Are the World Juniors highlighting the growing weakness in International hockey?

[Ward Cornell]

The fact that the tournament gets played on NA ice rather thn the big ice might slightly effect the results. I really believe that if this Canadian team played on big ice they wouldn't do that great.

I have zero sympathy for the teams or countries using this excuse about the size of ice surface.
They decided to re-invent the wheel much to their detriment now!
They reaped what they sew!

Canada has won plenty on the large ice surface.
I would imagine a majority of Canadas Gold has been won on the large ice surface.

 

[cheerupmurray]

Sweden had a babyboom 1989-1991 which leads to more hockeyplayers born those years. This together with the improvement of the developement system created a couple of strong draftclasses. I don´t expect Sweden to continue having drafts like 2009. The birth rate then kept sinking to an all time low at the end of the decade before it picked up again. I seriously thinks things like this influence how strong countries are at the junior level.

 

[Ward Cornell]

I'm pretty sure that Russia is bigger in land mass, than both Canada and USA.

Russia is Asia hence I stated European!

 

[Slimmy]

Volleyball is hugely more popular than hockey, and I mean hugely. It is only behind soccer and basketball.

Isn't Rugby bigger aswell? Huge in South-Africa, New Zealand, Australia, Brittain, Ireland, France etc.

 

[jordan7hm]

It goes in cycles.

Based on participation rates (and commitment level) Canada should do better than most other countries. Hockey is everything for a large portion of our country.

That said, the last five-ten years have been really good. It probably won't continue like this. You see it already with our goaltender development. The last very strong goalie to play for Canada was Price and that was a number of years ago.

Because of the commitment of the young player (and their parents) we will always have an advantage, or at least until the US gets a stronger development system built, but the athletes still need to be there. When you only ice 20 players it doesn't take that many great athletes to make the difference between a team winning and losing. Another Forsberg, another Bure, another Crosby or Kane and it's a whole different ballgame for any the major powers in this tourney. (a player like that still wouldn't be enough for Slovakia or the Czechs though... this has become a five team tourney)

 

[CPFC]

I think it's more about Canada and US getting the to point where they should be.

Think of the resources Canada has when it comes to hockey. More licensed players than all of Europe combined and a GDP that matches countries like Sweden and Finland. The US also has huge advantage in the amount of players available. This gap in talent pool is even more pronounced in junior competitions.

With these facts in mind, it's not suprising if Canada and the US will proceed to dominate the international scene. The European clubs will have to rely on excellent coaching and sound team effort in order to match the NA clubs. These are the reasons why Finland, for example, has managed to succeed in recent years, despite the relative lack of top calibre players.

So, it's not so much about the weakening of European countries, as it is about the realization of the resources that Canada and the US possess.

 

[wjhl2009fan]

Isn't Rugby bigger aswell? Huge in South-Africa, New Zealand, Australia, Brittain, Ireland, France etc.

No rugby and cricket i would not says are bigger then hockey.

 

[Tricolore#20]

This has been an interesting trend that I have noticed over the last decade as well. Certainly, the Swedish juniors have been competitive over the last 3 or 4 years, however in the years before that, there was legitimate concern on this forum regarding Swedish hockey (this was before Torino I believe).

The Czechs and Slovak teams have been very non-competitive at this tournament since the early part of this century. The Russians have also faded in recent years. Someone brought up the point that having this tournament in North America so frequently in recent years may account for the lack of success of European teams. I think that is a valid point. Home teams tend to perform better, it is a well established trend.

However, I also wonder whether the emergence of European football over the last two decades (really, since the advent of the Champions League) has been detrimental to European hockey. The Champions League has really brought a worldwide appeal to the European game, and even small nations send teams to compete in the competition. There is great incentive to develop a good football program, as opposed to a good hockey program. Football has really grown throughout Europe as a result in the last 2 decades. All of the strong ice hockey nations (except for Finland) have competitive national football teams, and the star players on those teams are recognized on an international level and play for top clubs (Rosicky, Cech, Arshavin, Pavyluchenko, Zlatan, Hamsik, Skrtel, etc.)

I wonder whether the World Cup being awarded to Russia in 2018 will weaken Russian hockey infrastructure. Over the last 4 or 5 years, Russian football has been improving at the national and club levels, and there seems to be increased investment in it from private business. With the World Cup, I wonder if most of the sporting infrastructure in that country will be redirected into football, since it is going to be hosting the biggest sporting event on the planet, and will have pressure to impress. That could put KHL expansion plans on hold in the interim.

 

[Tricolore#20]

No rugby and cricket i would not says are bigger then hockey.

Cricket is massive in India, which has a population of a billion people. It also has a strong presence in England, Australia, South Africa, Pakistan, Bangladesh and the West Indies. I can assure you there are more cricket fans worldwide than ice hockey fans.

 

[Very Stable Genius]

No rugby and cricket i would not says are bigger then hockey.

I beg to differ. Cricket is huge in Southeast Asia, India, Pakistan etc... The total populations of those countries combined with support in Australia, England South Africa make it bigger than Hockey by quite a margin.

 

[Bakayoko Ono]

No rugby and cricket i would not says are bigger then hockey.

Cricket is the most popular sport in India and Pakistan and also popular in the UK and Australia. It's obviously much bigger sport than hockey.

Globally, hockey is a minor sport. There's more hockey players in Canada than in all other countries of the world(excluding the US) combined.

 

[McNasty]

I think another thing to consider is that Europeans who are highly skilled players are likely playing in professionally instead of Amateur. Great players in juniors are heavily relied upon, while younger players are generally brought up to speed gradually at higher levels. North American hockey presents a much bigger competitive balance for young players, as playing against grown men is a significantly different game IMO.

 

[Tricolore#20]

The other thing about cricket is that it is going to become even more popular in coming years with the introduction of 20/20 cricket, and we are starting to see a solid league structure in the Indian Premier League. In only 4 years of existing, the IPL is emerging as a global brand and has strong following in UK and South Africa. IPL players make more money than any other sport on average, except the NBA.

But of course, this has very limited effect on hockey, since no hockey-playing nation is a cricket-playing nation, and vice versa.

 

[wjhl2009fan]

Cricket is massive in India, which has a population of a billion people. It also has a strong presence in England, Australia, South Africa, Pakistan, Bangladesh and the West Indies. I can assure you there are more cricket fans worldwide than ice hockey fans.

In india it is but its not massive world wide in terms of people playing it.Were not talking about attendance were talking more of playing the sport in terms of how many play it etc.

 

[wjhl2009fan]

I beg to differ. Cricket is huge in Southeast Asia, India, Pakistan etc... The total populations of those countries combined with support in Australia, England South Africa make it bigger than Hockey by quite a margin.

Its still beeing played in a few countries thats the point it really has little to do with population but is it beeing played world wide.I don't doubt down the road it may be bigger world wide pro league etc in places such as canada the states and mexico.

 

[Tricolore#20]

In india it is but its not massive world wide in terms of people playing it.Were not talking about attendance were talking more of playing the sport in terms of how many play it etc.

Really? How many countries in the world have ice rinks? How many people in the world can actually afford hockey equipment? You think more people play ice-hockey worldwide than cricket?

You are so wrong on this point, I'll leave it at that.

 

[wjhl2009fan]

Really? How many countries in the world have ice rinks? How many people in the world can actually afford hockey equipment? You think more people play ice-hockey worldwide than cricket?

You are so wrong on this point, I'll leave it at that.

I never said that all i am saying is some said hockey is not played in every country so its minor league what i am saying is you could apply that to almost every sport but soccer.

 

[Rogalo]

Czech youth hockey

Sweden had a babyboom 1989-1991 which leads to more hockeyplayers born those years. This together with the improvement of the developement system created a couple of strong draftclasses. I don´t expect Sweden to continue having drafts like 2009. The birth rate then kept sinking to an all time low at the end of the decade before it picked up again. I seriously thinks things like this influence how strong countries are at the junior level.

It´s exactly how you wrote it. In CZE we are only now - under new management of the hockey federation - making changes in the development system. Reorganising junior leagues in order for them to be more competitive, more funding and seminars for coaches, more confrontation with top level countries (= no more useless matches with Poland or Hungary...), more cooperation with schools (specialised schools concentrating on hockey lost a lot of funding after 1989 from the state).

S. Lener (director and head coach of Czech national teams) strongly believes we will see some results in 5 - 10 years time. However all of this will cost money and lack of it is a huge problem in CZE and SVK for that matter. On top of that there is no agreement between IIHF and NHL concerning the Czech players leaving to North America. The Czech clubs are basically not compensated unless the young players are not under a contract. Which happened to the club Vítkovice with Mrázek and Polášek (Czech U-20 national team players) for example...Losing this kind of money in the current economy in CZE is almost murder for Czech clubs:-(

Another very important issue - which I dont believe is that important in Finland or Sweden for example - is corruption. Coaches being paid for more icetime of players, nomination of less talented individuals, protectionism etc.). And that...well...is a tough one That is not going away any time soon.

But it will change over time. We must not lose hope. Hockey has a huge tradition both in CZE and SVK. But don´t expect any Jagrs, Hašeks, Gaboriks or Hossas anytime soon.

 

[joshjull]

Cricket is the most popular sport in India and Pakistan and also popular in the UK and Australia. It's obviously much bigger sport than hockey.

Globally, hockey is a minor sport. There's more hockey players in Canada than in all other countries of the world(excluding the US) combined.

Reading the debate about where hockey ranks among world team sports in popularity has been bizarre. Since its irrelevant to the topic at hand. I mean did posters really think the popularity of cricket in the world is impacting the junior development in Finland? Sweden? etc.


What is relevant is hockey's popularity in the countries the OP has suggested are falling behind in their junior development.

 

[joshjull]

It´s exactly how you wrote it. In CZE we are only now - under new management of the hockey federation - making changes in the development system. Reorganising junior leagues in order for them to be more competitive, more funding and seminars for coaches, more confrontation with top level countries (= no more useless matches with Poland or Hungary...), more cooperation with schools (specialised schools concentrating on hockey lost a lot of funding after 1989 from the state).

S. Lener (director and head coach of Czech national teams) strongly believes we will see some results in 5 - 10 years time. However all of this will cost money and lack of it is a huge problem in CZE and SVK for that matter. On top of that there is no agreement between IIHF and NHL concerning the Czech players leaving to North America. The Czech clubs are basically not compensated unless the young players are not under a contract. Which happened to the club Vítkovice with Mrázek and Polášek (Czech U-20 national team players) for example...Losing this kind of money in the current economy in CZE is almost murder for Czech clubs:-(

Another very important issue - which I dont believe is that important in Finland or Sweden for example - is corruption. Coaches being paid for more icetime of players, nomination of less talented individuals, protectionism etc.). And that...well...is a tough one That is not going away any time soon.

But it will change over time. We must not lose hope. Hockey has a huge tradition both in CZE and SVK. But don´t expect any Jagrs, Hašeks, Gaboriks or Hossas anytime soon.

During the Canada/Czech game they were talking about the Czech's trying to get their junior players to commit to 5yr deals with club teams? So that if they did leave the club team or the Czech ice hockey federation would get compensated. Could you explain what they were talking about?

 

[1912]

Reading the debate about where hockey ranks among world team sports in popularity has been bizarre. Since its irrelevant to the topic at hand. I mean did posters really think the popularity of cricket in the world is impacting the junior development in Finland? Sweden? etc.


What is relevant is hockey's popularity in the countries the OP has suggested are falling behind in their junior development.

No but soccer might be a factor. We have one of the worst leagues in Europe and is ranked at 35th place on the UEFA ranking. Yet soccer is the most popular sport in Sweden.

I think the point they were trying to make is that other sports grow significantly more rapid than hockey. One of the factors being the geographical limitations of an ice based sport.

 

[J17 Vs Proclamation]

The other thing about cricket is that it is going to become even more popular in coming years with the introduction of 20/20 cricket, and we are starting to see a solid league structure in the Indian Premier League. In only 4 years of existing, the IPL is emerging as a global brand and has strong following in UK and South Africa. IPL players make more money than any other sport on average, except the NBA.

But of course, this has very limited effect on hockey, since no hockey-playing nation is a cricket-playing nation, and vice versa.

Not really. Firstly, the creation of 20/20 isn't attracting any new nations to the sport. We still have the same powerbase in Cricket as we did twenty years ago. Bangladesh will inevitably become an elite nation because of the sheer population and interest. There are no other emerging cricket nations ; Ireland hardly count, Kenya hardly count. The sub contintent has no other candidates, North American cricket hardly exists and European cricket likewise.

As exciting as 20/20 is, it is also damaging the Test format significantly. There is virtually no mid-term cricket growth potential outside the already elite nations.

 

[Slimmy]

Reading the debate about where hockey ranks among world team sports in popularity has been bizarre. Since its irrelevant to the topic at hand. I mean did posters really think the popularity of cricket in the world is impacting the junior development in Finland? Sweden? etc.


What is relevant is hockey's popularity in the countries the OP has suggested are falling behind in their junior development.

Which is why I think Rugby qualifies. Sweden has the perfect conditions for it IE climate, proximity to other nations where the sport is popular (England, France) and so on. I wouldn't really be suprized if the number of rugby players in the world exceeds that of hockey by a margin.

 

[joshjull]

No but soccer might be a factor. We have one of the worst leagues in Europe and is ranked at 35th place on the UEFA ranking. Yet soccer is the most popular sport in Sweden.

I think the point they were trying to make is that other sports grow significantly more rapid than hockey. One of the factors being the geographical limitations of an ice based sport.

The discussion veered away from relevance when it started to get into cricket and other commonwealth sports.

I agree soccer would have an impact. But I think its truly just a numbers game. Canada and the USA have far more players to pull from thus giving them and advanatge in a tourney like the world juniors. But as others pointed out when the pool of players is all ages the Europeans do far better.


As an aside I've always wondered why Norway has never really had much of a hockey program as opposed to their neighbors Sweden and Finland. My sister in law is from Stavangar. She has said its never really been a popular sport and was viewed by some as a sport for thugs. The more popular sports were soccer, the alpine sports and handball. I can't remember if it was my sister in law or someone on here that mentioned the big difference from Sweden/Finland was how Norway invested in their sporting infrastructure. Norway spent a good deal on the alpine sports and their development which accounts for their huge success in those sports internationally over the years. But spends very little on hockey and its development.

 

[Stats01]

I would say the only countries that really have to start being concerned are the Czech's and Russia. The Czech's have completely dropped off the map when it comes to producing NHL'ers and especially young elite talent. They've done horribly at the WJHC for a while now. and have only medaled once in the past what? 7 or 8 years? Russia on the other hand has seen it's NHL player pool decline tremendously over the past 5 or 6 years. They showed a graph of it during a game on TSN a couple of days ago. And IMO Russia and it's system are to blame. If the big hunchos who run these Russian teams stopped being so greedy with their agendas and started to really put an effort to develop these kids then you would start to see them developing more quality players. Russia is a huge country and there is no excuse to not be able to develop young hockey players. Both circumstances are different but both countries should be extremely concerned with where their developmental system is at and where it is going.