Arena Editorial - COG are incompetent idiots - Yotes not to blame

[Dolemite]

For you n00bs here, I used to be a beat reporter for the Coyotes during the ownership circus.

In the spirit of Dan Rather I just posted this editorial to my Facebook page.

Facebook editorial - https://www.facebook.com/azvibe/posts/10154505835373380

Article it refers to in the editorial (Glendale, Arizona section) - https://halfboards.com/2016/12/19/things-to-keep-in-mind-as-the-season-progresses/

Click to read more...

 

[rt]

You mention Glendale has been incompetent. You mention it repeatedly. What exactly are you referencing there? You mention promises broken concerning a more involved construction project. Any supporting details for us? Like any facts from that time we can review? You classify the relationship between the team and the city as abusive. You didn't explain what abuse the Coyotes have suffered at the hands of the city. Didn't the city build an arena and a small entertainment district? Didn't the city cut several bail out checks for many, many millions of dollars for the team?

I don't think Glendale was ever a good spot for the Coyotes. And moving there was a huge mistake. It's just that you aren't backing up any of your claims with any substance at all.

 

[Matias Maccete]

Lots of incompetence from all sides IMO, nice to read different perspectives on it though, thanks for sharing.

 

[XX]

A poorly written facebook post qualifies now?

The Coyotes need a new arena because the City of Glendale didn't fulfill their side of their promises (due to their own incompetence) and the Coyotes shouldn't be responsible for this. They also need a new arena so they can grow the game and traditions of hockey as well as challenge for a Stanley Cup Championship.

No mention of IA not holding up their end of the bargain I see. And the team isn't responsible for their current situation? Come again?

 

[Coyotes2000]

A poorly written facebook post qualifies now?



No mention of IA not holding up their end of the bargain I see. And the team isn't responsible for their current situation? Come again?

Hiring Tindall is about it.. the business was heading in the right direction until Glendale permanently damaged it and any future relations.

Nice avatar btw. Seriously pathetic

 

[TheLegend]

Hiring Tindall is about it.. the business was heading in the right direction until Glendale permanently damaged it and any future relations.

Nice avatar btw. Seriously pathetic

Nope.....

There was this small item where IA was supposed to submit annual financial statements to the city and they stalled their reporting for months until the city was forced to initiate an audit.

The Tindall hiring was only an excuse to give the city a way out of the lease.

There is absolutely no way anyone can defend IA on this.

 

[RemoAZ]

Poorly written, one-sided view. The city not only built the arena. They gave the NHL $50 mil just to keep the team here. Then they gave them a lease with a huge subsidy. Through their incompetence and arrogance, the owners thought they could **** on the city and the fans both on and off the ice. They put a horrible, low budget team on the ice and didn't want anyone to see where the management fee was really going. They allowed the city a way out of the subsidy. Now its all about greed and ego instead of both sides working out something fair and equitable. Instead the owners are trying to get an even bigger subsidy masking it as wanting to get closer to the fans,

Never have they actually tried to earn the fans support and loyalty by building an exciting, winning team. It's always about how much tax money they can get to pay for their loan. I'm so tired of this I haven't watched two games in a row. Don't remember ever doing that. As Shane said, they make it tough to be a Coyote fan. I'm tired of being kicked in the nuts by this team.

 

[ClassLessCoyote]

Didn't read. The thread title was a dead giveaway of the article being a hit piece on Glendale while painting the franchise as perfect and can never do anything wrong.

 

[cobra427]

I still think the Coyotes would have won that case if it had gone to court with the COG. They would have had additional damage do deal with of a court case too. I think at that point, the Coyotes knew that hockey would not work in Glendale. In 11 years at that time, the team did not generate any significant season ticket holders from the west valley. The base was still in the east valley. So they could have gone to court but what is the point if they were going to leave the west valley anyway.

Hockey is still a fringe sport. People live and move to the Phoenix area because they like the lifestyle and weather in the area. The money in the east valley just doesn't want to make the trip to Glendale. Outside of going to a Cardinals games which is 8 Sundays a year, 41 games is just too much. Nobody goes to Glendale ever except for a sports game. The east valley/Phoenix/Scottsdale/Tempe have many other reasons, mostly where people work and live, to be in those areas on a frequent basis.

Even the east valley or a downtown location with the Suns, will need a winning team to draw solid support. The Suns/D Backs do not draw well unless they are winning either. The Suns have a large ticket base and the NBA is a printing press so they, like the Cardinals, will always be fine. In a destination city like Phoenix, you need the right location and a winning team or it won't generate positive cash flow.

Pro sports franchise values are expected to continue rising, and this is really the play for the Coyotes ownership group and the NHL.The Coyotes or the NHL can support short term losses rather than a fire sale which would kill future expansion and look bad on the heals of the Vegas franchise fee's.

The NHL is calling the shots if the team moves. I still think, like in the past, they will figure out a way to stay in the valley either downtown, Indian reservation. or an east valley location. The NHL wants a team here and until that changes, the coyotes will be staying.

 

[Bonsai Tree]

Nope.....

There was this small item where IA was supposed to submit annual financial statements to the city and they stalled their reporting for months until the city was forced to initiate an audit.

The Tindall hiring was only an excuse to give the city a way out of the lease.

There is absolutely no way anyone can defend IA on this.

Agreed, but this mess might be coming to a head on IA's watch, but is certainly wasn't caused by IA.

 

[Bonsai Tree]

Let's look at this from a root cause analysis point of view.

The NHL was prepared to move the Winnipeg Jets to Minnesota. When that fell through, they found a temporary home in Phoenix's downtown arena. As hockey ownership didn't control the revenue streams and negotiations to increase revenue streams were unsuccessful, the team needed its own building. (The issue of partially obstructed view seats, the "Dog Pound", was a red herring IMO.)

The owners sold to a developer who wanted the arena to be the cornerstone of a large mixed commercial- residential development.

Glendale wanted to come out from Phoenix's shadow and become a regional player, not just a suburb of the big city. Certainly the two parties' needs aligned to that extent.

Unfortunately, Glendale and the Coyotes could not provide two essential elements each needed to make this successful venture.

Glendale could not supply an adequate number of paying patrons to make the venture successful without major support of paying patrons from the East Valley.

Glendale could not supply effective mass transit or rapid highway transit from the East Valley to the arena.

The Coyotes, despite mulitple ownership and management changes, could not supply the elements that they controlled to make the venture successful: Successful on ice teams (a desired and sought after product) and successful management to properly market the team.

I find the causes of this debacle to be the failures of both Glendale and the Coyotes. Both parties should have known that without these four essential elements the arena should never have been built. Neither party did their due diligence.

 

[Matias Maccete]

Well said Bonsai.

 

[Bonsai Tree]

Well said Bonsai.

Thank you! The blind bull got lucky.

 

[KG]

Let's look at this from a root cause analysis point of view.

The NHL was prepared to move the Winnipeg Jets to Minnesota. When that fell through, they found a temporary home in Phoenix's downtown arena. As hockey ownership didn't control the revenue streams and negotiations to increase revenue streams were unsuccessful, the team needed its own building. (The issue of partially obstructed view seats, the "Dog Pound", was a red herring IMO.)

The owners sold to a developer who wanted the arena to be the cornerstone of a large mixed commercial- residential development.

Glendale wanted to come out from Phoenix's shadow and become a regional player, not just a suburb of the big city. Certainly the two parties' needs aligned to that extent.

Unfortunately, Glendale and the Coyotes could not provide two essential elements each needed to make this successful venture.

Glendale could not supply an adequate number of paying patrons to make the venture successful without major support of paying patrons from the East Valley.

Glendale could not supply effective mass transit or rapid highway transit from the East Valley to the arena.

The Coyotes, despite mulitple ownership and management changes, could not supply the elements that they controlled to make the venture successful: Successful on ice teams (a desired and sought after product) and successful management to properly market the team.

I find the causes of this debacle to be the failures of both Glendale and the Coyotes. Both parties should have known that without these four essential elements the arena should never have been built. Neither party did their due diligence.

Solid analysis.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Glendale could not supply an adequate number of paying patrons to make the venture successful without major support of paying patrons from the East Valley.

What the hell...? How is this not the Coyotes' fault? They focused what paltry marketing they had on the East Valley, almost to the exclusion of the West Valley entirely. Did you know that you can STILL go places in the West Valley and find people that don't even know there is a hockey team playing just down the street? That is a tremendous failure on the team's part, and there's no sugarcoating it.

As for the rest of this thread, the Scruggs council was a bunch of incompetent rubes, I won't dispute that, but this "Coyote Fan Revisionist History" to try to fit the narrative that IceArizona is a victim absolutely stupefies me. Glendale and IceArizona, it appears, aren't the only ones not willing to do due diligence.

 

[Bonsai Tree]

What the hell...? How is this not the Coyotes' fault? They focused what paltry marketing they had on the East Valley, almost to the exclusion of the West Valley entirely. Did you know that you can STILL go places in the West Valley and find people that don't even know there is a hockey team playing just down the street?

As for the rest of this thread, the Scruggs council was a bunch of incompetent rubes, I won't dispute that, but this "Coyote Fan Revisionist History" to try to fit the narrative that IceArizona is a victim absolutely stupefies me. Glendale and IceArizona, it appears, aren't the only ones not willing to do due diligence.

I appreciate your loyalty for your city, but you're premise is all wrong. It is not a fault of Glendale that there aren't enough hockey fans in Glendale and surroundings. It is simply how it is. The fault of Glendale is in not recognizing that there were insufficient fans in the West Valley to support their arena, alongside to a huge barrier preventing East Valley fans from travelling to Glendale on weekday evening games. .

You note that there are still some in Glendale that do not know of the Coyotes. It is clear to me that in Glendale and surroundings the coverage of the Coyotes issues with Glendale has been so dense, for so long, that your claim of a lack of Coyotes marketing in Glendale is the cause for low local turn out is on its face, false.

There is no revisionist history here. If you are implying that Glendale shouldn't be held responsible for this mess you are wrong. They are responsible for making a very poor decision to build the arena.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

I appreciate your loyalty for your city, but you're premise is all wrong. It is not a fault of Glendale that there aren't enough hockey fans in Glendale and surroundings. It is simply how it is. The fault of Glendale is in not recognizing that there were insufficient fans in the West Valley to support their arena, alongside to a huge barrier preventing East Valley fans from travelling to Glendale on weekday evening games. .

First of all, Glendale isn't my city. Second of all, the job of a marketing department is to woo customers to a product. Even if we accept the extremely questionable premise that there weren't enough hockey fans in the West Valley when the Coyotes first moved there, that does not at all presuppose that fans could not be created from the population that lives there.

None of that is Glendale's fault. They provided the shelf space for a product. The product is what sells or what does not. It was - and is - the Coyotes' responsibility to find an audience, wherever it resides. They did not bother to do so in the area that does not have the "huge barrier" facing people in Gilbert and Mesa because their idea that hockey fans only exist east of the I-17 was a self-fulfilling prophecy.

You note that there are still some in Glendale that do not know of the Coyotes. It is clear to me that in Glendale and surroundings the coverage of the Coyotes issues with Glendale has been so dense, for so long, that your claim of a lack of Coyotes marketing in Glendale is the cause for low local turn out is on its face, false.

I didn't say it was the cause. It is, however, a major factor in why the fan base numbers continue to skew the way they have. And blaming Glendale for it, like you have, is simply ridiculous.

There is no revisionist history here. If you are implying that Glendale shouldn't be held responsible for this mess you are wrong. They are responsible for making a very poor decision to build the arena.

That's a great conclusion to come to in hindsight. Yes, we know now that the way things turned out, building a taxpayer-funded arena in Glendale on the cusp of a major recession was a big mistake. Glendale was sold a bill of goods and they bought it hook, line, and sinker.

BUT - nobody else in Arizona was going to do it. Scottsdale turned down the whole idea (wisely, as it turns out) and if Glendale hadn't made its stupid decision, the Coyotes would be in Portland right now. If Glendale hadn't paid $50 million in ransom payments to the NHL, they'd be in Winnipeg. If Glendale hadn't bent over and taken it in the poop chute in 2013, they'd be in Seattle. Glendale is the only reason why you have an Arizona Coyotes team to absolve of all ills in the first place.

I realize it's in vogue to attack the messenger, and every time I bring this up someone inevitably accuses me of being a Glendale/West Valley homer. I'm not. I think that the Coyotes originally should have built an arena in Tempe rather than at Los Arcos. I think a new arena at 101 and Indian Bend would be a perfect spot to be accessible to the most fans and the most money. Glendale is a cautionary tale both for sports franchises and local governments.

But they don't deserve to bear the entire weight of blame for all of this mess. This team is owned by small-time, borderline crooks whose spin and histrionics cannot cover their failures and their lackadaisical approach to both team ownership and their lease agreement with their host city.

 

[cobra427]

First of all, Glendale isn't my city. Second of all, the job of a marketing department is to woo customers to a product. Even if we accept the extremely questionable premise that there weren't enough hockey fans in the West Valley when the Coyotes first moved there, that does not at all presuppose that fans could not be created from the population that lives there.

None of that is Glendale's fault. They provided the shelf space for a product. The product is what sells or what does not. It was - and is - the Coyotes' responsibility to find an audience, wherever it resides. They did not bother to do so in the area that does not have the "huge barrier" facing people in Gilbert and Mesa because their idea that hockey fans only exist east of the I-17 was a self-fulfilling prophecy.



I didn't say it was the cause. It is, however, a major factor in why the fan base numbers continue to skew the way they have. And blaming Glendale for it, like you have, is simply ridiculous.



That's a great conclusion to come to in hindsight. Yes, we know now that the way things turned out, building a taxpayer-funded arena in Glendale on the cusp of a major recession was a big mistake. Glendale was sold a bill of goods and they bought it hook, line, and sinker.

BUT - nobody else in Arizona was going to do it. Scottsdale turned down the whole idea (wisely, as it turns out) and if Glendale hadn't made its stupid decision, the Coyotes would be in Portland right now. If Glendale hadn't paid $50 million in ransom payments to the NHL, they'd be in Winnipeg. If Glendale hadn't bent over and taken it in the poop chute in 2013, they'd be in Seattle. Glendale is the only reason why you have an Arizona Coyotes team to absolve of all ills in the first place.

I realize it's in vogue to attack the messenger, and every time I bring this up someone inevitably accuses me of being a Glendale/West Valley homer. I'm not. I think that the Coyotes originally should have built an arena in Tempe rather than at Los Arcos. I think a new arena at 101 and Indian Bend would be a perfect spot to be accessible to the most fans and the most money. Glendale is a cautionary tale both for sports franchises and local governments.

But they don't deserve to bear the entire weight of blame for all of this mess. This team is owned by small-time, borderline crooks whose spin and histrionics cannot cover their failures and their lackadaisical approach to both team ownership and their lease agreement with their host city.

I disagree in that I think the Los Arcos location would have been a great spot for an arena. All the bars and restaurants near their in Scottsdale. It would have been a huge success and revitalized that area.

The mistake was putting a high end product(NHL team, in a lower end area(Glendale), too far from their fan base(Scottsdale/east valley). This was the fault of the NHL, Coyotes, and Glendale. The NHL wanted the team to stay in AZ, the Coyotes needed an arena, and Glendale wanted to become a destination city, like Scottsdale. They all agreed to it with good intentions, it just didn't work. We now know the fan base in the east valley won't make the trip and the fan base in the west valley won't support the team. It doesn't matter at this point who's fault it is, it is what it is, just something that doesn't work.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

I disagree in that I think the Los Arcos location would have been a great spot for an arena. All the bars and restaurants near their in Scottsdale. It would have been a huge success and revitalized that area.

Los Arcos wasn't accessible enough as a location, and it wasn't in a very savory part of South Scottsdale. The area where Tempe Marketplace is now was far more suitable to a large multipurpose entertainment district (as evidenced by the current success of the shopping center and the location of most of the Coyotes' current arena targets). And the idea that the Coyotes arena would have revitalized Los Arcos doesn't wash simply because it's on a different side of town than Glendale.

This was the fault of the NHL, Coyotes, and Glendale. The NHL wanted the team to stay in AZ, the Coyotes needed an arena, and Glendale wanted to become a destination city, like Scottsdale. They all agreed to it with good intentions, it just didn't work.

I agree with all of this... I just wish you would have stopped there and not gone on to say this:

We now know the fan base in the east valley won't make the trip and the fan base in the west valley won't support the team.

If a fan won't make the trip, does that by definition mean that he's not supporting the team? And I'm pretty certain that the fan base in the West Valley are the ones who still went to the games when only 4,000 people showed up.

At any rate, this team won't attract flies if it sucks on the ice. It's been proven on both sides of town. Anyone who truly believes that a 20-mile change of scenery is going to be the magic wand that fixes this franchise's woes in the twinkling of an eye is fooling themselves.

 

[AZviaNJ]

Outrage when a blogger slams Glendale.

Where's the outrage with AZ Republic/12 News take continual shots at the Coyotes?

There's some level of fault on both sides, but clearly one side (COG) broke the lease.

 

[XX]

Outrage when a blogger slams Glendale.

Where's the outrage with AZ Republic/12 News take continual shots at the Coyotes?

There's some level of fault on both sides, but clearly one side (COG) broke the lease.

COG broke the lease because:

1. The lease was a disgusting misuse of public funds and contained a subsidy for the Coyotes that wasn't sustainable.

2. The Coyotes gave Glendale cause by poorly managing the arena, including not being forthcoming about financials. They were a very, very poor tenant and partner.

3. The Coyotes handed Glendale the easy out by making the moronic decision to hire former city employees, a clear and direct violation of self-dealing protections that competent owners would have minded.

Glendale has maintained that they want the Coyotes, they're just not going to subsidize things anymore. Perfectly fair stance to take. The Coyotes (or rather IA) have decided that the best way to react to losing the subsidy is to throw a toddler level temper tantrum in public, both before folding like a cheap lawn chair on the breaking of the lease and after.

What Brahm Resnik is doing is actual journalism. He may, on a surface level, want to be rid of the Coyotes. I have no doubt of that, really. But he is often times the only one willing to corner Leblanc when he is at his slimiest.

Hockey in Arizona deserves much better ownership than these clowns, and it also deserves to be in a location+facility that is sustainable. We may never get that chance now thanks to IA's blunders. If the team moves, it's solely on their inability to be a competent party in any new arena deal, as well as being an awful partner in the one they left in their wake.

 

[RemoAZ]

At any rate, this team won't attract flies if it sucks on the ice. It's been proven on both sides of town. Anyone who truly believes that a 20-mile change of scenery is going to be the magic wand that fixes this franchise's woes in the twinkling of an eye is fooling themselves.

Excellent takes Feckless. This is what I've been saying all along and it's a smoke screen. They want an arena with a subsidy again and I'm sure they'll structure the contract so they can't screw it up this time. If the Indians next door to West Gate gave them the money they are looking for, they'd move there. They don't care where it is.

Hockey in Arizona deserves much better ownership than these clowns, and it also deserves to be in a location+facility that is sustainable. We may never get that chance now thanks to IA's blunders. If the team moves, it's solely on their inability to be a competent party in any new arena deal, as well as being an awful partner in the one they left in their wake.

The sad part is if they would just be adults and work out a fair deal, it still could work where it is. These guys just want the subsidy to pay for their loan so they don't have to do anything and can still own a hockey team for just their signature.

 

[KG]

From a completely neutral prospective I can't blame the COG at all from wanting to get rid of that subsidy. If I was a voting taxpayer in Glendale, I would have encouraged it. And it's not a good look for IA with the re-negotiation. Things got sour quick.

 

[Bonsai Tree]

First of all, Glendale isn't my city. Second of all, the job of a marketing department is to woo customers to a product. Even if we accept the extremely questionable premise that there weren't enough hockey fans in the West Valley when the Coyotes first moved there, that does not at all presuppose that fans could not be created from the population that lives there.

None of that is Glendale's fault. They provided the shelf space for a product. The product is what sells or what does not. It was - and is - the Coyotes' responsibility to find an audience, wherever it resides. They did not bother to do so in the area that does not have the "huge barrier" facing people in Gilbert and Mesa because their idea that hockey fans only exist east of the I-17 was a self-fulfilling prophecy.



I didn't say it was the cause. It is, however, a major factor in why the fan base numbers continue to skew the way they have. And blaming Glendale for it, like you have, is simply ridiculous.

This isn't a blame deal. This is an attempt to understand causes.

That's a great conclusion to come to in hindsight. Yes, we know now that the way things turned out, building a taxpayer-funded arena in Glendale on the cusp of a major recession was a big mistake. Glendale was sold a bill of goods and they bought it hook, line, and sinker.

BUT - nobody else in Arizona was going to do it. Scottsdale turned down the whole idea (wisely, as it turns out) and if Glendale hadn't made its stupid decision, the Coyotes would be in Portland right now. If Glendale hadn't paid $50 million in ransom payments to the NHL, they'd be in Winnipeg. If Glendale hadn't bent over and taken it in the poop chute in 2013, they'd be in Seattle. Glendale is the only reason why you have an Arizona Coyotes team to absolve of all ills in the first place.

I attempted do do a root causes analysis. Of course that is hindsight. It answers the question: What key mistakes were made which caused the outcome in question

I realize it's in vogue to attack the messenger, and every time I bring this up someone inevitably accuses me of being a Glendale/West Valley homer. I'm not. I think that the Coyotes originally should have built an arena in Tempe rather than at Los Arcos. I think a new arena at 101 and Indian Bend would be a perfect spot to be accessible to the most fans and the most money. Glendale is a cautionary tale both for sports franchises and local governments.

But they don't deserve to bear the entire weight of blame for all of this mess. This team is owned by small-time, borderline crooks whose spin and histrionics cannot cover their failures and their lackadaisical approach to both team ownership and their lease agreement with their host city.

.
I posted what I thought were the key mistakes on both sides that caused this mess. I was not attempting to parse who was more responsible. My only additional comment, much as I dislike Leblanc et all, was that the key mistakes were made well before they took over. They took over a distressed business and didn't have the resources to make it healthy. I even doubt that a deep pockets owner would have been able to make it work in Glendale without the huge subsidy.

 

[TheLegend]

From a completely neutral prospective I can't blame the COG at all from wanting to get rid of that subsidy. If I was a voting taxpayer in Glendale, I would have encouraged it. And it's not a good look for IA with the re-negotiation. Things got sour quick.

Happens when you have big egos on both sides of the table.