Are the World Juniors highlighting the growing weakness in International hockey?

[SchwenningerWildWing]

So the NFL is even more so of a minor sport?

Sure it is, I don't know a country outside of the US where Football is not a niche sport. So yes, I would say that football is more of a minor sport than hockey, hockey at least is olympic.

 

[canucksfan]

The fact that the tournament gets played on NA ice rather thn the big ice might slightly effect the results. I really believe that if this Canadian team played on big ice they wouldn't do that great.

 

[wjhl2009fan]

The fact that the tournament gets played on NA ice rather thn the big ice might slightly effect the results. I really believe that if this Canadian team played on big ice they wouldn't do that great.

Thats really not true they have played well on the big ice in the past.

 

[BobDobolina]

Canada has more players than all the europeans countries combined.

Yeah. Junior players by countries according to the IIHF:

Canada:472,978
US:293,274
Russia:50,980
Sweden:40,547
Finland:37,889
Czech:31,560
Switzerland:13,707
Slovakia:6,497

 

[BobDobolina]

The fact that the tournament gets played on NA ice rather thn the big ice might slightly effect the results. I really believe that if this Canadian team played on big ice they wouldn't do that great.

I think they would do fine but also Russia and Sweden especially would do better on big ice.

 

[Nordic*]

Since the European countries are much much smaller in land mass I assume you mean the European players taking
growth stunt stimulants to allow everyone more room in their countries?

I'm pretty sure that Russia is bigger in land mass, than both Canada and USA.

What you have to keep in mind is north american players work out every day for the most part and that is part of the reason the bigger.

I'm almost certain that players in the SEL are every bit as conditioned as the players in the NHL, perhaps even better.

And since the SEL uses bigger rinks the players are built/trained a little differently. Putting on more weight/muscles, means that you won't be able to skate as much as you need on the bigger ice surfaces.

 

[wjhl2009fan]

I'm pretty sure that Russia is bigger in land mass, than both Canada and USA.







I'm almost certain that players in the SEL are every bit as conditioned as the players in the NHL, perhaps even better.

And since the SEL uses bigger rinks the players are built/trained a little differently. Putting on more weight/muscles, means that you won't be able to skate as much as you need on the bigger ice surfaces.

Yes but don't for get some major jr teams play on big ice as well.

 

[Phil McKraken]

I'm pretty sure that Russia is bigger in land mass, than both Canada and USA.

Both Sweden and Finland are less densely populated than the US too.

 

[HuGo Sham]

Yeah. Junior players by countries according to the IIHF:

Canada:472,978
US:293,274
Russia:50,980
Sweden:40,547
Finland:37,889
Czech:31,560
Switzerland:13,707
Slovakia:6,497

canada has close to 500 000 Jr players in a country of 33 million. that's' ridiculous

 

[missinthejets]

I watched a little bit of Canada vs. Czech Repulic last night and could help notice that difference in size between the teams. It made me wonder about the amount of drugs that some of these kids are bound to be taking, and how that might have an effect on a tourney like this one.

doubtful, the CHL is a development league sure but they also put their teams together with the intention of winning... only guy from the small town I'm from who ended up playing in the WHL was a guy who at 14 years old had grown about as much as he ever did and was simply bigger than his peers... not a unique story and with such a large pool to pick from if Canada wants to (and they did want to this year) they can put together a team that is more physically mature than their peers.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

We dont ever want or need anything remotely like ur NTDP. Our country is considerably bigger in terms of geographical area, and our players/ hockey hotbeds are far less concentrated ( unlike urs which are heavily concentrated , for the most part, in a few North Eastern states ).

the NTDP works fairly well stateside ( although it does smack of putting all ur eggs in one basket ), the CHL works even better here. And if u think otherwise, we're game for a Best on Best Jr Summit Series some August vs ur Yankee Doodle Dandies ( a la the Canada v Russia Eight game Jr Summit ) .

Me thinks our boyz would spank urs silly, which would sure be sweet, esp after that unfortunate incident last year in Saskatoon

CHEERS YANKEES

You're not really counting the Yukon or Nunavut are you? 80% or more of Canadians live within 200 miles of the U.S. border so you're argument doesn't really make sense. In reality, Canada has it's "hotbeds": BC, West, Ontario, Quebec, and Atlantic. It just so happens that's the entire country! As for the U.S., the "hotbeds" are even more varied: New England, New York, Minnesota, Michigan, the NE, and now California.

 

[Zam Boni]

This is simply wrong. Looking at team sports worldwide, ice hockey will be relatively high up.

Simply put, outside of soccer and perhaps basketball, there are no team sports that are played in that many countries.

Ice hockey is top ten but definitely closer to the bottom of that list. It is largely depending on the definition of "major", but I have a hard time calling hockey a major sport. Outside of NA and northern Europe, "nobody" gives a rat's ass aboit hockey.

 

[MaNNe]

Don't forget a good number of europe player do play in north america so there use to the north american style.No just hosting the tournemant once and in a while won't help what needs to happen is a better system needs to be in place for jr players.

Don't know about the Swedish team, but Finnish team currently has Haula and Rissanen who play in NA. And historically the % of people playing in NA for the Finnish team isn't any higher than that. I imagine it'd be pretty much the same for the Swedes.

It does help the american teams a lot that the games are played in NA every year. Even if just for the home crowd.

 

[NHLHammerbound*]

You're not really counting the Yukon or Nunavut are you? 80% or more of Canadians live within 200 miles of the U.S. border so you're argument doesn't really make sense. In reality, Canada has it's "hotbeds": BC, West, Ontario, Quebec, and Atlantic. It just so happens that's the entire country! As for the U.S., the "hotbeds" are even more varied: New England, New York, Minnesota, Michigan, the NE, and now California.

My argument doesn't make sense eh ? Well, Maybe to the geographically challenged. U oh so cleverly focus on NOrth <->South, Conveniently neglecting East <-> West...Quite a long LONG way from NFLD to BC BUD. Really, the player pool for NTDP is far more geographically concentrated, compared to that for Hockey Canada, and that's not even debatable. There's some SIXTY teams in the CHL and they're certainly spread over a VAST REGION.

Not to change the subject. But isn't it high time for a CANADA v USA Jr Summit Series ? Whatya think Yank ?

 

[Davebo*]

That was news for me as well.

His pattern indicates two-dimensional thinking. -Spock

Growth can happen in other directions than 'up'.

 

[Phil McKraken]

Canada population:
34 million

% Canadian NHL players: ~50%

European Hockey Country (Russia, Sweden, Czech, Slovakia, Finland):
170 million

% Euro NHL Players: 25%

Throw out the larger talent pool argument.

Canada gets way ahead in percentage by having so many 4th and 3rd line scrubs in the NHL. There's no reason to bring scrubs of equal quality in from across the pond, since, in a relative sense, NHL scrubs aren't hard to find. Canada is probably still ahead even disregarding that, but just saying.

 

[thehumanpanda]

I belive its pretty simple.

USA and Canada are huge countries with alot of people living in them. They are bound to get more talents then the rest of the world.
And every countries has their good and bad years.

Sweden is an exception tho. Only 9 million people and 20% of them are foreigners.
Yet they produce alot of awesome players.

Finland are just having really bad years right now. And so on..

What does this have to do with anything. Or are you implying something about the foreigners in your country.

Good observations on OP. But we did see a good Canada/Russia game. I wonder if hockey in Europe is more of a trend, coming and going in popularity with whatever's happening in soccer.

In Canada, hockey is life, and you'll always get strong teams from over here because people keep playing.

 

[puck swami]

Yeah. Junior players by countries according to the IIHF:

Canada:472,978
US:293,274
Russia:50,980
Sweden:40,547
Finland:37,889
Czech:31,560
Switzerland:13,707
Slovakia:6,497

That's the number of youth and junior (non-senior players - 'Juvenile' in IHHF terms) in these countries. Junior players only (ages 17-20) would be a much smaller portion of these numbers, and is not broken out by the IIHF:
http://www.iihf.com/iihf-home/the-iihf/survey-of-players.html

 

[billycanuck]

IMO Canada and the US just has more depth on its rosters than the other teams at this age group. Lets not forget the Olympic results

(Gold, Silver, Bronze)
2010
Canada, USA, Finland
2006
Sweden, Finland, Czechs
2002
Canada, USA, Russia
1998
Czech, Russia, Finland

Hardly a domination by North American teams.

And how about the IIHF Men's World Championship
2010
Czech, Russia, Sweden
2009
Russia, Canada, Sweden
2008
Russia, Canada, Finland

Again no clear domination of North American teams.
IMO the WJC is not a clear indicator of hockey slipping away in the European markets, just that Canada and the US have the best U20 players on the planet to fill out 4 solid lines.

Now goaltending, well thats another story. IMO European countries are starting to develope better goaltenders than Canada and the US. But thats for another thread.

 

[Davebo*]

Canada gets way ahead in percentage by having so many 4th and 3rd line scrubs in the NHL. There's no reason to bring scrubs of equal quality in from across the pond, since, in a relative sense, NHL scrubs aren't hard to find. Canada is probably still ahead even disregarding that, but just saying.

Scrubs

Name the scrubs on the past Stanley Cup winning teams - there are none. Everyone contributes.

Go ahead - by all means - fill out the lineups of your favourite teams with 'scrubs'.

 

[PensFan101]

Am i the only one here who thinks that hosting the WJC every year in NA really hurts the European team chances. Canadian and American juniors are used to playing north american styled hockey, while Europeans tend to need a period to get used to it. Not to mention the fact that their coaches actually know some working tactics for the smaller ice.

Now i'm quite sure that if the tournaments were held once in awhile in Europe, we'd fare a lot better. Hats of to Sweden tho, who have been just simply amazing in recent years. And i think they have a good chance of winning gold in here.

I think you definitely have a point there. The typical expectation for an import player coming to play in the CHL is that it takes 1 year for them to truly adjust and we see their true ability at this level. Having to adjust a whole team to a different style in just a week or two is very difficult, especially when the top countries in the tournament don't have that problem.

An excellent example is Gabriel Landeskog. Heralded as one of Sweden's best forward prospects in a decade, he came over last year and was good. We saw what he could do, knew he was a promising young player. But now he's in that second year and is adjusted to the play style and lifestyle and he's absolutely exploded. The difference in his game is noticeable beyond the typical year to year growth of junior players.

While it's true that Canada has done well overseas, Canada is really the exception because they'll always be one of the medal threats, they'll always send great teams. However I think there's a legitimate argument to be made that the playing field would be leveled somewhat if the tournament went back to Europe a little more often.

Ultimately though the WJC is still a niche tournament that is absolutely humongous in Canada but very very unknown pretty much everywhere else (although the hockey viewing contingent in the US is becoming more exposed, but still...).

It comes down to money really... Having it in Europe does nothing to grow European junior programs, however if this tournament ever wants to become a relevant international event like the World Championships, then the IIHF really should try and grow it in Europe. But it's a hard sell.

 

[Drake1588]

This has been apparent since Canada began its long winning streak in 2005. The last time a country other than Canada or the US won this thing was 2003. It's now held in Canada two of every three years, and when it isn't, they try to put it in the US whenever possible, near the Canadian border.

The situation in many ways stems from Canada's interest in this tourney, vis-a-vis other countries. Canadians watch in droves, which means advertising and merchandise, which means the federation makes money, which gets pumped back into the program and into fielding highly competitive teams. This happens nowhere else.

It's different at the Olympic and World Championships levels, primarily because at those levels, more than one country fundamentally cares about those tournaments.

The US isn't truly invested, but the large population and wealth of the country means that at even a fraction of the Canadian interest in the tourney, the US can pump out some very good squads.

 

[Trotzig]

Youth and juniorplayers per nation;

1. Canada 325.432
2. USA 293.691
3. Russia 58.527
4. Sweden 41.104
5. Finland 36.411
6. Czech 32.623

Clearly, there is no mystery as to why some nations are deeper across several age-groups.

In the end though, it only means the smaller countries have to nurture their talents to the extreme - they can't really afford to lose any of them.
Alas, a hockey team consists of 23(?) players which is enourmously less then the amount of active players in each and every country.

 

[Phil McKraken]

Scrubs

Name the scrubs on the past Stanley Cup winning teams - there are none. Everyone contributes.

Go ahead - by all means - fill out the lineups of your favourite teams with 'scrubs'.

As someone who watches both leagues regularly I can say that pretty much every team in the SEL (and the KHL) has a few players which are better than a few players on most NHL teams. Niklas Sundström >>> Jake Dowell.

 

[Man Bear Pig]

I think you are really on to something here but remember that in many European countries (ie Sweden) junior players are developed at slower pace than in the US/Canada hence the difference in quality.

I watched a little bit of Canada vs. Czech Repulic last night and could help notice that difference in size between the teams. It made me wonder about the amount of drugs that some of these kids are bound to be taking, and how that might have an effect on a tourney like this one.

Drugs seriously? I mean, obviously there are some users out there but the vast majority of hockey players don't touch them. All the people that I know who use or have used them are baseball players, football players or weightlifters. Performance enhancers don't really exist in hockey and the NHL is proof of that. There's been what, 2 or 3 players ever caught? It's just not part of the culture like it is in other sports. As far as size goes, it's pretty simple really. Canada and the U.S have plenty of players to choose from, hundreds of thousands of kids are registered players across the countries and Canada especially plays a different style where physicality and size are crucial as opposed to European hockey where all the focus is on skill and skating. It's two completely different styles of hockey and drugs are not an issue. Besides, in most European hockey countries the average man is actually taller then North Americans.

By average-(wikipedia)

Canadian males-5'9 1/2

U.S(white Americans)-5'10 1/2

Finland-5'11

Germany-5'11 1/2

Norway-5'10 1/2

Sweden-5'11 1/2

Czech-5'11

And so on.