Are the Blackhawks the team that the Penguins were supposed to be?

[Til the End of Time]

this topic is taken from a thread on the playoff board. i thought it was an pertinent question that could lead to some interesting discussion so i wanted to ask the same question here.

simply, are the blackhawks the team that the penguins were supposed to be?

there are many ways to frame this discussion, but i felt these quotes were quite appropriate.

Outside of injury riddled Malkin, Crosby, and Letang the last few years they have nobody. Depth wins championships.

Both teams should have been the 'Hawks, but only one team actually fulfilled its destiny and built its team the right way.

Pens' management with a comedy of errors from the moment they lifted the Cup in '09 until now. Incompetence through and through from the previous regime to the current one, all the while leaving two guys in Malkin and Crosby - the two guys who keep them from being a lottery team every year - holding the bag.

Honestly, one of the biggest differences between the Blackhawks and Penguins relative success has been the durability of their two offensive stars.

Kane and Toews have both had injuries, but not with the recurrence, severity or length of Crosby and Malkin's injuries.

Obviously there are other factors. Better drafting, etc.

But even with all the depth the Hawks have, if they lose the man games from Kane and Toews that the Pens have lost from Malkin and Crosby, then who knows what happens.

please discuss.

Click to read more...

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

Yes. They've constantly made all the right decisions, built around their bread and butter, made savvy moves regarding trading players/assets, and have reaped the rewards.

They've even gone through struggles of their own with regard to cap issues and the like, but they've come out stronger in the long run because their organization isn't operated by a bunch of incompetent idiots.

 

[Pete Gas]

Not ever have any injuries? That's tough to do

 

[Sideline]

The three biggest problems the Penguins have had were: losing Hossa, MAF not seeing a shrink sooner, and Disco Dumbass. Injuries have cost the Penguins 2 good years, but 2 out of 8 is pretty standard for a contact sport with a salary cap.

 

[penguins2946*]

There are plenty of things that the Hawks did that we didn't do. They were smart in free agency and got some excellent players, such as Hossa and Campbell. They made good trades, such as Ruutu for Laad and basically nothing of value for Sharp. They drafted well, with picking Kane, Toews, Seabrook, Ruutu, Terevainen and Hayes in the 1st round, Crawford, Bickell, Keith, Bolland and Saad in the 2nd round and Byfuglien, Brouwer, Hjalmarsson, Anderson, Shaw, Kruger, Smith, Wisniewski and Burrish in the 3rd round or later since 2000. They actually hired a good coach and not a stubborn motivator. They didn't overpay for older and declining role players. The list goes on.

 

[billybudd]

Personally partial towards the Kings model, myself. Strength at center, good goaltender, an elite PMD, another very good one and everyone else wearing the opposition down.

Sneaking suspicion the only reason it's the Hawks winning the West, instead of the Kings again, is that a player LA couldn't afford to lose (allegedly) threw his wife through a television.

Unfortunate thing is that Shero was building a team like that as recently as 2011, but he didn't draft the types of players who could backfill his free agent losses and the UFA pool dried up for those types of players.

 

[Human]

wish they were half of that...

 

[Zero Pucks]

It's amazing how many good players Chicago lost after their first cup win and kept on rolling. They lost Byfuglien, Ladd, Campbell, Neimi, Bolland, Brouwer, Versteeg, Madden. Who did we lose that was of any significance? Gonchar, Gurien, Fedotenko, Talbot and Scuderi? And we went the complete opposite direction as them. Chicago rebuilt on the fly while we kept on wasting assets and going for quick fixes.

 

[IcedCapp]

It's amazing how many good players Chicago lost after their first cup win and kept on rolling. They lost Byfuglien, Ladd, Campbell, Neimi, Bolland, Brouwer, Versteeg, Madden. Who did we lose that was of any significance? Gonchar, Gurien, Fedotenko, Talbot and Scuderi? And we went the complete opposite direction as them. Chicago rebuilt on the fly while we kept on wasting assets and going for quick fixes.

They rarely lose players for nothing. They don't say

"GOD, WE CAN'T SURVIVE WITHOUT THIS GUY, KEEP HIM UNTIL WE CAN'T PAY HIM"

Dustin Byfuglien - traded along with Brent Sopel, Ben Eager, and Akim Aliu for a 1st and 2nd round pick in 2010 draft, Marty Reasoner, Joey Crabb, and Jeremy Morin

Andrew Ladd - traded for a 2011 2nd round pick, and Ivan Vishnevskiy

Dave Bolland - 2nd, 4th and 5th round picks

Brian Campbell - Olesz and, you know, a ton of cap space

Troy Brouwer - 2011 1st round pick


all along the way they recouped value for players who were going to leave.

 

[PensBandwagonerNo272*]

The three biggest problems the Penguins have had were: losing Hossa, MAF not seeing a shrink sooner, and Disco Dumbass. Injuries have cost the Penguins 2 good years, but 2 out of 8 is pretty standard for a contact sport with a salary cap.

****ing nailed it

Imagine if Hossa stayed, if we had a better coach, and had Iggy play on Sid's wing, etc etc etc

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Ask yourself how many Cups the Hawks would have won if Hossa had signed with the Pens and timing had worked out so that the Pens could have signed Letang to an artificially low cap hit, a la Keith. And then there's the injury issue.

The Hawks have done a lot of things right, but they've also gotten some considerable breaks that we didn't.

 

[Til the End of Time]

Ask yourself how many Cups the Hawks would have won if Hossa had signed with the Pens and timing had worked out so that the Pens could have signed Letang to an artificially low cap hit, a la Keith. And then there's the injury issue.

The Hawks have done a lot of things right, but they've also gotten some considerable breaks that we didn't.

the pens had the opportunity to sign malkin to a cap circumventing contract just like keith but they did not do so.

 

[billybudd]

Having Keith at $5 million instead of the $8 or $10 million he could be making was definitely a big break that's mostly luck-related.

When Kane signed his first extension, he was mostly known for being a drunk...that he sorted that out and became a top 2 wing a few years later was another lucky break. In an alternate universe he may have gone the way of Brian Fogarty.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

They rarely lose players for nothing. They don't say

"GOD, WE CAN'T SURVIVE WITHOUT THIS GUY, KEEP HIM UNTIL WE CAN'T PAY HIM"

Dustin Byfuglien - traded along with Brent Sopel, Ben Eager, and Akim Aliu for a 1st and 2nd round pick in 2010 draft, Marty Reasoner, Joey Crabb, and Jeremy Morin

Andrew Ladd - traded for a 2011 2nd round pick, and Ivan Vishnevskiy

Dave Bolland - 2nd, 4th and 5th round picks

Brian Campbell - Olesz and, you know, a ton of cap space

Troy Brouwer - 2011 1st round pick


all along the way they recouped value for players who were going to leave.

I'm gonna look up who they drafted with those picks, and be very upset, aren't I?

 

[IcedCapp]

I'm gonna look up who they drafted with those picks, and be very upset, aren't I?

I honestly have no clue, but having so many picks (what was it, 4 in the first 45) allowed them to take a chance on Saad that year.

 

[Human]

Ask yourself how many Cups the Hawks would have won if Hossa had signed with the Pens and timing had worked out so that the Pens could have signed Letang to an artificially low cap hit, a la Keith. And then there's the injury issue.

The Hawks have done a lot of things right, but they've also gotten some considerable breaks that we didn't.

The Hawks are also not afraid to play their young guys... They play those guys in front of experienced over the hill vets actually...

 

[Le Magnifique 66]

I honestly have no clue, but having so many picks (what was it, 4 in the first 45) allowed them to take a chance on Saad that year.

And let's not forget they drafted Pirri and Hayes but had pretty much no roster spots for them and they traded Pirri away while Hayes didn't sign a contract and opted to sign as a UFA in NY.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

Byfuglien picks = Kevin Hayes (great pick), Justin Holl (bust)

Ladd pick = Adam Clendening

Bolland picks = Carl Dahlström, Fredrik Bergvik, Frederik Olofsson

Brouwer pick = Phillip Danault

Not a whole lot of studs, but it never hurt to have a ton of prospects.

 

[cassius]

Shero's drafting and questionable free agency signings is what sunk the team.

You take Toews or Kessell over Staal... totally different team.

You draft Saad.. or Forsberg.. totally different team.

You sign a winger for Malkin instead of sinking tons of money in overpaid stay-at-home d-men like Michaelek/Scuderi.

Just so many mistakes. Shero wanted to build Nashville 2.0.

 

[penguins2946*]

Shero's drafting and questionable free agency signings is what sunk the team.

You take Toews or Kessell over Staal... totally different team.

You draft Saad.. or Forsberg.. totally different team.

You sign a winger for Malkin instead of sinking tons of money in overpaid stay-at-home d-men like Michaelek/Scuderi.

Just so many mistakes. Shero wanted to build Nashville 2.0.

You're also assuming Toews develops the same exact way as he did with Chicago, which is a far from a guarantee. In hindsight, I would have picked Kessel easily, we had like no one in our wing prospect pool and we had 2 of the best young centers in the NHL. I think Shero just went with the CS final rankings and picked the highest ranked player left.

 

[Le Magnifique 66]

Byfuglien picks = Kevin Hayes (great pick), Justin Holl (bust)

Ladd pick = Adam Clendening

Bolland picks = Carl Dahlström, Fredrik Bergvik, Frederik Olofsson

Brouwer pick = Phillip Danault

Not a whole lot of studs, but it never hurt to have a ton of prospects.

They don't really have to be studs, we need to trade 2nd rounders + prospects and other rounds to get depth players. Hawks don't know which ones to play, and get to trade them and get picks back.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

I'm gonna look up who they drafted with those picks, and be very upset, aren't I?

Only if your a Hawk fan , So far the Hawks have very little to show from cap purge moves

2010 Cap moves

Byfuglien deal = Jeremy Morin + Keivn Hayes (1st round pick) + Justin Holl (2nd round pick)
- Only thing Hawks have to show from this deal is Hayes comp pick in 2015 2nd round as he refused to sign with Hawks

Ladd deal = Ivan Visnevskiy + Adam Clendening (2nd round pick)
- Only thing Hawks have to show from this is Swedish prospect Gustav Forsling who was acquired for Clendening this year

Versteeg deal = Viktor Stalberg + Chris Didomenico + Phillip Paradis
- Hawks have nothing from this trade within organization anymore

2011 Cap moves

Campbell deal = Rostislav Olesz
- Worked wonders as it cleared 7.1M burden off Hawks hands before new CBA prevented Olesz like deals from being buried

Brouwer deal = Phillip Danault (1st round pick)
- Looks promising with Danault potentially becoming NHL regular next year

2013 Cap moves

Frolik deal = John Hayden (3rd round pick) + Luke Johnson (5th round pick)
- Looks promising as both seem to be quality prospects playing in NCAA

Bolland deal = Carl Dahlstrom (2nd round pick) + Frederik Olofsson (4th round pick) + Robin Norell (4th round pick) + 141-Luc Snuggerud (5th round pick)
- Far too early to judge this deal ,, Hawks originally got 2nd + 4th + 4th but flipped one of the 4th's with a Hawks 5th rounder for higher 4th and 5th rounder in draft the following year

2014 Cap move

Leddy deal = Ville Pokka + TJ Brennan + Anders Nilsson

- Looks promising as Pokka had good 1st year in NA

2010 moves netted Hawks nothing outside of a few years of Stalberg. Stan seems to have improved in cap purge moves since but it was a really big lost chance how those assets were used in 2010

 

[IcedCapp]

what the Hawks attained from each specific draft pick from those moves isn't really the issue. The issue is that they continued to move out good-but-not-great/core players for assets which afforded them the opportunity to have so many assets that they could miss on a lot of picks and still have a continuous stream of talent to restock their NHL team

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

Holy ****, you have 118k posts. That's incredible.

Even if you guys didn't hit on the picks you got back, you freed up a ton of space cap-wise and roster-wise for young guys.

I know it didn't work out perfectly, but consider yourself lucky to follow a team that actually knows what the **** they're doing. You could have just traded a 23 year old stud defenseman Despres for a 31 year old never-was Ben Lovejoy. And then had to hear your front office and read the local sports media try and justify the move by saying Despres was nothing more than a 7th defenseman and a goon, while Lovejoy is a cream of the crop, phenomenally skating, rock-solid defender.

 

[Le Magnifique 66]

Holy ****, you have 118k posts. That's incredible.

Even if you guys didn't hit on the picks you got back, you freed up a ton of space cap-wise and roster-wise for young guys.

I know it didn't work out perfectly, but consider yourself lucky to follow a team that actually knows what the **** they're doing. You could have just traded a 23 year old stud defenseman Despres for a 31 year old never-was Ben Lovejoy. And then had to hear your front office and read the local sports media try and justify the move by saying Despres was nothing more than a 7th defenseman and a goon, while Lovejoy is a cream of the crop, phenomenally skating, rock-solid defender.

Well their hockey season is always September to mid June!!!!

Jokes aside, that's a ****ing **** load of posts and time being spent on here!!! Wife would divorce me