Around the League 20 - Well.... we're waiting

[tarheelhockey]

Also, Dundon bought the team early in 2018. Seattle wasn't officially voted on until the end of 2018. I think Seattle would have jumped on purchasing a relocation first.

If any single thing (other than Dundon) would have kept the worst from happening, it would have been the expansion plan.

Expansion is one of the biggest “dividends” the league can give to the owners. Relocations undermine expansion on multiple levels, increasing the supply of franchises while also reducing the number of potential buyers/landing spots. That cuts into the dividend, big time.

The expansion wheels were already in motion, so Bettman’s priority would have been to keep the franchise in place either by hook (somehow finding a non-expansion bidder to keep them local) or by crook (NHL takeover). Either way, they’d still be in Raleigh right now.

The problem would be, either of those scenarios give us cash-poor ownership and a very depressing timeline. Dundon didn’t just buy the franchise, he re-invigorated it. The fans are back, revenue is flowing, Topgolf money is giving us a better hockey team, the CA is investing in PNC arena again. Off-brand ownership wouldn’t have turned anything around. We’d still be scraping by on empty seats and a sense of dread.

Come 2022 or so, when expansion was all wrapped up, the picture would have been very different. We’d be on borrowed time unless a miracle buyer came out of the woodwork.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

In any case, we weren't literally going to become Nordiques 2.0 because the NHL has no serious interest in QC. That's where a lot of the rabble-rousers were completely off-base. They were cheerleading for us to fail so they could have their hearts broken all over again when the team relocated to Kansas City or whatever.

So what do you say to the fact that Karmanos was talking with Quebecor? Or that there was a gag order in the media until negotiations fell through, which then spawned the famous "We're never moving to Quebec!" article. Was Karmanos trying to make that happen and the League told him "No"?

Expansion is one of the biggest “dividends” the league can give to the owners. Relocations undermine expansion on multiple levels, increasing the supply of franchises while also reducing the number of potential buyers/landing spots. That cuts into the dividend, big time.

That plus the fact relocation cuts into the League's ability to control where teams go is why the League fought tooth and nail to save the Coyotes. Something the ant-Bettman crowd which wrote it off as "hates Canada!!" didn't understand or even pretend to be open toward.

 

[AD Skinner]

1. The league doesn’t want a team there. We’d have had more chance at Atlanta 3.0 then QC at 2.0.

Yeah this seems super evident to me. They want to have it in their pocket to tempt fans and threaten owners who don't have their act together, but they don't actually want to have a team there

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

The other thing to consider: the Jets owner is worth nearly 40 billion dollars. Quebecor doesn't have near that kind of quid, and that's putting it mildly.

To put in perspective, the wealthiest NFL owner is the Panthers David Tepper, worth around 12 billion. The owner of the freaking Winnipeg Jets is 3 times as wealthy as the wealthiest owner in the NFL. That's insane. Hard to say no when he wants in.

 

[tarheelhockey]

So what do you say to the fact that Karmanos was talking with Quebecor? Or that there was a gag order in the media until negotiations fell through, which then spawned the famous "We're never moving to Quebec!" article. Was Karmanos trying to make that happen and the League told him "No"?

This is one of the things I’m referring to when I say, the vultures were closer to the truth than any of us could have known at the time.

That article, the revelation that Karmanos actually had talked to Quebecor, was like the sound of a bullet. Which is to say, you don’t hear it until it’s already passed by.

I still don’t think they’d have pulled it off. An arrangement between PK and Quebecor has vibes of the 1980s NHL where the league approved pretty much any sales agreement the owners came up with. That’s how we ended up with Blues-to-Saskatoon, and this wouldn’t be far off a 2020s version of that.

 

[bleedgreen]

Bingo.

We all knew things were in dire straits for us. There was very real possibility that the team was gone from NC and there was literally nothing we could do about it. Where everyone across the hockey media circles showed their collective asses was the sheer joy they took in the possibility that the Canes were going to end up in Quebec "where they belonged". And this was after seeing comments on literally every. f***ing. article. about the Canes for 20 years where multiple top voted comments were "move back to Hartford" or "bring back the Whale", it just has always rubbed me the wrong way that the hockey community has so much vitriol and hatred for teams in non-traditional markets.

So when people wonder why I find so, so, so much pleasure in watching many of these same people lose their f***ing minds every year when we break out the Whalers jerseys for a home game or two because of how much it disrespects the Whale... Yeah, f*** 'em all. 25 years of dealing with that constant barrage of bullshit from the hockey community has left me with zero f***s to give about preserving their precious hockey heritage.

And you know what, let the Avs wear the Nordique throwbacks as well. Maybe floss their asscracks with it during intermission. I'd be totally fine with that.

Really? Knock it off.

 

[cptjeff]

The other thing to consider: the Jets owner is worth nearly 40 billion dollars. Quebecor doesn't have near that kind of quid, and that's putting it mildly.

To put in perspective, the wealthiest NFL owner is the Panthers David Tepper, worth around 12 billion. The owner of the freaking Winnipeg Jets is 3 times as wealthy as the wealthiest owner in the NFL. That's insane. Hard to say no when he wants in.

Are you telling me that the 3rd Baron Thomson of Fleet has some money to his name? Huh.

 

[HisIceness]

People can have their opinions on Bettman being "anti-Canada" or whatever, and maybe they have a point but he's a lawyer for the owners. He does what they ask of him, yes? Why don't the owners get more flack for keeping the Predators in Nashville, or the Coyotes not relocating to Hamilton, or the Jets/Nordiques /Whalers leaving their towns? Don't they have a vote on this? Bettman can't just dictate which cities get to keep/gain teams and which cities have to "surrender" their teams. Because if that was the case, the Devils would have relocated to Nashville in 1995, and in all liklihood, Houston would have a franchise by now, somehow someway. And by the way, didn't Bettman help the Oilers out at the 11th hour before Les Alexander moved them to, Houston?

I get Canadians weren't happy when the Nordiques/Jets left. But they were in trouble even before Bettman got the job as commissioner. And even now, there's a thread on the BoH board that admits the Jets don't make a lot of money unless they go deep into the playoffs. They do have the richest Canadian financially backing them but on their own, they play in the smallest building in the league and they play in a city that has a metro population smaller than that of Columbia, SC. Do they even get a return of the Jets if not for that guy? Seems unlikely.

Would Quebec City add anything to the league?. Their metro population is barely larger than that of Winnipegs. They do have a shiny new arena w/ adequate seating capacity but they don't have a filthy rich guy backing them either. If they did, I'm sure they would have been given more consideration.

People were ranting and raving about Las Vegas getting a franchise, and I can admit I was skeptical myself but they've not only turned into a great success, they also opened the doors to a new market that watches the league on NBC. And, now everyone wants in on Las Vegas and the NHL can claim they were the first to do so. Seattle will likely open some doors to new TV ratings viewership and is close enough to Portland to perhaps grab a small share of that market. Houston (should they ever get a franchise) would do the same with their 6million living there.

The "growing the game" segment may anger some, but the NHL absolutely has to grow the game to even survive. You can't rely on only Canadian teenagers to play the game and become potential NHL prospects now. With the expenses and more sports options now, staying the course is not an option. You need the Seth Jones (Texas), Auston Matthews (Arizona), and Jack Hughes (Florida) kids to play too, and maybe market them a little better but that's another conversation.

But a cable guy is a valid and completely impeccable source guys.

Damn did I ever hate the completely biased cesspool that was BoH from basically a year after the 05 lockout. First the Nashville rumors and damn near sale to the BlackBerry jackass, then Phoenix, then the Atlanta situation. Sad thing is a lot of the supposed insiders there when any of those rumors or the rumors around either us or the Panthers would pop up were never held to any kind of real scrutiny.

Crazy that just 3 years after Balsillie tried to move the Predators out of Nashville, BlackBerry was being defeated by Googles Android. His net worth appears to be somewhere around $800 million now, $300million shy of what the Canes were sold for 2 years ago.

Also, Nashville has become quite the success story and the league has benefitted from it. They're a fun road trip for fans and they got the Music stars to support them, and players like going/living there. I look forward to a Tennessee kid becoming a Seth Jones or Jack Hughes type one day.

To be fair, in retrospect we really were close to a crisis moment with Karmanos.

Imagine a timeline where Tom Dundon is too busy scamming car buyers to consider buying this franchise. I'm really not sure what the next step would have been after that, but it would have been an ugly chapter even in the best case scenario. Maybe we cobble together a local ownership group which keeps us alive on a shoestring budget. Maybe not. Either way, by 2020 we'd be staring down the barrel of relocation.

This doesn't justify all the B.S. that was thrown around back then, by people who couldn't possibly have known the inside of Karmanos' finances. But they weren't entirely wrong about us being on the knife's edge for a few years. They were just dumb enough to buy into speculative reasoning about it.

You're not wrong here. I'm just glad PK didn't get impatient and sell off when things started going downhill.

Wasn't there another failed bid right before that? The lazy river guy? It certainly could have gone any number of directions, but not impossible they could have found another crazy rich Texan.

Chuck Greenberg, who either didn't have the dough or didn't have the minority ownership backers to help him out. Or PK straight up disliked him, not sure.

The other thing to consider: the Jets owner is worth nearly 40 billion dollars. Quebecor doesn't have near that kind of quid, and that's putting it mildly.

To put in perspective, the wealthiest NFL owner is the Panthers David Tepper, worth around 12 billion. The owner of the freaking Winnipeg Jets is 3 times as wealthy as the wealthiest owner in the NFL. That's insane. Hard to say no when he wants in.

Now that's something I did not know. Wow.

 

[Joe McGrath]

People that blame Bettman for any of the old WHA teams moving are so stupid it’s ridiculous. The NHL owners never wanted those teams but got blackmailed into taking them to get Gretzky. Jeremy Jacobs despised the existence of the Whalers. He wasn’t fond of the Nordiques either.

 

[Lempo]

A man not fond of whalers nor dicks assumably has little time for the whole Melville scene.

(dad of two, I'm allowed)

 

[hblueridgegal]

If this thing come to fruition, these comments makes me wonder if the lack of enthusiasm will affect the effort and outcomes? Would seem that some may be tempted to phone it in and get out of dodge ASAP.

 

[Lempo]

#get out earlier for safety&lafreniere

 

[A Star is Burns]

I don't doubt that there are a lot of them that are very concerned. 75% that absolutely don't want to come back sounds high, but they'd know better than me. Hockey culture can be dumb sometimes, and if they aren't at least reasonably comfortable with the setup, hopefully they voice that and vote that. But it sounds like they won't. I get that it's also a tough position when you are talking about your own future financial viability and that of the league. It's a tough situation to be in.

 

[bleedgreen]

I’m not convinced they don’t want to come back because of Covid. Many probably are in summer mode with their lives and families and just don’t want to.

 

[MrazeksVengeance]

People can hate Bettman all they want, but he made the NHL bigger, richer, and more accessible.

On the topic of Hartford. A small city that is in the vicinity of New York, New Jersey, and Boston. Yup, that's gonna work. Last time I checked they were the 4th biggest city in their state.

On the topic of Quebec.

They are French Canadiens. They are practically begging me to joke about them.

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

People can hate Bettman all they want, but he made the NHL bigger, richer, and more accessible.

On the topic of Hartford. A small city that is in the vicinity of New York, New Jersey, and Boston. Yup, that's gonna work. Last time I checked they were the 4th biggest city in their state.

On the topic of Quebec.

They are French Canadiens. They are practically begging me to joke about them.

Well, an argument in favor of Hartford would be similar to the OKC argument in the NBA. A small market that is also the only pro-sports game in town, with the entire state supporting you. The issue in Hartford isn't the size of the market, though, but rather that much of the wealth that it used to have has moved away from there and towards lower-tax states, particularly Florida, North Carolina, and Texas. That's the real reason why a Whalers return is difficult, if not impossible.

 

[MrazeksVengeance]

Well, an argument in favor of Hartford would be similar to the OKC argument in the NBA. A small market that is also the only pro-sports game in town, with the entire state supporting you. The issue in Hartford isn't the size of the market, though, but rather that much of the wealth that it used to have has moved away from there and towards lower-tax states, particularly Florida, North Carolina, and Texas. That's the real reason why a Whalers return is difficult, if not impossible.

Well, you confirmed what I thought with different facts, so I'm just gonna happily agree.

 

[Chrispy]

People can hate Bettman all they want, but he made the NHL bigger, richer, and more accessible.

On the topic of Hartford. A small city that is in the vicinity of New York, New Jersey, and Boston. Yup, that's gonna work. Last time I checked they were the 4th biggest city in their state.

As someone who grew up in CT and goes back (when not forbidden by ******* quarantine) I would have lost that bet on Hartford.
2 things I learned today that stunned me:
1) Stamford is now the #2 city in CT
2) Cary is bigger than every city in CT.

 

[My Special Purpose]

1. The league doesn’t want a team there. We’d have had more chance at Atlanta 3.0 then QC at 2.0.

That's the thing, right there. If a team is going to relocate, there has to be somewhere to relocate it *to*. The last time a team decided it was moving without knowing where it was going was ... well, 1997 and the Hartford Whalers.

I'd say the possibility of us moving to Quebec never rated above a "1" from me. I never even considered it a real thing. For one, the NHL *can't* move a team when they're in the process of splitting up a $1.3 *billion* pool of expansion money. No owner is going to pay $650 when they can get a team for free. Secondly, aside from a few retread cities, there are very few real options for the NHL.

And finally, I think Bettman and a lot of the owners were getting tired of Karmanos's shenanigans. If they let him move again, he'd have left scorched Earth behind in two decent markets. Say what you will about Hartford, the arena, and the limited revenue streams, but the fans were there. If Karmanos had negotiated a fair arena deal with half public money and half of his own, I have few doubts the Whale would still be going strong. And knowing what we know now, if Raleigh loses a team due to ownership issues, who wouldn't want to drop an expansion team here, knowing the market works?

It's one thing to fail to make it work in Atlanta or Oakland or Kansas City (or Phoenix and Sunrise), but it's quite another to bollocks up Hartford and Raleigh.

As for the potential reopening, as much as this would have hurt the Canes (both ways), I'm starting to think the NHL and NBA have tried to go too big. I don't think there's any way to keep 46 teams of athletes healthy enough to finish a 24-team or 22-team playoff bracket. They both should have stuck to the top-8 *at most* and maybe even the top-4. With the 24- and 22-team brackets, I think the most-likely scenario by a longshot is starting and not being able to finish, which I think will be even worse than canceling the season.

Note: The "both ways" comment was meant to say, we'd be out of the playoffs, and likely have much less than a 12.5 percent chance of getting the No. 1 overall pick.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

As someone who grew up in CT and goes back (when not forbidden by ******* quarantine) I would have lost that bet on Hartford.
2 things I learned today that stunned me:
1) Stamford is now the #2 city in CT
2) Cary is bigger than every city in CT.

I was in MA and CT for work in March. Had never been to CT before. Always had a soft spot for a Hartford because of the whale and also I like those sort of secondary, sometimes gritty cities. They can be a lot of fun and have some real gems that don’t cost an arm and a leg. Driving through CT was eye opening with my colleague who lives near Boston. There isn’t a lot of anything going on in terms of industry across the board. Some pretty depressed areas and Hartford wasn’t worth staying around any longer than we had to.

You gotta give people a reason to want to live there, raise families, start business, etc. and it doesn’t seem as though CT is doing much of that at all other than being close to either NY or Boston. Just an outsiders perspective who spent 2-3 days in the area though.

 

[MrazeksVengeance]

As someone who grew up in CT and goes back (when not forbidden by ******* quarantine) I would have lost that bet on Hartford.
2 things I learned today that stunned me:
1) Stamford is now the #2 city in CT
2) Cary is bigger than every city in CT.

Well, it is what it is.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

over on capfriendly a Montreal fan is claiming that we should have taken the Picks for Aho because we are losing execs due to the high signing bonuses.

 

[tarheelhockey]

over on capfriendly a Montreal fan is claiming that we should have taken the Picks for Aho because we are losing execs due to the high signing bonuses.

It really is amazing how many Habs fans have an inside connection to the Canes front office.

 

[WreckingCrew]

It really is amazing how many Habs fans have an inside connection to the Canes front office.

Only people who know more about our inner workings are former Nordiques fans...they know EVERYTHING

 

[Joe McGrath]

Dudley leaving is pretty interesting. His biggest value is going and watching hockey games in person to scout. That’s pretty much all he does as a person. That’s probably not going to happen this year so Dundon sees no value. I don’t blame him.