News Article: Are the Kings being proactive enough in their rebuild?

[KINGS17]

Are the Kings being too patient in their rebuild or should...

“I think they believe they can sit back and just take the high picks that come their way. These rebuilds take forever if you’re not proactive,” a general manager said. “I think they’ve (Kings veterans) lost significant value.”

The Kings are likely to part with some of their older assets at some point — either by trade or letting their contracts run out, or even by buying them out — but have they missed their window on maximizing a return? The answer seems to be yes, but it also depends on whether Blake is able to work some negotiation magic and if some of the players can find their games again on this floundering team.

Jeff Carter is the only veteran whose play has gotten better from a year ago, even if his numbers haven’t improved. But he’s not seen as a guy other GMs desperately need. At least not right now.

“Even Carter won’t garner much asset value,” the GM said.

And that’s if Carter will allow a trade. Last season, he was rumored to have threatened retirement if dealt from the Kings.

“Carter rejected trades last year, wants to finish in L.A.” an NHL team scout said.

Maybe some of you can now understand the logic in trading Carter when he still had plenty of term and money on his contract? Especially after Kopitar crapped the bed in 2016-17, the year after he signed his deal.

Click to read more...

 

[Peter James Bond II]

Yes, 9 years ago this week, I recall the Carter contract...and thought, man he's not going to be producing those last 2 or 3 years...I FEEL BAD FOR PHILLY.....er, I mean...I feel bad for King fans.

Nov 13, 2010

• ESPN

The Philadelphia Flyers have signed star forward Jeff Carter to a multiyear extension, the team confirmed Saturday.
Carter and the Flyers agreed to an 11-year, $58 million contract extension, a source confirmed to ESPN.com
Carter, 25, was slated to become a restricted free agent July 1.
Carter, a center who plays the occasional wing, scored a career-high 46 goals two years ago and had 33 goals last season. He has eight goals and six assists in 16 games going into Saturday night's game against Florida.
"He's an integral part of the core of our hockey team," Flyers general manager Paul Holmgren said. "This took a little bit of time to get done, but we're happy to have it done. We look forward to seeing him score lots of goals for the next number of years."

 

[Statto]

It’s an easy decision with hindsight. You take away the injury and he’s probably a very moveable asset at last years TDL to a contender as well as this year. Who knows maybe he’d have retired if traded after 16-17, maybe that’s why he was never moved.

We get you think he should have been traded, as you stated it over and over, but as things stood at the time there was also a strong argument that keeping him made sense. Moving him was far from being an obvious, no brainer move.

 

[Statto]

Yes, 9 years ago this week, I recall the Carter contract...and thought, man he's not going to be producing those last 2 or 3 years...I FEEL BAD FOR PHILLY.....er, I mean...I feel bad for King fans.

Nov 13, 2010

• ESPN

The Philadelphia Flyers have signed star forward Jeff Carter to a multiyear extension, the team confirmed Saturday.
Carter and the Flyers agreed to an 11-year, $58 million contract extension, a source confirmed to ESPN.com
Carter, 25, was slated to become a restricted free agent July 1.
Carter, a center who plays the occasional wing, scored a career-high 46 goals two years ago and had 33 goals last season. He has eight goals and six assists in 16 games going into Saturday night's game against Florida.
"He's an integral part of the core of our hockey team," Flyers general manager Paul Holmgren said. "This took a little bit of time to get done, but we're happy to have it done. We look forward to seeing him score lots of goals for the next number of years."

He was aging well through that contract, right up until the Achilles injury. That made all the difference.

 

[DryIslandBartender]

“I think they believe they can sit back and just take the high picks that come their way. These rebuilds take forever if you’re not proactive,” a general manager said. “I think they’ve (Kings veterans) lost significant value.”

Laughable.

AEG isn’t going to allow Doughty, Quick and Kopitar to be traded because they still have value and sell tickets. On the whole, the hunger is gone for all of these veterans. Reminds me of Rocky III where he lost the eye of the tiger, didn’t have the hunger. That’s exactly what happened here and unfortunately we don’t have Mickey scheduling cupcakes for the Kings to mask the suck.

It isn’t about winning anymore, it was for a brief moment but we got guys running the organization with zero experience in rebuilding, (heck building a team) negotiations, development etc.

Which brings me to another point, if AEG is sticking with these players to the end, how in Sam Hill will they ever get rid of Luc and Blake?

Sad reality is, the organization from top to bottom is a country club atmosphere. Everyone job is safe, no real expectations, just collect your check and go about your day.

I feel sorry for anyone that has season tickets or spends a lot of money on this organization. The fact the Kings won’t even TRY to rebuild is a ridiculous. Total ripoff operation.

 

[KINGS17]

It’s an easy decision with hindsight. You take away the injury and he’s probably a very moveable asset at last years TDL to a contender as well as this year. Who knows maybe he’d have retired if traded after 16-17, maybe that’s why he was never moved.

We get you think he should have been traded, as you stated it over and over, but as things stood at the time there was also a strong argument that keeping him made sense. Moving him was far from being an obvious, no brainer move.

I agree, other teams may have bitten on a trade last season had Carter never been injured. I think the thing most of us overlook though is the way his contract is structured, Carter wouldn't be leaving that much money on the table if he retired instead accepting a trade.

There are never any no-brainer moves, but hope is not a plan. My contention is management should have been able to see the developing trend and could have been more proactive. After all, that's their job.

 

[KINGS17]

He was aging well through that contract, right up until the Achilles injury. That made all the difference.

The issue wasn't Carter's play before his injuries, it was more about what purpose he was going to serve on this roster in terms of the team being in contention.

 

[kingsholygrail]

You can't fill your entire roster with rookies ffs.

 

[KINGS17]

You can't fill your entire roster with rookies ffs.

You wouldn't have to fill your roster completely with rookies.

A) The Kings would be taking back a player in any trade with some significant cap hit and experience to allow any of the King's vets to fit under their cap.
B) Serviceable UFAs are out there every summer.
C) No one has ever said trade every vet.

 

[kingsholygrail]

You wouldn't have to fill your roster completely with rookies.

A) The Kings would be taking back a player in any trade with some significant cap hit and experience to allow any of the King's vets to fit under their cap.
B) Serviceable UFAs are out there every summer.
C) No one has ever said trade every vet.

But you're not getting much for those guys. If you're just swapping one bad contract for another, why bother? These guys at least have a history with the team and there's value there. Bringing in some other aging vet that can't contribute for what a 7th rounder? You're not getting 1sts or 2nds.

 

[DryIslandBartender]

You can't fill your entire roster with rookies ffs.

Honestly, I don’t advocate that idea....

BUT

How’s that worse than the paycheck vets we have to watch all season?

 

[DoktorJeep]

The lack of roster turnover is a problem. To have kept all of Toffoli, Lewis, Clifford and Martinez this long hasn’t improved their trade values.

But it has taken minutes and spots from Grundstrom, Wagner, Amadio, Walker, Luff and Prokhorkin.

 

[DryIslandBartender]

But you're not getting much for those guys. If you're just swapping one bad contract for another, why bother? These guys at least have a history with the team and there's value there. Bringing in some other aging vet that can't contribute for what a 7th rounder? You're not getting 1sts or 2nds.

I don’t think the Kings will be swapping 8 year 10 million aav contracts, the contracts we’ll take on will be because Kopitar/Doughty can’t fit under any teams cap.

 

[KINGS17]

But you're not getting much for those guys. If you're just swapping one bad contract for another, why bother? These guys at least have a history with the team and there's value there. Bringing in some other aging vet that can't contribute for what a 7th rounder? You're not getting 1sts or 2nds.

I agree at this point the Kings wouldn't be getting much for their vets with the exception of Doughty, and maybe Kopitar. What Blake has to do now is find the ones with the most value on the trade market and move them out.

While some of the vets have a history with the cup winning teams, they also have a history over the last four seasons. Some of them are not the leaders management thought they were, so it's time to move on.

Some of this is water under the bridge, which is pretty much what the article suggests. It's too late now.

 

[Statto]

The issue wasn't Carter's play before his injuries, it was more about what purpose he was going to serve on this roster in terms of the team being in contention.

You need decent vets for the kids to play with. I’d much rather they learn from guys that were key pieces of our cup wins than some random vet. If we picked up some trash with bad contracts the bitching on here would be dire.

We needed the Mike Richards trade to teach our guys what winning was and how to pay the price to do that. Whilst I don’t think anyone here would bring what Richards did, I think as a group they can. I’m happy with the idea of the kids learning from the likes of Drew, Brown, Kopi and maybe even Carter too. The rest can go, but those guys are a good group of winners, good pros to build around. I think expectations on them currently are too high as they have little to play with. However, once we add several elite prospects to that group we will see their value.

 

[Statto]

I agree at this point the Kings wouldn't be getting much for their vets with the exception of Doughty, and maybe Kopitar. What Blake has to do now is find the ones with the most value on the trade market and move them out.

While some of the vets have a history with the cup winning teams, they also have a history over the last four seasons. Some of them are not the leaders management thought they were, so it's time to move on.

Some of this is water under the bridge, which is pretty much what the article suggests. It's too late now.

But who will want them? There is no market for them, not unless we add picks which won’t happen.

Apart from Toffoli, I don’t see why anyone wants any of the players we want to see traded. They provide nothing anyone needs. Toffoli maybe, but even then on current form at best we get a late 2nd round pick for him.

Tell me where the market is for the rest, I just don’t see it.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Funny enough the article goes on to say Carter is their most tradeable asset and that some other guys, notably Martinez, will garner a good return.

Sooooo the article doesn't really support the bullshit finger wagging "I told you so" in the OP the way you think it does, and the rest of it doesn't say anything we haven't discussed ad nauseum lately.

Besides that, it also mentions the obvious, that trading guys last season was stupid, that Blake really has no choice but to hope some of these guys regain value away from Willie D...and if that doesn't happen, it's just the same situation as last season minus one contract year. If we all knew this was a blank check/throwaway year, why is it suddenly a problem?

Finally, there's this:

"It’s also entirely possible that Blake and the Kings didn’t miss an opportunity to make the necessary changes to maximize the team’s rebuild. Colorado general manager Joe Sakic was patient for a long time with Matt Duchene, then got an excellent haul from the Ottawa Senators for the center. Now the Avalanche is one of the best young teams in the NHL and is set up for several years, thanks in part to Sakic’s ability to block out the noise around him (like media stories about trades) and focus on making the best deal(s) possible as he rebuilt his group."

 

[King'sPawn]

Funny enough the article goes on to say Carter is their most tradeable asset and that some other guys, notably Martinez, will garner a good return.

Sooooo the article doesn't really support the bull**** finger wagging "I told you so" in the OP the way you think it does, and the rest of it doesn't say anything we haven't discussed ad nauseum lately.

Besides that, it also mentions the obvious, that trading guys last season was stupid, that Blake really has no choice but to hope some of these guys regain value away from Willie D...and if that doesn't happen, it's just the same situation as last season minus one contract year. If we all knew this was a blank check/throwaway year, why is it suddenly a problem?

Finally, there's this:

"It’s also entirely possible that Blake and the Kings didn’t miss an opportunity to make the necessary changes to maximize the team’s rebuild. Colorado general manager Joe Sakic was patient for a long time with Matt Duchene, then got an excellent haul from the Ottawa Senators for the center. Now the Avalanche is one of the best young teams in the NHL and is set up for several years, thanks in part to Sakic’s ability to block out the noise around him (like media stories about trades) and focus on making the best deal(s) possible as he rebuilt his group."

To add:
- It references an article about Carter threatening to retire which has since been debunked
- It discusses maximizing value out of assets.

Yes. We get it. Trading away veterans sooner rather than later maximizes their value.

For the last ****ing time, WE UNDERSTAND THAT LOGIC. What *some* fail to understand is this is more than just managing value. It's managing people, and personnel. It's putting people in a position to do well and succeed, even when you aren't a contender.

The answer to all this is "Well, trade some vets for value, sign some crappy vets in their place. Who cares, because the team sucks. Pigeonhole some young players in their place. They'll either get it or they won't. It doesn't matter because the faster we suck the faster we get good."

This thread, and the OP, is more so some people can stroke their own ego and take a jab at others who incorporate a degree of emotion into management over pure asset management.

I don't know why I keep letting myself get sucked into these debates. I'm done arguing on this ****.

 

[DoktorJeep]

Good for Joe Sakic, congrats on the patience. Too bad we don’t have a prime MacKinnon.

 

[deeshamrock]

“I think they believe they can sit back and just take the high picks that come their way. These rebuilds take forever if you’re not proactive,” a general manager said. “I think they’ve (Kings veterans) lost significant value.”

He's right. This started with Dean Lombardi, not being able to see the inevitable. And the pieces that are left, that the Kings are shopping, aren't going to net much. Whatever draft picks they get will help rebuild the farm. They've drafted well, have a nice pool of young talent brewing, that will should continue to grow over the next several years
But few teams (Boston is one I can think of ) can do a quick turnaround.
As for Carter, and the thought to trade him before the injury, he made it clear he wanted to retire a King so that wouldn't have changed much.
So this is what they are, a team that has a bright future down the road but a murky bunch of middle years in the meantime.

 

[KINGS17]

Funny enough the article goes on to say Carter is their most tradeable asset and that some other guys, notably Martinez, will garner a good return.

Sooooo the article doesn't really support the bull**** finger wagging "I told you so" in the OP the way you think it does, and the rest of it doesn't say anything we haven't discussed ad nauseum lately.

Besides that, it also mentions the obvious, that trading guys last season was stupid, that Blake really has no choice but to hope some of these guys regain value away from Willie D...and if that doesn't happen, it's just the same situation as last season minus one contract year. If we all knew this was a blank check/throwaway year, why is it suddenly a problem?

Finally, there's this:

"It’s also entirely possible that Blake and the Kings didn’t miss an opportunity to make the necessary changes to maximize the team’s rebuild. Colorado general manager Joe Sakic was patient for a long time with Matt Duchene, then got an excellent haul from the Ottawa Senators for the center. Now the Avalanche is one of the best young teams in the NHL and is set up for several years, thanks in part to Sakic’s ability to block out the noise around him (like media stories about trades) and focus on making the best deal(s) possible as he rebuilt his group."

You had one executive saying Carter may have value. You had a scout and a GM saying Carter doesn't have much value, if he would even accept a trade.

Get whatever you can for Martinez while there is still time.

 

[KINGS17]

To add:
- It references an article about Carter threatening to retire which has since been debunked
- It discusses maximizing value out of assets.

Yes. We get it. Trading away veterans sooner rather than later maximizes their value.

For the last ****ing time, WE UNDERSTAND THAT LOGIC. What *some* fail to understand is this is more than just managing value. It's managing people, and personnel. It's putting people in a position to do well and succeed, even when you aren't a contender.

The answer to all this is "Well, trade some vets for value, sign some crappy vets in their place. Who cares, because the team sucks. Pigeonhole some young players in their place. They'll either get it or they won't. It doesn't matter because the faster we suck the faster we get good."

This thread, and the OP, is more so some people can stroke their own ego and take a jab at others who incorporate a degree of emotion into management over pure asset management.

I don't know why I keep letting myself get sucked into these debates. I'm done arguing on this ****.

Pot meet kettle. You do it all the time buddy.

 

[deeshamrock]

Good for Joe Sakic, congrats on the patience. Too bad we don’t have a prime MacKinnon.

It's hard to believe how quickly they turned it around, 2016-17, they had 56 loses and started the next year, huge roster turnover (12 new faces, and 17 gone)
Fired Roy and hired a coach that had a vision (to get younger and faster) and put it to work
Biggest turnaround was MacKinnon exploding into the impact player he's become, he works out with and has the same trainer as Crosby. He's 205 lbs and 7 percent body fat. He's scoring per shots over the last 2 years he's converted 12.3% of his shots into 80 goals, league average is 9.
He's a remarkable player and only 23. They are the youngest team in the NHL (average age under 26)

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Good for Joe Sakic, congrats on the patience. Too bad we don’t have a prime MacKinnon.

Guess we forgot that part where they were floating around the basement for most of the five years prior, and the year they ended up winning the lotto for MacKinnon, they were floating out JS Giguere, Milan Hejduk, Chuck Kobasew, Jan Hejda, Shane O'Brien...and the three Cs they'd eventually trade/lose later in ROR, Stastny, Duchene.

In other words, turned out that just drafting guys like ROR Stastny Duchene et. al. and just throwing a bunch of youth into the fire with a bunch of crappy UFA vets (and bless Milan Hejduk, didn't mean to lump him in there) didn't help the Avalanche get out of the basement...thanks for the support for my premise. Thumbs up!

This is all so dumb because the vast majority of us agree on about 95% of the actual issue.

 

[kingsboy11]

Guess we forgot that part where they were floating around the basement for most of the five years prior, and the year they ended up winning the lotto for MacKinnon, they were floating out JS Giguere, Milan Hejduk, Chuck Kobasew, Jan Hejda, Shane O'Brien...and the three Cs they'd eventually trade/lose later in ROR, Stastny, Duchene.

In other words, turned out that just drafting guys like ROR Stastny Duchene et. al. and just throwing a bunch of youth into the fire with a bunch of crappy UFA vets (and bless Milan Hejduk, didn't mean to lump him in there) didn't help the Avalanche get out of the basement...thanks for the support for my premise. Thumbs up!

This is all so dumb because the vast majority of us agree on about 95% of the actual issue.

There's a reason why I don't participate in this discussion because its been beaten to death for the last 4 years and I'm sick of it. In regards to the article, it doesn't tell us anything that we didn't already know so whats the big deal?