Are there any upcoming prospects that will burn the league like Lemieux or Gretzky

FVM

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How do you compare athletes across different eras, then? It sounds like you want to look at absolute results only. That's fine, but it quickly leads to absurd results. If in 2100 the 100m world record is 9.30, and hundreds of sprinters run under 9.58, they are all better than Bolt? And farther in the future, thousands. It's obvious that saying all of them are better than Bolt doesn't mean anything, because their eras are so far apart. You can't compete over time.

In hockey it's the same thing. Looking at absolute scoring totals, there are many players in the 80s who are better than anyone currently in the league. Peter Stastny scored 122 points in 85-86 season, so he's obviously better than Crosby and Ovechkin. Right?
 

OvermanKingGainer

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Any proof of this other than your opinion?

I ask you the same. Do you have any proof that a player can dominate now like Gretzky et al did in there era?

You are operating at one assumption and I am operating at the other. Neither of us can prove it.

And you know what, if you believe this, why bother engaging in any type of GOAT discussion because GOATs can only be determined by dominance over peers.

"Greatest of all Time" does not mean "Best of All Time". The two are mutually exclusive.

Maybe we can both agree Mario Lemieux is the "Greatest of all Time".

That does not necessarily (though it might, I am not saying one way or the other) that he is the "Best of all Time"

They are two vastly different debates.

OP is asking if we will ever see a player as "Great" as Gretzky Lemieux and my response was:

No, you might see a player who is "Better" but not "Greater" because there will never be an era so ripe for the picking. I am saying "Greatness" in the future is virutally impossible.

That should not take away from the elite talents we have today, guys like Ovechkin, Malkin, Crosby.
 
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OvermanKingGainer

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How do you compare athletes across different eras, then? It sounds like you want to look at absolute results only. That's fine, but it quickly leads to absurd results. If in 2100 the 100m world record is 9.30, and hundreds of sprinters run under 9.58, they are all better than Bolt? And farther in the future, thousands. It's obvious that saying all of them are better than Bolt doesn't mean anything, because their eras are so far apart. You can't compete over time.

In hockey it's the same thing. Looking at absolute scoring totals, there are many players in the 80s who are better than anyone currently in the league. Peter Stastny scored 122 points in 85-86 season, so he's obviously better than Crosby and Ovechkin. Right?

Wrong, because the points themselves are not equal.

Seconds will never change. Time does not dilate on Earth.
Points will change. 2 points 30 years ago may only be worth 1 point now. In a team sport there are way too many influencing factors, not just individual ability.

You have to make a conversion factor, not compare the difference between the one best guy and the second best guy. That is simply lazy.

And maybe we don't have the information (ice time distribution) to make a decent conversion. But then we shouldn't pretend those numbers are of any real value at all.
 
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FVM

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Jan 26, 2010
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Wrong, because the points themselves are not equal.

Seconds will never change. Time does not dilate on Earth.
Points will change. 2 points 30 years ago may only be worth 1 point now.

You have to make a conversion factor, not compare the difference between the one best guy and the second best guy. That is simply lazy.

And maybe we don't have the information to make a decent conversion. But then we shouldn't pretend those numbers are of any real value at all.

Points are not equal, because they also reflect the quality of competition. That's why you have to look at dominance over the rest of the players, who play during the same era. I agree you need a conversion factor, it's not just about the best versus the second best. It's the best versus all the others.

To return to the sprinting analogy, even if seconds remain the same, sprinting innovations (those aforementioned nutrition, training, tracks, drugs etc.) don't. Which means that when you go far enough in the future, an average sprinter will be as fast as Bolt is today. That's why it's still about the relative dominance.
 

Love

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Its weird that we never have child-prodigy defenceman like we do with forwards like Crosby and McDavid. We knew who they were when they were like 12 years old, I can't remember that ever happening for a D man.

I realize this thread is about forwards but we are witnessing an all time great in Karlsson right now. Appreciate him and watch him while you can, he is arguably the best player in the world today.
 

Sens Rule

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Sep 22, 2005
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How do you compare athletes across different eras, then? It sounds like you want to look at absolute results only. That's fine, but it quickly leads to absurd results. If in 2100 the 100m world record is 9.30, and hundreds of sprinters run under 9.58, they are all better than Bolt? And farther in the future, thousands. It's obvious that saying all of them are better than Bolt doesn't mean anything, because their eras are so far apart. You can't compete over time.

In hockey it's the same thing. Looking at absolute scoring totals, there are many players in the 80s who are better than anyone currently in the league. Peter Stastny scored 122 points in 85-86 season, so he's obviously better than Crosby and Ovechkin. Right?

The 100m sprint is an incredible useless analogy to hockey.

Using a one dimensional pure power sport like sprinting or swimming or powerlifting and saying that today's athletes are way better then 20,30,50,70 years ago is fine. But those are one dimensional feats of strength and power.

Being a hockey player is about being great at thousands of things not perfecting a takeoff and acceleration like in sprinting. You can't just "train" to be good at hockey. How are Gaudeau and Byfuglien even in the same league? Why did it never matter that Luc Robitaille is slow as molasses?

You can't just arbitrarily compare hockey to a sport that is so different. Gretzky and Mario had otherwordly awareness. Near complete motor control over their legs, feet, arms and hands. Why is there no one like Datsyuk ever? Or Bure or Lindros or Neely or Ovechkin or Brett Hull. No one really played like any of those guys did, before or after.

Saying "hockey players are better then ever", might be true if you look at the average player in terms of strength or speed. But all stars are not "average" players.

Gretzky and Mario utterly destroyed the other best players in the league or Internationally. They were magnitudes better then the other top tier HHOFers of their era. Also anyone that thinks they just beat up on bad players is wrong. The other teams would line up their very best players against them to try to shut them down as much as possible. When either of them played Boston... And played 24 minutes in a game... Almost all of that time Bourque is on against them. So it wasn't like they just beat up on terrible 4th liners.

The argument that both would face much better players today doesn't really hold much water to me, because they were both massively above average players. And still far better then the best players. The fact that today's 3rd and 4th lines and bottom D are better then in 80's and 90's doesn't really affect them much. And the bigger, better goalies likely affects them less then one would think. The set up a lot of goals where they found teammates totally open. They both shot with absurd acuracy and made great decisions on when and where to shoot. They weren't just blasting pucks on the net very often.
 

OvermanKingGainer

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To return to the sprinting analogy, even if seconds remain the same, sprinting innovations (those aforementioned nutrition, training, tracks, drugs etc.) don't. Which means that when you go far enough in the future, an average sprinter will be as fast as Bolt is today. That's why it's still about the relative dominance.

If ten sprinters, 100 years from now, have broken Bolt's sprinting records, Bolt's "relative dominance" will not place him top ten of all time at being the best.

"Greatest" by HFboards definition? Maybe. But will anyone care, 100 years from now, about how "great" the 11th fastest sprinter ever was?

Does anyone care that Mayweather is 49-0 while Ali was only 56-5??

No, people care if Ali would beat Mayweather in a fight. Who is better, not who is greater. Who you beat, and "how you beat them", not how often you beat anyone.
 

Sens Rule

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Sep 22, 2005
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Its weird that we never have child-prodigy defenceman like we do with forwards like Crosby and McDavid. We knew who they were when they were like 12 years old, I can't remember that ever happening for a D man.

I realize this thread is about forwards but we are witnessing an all time great in Karlsson right now. Appreciate him and watch him while you can, he is arguably the best player in the world today.

Orr and Potvin were both those kind of phenoms like Crosby or McDavid. Everyone knew they would dominate right away and be at among the best D right away before they were even in the NHL. And everyone was right.
 

FVM

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Jan 26, 2010
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The 100m sprint is an incredible useless analogy to hockey.

Using a one dimensional pure power sport like sprinting or swimming or powerlifting and saying that today's athletes are way better then 20,30,50,70 years ago is fine. But those are one dimensional feats of strength and power.

Being a hockey player is about being great at thousands of things not perfecting a takeoff and acceleration like in sprinting. You can't just "train" to be good at hockey. How are Gaudeau and Byfuglien even in the same league? Why did it never matter that Luc Robitaille is slow as molasses?

You can't just arbitrarily compare hockey to a sport that is so different. Gretzky and Mario had otherwordly awareness. Near complete motor control over their legs, feet, arms and hands. Why is there no one like Datsyuk ever? Or Bure or Lindros or Neely or Ovechkin or Brett Hull. No one really played like any of those guys did, before or after.

Saying "hockey players are better then ever", might be true if you look at the average player in terms of strength or speed. But all stars are not "average" players.

Gretzky and Mario utterly destroyed the other best players in the league or Internationally. They were magnitudes better then the other top tier HHOFers of their era. Also anyone that thinks they just beat up on bad players is wrong. The other teams would line up their very best players against them to try to shut them down as much as possible. When either of them played Boston... And played 24 minutes in a game... Almost all of that time Bourque is on against them. So it wasn't like they just beat up on terrible 4th liners.

The argument that both would face much better players today doesn't really hold much water to me, because they were both massively above average players. And still far better then the best players. The fact that today's 3rd and 4th lines and bottom D are better then in 80's and 90's doesn't really affect them much. And the bigger, better goalies likely affects them less then one would think. The set up a lot of goals where they found teammates totally open. They both shot with absurd acuracy and made great decisions on when and where to shoot. They weren't just blasting pucks on the net very often.

You know, I agree. You describe well how Gretzky and Lemieux were so special and it's not that their competition was so bad. And yes, as sports go, 100m sprint and hockey are worlds apart. My point with the 100m analogy is about relative dominance over peers: before Bolt appeared on stage, no one thought it would be possible to be so dominant in a sport like 100m. The quality of competition was just too high, they said. It's statistically impossible to have one guy be so much faster than all the other living human beings, they said. And I thought they were right, I thought it was common sense. Until Bolt came and blew our collective minds on that fateful night in Beijing, August 2008.

That's the undeniable counter to the prevailing argument that no modern day player can be as dominant as Wayne Gretzky was, because the competition has gotten so much better. Wrong. We simply haven't seen a supertalent in hockey like Bolt is in sprinting. But there's nothing to prevent one from emerging some day.
 

Erik Alfredsson

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If there ever is a prospect of the levels of Lemieux or Gretzky, you will hear about them when they are like 10 years old.
 

daver

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OP is asking if we will ever see a player as "Great" as Gretzky Lemieux and my response was:

No, you might see a player who is "Better" but not "Greater" because there will never be an era so ripe for the picking. I am saying "Greatness" in the future is virutally impossible.

What was so ripe about the era that Wayne and Mario played in?

And how come other elite talents weren't able to separate themselves like Wayne and Mario?
 

Brownies

Registered User
Its weird that we never have child-prodigy defenceman like we do with forwards like Crosby and McDavid. We knew who they were when they were like 12 years old, I can't remember that ever happening for a D man.

I realize this thread is about forwards but we are witnessing an all time great in Karlsson right now. Appreciate him and watch him while you can, he is arguably the best player in the world today.

There's a selection in the minor rank. There's way more talented players who start playing hockey as a forward and simply stick there for their whole careers. Ask yourself, why is Russia producing so many skilled forward while having Dman like Emelin playing for their national team. Even Markov was drafted as a forward.
 

Brownies

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I'd argue that the average tennis player is better than 30 years ago, yet most people call Federer the greatest. Someone will come and be better than Wayne and Mario, both had some weaknesses that could be improved upon. Sid and Ovechkin are not the one, though.
 

tazzy19

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I don't think enough people watched this video. Gretzky in real time, not a highlight package in slow-motion replay....a different perspective of his talent in his prime.....no one today comes close to PRIME (Oilers) Gretzky....

Exactly right. Here is some raw footage of the Oilers playing the Redwings in 1987. Watch Gretzky. It's not just the 4 or 5 points he scores, it's the way he plays. He's doing things no one else on the ice is doing, skating in areas no one else is, and the puck just sort of follows him wherever he goes. It's surreal to watch. The play he makes around the 7:00 minute mark is beyond the imagination of any other player (somehow turning a 1 on 4 into a 3 on 1), and the goal he scores soon after is also an example of him seeing into the future (from the moment before he jumped off the bench)....

 

tazzy19

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If there ever is a prospect of the levels of Lemieux or Gretzky, you will hear about them when they are like 10 years old.
Exactly this.

Wayne Gretzky was a national celebrity by the time he was 10 years old, and was doing crazy things (like scoring his 1000th goal by age 11) well before he got to junior. The kid scored 378 goals in about 80 games at age 10. He was on all kinds of newspaper covers, TV spots, CBC Radio and TV, and was a well talked about phenom as a peewee. That hasn't happened with anyone else.
 

tazzy19

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Here is the famous CBC Radio interview of a 13 old Wayne Gretzky:

http://www.cbc.ca/archives/entry/1974-wayne-gretzky-rising-hockey-star

By the time of this 1974 interview with the CBC's Peter Gzowski, the 13-year-old is already a national icon. It's a role the teenaged wonder seems to be taking in stride. It's not surprising considering the hockey prodigy started skating at two, was nationally known at age five, began signing autographs by the time he was ten and had been the focus of countless newspaper articles and even a TV special by age 11. When asked if he's going to turn pro, the five-foot-two, 93-pound wonder tells Gzowski: "All I can say is I hope." "How much do you think you might be worth by the time you're 18? Would you believe a million dollars?" asks Gzowski. "No, not really," says Gretzky, his voice cracking. "I wish you could see the expression on Wayne's face, he's just sort of grinning and shaking his head," says Gzowski.
 

tazzy19

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Crosby have his first interview at 5 years old
But was he a national icon like Gretzky was at age 5? Did he get to meet Wayne Gretzky (the equivalent of Gordie Howe to Gretzky) at age 10?

And then Gretzky goes into the World Juniors as a 16 year old and DEMOLISHES everyone (including all the 19 year olds in their draft year) and wins the tournament MVP:

http://www.cbc.ca/sportslongform/entry/wayne-gretzky-never-thought-he-would-make-this-team

This was supposed to be a showcase for the 19 year olds. Back then, it was their draft year. But Gretzky stole the show. He won MVP honours with a tournament-leading eight goals and 17 points in six games, playing on a line with Tony McKegney and Wayne Babych.
 

OvermanKingGainer

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I don't think enough people watched this video. Gretzky in real time, not a highlight package in slow-motion replay....a different perspective of his talent in his prime.....no one today comes close to PRIME (Oilers) Gretzky....

Do you not see the beer league level of hockey being played?
 

tazzy19

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Mar 27, 2008
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Do you not see the beer league level of hockey being played?
Did you not see the likes of Steve Yzerman, Mark Messier, Joe Sakic, Doug Gimour, Dennis Savard, and Jari Kurri all scoring 200+ points a year in this beer league? Oh wait....they were around 70-120 points behind :help:
 

Readytostart

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Feb 19, 2016
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Its weird that we never have child-prodigy defenceman like we do with forwards like Crosby and McDavid. We knew who they were when they were like 12 years old, I can't remember that ever happening for a D man.

I realize this thread is about forwards but we are witnessing an all time great in Karlsson right now. Appreciate him and watch him while you can, he is arguably the best player in the world today.

Maybe it's a stretch, but Jay Bouwmeester was a surefire future superstar from the time he was 14. He fell off, but he was well-known.
Ekblad was exceptional and touted from the time he was around that age, too.

I understand what you're saying though, about "generational" defensemen destroying midget leagues and putting up six points per game. You don't see that.
 

Sens Rule

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Gretzky as a 16 year old. (Juniors could not be drafted into NHL until in they were turning 20 year olds)

Bobby Smith was drafted 1st overall after his 19 year old year. Set OHL points record of 192 points reg season. Gretzky 2nd at 16 as a rookie on a weaker team. 182 points. Still second best OHL season ever.

Smith OHL and playoffs and WJC:
80 games 85 goals 227 pts
Gretzky same
82 games 84 goals 225 pts
 

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