Lt Dan
F*** your ice cream!
Do you really believe that Green Bay as a city and a franchise would have it's success without it's proximity to Milwaukee? or it would it be 1/10 of it's size
Who do you think was buying all the meat they were packing?
Arenas that could host a NHL team right now
- Thread starter alko
- Start date
Who do you think was buying all the meat they were packing?
Cross Hamilton of the list. They don't have anyone willing to shell out the dough for a team(hence, nobody stepped up to apply for expansion when QC, Vegas and Seattle did). Plus Copps Coliseum is a run down dive, and the city has no appetite to renovate it without some major private dollars
AdmiralsFan24
Registered User
Do you really think it would be a town of 10,000 people? Who would buy it? Well, for one they're on a bay that leads into a great lake, so they could ship it, you know, anywhere, Detroit, Cleveland, Chicago and anywhere else along the East Coast. Green Bay was also the hub of the Green Bay and Western Railroad which took freight West to the Mississippi River and all of the cities along there. So yeah, I'd say they would probably be around the same now as they would be if Milwaukee didn't exist.
Like Houston it’s up to nba owner to decide if they want hockey and pay the price for it.
That’s going to be the issue with any nhl ready arena in an nba market.
Chloraflora
NOLU
Hm, fair, I always forget suites. Damn rich people funding the whole thing!
Well done, OP. You've fostered a debate over whether Milwaukee "deserves" an NHL franchise, and whether San Diego is a suburb of Los Angeles.
Still no concise comprehensive list of arenas like you supposedly sought, though. Gotta be a disappointment.
Still no concise comprehensive list of arenas like you supposedly sought, though. Gotta be a disappointment.
The now-Smoothie King Center definitely has a proper hockey configuration. In fact, the first tenant when it opened was the ECHL's New Orleans Brass.
Barclay Donaldson
Registered User
Um, no. Do you know what a suburb is? Green Bay is 2 hours from Milwaukee. Foxboro is 30 minutes from Boston. See the difference? No one commutes to Milwaukee from Green Bay. Saying Green Bay is a suburb for Milwaukee is like saying Columbus is a suburb of Cincinnati. Or Harrisburg is a suburb of Philadelphia. Or Fresno is a suburb of San José. Or Ottawa is a suburb of Montréal. Atlanta Gladiators play in suburban Duluth, about 30 minutes from Atlanta. They can call themselves the Atlanta Gladiators because Atlanta is close. 2 hours is not close. And so what if they played a handful of games per year in Milwaukee decades ago? In the 70s, the Golden State Warriors would regularly play games in San Diego. Milwaukee doesn't have a team bro. You've already been told off by the other guy.
sctvman
Registered User
Colonial Life Arena in Columbia, SC could be a passable NHL arena, even though it has never even hosted a hockey game (and Columbia is a little larger than Winnipeg).
18,000 seats with 45 suites. The University of South Carolina wouldn’t even let the local ECHL team play there (which caused them to fold). They vetoed pretty much any sport other than their own in the area for years.
The area didn’t even have MILB until 2016 because USC wouldn’t share their 8,200 seat baseball stadium.
Hockey has pretty much been non-existent in that area in the last decade since the Inferno folded, but that arena is larger than any arena in the AHL but Cleveland and 13 NHL arenas.
I said a new arena or renovated FOC. could be funded by the government if Hamilton is awarded the 2030 commonwealth games which stands a good chance of happening since the city is booming right now & the population the of Hamilton will be over 1 million by then .
How do you think Hamilton funding the funding for Tim Horton's Field through the government for the pan am games same thing would happen & by the way Houston , Quebec City & Southern Ontario (Hamilton) are the only cities that have interest in an NHL. team right now .
alko
Registered User
Its all about fun. Did you have fun reading this thread? I did. And i learned also something new.
While it could certainly still happen, I doubt we'll ever see an NHL team play in a venue like the Cow Palace, Ottawa Civic Centre, or Florida State Expo Hall again. It's crazy to think how much the business side of the game has changed in 25 years.
The Zetterberg Era
Ball Hockey Sucks
Nebraska does have an arena that holds 17,000+ for hockey.
I believe this one is the CHI Health Center in Omaha correct? Also home to Creighton's basketball teams if I remember right.
Omaha is a sneaky market, I always think it is one of the more interesting ones as you would have outright ownership of pro sports there pretty much if you did put a team there and they have corporate partners that would make it run locally. I don't really see a team going there, but the NBA and NHL should have it somewhere on their radar and not completely off the board in my opinion.
The Zetterberg Era
Ball Hockey Sucks
@tarheelhockey already got at this right away in the thread but I seriously doubt they kept the ice plant in place and didn't dismantle the equipment. One of the easy ways to do this funny enough is to google Disney on Ice and a city. Which tours the world pretty much non-stop, but it is quite popular and you will notice the arenas they use in each town are generally the larger facilities. While not the be all end all, I think it does give you some help on some of the arenas we guess at this from time to time. I find it interesting that they tour in different venues in New Orleans which I think supports the notion that we have put out in terms of the hatred with which they extinguished hockey in that arena in the ECHL also likely involved the scrapping of equipment. I am not certain on it though, just the smoke would lead me to think that it isn't capable without dollars being spent to retrofit it back to that ability.
GuelphStormer
Registered User
a) seattle did not bid on expansion
b) a suitable buyer in hamilton is not an issue
c) yes, first ontario / copps is outdated but can easily serve as a temporary venue while a new facility is built either just around the corner on lands being vacated by a downtown secondary school, or on the waterfront. public moneys are available.
d) several billion dollars of new commercial and residential projects have made hamilton a strong local economy
e) median house prices and income continue to rise, helped in some part by folks relocating from toronto, providing ample, stable buyer pool
f) expanded local LRT and regional GO transit make access easy
that the league hasn't been in hamilton for years already has next to nothing to do with its suitability, it has everything to do with MLSE's resistance; the league's paternalistic view of Buffalo; league-wide revenue allocation, sharing and cap mechanisms; alignment, and; perhaps most importantly, other city's willingness to make financially risky decisions to build public facilities for private hockey. the only lasting knock against hamilton is the relative lack of corporate support (although suites would surely sell out.)
KevFu
Registered User
cptjeff
Reprehensible User
Arenas don't generally dismantle ice plants, that costs money. They just turn them off and turn them back on for special events until they break and they're forced to make a decision to get rid of them or upgrade. Greensboro had a similar history of hockey teams leaving on bad terms, but the ice plant has since been upgraded enough that they've hosted the US Figure Skating nationals twice in in the last decade, and will host again next year.
And yes, they actually could host an NHL team full time again- capacity, better ice than they had for the Canes, sufficient press box and okay corporate suite capacity. But unless an asteroid hits PNC Arena mid season, that's not gonna happen.
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Agreed. Checking which facilities Disney on Ice plays in is a good way to know about a city's arena situation regarding ice. It's a bit more complicated by the existence of the portable ice plant they tour with for cities that don't have arenas with ice plants, but one can usually tell, at the least, if its a real hockey configuration by looking at the seating charts.
With that said, Disney on Ice will always use an arena that has an ice plant over one that doesn't even if the latter is larger. When they play New Orleans they use the University of New Orleans' Lakefront Arena, which is the second largest arena in town and seats about 9000 for basketball. So there is the possibility the ice plant was removed from the Smoothie King Center at some point, possibly after Hurricane Katrina if it was damaged by that storm.
Or it could just be that the Pelicans lease prevents hockey use. The reason the Brass folded in the first place is that the then-Hornets wanted them to shoulder the entire cost of basketball-to-hockey conversion, and they couldn't afford it. (Their previous home, the old Municipal Auditorium, had been renovated and had its ice plant removed, so they couldn't go back there.)
With that said, Disney on Ice will always use an arena that has an ice plant over one that doesn't even if the latter is larger. When they play New Orleans they use the University of New Orleans' Lakefront Arena, which is the second largest arena in town and seats about 9000 for basketball. So there is the possibility the ice plant was removed from the Smoothie King Center at some point, possibly after Hurricane Katrina if it was damaged by that storm.
Or it could just be that the Pelicans lease prevents hockey use. The reason the Brass folded in the first place is that the then-Hornets wanted them to shoulder the entire cost of basketball-to-hockey conversion, and they couldn't afford it. (Their previous home, the old Municipal Auditorium, had been renovated and had its ice plant removed, so they couldn't go back there.)
The Zetterberg Era
Ball Hockey Sucks
I said it wasn't the be all end all in terms of this, but I find in a city that size the selection of a much smaller arena to stick out and couldn't find recent ice events involving the Smoothie King Center.
I don't really understand removing the ice plant, but it has certainly happened in a few arenas over the years. If you're committed to redoing your floor, I think some cut this expense out when it happens. I noticed the capacity has changed in terms of New Orleans a couple of times which might suggest some renovations, though the Katrina point is probably more accurate.
The person who told me this as a tip ran an IHL and AHL franchise and I have heard similar thoughts in terms of this from other front office personnel when they used to look for venues to move NHL games around in the pre-season to when that was more common.
For some info somewhat on this it is complex. I wish I had a more definitive time line on how often these are replaced.
Also somewhat explanation of this for Winter Classic temporary sheets
I think this is easier than installing a temporary system indoors, but that technology is used for the outdoor games I believe.
I don't really understand removing the ice plant, but it has certainly happened in a few arenas over the years. If you're committed to redoing your floor, I think some cut this expense out when it happens. I noticed the capacity has changed in terms of New Orleans a couple of times which might suggest some renovations, though the Katrina point is probably more accurate.
The person who told me this as a tip ran an IHL and AHL franchise and I have heard similar thoughts in terms of this from other front office personnel when they used to look for venues to move NHL games around in the pre-season to when that was more common.
For some info somewhat on this it is complex. I wish I had a more definitive time line on how often these are replaced.
Also somewhat explanation of this for Winter Classic temporary sheets
I think this is easier than installing a temporary system indoors, but that technology is used for the outdoor games I believe.
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HisIceness
This is Hurricanes Hockey
Calling @garnetpalmetto to the stage.....
I don't remember all the details but I believe in fact the AD at USC told the Inferno to take a hike when they wanted in the Colonial Life Arena after it was built, thus they stuck it out at Carolina Coliseum for the next 5 years while trying to build an arena, an effort that got shot down at least twice (one near the airport and the other in Irmo). It's unfortunate because the Inferno had a good team most years and had great rivalries with the other Carolina-based teams.
If the Inferno had moved in and stayed in existence I could see a scenario under Dundons watch where the Hurricanes may have looked at playing a preseason game or two there. It's not the biggest market to gain a foothold in but a lot of USC students and alumni have Charlotte connections (I've seen plenty of Gamecocks shirts at Checkers games) and there's a sizable alumni base in the Triangle as well. Could have carved a little niche there, but nothing ever got off the ground.
garnetpalmetto
Jerkministrator
I've been summoned from my slumber by mention of my hometown (and @HisIceness mentioning me)
So, let's start with the low-hanging fruit to @sctvman's post. It's incorrect to say that "the area didn't even have MiLB until 2016." Ignoring Columbia's history of Minor League teams going back to the late 1800s (the Senators, Skyscrapers, Gamecocks, Commies, and Comers, Reds, and Gems from the 1890s up until the early '60s), Columbia had a run of having MiLB from 1983 until 2004 when the Shelby (NC) Mets relocated to Columbia and became first the Columbia Mets and then the Capital City Bombers playing out of Capital City Stadium.
What spelled the end of the Bombers was stadium conditions at Capital City Stadium and the city's unwillingness to do just about anything to build a new park. Capital City Stadium was fairly substandard towards the end of its career as a pro park and both MiLB and the Mets were not happy with conditions there. Plus it was rebuilt on the cheap in the early '90s so there were no luxury suites, fan facilities were barely passable, and player facilities were worse. The team routinely lost multiple games because the stadium's poor drainage would mean that any sort of sustained periods of rain in the spring/summer would flood out the field.
The death knell was when Columbia's City Council said they'd only provide funding for a single stadium and encouraged the Bombers and the Gamecocks to share a park. The Bombers balked when USC demanded a ridiculous amount of earnest money from the team (I forget the exact number but it was in the millions) as well as scheduling priority and sole rights to branding/decoration in the park and on the concourse. Simultaneously Greenville, SC had just lost their Double-A Braves affiliate to Pearl, MS and they used their now empty Double-A quality park and the promise of a new stadium to lure the team to Greenville in 2005 where they played a single season as the Greenville Bombers before moving to Fluor Field and changing their name to the Drive. So at the end of the day, the death of the Bombers was on USC AND Columbia's City Council.
Now, onto the Inferno. The truth, as I recall it, is somewhere in between @HisIceness and what @sctvman are discussing. Discussions to build Colonial Life Arena began in earnest in 2000/2001 and ground was finally broken in 2001. The rationale for the new arena to replace the 33-year old Carolina Coliseum was that it would provide more opportunities for events including hockey, arena football and other events that the Coliseum couldn't host. The Inferno began play in 2001 and Colonial Life Arena opened a year later. From the jump, the situation at the Coliseum for the Inferno wasn't ideal as the ice was not regulation size (IIRC it was somewhere around the dimension of the old Boston Gardens), there was no seating behind the goals, and the "luxury suites" consisted of folding tables and folding chairs immediately behind the glass at ice level. Otherwise the lowest level of seats was about 8' off the ice. The least was also not ideal as the team, IIRC, only got gate revenue and merch revenue. Concessions and parking went back to the University. The owners of the Inferno finally approached USC about moving over to the Colonial Life Arena when their initial lease on the Coliseum was running out only to be told that because the bonds used to build Colonial Life Arena would become taxable should a pro team play there. Beyond that, the seating map for hockey was/is awful - think Barclay's-esque, but with the addition of no seats at all behind one of the goals. The owners of the team realized that continued occupation of Carolina Coliseum was untenable (especially as the University began discussing plans to demolish the Coliseum once the School of Journalism moved out of its basement) and sought (and received) a voluntary suspension from the ECHL. They looked into two sites, one near Columbia Metropolitan Airport and one in Irmo near Lake Murray, to build a new hockey-only arena before deciding that an arena would only work in downtown Columbia and, at the end of the day, nothing happened and the Inferno went quietly into that night.
Should an NHL team eye Columbia, they'd be dealing with a more friendly University than when I lived there. Former USC Athletics Director Mike McGee, who was the AD from 1993-2005, was notoriously against anything *other* than USC Sports in Columbia's sports scene to the point where he initially balked at concerts using Williams-Brice Stadium, USC's 80,250 seat football stadium, because they could mess up the field. (Never mind that while McGee was AD Gamecock football's combined record was 67-81-1). His successors, Eric Hyman (2005-2012) and Ray Tanner (2012-present) have definitely been more friendly to competition from other local sports, but that said, the issues at Colonial Life would be just as difficult for the NHL as the ECHL - an unfavorable seating plan would make the fan experience there undesirable at best.
Had something happened and the bonds not been an issue and a favorable lease agreement been struck between the University and the Inferno for Colonial Life Arena, I think @HisIceness is correct - the best the city could have done would have been an occasional preseason game maybe between the Hurricanes and whomever the Inferno were affiliated with at the time or, assuming they get the Hurricanes affiliation rather than Greenville, between the Hurricanes and whomever either Greenville was affiliated with or South Carolina Stingrays parent Washington Capitals.
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HisIceness
This is Hurricanes Hockey
Some video of the Inferno at the Carolina Coliseum in their last season of existence (2007-08). Notice the lower level seats are directly over the team benches and penalty boxes. And to confirm what GP said, yes the ice was not regulation size and many opposing players and coaches commented negatively about it when they played there.
sctvman
Registered User
The CLA is a great arena for basketball (they hosted Duke-UCF this year in that incredible 2nd round game as part of a sub-regional).
But Columbia isn’t a very favorable town in non-USC sports. The Fireflies attendance varies depending on the day. Some mid-week games they struggle to get 1,500; but most weekend games they get 4-5K.
They’d probably have to put a tarp over some of the seats for hockey in order for it to fit. The Inferno would get 3-4K a game in Carolina Coliseum.
Columbia though, with 832K metro population, could definitely support an ECHL team.
The Stingrays (the team in Charleston)’s attendance has gone up the last two seasons. Probably a very small percentage of their fans are from the Columbia area, and that arena already has a lot of concerts, but 36 home games could fit there.
But Columbia isn’t a very favorable town in non-USC sports. The Fireflies attendance varies depending on the day. Some mid-week games they struggle to get 1,500; but most weekend games they get 4-5K.
They’d probably have to put a tarp over some of the seats for hockey in order for it to fit. The Inferno would get 3-4K a game in Carolina Coliseum.
Columbia though, with 832K metro population, could definitely support an ECHL team.
The Stingrays (the team in Charleston)’s attendance has gone up the last two seasons. Probably a very small percentage of their fans are from the Columbia area, and that arena already has a lot of concerts, but 36 home games could fit there.
