is being pointed out. Who is the one sounding biased here?

 

[lumbergh]

It doesn't mean anything when the number of posters comparison is to Muzzin, Doughty, and not, Polak, Oleksiak, Benn, etc.

What does it mean when the comparison is to Brayden McNabb?

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

What does it mean when the comparison is to Brayden McNabb?

And? McNabb is playing 3rd line minutes as the #5 D in Vegas.....probably where he should be slotted.....correct?

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

The numbers and a slew of eyeballs have been pointing out the flaws of a player all season long, and there is that one person who goes against the grain and thinks only one mistake is being pointed out. Who is the one sounding biased here?

At least get what I said right, it's not just one mistake, no one said it is, but during the course of the game, you are going to hyperfocus on that ONE mistake, hell let's call it TWO mistakes a period....and not focus on the 12 GOOD plays a period....and think that is a rational assessment of the player

 

[lumbergh]

And? McNabb is playing 3rd line minutes as the #5 D in Vegas.....probably where he should be slotted.....correct?

So the numbers say that Forbort is not nearly as good as a #5 D in Vegas.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

So the numbers say that Forbort is not nearly as good as a #5 D in Vegas.

No they don't....cmon man, again, be honest....

Different teams, different systems, different circumstances,

Again, tell me how well analytics is playing out in Arizona and Florida, please.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

So the numbers say that Forbort is not nearly as good as a #5 D in Vegas.

That;s like saying Michael Backlund, best defensive center in the game right now,

Why? Because hes a plus 33.....