Confirmed Trade: [ARI/PHI] Shayne Gostisbehere, 2022 2nd, 2022 7th (STL) for future considerations

[Sparksrus3]

Agreed.

The Coyotes have failed due to not drafting enough, drafting poorly, and developing badly.

In a little over a year the Coyotes have hired:

General Manager
Bill Armstrong:
STL Scout - 6yrs
STL Dir. Scouting - 8yrs
STL Asst. General Mgr - 2yrs

Scouting Director
Darryl Plandowski:
BUF Scout - 8yrs
PIT Scout - 2yrs
TBL Head Scout - 11yrs
TBL Dir. Scouting - 2yrs

Associate Scouting Director
Ryan Jankowski:
NYI Scout: 2yrs
NYI Asst. General Mgr: 5yrs
MTL Scout: 3yrs
BUF Dir. Scouting - 3yrs

Director of Scouting
Alan Hepple:
NSH Scout: 5yrs
COL Scout: 7yrs
COL Asst. Dir. Scouting: 6yrs
COL Dir. Scouting 6yrs

Head Coach
Andre Tourigny:
QMJHL GM/Head Coach: 11yrs
COL Asst. Coach: 2yrs
OTT (NHL) Asst. Coach: 1yr
OHL VP Hockey Ops/Head Coach: 4yrs
Team Canada U18 Asst. Coach: 1yr
Team Canada U18 Head Coach: 1yr
Team Canada U20 Asst. Coach: 4yrs
Team Canada U20 Head Coach: 1yr
Team Canada WC Asst Coach: 1yr
QMJHL COY: 1yr
OHL COY: 2yrs
CHL COY: 1yr

Assistant GM
John Ferguson:
OTT Scout: 3yrs
STL Asst.GM/Dir.Ops: 7yrs
TOR General Manager 5yrs
SJS Dir. Scouting: 6yrs
BOS Dir. Player Pers./AHL GM: 7yrs

Development Staff
Scott Pellerin:
TOR Dir. Player Dev.: 7yrs

Development Staff
David Oliver:
AHL General Manager: 2yrs
COL (NHL) Dir. Player Dev./AHL GM: 1yr
COL (NHL) Dir. Player Dev./AHL Dir.Ops: 1yr
AHL Asst.Coach/Dir.Ops: 2yrs
AHL Dir. Hockey Ops: 1yr
COL (NHL) Dir. Player Dev.: 4yrs
NYR Asst. Coach: 3yrs
---
In the past year, or so, the Coyotes have acquired:

2021 - 1st VAN (9th overall)
2021 - 2nd CBJ (37th overall)
2021 - 2nd COL (60th overall)

2022 - 1st MTL
2022 - 1st COL
2022 - 2nd SJS
2022 - 2nd PHI
2022 - 2nd VAN
2022 - 2nd NYI

2024 - 2nd MTL
2024 - 2nd FLA

Conor Timmins (22)
Josef Korenar (23)
Dylan Guenther (18)
Josh Doan (19)
Ilya Fedotov (18)
JJ Moser (21)
Cole Hults (23)
Vladislav Kolyachonok (20)

---

They hired a bunch of really highly regarded young talent identifiers, and a bunch of really highly regarded young talent developers, and then they went out and acquired an absolutely unprecedented haul of young assets under 25 years of age.

So now all of those newly hired, highly regarded young talent identifiers can locate the best young talent and all of those newly hired, highly regarded young talent developers can make sure they are brought along correctly, and progress according to plan.

It's easy for dopes who don't pay attention to say "yeah, yeah, we've seen it all before" but we really haven't. Not if you actually look. If you have a brain and you pay attention you can spot the difference. This is nothing like anything we've seen before.

The Coyotes have absolutely never restructured an entire front-office, hockey ops, and coaching staffs to SPECIFICALLY accommodate an absolutely massive rebuild, based entirely on a proven track-record of success in young talent identification and development.

And while the Coyotes have traded off a bunch of old players before, they've never torn it all the way down to 24 and under, and no team has ever accumulated that massive of a haul of under 24 assets in a single year.

Anyone who thinks all of this isn't wildly unprecedented isn't paying attention. Nobody ever does this. Nobody acquires 3 1sts, 8 2nds, a handful of good prospects under 25 in a single year. Nobody replaces their GM, AGM, Coaching Staff, Scouting Staff, and Development staff in a single year, while simultaneously tearing the entire roster down to the bare studs.

They did this in just over 12 months time.

I will wait for the audio book to come out instead of reading this .

 

[hbk]

Agreed.

The Coyotes have failed due to not drafting enough, drafting poorly, and developing badly.

In a little over a year the Coyotes have hired:

General Manager
Bill Armstrong:
STL Scout - 6yrs
STL Dir. Scouting - 8yrs
STL Asst. General Mgr - 2yrs

Scouting Director
Darryl Plandowski:
BUF Scout - 8yrs
PIT Scout - 2yrs
TBL Head Scout - 11yrs
TBL Dir. Scouting - 2yrs

Associate Scouting Director
Ryan Jankowski:
NYI Scout: 2yrs
NYI Asst. General Mgr: 5yrs
MTL Scout: 3yrs
BUF Dir. Scouting - 3yrs

Director of Scouting
Alan Hepple:
NSH Scout: 5yrs
COL Scout: 7yrs
COL Asst. Dir. Scouting: 6yrs
COL Dir. Scouting 6yrs

Head Coach
Andre Tourigny:
QMJHL GM/Head Coach: 11yrs
COL Asst. Coach: 2yrs
OTT (NHL) Asst. Coach: 1yr
OHL VP Hockey Ops/Head Coach: 4yrs
Team Canada U18 Asst. Coach: 1yr
Team Canada U18 Head Coach: 1yr
Team Canada U20 Asst. Coach: 4yrs
Team Canada U20 Head Coach: 1yr
Team Canada WC Asst Coach: 1yr
QMJHL COY: 1yr
OHL COY: 2yrs
CHL COY: 1yr

Assistant GM
John Ferguson:
OTT Scout: 3yrs
STL Asst.GM/Dir.Ops: 7yrs
TOR General Manager 5yrs
SJS Dir. Scouting: 6yrs
BOS Dir. Player Pers./AHL GM: 7yrs

Development Staff
Scott Pellerin:
TOR Dir. Player Dev.: 7yrs

Development Staff
David Oliver:
AHL General Manager: 2yrs
COL (NHL) Dir. Player Dev./AHL GM: 1yr
COL (NHL) Dir. Player Dev./AHL Dir.Ops: 1yr
AHL Asst.Coach/Dir.Ops: 2yrs
AHL Dir. Hockey Ops: 1yr
COL (NHL) Dir. Player Dev.: 4yrs
NYR Asst. Coach: 3yrs
---
In the past year, or so, the Coyotes have acquired:

2021 - 1st VAN (9th overall)
2021 - 2nd CBJ (37th overall)
2021 - 2nd COL (60th overall)

2022 - 1st MTL
2022 - 1st COL
2022 - 2nd SJS
2022 - 2nd PHI
2022 - 2nd VAN
2022 - 2nd NYI

2024 - 2nd MTL
2024 - 2nd FLA

Conor Timmins (22)
Josef Korenar (23)
Dylan Guenther (18)
Josh Doan (19)
Ilya Fedotov (18)
JJ Moser (21)
Cole Hults (23)
Vladislav Kolyachonok (20)

---

They hired a bunch of really highly regarded young talent identifiers, and a bunch of really highly regarded young talent developers, and then they went out and acquired an absolutely unprecedented haul of young assets under 25 years of age.

So now all of those newly hired, highly regarded young talent identifiers can locate the best young talent and all of those newly hired, highly regarded young talent developers can make sure they are brought along correctly, and progress according to plan.

It's easy for dopes who don't pay attention to say "yeah, yeah, we've seen it all before" but we really haven't. Not if you actually look. If you have a brain and you pay attention you can spot the difference. This is nothing like anything we've seen before.

The Coyotes have absolutely never restructured an entire front-office, hockey ops, and coaching staffs to SPECIFICALLY accommodate an absolutely massive rebuild, based entirely on a proven track-record of success in young talent identification and development.

And while the Coyotes have traded off a bunch of old players before, they've never torn it all the way down to 24 and under, and no team has ever accumulated that massive of a haul of under 24 assets in a single year.

Anyone who thinks all of this isn't wildly unprecedented isn't paying attention. Nobody ever does this. Nobody acquires 3 1sts, 8 2nds, a handful of good prospects under 25 in a single year. Nobody replaces their GM, AGM, Coaching Staff, Scouting Staff, and Development staff in a single year, while simultaneously tearing the entire roster down to the bare studs.

They did this in just over 12 months time.

Post of the year.

 

[mja]

Like how some are pumping these tires. Then I look at the standings

Pumping tires? Standings? The thread was bumped by a Flyers fan lamenting the abject stupidity of the Flyers' organization.

I like Ghost he was a good player with nice skills. Really a situational player on a good team. May be a seventh defenseman. He is a poor man’s Jonathan Michael Liles.
On a bad team he will pile up big numbers with high usage and a lot of power playtime. But he’s not worth his contract that’s why 32 GM’s passed on him for free more than once. He was easily targeted in a long series. He put up nice analytical stats but defensively he was a liability. Teams dumped the puck into his corner knowing that they could push him off the puck and he would avoid board battles spending most of the time one hand poke checking the puck around the board to his defense of partner putting them in a tough spot. He no longer had straight line speed to beat opponents to the puck and exit. You couldn’t expect him to win net front battles but he wouldn’t even tie up a stick.
I think he’ll do well and somebody may pick him up at the deadline but he’s not worth the money he is getting paid

Hey Chuck, how are the Risto extension talks going? Lemme guess, 8 years and a NMC?

 

[Our Lady Peace]

Like how some are pumping these tires. Then I look at the standings

Like it's Shayne Gostisbehere's fault that the Coyotes are dead last?

Don't be a troll. Give the player credit where credit is due. Flyers fans are vocally pissed off because of how the organization handled him. That should say enough.

 

[mja]

Like it's Shayne Gostisbehere's fault that the Coyotes are dead last?

Don't be a troll. Give the player credit where credit is due. Flyers fans are vocally pissed off because of how the organization handled him. That should say enough.

Most egregious mishandling of a Flyers player that I can remember, and this is a team that once almost killed its franchise player by having him get on a plane with a collapsed lung. They did everything in their power to tank his value.

 

[YotesFan47]

Like it's Shayne Gostisbehere's fault that the Coyotes are dead last?

Don't be a troll. Give the player credit where credit is due. Flyers fans are vocally pissed off because of how the organization handled him. That should say enough.

This may have been mentioned and I didn’t bother to go back and read, but to your point, Gost leads our team with 9 points in 12 games on the worst scoring team in the NHL while not being a defensive issue. Gost is the furthest thing from a problem on this roster. If he maintains this through the year and into next season, not only did we commit a robbery, but we will get away with selling the spoils for a fortune at the ‘23 TDL.

 

[Striiker]

Crazy that Arizona fans have a better grasp on Ghosts ability/play after a month than 95% of the Flyers clueless fanbase after six years. They're completely right too and it's not just based on a small sample. They're describing exactly what we saw in Philly during his time here. A player with tons of offensive skill, amazing puck moving, and perfectly passable defensive play. He's a legit top 4 D, without question.

Also crazy that fans are so eager to fall for stereotypes when it comes to a player they rarely watch and certainly don't know the usage context of.

In case you weren't aware, Ghost was one of the better offensive defensemen in the whole league in his 1st and 3rd seasons. After that third season, where he put up 65 points playing on the Flyers top pair, he spent grand total of roughly 20 or so games away from the bottom pair over the next 160+ games. Why did he get buried? He had horrible coaches who love big dumb players and didn't value his skillset. Provorov was the problem on the top pair both times they were together post-2017-2018 season, but he can do no wrong in the eyes of this franchise and fanbase so Ghost was scapegoated and sent back down the lineup to carry trash like Hagg or Prosser.

Even his PP time got screwed with. He bounced between the two units and, even when he was where he belonged, the top unit was constantly screwed with by coaches who thought putting debatably the best PP player of the last decade (Giroux) on the wrong side was a good idea, which hurt the unit a ton. Then Ghost gets waived by Fletcher for absolutely no reason last year and the GM and coach did everything in their power to tank value before making one of the worst trades I've ever seen to send him to Arizona, even though he was our clear best D last season.

Point being, it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone who watches him that he's doing better once he's no longer being buried with crap usage and horrific partners with coaches with irrational biases against him, even though it's on a bad team. He was set up to fail in Philly and now he's finally free of this horrible staff.

 

[lancer247]

Pumping tires? Standings? The thread was bumped by a Flyers fan lamenting the abject stupidity of the Flyers' organization.

Hey Chuck, how are the Risto extension talks going? Lemme guess, 8 years and a NMC?

I’m not sure what that has to do with Ghost’s flaws and lack of interest from every GM but … good in ya for the attempt at humor.

I doubt Risto gets 8 but unfortunately he’ll probably stay around 5MM-6MM.

 

[lancer247]

Crazy that Arizona fans have a better grasp on Ghosts ability/play after a month than 95% of the Flyers clueless fanbase after six years. They're completely right too and it's not just based on a small sample. They're describing exactly what we saw in Philly during his time here. A player with tons of offensive skill, amazing puck moving, and perfectly passable defensive play. He's a legit top 4 D, without question.

Also crazy that fans are so eager to fall for stereotypes when it comes to a player they rarely watch and certainly don't know the usage context of.

In case you weren't aware, Ghost was one of the better offensive defensemen in the whole league in his 1st and 3rd seasons. After that third season, where he put up 65 points playing on the Flyers top pair, he spent grand total of roughly 20 or so games away from the bottom pair over the next 160+ games. Why did he get buried? He had horrible coaches who love big dumb players and didn't value his skillset. Provorov was the problem on the top pair both times they were together post-2017-2018 season, but he can do no wrong in the eyes of this franchise and fanbase so Ghost was scapegoated and sent back down the lineup to carry trash like Hagg or Prosser.

Even his PP time got screwed with. He bounced between the two units and, even when he was where he belonged, the top unit was constantly screwed with by coaches who thought putting debatably the best PP player of the last decade (Giroux) on the wrong side was a good idea, which hurt the unit a ton. Then Ghost gets waived by Fletcher for absolutely no reason last year and the GM and coach did everything in their power to tank value before making one of the worst trades I've ever seen to send him to Arizona, even though he was our clear best D last season.

Point being, it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone who watches him that he's doing better once he's no longer being buried with crap usage and horrific partners with coaches with irrational biases against him, even though it's on a bad team. He was set up to fail in Philly and now he's finally free of this horrible staff.

yes, only the AZ fans and only the enlightened Flyers fans can see ghost greatness. The majority of fans see the positive ghost brings unfortunately there are Flyers fans that refuse to see his flaws and/or blame them exclusively on the coaching and usage.
I am not going to trash ghost. I like him but he wasn’t going to play ahead of Provy or Sanheim on the left. He is a good player but I am not going to overboard on his production on a horrible team. He is benefiting from the Kyle Calder effect.

 

[Striiker]

yes, only the AZ fans and only the enlightened Flyers fans can see ghost greatness. The majority of fans see the positive ghost brings unfortunately there are Flyers fans that refuse to see his flaws and/or blame them exclusively on the coaching and usage.

Strawmen are boring. Try again with an honest post or take a lap.

I am not going to trash ghost. I like him but he wasn’t going to play ahead of Provy or Sanheim on the left. He is a good player but I am not going to overboard on his production on a horrible team. He is benefiting from the Kyle Calder effect.

He played on the right side for most of his time here, including his best season, so that's no excuse. Especially when you look at who else played on the right side during his time here. There was no excuse for him to be on the third pair while Myers and Braun were in the top 4.

 

[ottomaddox]

At least Arizona won round in the bubble. Lol.

You need to make a banner that says that.

 

[hbk]

What’s Ghost’s trade value now at deadline or over summer with retention? Asking for a team that will likely sell him.

 

[Summer Rose]

You need to make a banner that says that.

We're not Nashville.

We did raise a banner for our 2011-12 division championship, but I think that's fair.

 

[Drew311]

Gostisbehere has a team leading 9 points in 12 games (on 19 total goals by Arizona), along with a +9.6 relxGF% and >50 GF% on a 35 GF% team at 5v5. He's 3 points clear of the next Coyote. This doesn't seem like a poor start for a player who the Flyers intermittently and arbitrarily scratched, waived (so they could urgently scratch Lindblom and Patrick), placed in the situation to go unclaimed, and paid a substantial price for the pleasure of trading away for zilch.

The dirty secret about Gostisbehere -- that most Flyers fans here were happy to spill -- is that he was damned good last season 5v5/PP, after an admittedly poor 2019-2020. The Flyers just did everything in their power to erase his confidence and value. They even regularly let Provorov, among the worst high usage PP defenders in the league, take his PP1 spot. Even in his other down years, he was usually good besides some brutal puck luck. While his straight line speed isn't what it was, his combination of creativity, aggressive reads (offensively and defensively), edge work, hands, and head fakes are still readily apparent.

He never had any business being treated like a garbage cap dump to a tanking team. It was just a face palm precursor to certain other face palm moves by the Flyers. I don't doubt the Coyotes are smiling right now.

The Coyotes are 1 - 10. I doubt many in the organization are smiling.

 

[Gurglesons]

Bet Seattle wishes they took him for picks instead of giving Oleksiak that contract.

 

[Martin Skoula]

The Coyotes are 1 - 10. I doubt many in the organization are smiling.

They're cleaning house so they can get a better sale price. I'm sure the owner is beaming.

 

[lancer247]

Strawmen are boring. Try again with an honest post or take a lap.



He played on the right side for most of his time here, including his best season, so that's no excuse. Especially when you look at who else played on the right side during his time here. There was no excuse for him to be on the third pair while Myers and Braun were in the top 4.

You over use and Misuse the term straw man. It’s not a catch all whenever someone states a fact that you don’t like.
I am aware that ghost played a great deal of time on the right and was affective but the current staff wanted right-handed dmen on the right side.
Niskanen and Ellis were better options than Ghost and ghost’s contract was to expensive for the third pair. I like ghost but I don’t see him anchoring a top line on a serious cup contender. He was a bad partner for Sanhiem so he was going to be stuck on the third pair.
I like ghost much better than Yandle but Yandle is a much less expensive placeholder for York and others.

 

[rt]

You need to make a banner that says that.

Everyone knows Toronto sucks already.

 

[Magua]

The Coyotes are 1 - 10. I doubt many in the organization are smiling.

They're blatantly tanking. They got paid a 2nd rounder to take on a player who has been their best player and could be flipped for more assets. But sure, everyone in the organization is probably dressed in black and weeping over it.

 

[Striiker]

You over use and Misuse the term straw man. It’s not a catch all whenever someone states a fact that you don’t like.

Nope.

Who said "only the enlightened fans can see ghosts greatness"? Not me.
Who said the coaches and usage are responsible for his flaws? Not me.

You couldn't argue against what I actually said so you chose to pretend I said something else. What is that called again... ?

I am aware that ghost played a great deal of time on the right and was affective but the current staff wanted right-handed dmen on the right side.
Niskanen and Ellis were better options than Ghost and ghost’s contract was to expensive for the third pair. I like ghost but I don’t see him anchoring a top line on a serious cup contender. He was a bad partner for Sanhiem so he was going to be stuck on the third pair.
I like ghost much better than Yandle but Yandle is a much less expensive placeholder for York and others.

Niskanen and Ellis were never on the team at the same time.
Neither of them forced Ghost to the third pair. Each of them took up one top 4 spot on the right side... so Ghost should've been in the other. Simple.
Instead it was Braun or Myers or Hagg or Ristolainen in the top 4. All are far worse players.

A top four of
Sanheim-Niskanen or Ellis
Provorov-Ghost
is better than what we had then or have now by miles.

 

[BLNY]

What's the difference between Scouting Director and Director of Scouting? Where they sit within the Redundancy Department of Redundancy?

 

[Summer Rose]

Like how some are pumping these tires. Then I look at the standings

As good as he's been for us, probably our best player so far (which is admittedly not saying a whole lot when it's the Coyotes), he's not a game breaker who can carry a team and will them to win under his guidance. Hockey being the ultimate team sport that it is, even if he were, with a supporting cast almost akin to a middling Broadway actor (but a Broadway actor nonetheless) performing with a bunch of high school drama kids, he's the star of the show. It's not going to be a good overall production, though. He's no Neil Patrick Harris in this analogy.

 

[rt]

What's the difference between Scouting Director and Director of Scouting? Where they sit within the Redundancy Department of Redundancy?

Who cares? It’s how it’s listed on the website. Point is they got the top scouts from STL, TBL, and COR. Ever heard of em?

 

[lancer247]

Nope.

Who said "only the enlightened fans can see ghosts greatness"? Not me.
Who said the coaches and usage are responsible for his flaws? Not me.

You couldn't argue against what I actually said so you chose to pretend I said something else. What is that called again... ?



Niskanen and Ellis were never on the team at the same time.
Neither of them forced Ghost to the third pair. Each of them took up one top 4 spot on the right side... so Ghost should've been in the other. Simple.
Instead it was Braun or Myers or Hagg or Ristolainen in the top 4. All are far worse players.

A top four of
Sanheim-Niskanen or Ellis
Provorov-Ghost
is better than what we had then or have now by miles.

Part one
It’s called sarcasm not using a strawman argument.
I never claimed that you said only the enlightened fans can see ghosts greatness" or “ the coaches and usage are responsible for his flaws” go back and re-read what I said correctly.

Part 2

I never said that Niskanen and Ellis played at the same time. Stop making a strawman argument

I was making the point that the Flyers were never comfortable with ghost as a top pair dman. They didn’t feel he could handle the other teams top players. one season they acquired Niskanen this season they went out and acquired Ellis. Last season they were caught when Nisk retired.
We’ll see how the changes they made pan out.

 

[Striiker]

Part one
It’s called sarcasm not using a strawman argument.
I never claimed that you said only the enlightened fans can see ghosts greatness" or “ the coaches and usage are responsible for his flaws” go back and re-read what I said correctly.

Part 2

I never said that Niskanen and Ellis played at the same time. Stop making a strawman argument

I was making the point that the Flyers were never comfortable with ghost as a top pair dman. They didn’t feel he could handle the other teams top players. one season they acquired Niskanen this season they went out and acquired Ellis. Last season they were caught when Nisk retired.
We’ll see how the changes they made pan out.

Oh, sarcasm! Sure.

And, now you're misusing the term "strawman". It actually looked like you didn't know, because if you did know, this sentence wouldn't make much sense:

Niskanen and Ellis were better options than Ghost and ghost’s contract was to expensive for the third pair

And then you say this:

I was making the point that the Flyers were never comfortable with ghost as a top pair dman. They didn’t feel he could handle the other teams top players. one season they acquired Niskanen this season they went out and acquired Ellis.

You're acting like either (1) they were on the team at the same time and taking up both top 4 RD spots, so Ghosts ONLY option was 3rd pair, OR (2) the 2nd pair doesn't exist. I assumed the former was more likely than the latter.

Again, as I said in my last post, even if they wanted Niskanen or Ellis on the top pair and didn't think Ghost was even an option to play there (they were proven incorrect, but whatever), Ghost could still be a top 4 D by putting him on the 2nd pair. Problem solved.

And yet that didn't happen. They buried him on the third pair and scratched him and waived him and traded him for negative value because they were hyper-focused on his flaws and underrated his positive attributes, much like a large part of this fanbase.