Confirmed Trade: [ARI/PHI] Shayne Gostisbehere, 2022 2nd, 2022 7th (STL) for future considerations

[lancer247]

Oh, sarcasm! Sure.

And, now you're misusing the term "strawman". It actually looked like you didn't know, because if you did know, this sentence wouldn't make much sense:



And then you say this:



You're acting like either (1) they were on the team at the same time and taking up both top 4 RD spots, so Ghosts ONLY option was 3rd pair, OR (2) the 2nd pair doesn't exist. I assumed the former was more likely than the latter.

Again, as I said in my last post, even if they wanted Niskanen or Ellis on the top pair and didn't think Ghost was even an option to play there (they were proven incorrect, but whatever), Ghost could still be a top 4 D by putting him on the 2nd pair. Problem solved.

i used the term perfectly but I won’t debate grammar on a sports chat board.

they could have done a lot of things but at the end of the day they did not believe ghost was an option in the top 4 and too expensive for bottom 2
We’ll see how it works out. Hopefully they are correct or lucky. Either way, I am deciding to give some credence to the fact that every GM passed on Ghost for free. We’ll see if they were all wrong. As i said I like ghost but I question whether a team can go deep with him in their top 4 for various reasons.

 

[Striiker]

i used the term perfectly but I won’t debate grammar on a sports chat board.

they could have done a lot of things but at the end of the day they did not believe ghost was an option in the top 4 and too expensive for bottom 2
We’ll see how it works out. Hopefully they are correct or lucky. Either way, I am deciding to give some credence to the fact that every GM passed on Ghost for free. We’ll see if they were all wrong. As i said I like ghost but I question whether a team can go deep with him in their top 4 for various reasons.

You either don't understand what a strawman is, don't understand what I just said, or you're being dishonest for some odd reason. Either way, pointless.

And Fletcher was wrong when it comes to this trade. Indisputably so. It was a horrendous mistake the second it was made and you don't need any hindsight to know that. No matter what happened this year, that was already decided because, based on what was known at the time the trade, Fletcher gave up a guy who just had a great year, plus two draft picks, for absolutely nothing. What Fletcher did with that cap space following the trade and what Ghost has done this year only makes it look even worse.

It also doesn't matter whether they thought he was a top 4 D or not. He was. His play proved that. Not to mention he was, without debate, one of the four best defensemen on the team last year and would easily be one of them again this year. All you're proving here is that the coaching staff and GM are dumb, which is already a well known fact. They think Ristolainen is the better player, which says it all.

 

[Drew311]

What's the difference between Scouting Director and Director of Scouting? Where they sit within the Redundancy Department of Redundancy?

There's a huge difference. Just ask Dwight Schrute if he's Assistant Regional Manager or Assistant to the Regional Manager.

 

[Drew311]

Post of the year.

It's a ridiculous post, basically glorifying a shameful tear down because the owner wanted to shed payroll asap.

Any team with a decent roster could sell their team off in a year and get a bunch of picks and prospects. You email the league and tell every GM you're having a fire sale and start offering their high picks and prospects. You also tell them you'll take a whole bunch of dead cap for picks. Nothing unprecedented about it. It's actually really sad, and the organization is likely in for 5 - 10 terrible years, if they make it that long.

 

[hbk]

It's a ridiculous post, basically glorifying a shameful tear down because the owner wanted to shed payroll asap.

Any team with a decent roster could sell their team off in a year and get a bunch of picks and prospects. You email the league and tell every GM you're having a fire sale and start offering their high picks and prospects. You also tell them you'll take a whole bunch of dead cap for picks. Nothing unprecedented about it. It's actually really sad, and the organization is likely in for 5 - 10 terrible years, if they make it that long.

We chose a year of pain to rebuild. Finishing last and drafting early has worked out immensely well for the Blackhawks, Penguins, Capitals, etc and resulted in championships and long-term success. We didn’t break up a Stanley Cup caliber team. We broke up a team that at best would continue to languish in mediocrity hoping to just qualify for the playoffs and maybe get on a lucky run like they did in 2012.

we’ve been through rebuild before but this time we finally invested in drafting AND development. Something that the organization has failed to focus on as they hoped for a quick Taylor Hall fix would move them from an afterthought in their own market.

Yes any team could do this. Nobody has quite weaponized the cap to the extent that Armstrong has this year. It will be interesting to see if this sparks a trend or not.

the reason I celebrated that post because it is a complete detailed breakdown of the strategy. This isn’t just an “owner cutting costs” as you labelled it. It’s a complete teardown to provide the draft capital necessary to start the rebuild. This is the beginning. AZ has about $50 M in cap to use for next season. If you hated what we did this off aeason prepare to get absolutely disgusted in Conor Bedard’s draft.

 

[lancer247]

You either don't understand what a strawman is, don't understand what I just said, or you're being dishonest for some odd reason. Either way, pointless.

And Fletcher was wrong when it comes to this trade. Indisputably so. It was a horrendous mistake the second it was made and you don't need any hindsight to know that. No matter what happened this year, that was already decided because, based on what was known at the time the trade, Fletcher gave up a guy who just had a great year, plus two draft picks, for absolutely nothing. What Fletcher did with that cap space following the trade and what Ghost has done this year only makes it look even worse.

It also doesn't matter whether they thought he was a top 4 D or not. He was. His play proved that. Not to mention he was, without debate, one of the four best defensemen on the team last year and would easily be one of them again this year. All you're proving here is that the coaching staff and GM are dumb, which is already a well known fact. They think Ristolainen is the better player, which says it all.

I know what strawman means.
he was one of the four best d on a d that sucked.
The team would be no better with him this season. They didn’t believe in him no matter how much you believe in him. Cap space was more valuable to them then his play.
Time will tell but you can have the last word.

 

[Striiker]

I know what strawman means.
he was one of the four best d on a d that sucked.
The team would be no better with him this season. They didn’t believe in him no matter how much you believe in him. Cap space was more valuable to them then his play.
Time will tell but you can have the last word.

What are you even arguing?

You first responded to me because you were triggered by things I didn't say and you wanted to prove you didn't know what a strawman was.
Then you went on to tell me that the coaches and GM didn't think Ghost was a top 4 D, which is obvious and irrelevant to anything I was saying.
Now you're saying absurd nonsense like "the team would be no better with him this season", about a team that currently has Rasmus Ristolainen and Justin Braun in the top 4.

I must be getting Punk'd.

 

[EdmFlyersfan]

What are you even arguing?

You first responded to me because you were triggered by things I didn't say and you wanted to prove you didn't know what a strawman was.
Then you went on to tell me that the coaches and GM didn't think Ghost was a top 4 D, which is obvious and irrelevant to anything I was saying.
Now you're saying absurd nonsense like "the team would be no better with him this season", about a team that currently has Rasmus Ristolainen and Justin Braun in the top 4.

I must be getting Punk'd.

Braun is playing much better this season than last, Risto is only playing because of Ellis's injury.

 

[Striiker]

Braun is playing much better this season than last, Risto is only playing because of Ellis's injury.

Risto has been with Sanheim on the second pair all year.

When Ellis was in, it was Yandle and Braun on the third pair.

 

[EdmFlyersfan]

Risto has been with Sanheim on the second pair all year.

When Ellis was in, it was Yandle and Braun on the third pair.

My bad, I meant Seeler...and I would think Risto would be benched or moved to the 3rd pair after some of his play.

Ellis-Prov
Sanheim-Braun
Yandle-Risito/Seeler

 

[Striiker]

My bad, I meant Seeler...and I would think Risto would be benched or moved to the 3rd pair after some of his play.

Ellis-Prov
Sanheim-Braun
Yandle-Risito/Seeler

I’d be absolutely shocked if Ristolainen ever sees any accountability and gets pushed down the lineup, even when he’s playing as horrible as he currently is.

They wanted a big dumb goon who hits and that’s exactly what they got. So long as he does that he’ll be infallible in their eyes. They think he’s great defensively because he fits that caveman stereotype, even though he’s literally one of the worst defensive players in the entire league and has been for years. If they haven’t figured that out yet, I don’t think they ever will.

 

[rt]

 

[mja]

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

Cool fancy charts that mean nothing

 

[rt]

Cool fancy charts that mean nothing

I don't care about stat charts either. Some people like them. Thus, I shared.

 

[895]

I really like what Arizona did minus trading away Garland.

But tearing it down and getting picks is the easy part. Anyone can do that. We'll see what the future holds for Arizona.

 

[rt]

I really like what Arizona did minus trading away Garland.

But tearing it down and getting picks is the easy part. Anyone can do that. We'll see what the future holds for Arizona.

They got Guenther for Garland. Which is a pretty big risk but makes more sense from a timing perspective. Guenther is seven years younger.

 

[Hextallent63]

I know what strawman means.
he was one of the four best d on a d that sucked.
The team would be no better with him this season. They didn’t believe in him no matter how much you believe in him. Cap space was more valuable to them then his play.
Time will tell but you can have the last word.

your totally disregarding the human element of the trade and basing weather its good or bad on your own beliefs. he is gone because fletch has this idea of what he wants his d to look like and in his mind and the coaches, gost didnt fit. we have braun and risto and sanhiem in our top 4 right now. ellis is hurt i know but there is a serious arguement to be made that gost is better the the three named above based on his play last year and this year.

 

[Hextallent63]

I’d be absolutely shocked if Ristolainen ever sees any accountability and gets pushed down the lineup, even when he’s playing as horrible as he currently is.

They wanted a big dumb goon who hits and that’s exactly what they got. So long as he does that he’ll be infallible in their eyes. They think he’s great defensively because he fits that caveman stereotype, even though he’s literally one of the worst defensive players in the entire league and has been for years. If they haven’t figured that out yet, I don’t think they ever will.

as long as chuck fletcher is the gm risto will never leave the second pair

 

[YotesFan47]

I really like what Arizona did minus trading away Garland.

But tearing it down and getting picks is the easy part. Anyone can do that. We'll see what the future holds for Arizona.

When looking at the whole of BA's moves, Garland had to go with OEL. I don't like it either but it was a necessary evil I think.

 

[BAdvocate]

There are lots of good opinions in this thread on why Ghost is "better" than Ristolainen, but they are not valid on this site. If there was a HFBoards site for video hockey they would be very valid.

But in real hockey where intangibles, physicality, and a salary cap factors into trades you are comparing apples and oranges. It doesn't help that you can't measure plays that didn't occur because either defenseman was on the ice. And you certainly can't evaluate 2 players based on 10-15 games or before you see how they perform in the playoffs (as well as the last 10 regular season games as teams are fighting for playoff spots).

It's a pretty straightforward trade, Flyers wanted an apple, their basket of fruit was full, so in order to add the apple, they had to trade an orange. All other teams had enough oranges, so the Flyers had to entice one with room for another orange by offering one of those "smarties" oranges in the form of a 2nd round pick, in addition to the Florida Navel ghost orange.

Oops I mixed up my "Ghost" fruit at the end lol....corrected...

 

[Striiker]

There are lots of good opinions in this thread on why Ghost is "better" than Ristolainen, but they are not valid on this site. If there was a HFBoards site for video hockey they would be very valid.

But in real hockey where intangibles, physicality, and a salary cap factors into trades you are comparing apples and oranges. It doesn't help that you can't measure plays that didn't occur because either defenseman was on the ice. And you certainly can't evaluate 2 players based on 10-15 games or before you see how they perform in the playoffs (as well as the last 10 regular season games as teams are fighting for playoff spots).

It's a pretty straightforward trade, Flyers wanted an apple, their basket of fruit was full, so in order to add the apple, they had to trade an orange. All other teams had enough oranges, so the Flyers had to entice one with room for another orange by offering one of those "smarties" oranges in the form of a 2nd round pick, in addition to the red delicious ghost apple.

L

 

[Heldig]

I really like what Arizona did minus trading away Garland.

But tearing it down and getting picks is the easy part. Anyone can do that. We'll see what the future holds for Arizona.

Yes, I am sad they traded Garland.

They have a boatload of picks in 2022 but that is likely a year or two ( or 3) away from being much help. They will ahve a very high pick in 2023 as well.

They also will have a ridiculous amount of cap space. If they play their cards right they might be able to attract some quality Free Agents over the next two seasons.

 

[rt]

Yes, I am sad they traded Garland.

They have a boatload of picks in 2022 but that is likely a year or two ( or 3) away from being much help. They will ahve a very high pick in 2023 as well.

They also will have a ridiculous amount of cap space. If they play their cards right they might be able to attract some quality Free Agents over the next two seasons.

Also Dylan Guenther has 11pts in 7gp since being moved to center.

 

[lancer247]

your totally disregarding the human element of the trade and basing weather its good or bad on your own beliefs. he is gone because fletch has this idea of what he wants his d to look like and in his mind and the coaches, gost didnt fit. we have braun and risto and sanhiem in our top 4 right now. ellis is hurt i know but there is a serious arguement to be made that gost is better the the three named above based on his play last year and this year.

I agree that Fletch like most GMs has a vision for what mix of players/skillsets will help the team to succeed. I like ghost and think he is a good player but I can see his flaws and how they could be a big target in a long series.
I am not going to get carried away with him padding stats on a bad team. He is a skilled player so I wouldn’t expect any different. I just don’t know if that translates to a good team where he isn’t a top 4 dman.