Anyone else surprised at the US record at World men's championship?

[MeHateHe]

Let's use the dissolution of the Soviet Union and the break-up of Czechoslovakia as the beginning of the "modern era" in world hockey, since that really changed the landscape of world hockey.

Country	Gold	Silver	Bronze	Total
Canada	8	6	1	15
Czechia	6	1	5	12
Sweden	5	6	7	18
Russia	5	3	5	13
Finland	3	8	3	14
Slovakia	1	2	1	4
Switzerland	0	2	0	2
US	0	0	6	6

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

I am one of those rare Canadians who follows this tournament regularly - have done so since the early 1980s. So I would have seen the US lose quarter or semifinal games with regularity in that time. (I will also note that I typically watch games with the sound off so I wouldn't have heard if commentators have mentioned this.) It's kind of stunning to see this written down, given that the US has been among the world powers in the sport since the mid 1990s, that they haven't won a semifinal game in the tournament's history.

Canada's attitude to the world men's tournament has been spotty, we can admit. While we typically send a good team to the tournament, it's rare that we don't hear of very good players refusing to participate despite being available. But the US record should be an embarrassment to US players. What will it take to change the attitude so the US starts sending teams capable of actually getting to the final?

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[BOS358]

I'm not sure that even if the USA got all the best players available to go that there would be much of a difference. There is a serious divide between the top tier American players (think Kane, Matthews, Eichel, etc.) and the guys who would be lower on the depth chart. Also, I'm not sure if the US has an elite goaltender that it could count on. Those two alone could make things very difficult.

 

[ORRFForever]

Long tournament
Best players don't go
North American players aren't fully invested
Big ice

Having said all that, they certainly have underperformed.

 

[MeHateHe]

I'm not sure that even if the USA got all the best players available to go that there would be much of a difference. There is a serious divide between the top tier American players (think Kane, Matthews, Eichel, etc.) and the guys who would be lower on the depth chart. Also, I'm not sure if the US has an elite goaltender that it could count on. Those two alone could make things very difficult.

Canada has won the tournament with one line of elite players and the remainder of the lineup filled with second- and third-line players. I'm not sure we've sent an elite goalie to the tournament in a long while - some of them have been solid goaltenders who played above their standing - 2016 was Cam Talbot and Calvin Pickard; 2015 was Mike Smith and Martin Jones. These are good- to very-good players but none would likely have been invited to join an Olympic team.

What the US has been doing is sending the best players they could get from the NHL and then filling out the roster with AHL guys, college players and European-based pros. That isn't a recipe for success.

 

[BOS358]

These are good- to very-good players but none would likely have been invited to join an Olympic team.

There's the rub. I'm not certain that the US even has enough of these to survive the ones unavailable due to NHL Playoffs, nursing injuries, or just turning it down. Don't forget that when the NHL shut down for the Olympics, the US failed to medal more often than not.

 

[Eye of Ra]

Slovakia only 1 gold is suprising for me. During 1993-2013 they where a powerhouse. They should had 1-2 more gold.

here is 2 full games vs russia and sweden from wc 2002 when slovakia won gold.

 

[ORRFForever]

Canada has won the tournament with one line of elite players and the remainder of the lineup filled with second- and third-line players.

Canada is Canada. Canada is exceptional at hockey - even if posters from other countries don't want to give us our due. Our players produce and come through in the clutch, even when it's a tournament we couldn't care less about.

 

[alko]

1998: Germany and the United States were relegated to the qualifiers for the 1999 IIHF World Championship.

Still im confident, they will win Gold in next decade.

 

[Lartsaman]

You are not the only one. I have wondered this for years. An what bothers me the most, is that they are allways considered stronger than Finland even they have shown NOTHING at all in those tournaments.

 

[OskarOskarius]

Slovakia only 1 gold is suprising for me. During 1993-2013 they where a powerhouse. They should had 1-2 more gold.

here is 2 full games vs russia and sweden from wc 2002 when slovakia won gold.

Bring back Czechoslovakia.

 

[JackSlater]

It's somewhat surprising for the recent years, not really so for the 90s and 2000s. USA didn't have all that much depth in the 90s and 2000s and it wouldn't compensate for USA being the country that seems to struggle the most to get players to attend. Style of players available at the time was also not a great fit for international hockey. USA has better players now and so it is more surprising. USA should win this tournament before long just on the back of generally sending decent teams in recent years. If USA had won a tournament or two over the span the OP talks about it also wouldn't have been all that surprising however.

 

[ORRFForever]

If I was an American, I wouldn't care.

As a Canadian, I'd happily trade the World Championship for the World Junior title.

 

[Czechboy]

If I was an American, I wouldn't care.

As a Canadian, I'd happily trade the World Championship for the World Junior title.

Can you name another sport where the fans are more into the Junior title than the senior event?

For example. I'm Czech and we just won the French Open GIRLS title (eg. junior) and I thought it was great. However, I don't think it means much unless that girl becomes a pro and starts winning there (note, we won the women's title too and doubles.lol).
I can't tell you who won the volleyball junior world championships. The basketball ones? The soccer ones (and I know they have a lot of big tourneys).

It's a hockey thing and mostly a Canadian hockey fan thing where the 2nd biggest title appears to be the junior one (after a best on best).

Not knocking, it's been like this forever but can you name another sports fanbase that is like this? I can't.

 

[ORRFForever]

Can you name another sport where the fans are more into the Junior title than the senior event?

For example. I'm Czech and we just won the French Open GIRLS title (eg. junior) and I thought it was great. However, I don't think it means much unless that girl becomes a pro and starts winning there (note, we won the women's title too and doubles.lol).
I can't tell you who won the volleyball junior world championships. The basketball ones? The soccer ones (and I know they have a lot of big tourneys).

It's a hockey thing and mostly a Canadian hockey fan thing where the 2nd biggest title appears to be the junior one (after a best on best).

Not knocking, it's been like this forever but can you name another sports fanbase that is like this? I can't.

No. No I can't.

It hurts more this year because Canada's junior team was the best team (on paper) in the tournament and losing was painful.

 

[Czechboy]

Bring back Czechoslovakia.

Hard NO!

Currently there is a big 5 and about 5 other nations that can annoy the big 5. So, roughly, 10 competitve countries with 5 being gold medal contenders.

You combine Czechs and Slovaks and you will still have a big 5 but now you'll only have 4 other competitive countries that can annoy the big 5. You just made the sport smaller. We need the exact opposite.. we need the Slovaks, Swiss, Czechs, Danes, Germans, Latvians and Belarus players to keep improving and make it a big 6 or big 7 or big 10.

Right now the Eurocup is happening and there are at least a dozen really good teams that could win it. Hockey has nothing like that. Making us smaller doesn't help.

 

[Czechboy]

I'll start with I cannot stand the 'didn't send our best players' argument. No one does. FTR.. the last few American rosters have had some really high end players including Kane and Matthews.

Here is the last roster they sent precovid in 2019

Kane and Eichel seems like a nice start for building a World Championship team, no?

Setting the World's aside.. last gold medal at any senior event for the US was 1996. That is shocking to me given how good they are at U18 and U20. Looking at the predicted best on best rosters, they are clearly a contender every single time. This is a phenomenal program with phenomenal players. I have no idea how they haven't won more golds (or medals). I literally have no criticism of the program.... I wish the Czechs would borrow their NDTP model to be honest.

 

[Sweetpotato]

I'm not sure that even if the USA got all the best players available to go that there would be much of a difference. There is a serious divide between the top tier American players (think Kane, Matthews, Eichel, etc.) and the guys who would be lower on the depth chart. Also, I'm not sure if the US has an elite goaltender that it could count on. Those two alone could make things very difficult.

Hellebuyck? Bishop?

 

[Czechboy]

No. No I can't.

It hurts more this year because Canada's junior team was the best team (on paper) in the tournament and losing was painful.

I blame HFboards for that!

so many posters talking about that 2005 team before the gold medals were handed out. Should be a thread ban kind of like saying 'shutout' before the game is over.lol

I've always felt the reason Canadian hockey fans (not all by any stretch) view the Jr's as number 2 is because of amazing marketing by TSN and that it's at Xmas time. That 6 gold medal run and constant whippings of weaker nations didn't hurt either.

 

[ORRFForever]

I blame HFboards for that!

so many posters talking about that 2005 team before the gold medals were handed out. Should be a thread ban kind of like saying 'shutout' before the game is over.lol

I've always felt the reason Canadian hockey fans (not all by any stretch) view the Jr's as number 2 is because of amazing marketing by TSN and that it's at Xmas time. That 6 gold medal run and constant whippings of weaker nations didn't hurt either.

There is a TON of pressure on the Canadian kids - it weighs them down.

Canadians love the World Juniors. It's at a perfect time : cold, while there's nothing to do during Christmas vacation. It's awesome.

 

[Urbanskog]

I've always felt the reason Canadian hockey fans (not all by any stretch) view the Jr's as number 2 is because of amazing marketing by TSN and that it's at Xmas time. That 6 gold medal run and constant whippings of weaker nations didn't hurt either.

Northern Americans in general have a weird obsession with college sports while those are a non-factor in Europe so that's certainly a factor too.

 

[MeHateHe]

I'll start with I cannot stand the 'didn't send our best players' argument. No one does. FTR.. the last few American rosters have had some really high end players including Kane and Matthews.

It isn't so much about sending the best available team, but that there are so many players who don't participate when available, in contrast to a lot of European countries. How many times has Ovechkin gone, or Malkin? A lot more than a lot of Canadian stars and no one over here really bats an eye about it. The US has it worse. Sure, a few stars have shown up on occasion, but it's pretty rare, and certainly less likely than Russians or Czechs going.

 

[Gold Standard]

I blame HFboards for that!

so many posters talking about that 2005 team before the gold medals were handed out. Should be a thread ban kind of like saying 'shutout' before the game is over.lol

I've always felt the reason Canadian hockey fans (not all by any stretch) view the Jr's as number 2 is because of amazing marketing by TSN and that it's at Xmas time. That 6 gold medal run and constant whippings of weaker nations didn't hurt either.

no, that's not it. but TSN has done an amazing job at marketing/promoting the tournament.

"junior" minor hockey tournaments at Christmas was a natural fit for us. growing up Christmas was tournament time. Credit to the IIHF for selecting Christmas time for U20 tournament. If they had opted for some other month in the calendar for the tournament I'm not sure it becomes what it became for us in Canada.

 

[Czechboy]

Northern Americans in general have a weird obsession with college sports while those are a non-factor in Europe so that's certainly a factor too.

Canadians don't really have an obsession with college sports though.

If you are in the NCAA you are going places
If you are in the CIAU you are starving student and doing it for love

Very different systems between Canada and US regarind college sports.

 

[Czechboy]

It isn't so much about sending the best available team, but that there are so many players who don't participate when available, in contrast to a lot of European countries. How many times has Ovechkin gone, or Malkin? A lot more than a lot of Canadian stars and no one over here really bats an eye about it. The US has it worse. Sure, a few stars have shown up on occasion, but it's pretty rare, and certainly less likely than Russians or Czechs going.

The Swedes have over 100 NHL players and I think 2 showed up.
The Finns have around 50 NHL players and 1 showed up
The Czechs are around 30 and 5 showed up
The Russians have over 50 NHL players and mabye 5 showed up

That's a fallacy. Even precovid.. the Finns didn't have an NHL player. The 2010 Czechs that won gold only had 3 players.

As far as Malkin and Ovechkin.. I'm not sure how many full tournaments they've played in. Usually flow in at the last minute.

However, Crosby, McDavid, Eichel, Matthews and Kane have all played at the World's in the last 5 tournaments and the only nations to send all NHLers are US and Canada.

I don't think you can look at the US and Canadian rosters from 2015 to 2019 (the last tourneys precovid) and say it is rare.. here is Canada's 2015 roster:

To be honest, I could've highlighted the whole thing but Crosby, Mack is a hell of a 1-2 to build around.

 

[Czechboy]

no, that's not it. but TSN has done an amazing job at marketing/promoting the tournament.

"junior" minor hockey tournaments at Christmas was a natural fit for us. growing up Christmas was tournament time. Credit to the IIHF for selecting Christmas time for U20 tournament. If they had opted for some other month in the calendar for the tournament I'm not sure it becomes what it became for us in Canada.

Now explain the Spengler..